Confu Singh

I saw them in person and they did apolgise and accept what they had done was wrong.

I think they should actually be congratulated for taking this step - only Guru ji Himself can forgive and they approached Him in His Darbar.

We should contrast this with the really dodgy people who have no shame and to this day flout the Khalsa Panth's Maryada such as those who run Mangat Hall.

I hope I have not offended anyone

Lots of people go to Tapoban forum

Unfortunately you might have noticed they did not allow any posts on the WiN R4G Noth America issue about disrespect of Guru ji saroop which was going to happen this weekend gone in Florida.

If the North American Sangat is not going to take a stand (especially those who claim to be Panthic), then who is?

There is a popular forum of a Canadian Gurdwara which is popular with a lot of UK youth (particularly AKJ). But altho they say they are panthic, they are blocking any posts about disrespect of Guru Ji - what is going on here?

Seems like there is a hidden agenda - strange thing is many youth at Raen Sabai are very interested in taking a stand against disrespect of Guru ji saroop but are not aware of what is going on. All forums have a role to play - just like Waheguroo networks and Sikh Sangat.

Its easy to talk about the sacrifices of the Shaheed Singhs and Singhnia who gave their lives for Guru ji but when it comes to helping the Sangat to organise and take a stand, they are being stabbed in the back by those who claim to follow 'Tat Gurmat Maryada'

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Veer Sher Panjabi is right...

Guru Nanak Dev ji asked for pen and paper with which they wrote out 'Ik Oankaar... Gurprasaadhi' around which He and Mata ji did Parkarma.

At the time of Guru Amar Das ji, some Gursikhs had there Anand Kaarj's performed around Anand Sahib bani (can't remember the names).

And it was at the time of Guru Ram Das ji when the Parkarma was performed around Lava Paath.

BTW:

Jyot was required as part of the Maryada during the evening to allow Akhand Paath to continue. A hidden Jyot was kept in case the main one was extinguished. Some people who were not aware of the rationale for the Jyots started to call the hidden Jyot an 'Akhand Jyot' and treating it as jyots in Hindu mandirs were.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

NOt just people who are Sarblohi keep 'bibek' - there are many who follow Guru ji's Hukam not to eat from non Amritdhari's...

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

The fact is that if Guru ji is printed with one particular meaning, there is nothing stopping the paathi reading in another meaning to it.

It is the knowledge and gian of the Paathi which is important in doing Paath.

If you do padched one way and print it like this in a saroop, then you are basically denying the possibility of any other padched for that tuk.

That is only the case if you do paath without thinking about it...

So is Guru ji not present when the saroop is in the form of pad ched? Of course, he is present - to state otherwise is...

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I feel that some of the Sangat here have incorrectly got swept along by this idea by that only a saroop of Guru ji in larridaar form is the true Guru.

Guru ji saroop when in pad ched form is no less the Guru than that in larridaar if it has been checked/corrected ('sodhai keethee'). Why do I say this?

Gurbani has a primary meaning ('mukh arth') and numerous inner/higher meanings ('antriv arth') i.e. a tuk may have a literal meaning and many spiritual meanings. If a person has separated out the words in accordance with one meaning, then that does not make it wrong. It is just as valid although it may not be the primary meaning.

The basis of the idea that only a larridaar saroop is Guru ji is that there is only one meaning to Gurbani. This is clearly false. A simple example - 'saabath suurat dastaar siraa...' here the word suurat can be taken to mean physical form or it can be taken to mean consciousness. Both are correct.

The idea that Gurbani has only one meaning has its origins in those who believe that Gurbani can be confined to one system of grammar - unfortunately this is not the case. There are many different systems of grammar used in Gurbani based upon whichever language is being referred to. In addition, there are some shabads where the rules of grammar, as some would expect to see it, have not been followed at all.

In addition, those people who are most vocal in saying that pad ched saroops of Guru ji are not Guru ji (i.e. people and admin on Tap

oban) are exactly those people who state that the physical form of the Panj Piare does not matter i.e. male or female it is the spirit or soul which is important. It seems hypocritical for them to advocate the principle that the spirit is more important than the form in one instance and not in the other.

Further they advocate adding sounds which are not written in Gurbani (adding the sounds 'sh', 'z', putting tippi on some words) and not pronouncing sounds which are (the short vowels found at the end of many words)! This is again hypocritical - who are they to say that they know better than Guru ji what letters should be added or taken away from Gurbani?

CS

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I have been told that there are only a few places left at the Miri Piri Camp.

If anybody wants further information or to apply, check out the site at:

www.miripiri.com

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Veero,

Open your history books - the jews ijn Palestine numbered a couple of hundred, maybe a few thousand all the way up to the early nineteen hundreds. The only ones who went there were those who really believed in the promised land. All the ones left behind in the Russian Empire, Germany, Astro-Hungary etc thought they were nutters and fanatics.

But what did they do?

They held an international Zionist conference in 1897 (I think). Most of the jews just laughed at the idea of a jewish state in the middle east - virtually no jews lived there at that time. However, some wealthy jews were persuaded to provide financial help although they wouldnt have dreamed of going to Palestine.

Slowly but surely, they bought bits of land from Arabs (not stole) and started there own communities. These were not religious jews but mostly idealistic young socialists and communists. They are the ones who sowed the seed of a state which now provides shelter any jew who needs it. The holy men didnt do anything.

The moral of the story is....

one step at a time....

if its seems a good idea, find a small island, preferably with very few inhabitants, and take it from there. Do the research, put forward a proposal and do Ardaas.

Remember the Khalsa will rule.. it wont be confined to one part of the world. Its the quality that counts.. why not start outside Panjab?

Dare to dream

Bhul chuk maaf karni

As regards,

Simran is remembering Waheguru 24/7, doing Kirtan is simran, as is katha, as is Naam simran, as is Muul Mantar simran, as is Guru Granth Sahib ji's paath (Sehaj and Akhand), as is Sukhmani Sahib paath.......

Who is telling you not to simr?????

Waheguru....

Admin Note: Confu Singh, so far up until this point you've shown yourself to be a clean debater. In this post you purposely tried to cause harm to the AKJ. (In words now edited out) Please be more careful of the words you use.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I am not fighting about anything. The point made by bhenji about doing Naam Simran has not been responded to. I was also making the point in relation to tuks.

As regards Hukamnama's - how could you actually read negativity into any Shabad? Guru Granth Sahib ji is about Prem Bhagti - its not going say 'STOP DOING THIS TO ME!' Guru ji assumes his Sikhs will treat him with the respect that is due.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

If its a question of showing utmost respect for Gurbani or not, then it should be discussed.

IF ITS A QUESTION OF PRINCIPLE - WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO DISCUSS AN ISSUE AND IF NECESSARY TO STATE THAT A PERSONS BEHAVIOUR IS NOT IN CONSONANCE WITH GURMAT!

By mixing and matching Gurbani tuks in Kirtan, a person is breaking apart the Angs of Guru Sahib - that is a valid point of view which I have heard. To take a tuk from one Shabad and put it with another can give a totally different message from that which Guru ji wanted in composing the original Shabad. Who are we to judge which tuks are suitable to be mixed with which? Lets leave that to Guru Maharaj!

BTW I do ask myself all day how much bani I am doing, what thoughst are wandering in mind whilst in the office and out and about, why certain thoughts arise whilst attempting to do Naam Simran.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Who is Navjot Singh?

I was just wondering due to his posts on certain topics. Any ideas anyone?

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Everybody seems to be patting themselves on the back for having supposedly established that Gurmantar should be uttered in the middle of a shabad. But...

'BraveKhalsa' said that it has been going on since the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji! It seems strange that the practice only started after Bhai Randhir Singh ji passed away. Bhai Randhir Singh ji did Akhand Kirtan without interruption of any sort (this is from Tapoban site).

And turning back to the question, if Guru ji wanted to put the Gurmantar into part of a shabad, He would have done so. Who are we to decide that we know better than Guruji, the order in which a shabad should be sung?

And what exactly is 'AKJ' style simran? Is this just fast simran on the vaja? If so, its not exclsuive to AKJ! and according to Tapoban, this wasn't even done by Bhai Randhir Singh!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

There is going to be Chardhi Kala Camp this Christmas in the UK.

The emphasis is going to be on living Sikhi and putting it into practice. I think everybody should try and make time (it shouldnt be too hard cos its from Tuesday evening 23 December through to Sunday 28 December). Check out the website at www.miripiri.com (I think its up and running now.

Hmmm... now the choice is between sitting at home doing nothing in the holidays or meeting up with other young Sikhs and taking our personal Sikhi forward.... hard choice that one!!!!

AND if you have got assignments, take a break, clear your mind, become refreshed, physically, mentally and spiritually!!!

Hope to see you there Sadh Sangat jio!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, the reason has already been mentioned, that one is your dastaar, and the other is a keski which always covers your hair whether or not you wear a dastaar, . i.e at home, or while sleeping.

Some like myself have a third keski around our kesh, protecting them before a bun is tied. This is all up to the individual.

It is essential to wear a keski, otherwise, when you take your dastaar off, your kesh are not covered at all. This is against many instructions, which clearly state, your kesh should be covered, when eating, sleeping, doing chores.

Most jathebandian insist on having a keski under the dastaar. The quote from taksaal is one example of this, eventhough the actyal maryada of taksaal does not mention the keski not being a kakaar line. This seems to be added later in translation by youth.

This raises the question when so many jathebandies state clearly in their maryadas that a keski should be worn, and hair should not by allowed to be open or plaited. Then why when they give Amrit, do they not implement this, and just go for numbers?

The ones who have keski as a kakaar, at least it is implemented. Why not the others?

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[font=GurbaniWebTh

ick]vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!![/font][/font]

Most jathebandian insist on having a keski under the dastaar. The quote from taksaal is one example of this, eventhough the actyal maryada of taksaal does not mention the keski not being a  kakaar line. This seems to be added later in translation by youth.

The Gurmukhi exposition of the Rehat Maryada by Sant Jarnail Singh ji states that keski is not a kakkaar.

It is not just on the translation by Bhai Harjinder Singh ji.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Is the Coventry program UK and Manchester Panchain?

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Why all these attacks on Kamalroop Singhs appearance? If he is doing anti Panthic parchaar, then this is one thing. To start taking the mick out of his appearance is out of order - would Guru Gobind Singh ji have sat in his Darbar and made nasty comments about Aurangzeb's dodgy goatee - I dont think so.

Why not discuss something positive or simply counter any Parchaar which you feel is against Sikhi - surely that is the best way forward. Maybe we should try and think about the silent youngsters who visit this site and what they will take away from it about how Sikhs handle criticism.

Just my thoughts on reading this thread. I am sorry if I have said anything wrong...

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Silently is AMAZING! Once you get going that feeling stays with you once you have actually 'stopped' the sitting down part. It gets in your head!

Khanda kharkay? 24/7 at the top of your lungs... Personally Im not sure about that.. In your mind, you betcha!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

AMg 375

Awsw mhlw 5 ]

kir ikrpw hir prgtI AwieAw ]

imil siqgur Dnu pUrw pwieAw ]1]

AYsw hir Dnu sMcIAY BweI ]

Bwih n jwlY jil nhI fUbY sMgu Coif kir kqhu n jweI ]1] rhwau ]

qoit n AwvY inKuit n jwie ]

Kwie Kric mnu rihAw AGwie ]2]

so scu swhu ijsu Gir hir Dnu sMcwxw ]

iesu Dn qy sBu jgu vrswxw ]3]

iqin hir Dnu pwieAw ijsu purb ilKy kw lhxw ]

jn nwnk AMiq vwr nwmu ghxw ]4]18]

The last line of this shabad states that the only 'gehna', that is jewellery/adornment that is of use when your life draws to an end is Naam. Hope this helps.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Why is it that we never see bibian doing Panj Piaray seva? I dont think I have heard of this in the UK at any Gurdwara or raen Sabai?

Just wondering...

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Whether 'keski' is a kakar or not, nobody has the right to criticise a bibi, regardless of her personal rehat for wearing a dastaar. She should be congratulated.

If her conduct is not that becoming of a Sikh, then we have an issue - but when has any action been ever taken against the tens of thousands of men out there who wear dastaar and even have daara who go out and commit bad deeds?

Also 'Khalistani' bhaji, what you said about Damdami Taksal does sound correct to my ears. Baba Thakur Singh ji and the Jatha were in the UK 2 weeks ago. I know that Baba himself has mentioned to a number members of the Jatha that their newly married Singhnia should wear Dastaar. Also, when Amrit di Daat bakhshi jandi, the Panj Piare definitely DO say that bibian shoud wear Dastaar if they can and at the very least their head should be covered 24/7.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Bhenji,

A version of this story was posted on one of the egroups a yera or two ago - either akj, boss, I cant remember.

Whether its true or not, its certainly inspirational - will tell my Singhni about it!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Has anybody got any historical evidence to back up the practice of saas giraas?

Everybody has been silent about this

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I am not sure if I understand this correctly.

It is alright to discuss all aspects of the Amrit Sanchaar including how Amrit is to be prepared, the actual Gurmantar itslef but not the specific method of saas giraas.

This doesn't appear to be logical, if my understanding is correct because:

The physical method of giving, receiving and saying Gurmantar is secret (saas giraas, dhuni etc) and thus is more important than all other aspects of Amrit Sanchaar including the Gurmantar itself. It is the Gurmantar given by Guru ji in the form of the Panj Piare which has the power, not one physical method of japping it.

Please could somebody explain further.

Daas