jagjit_waheguru

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

Pyare jio, this is a problem that every community is facing. For example in Bradford, many pakistani girls were going out with white and blacks boys, after seeing how pakistani men behave with girls of every community. As a result, they got a £6 million pound grant to build an all girls Islamic school in Bradford.

Similarly, The Jewish community has had this problem for years. They have specifically set up programmes educating young jews about the Holcaust and their history, to create pride in them.

Sikhs need to set up similar projects to create pride aswell.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, do not be niave when approaching the media. Many can spin it against you. It is very important which papers and media you approach, and how you do it.

I know Gursikhs who know media very well. One used to work in BBC, and another is a sikh activist who regularly writes and informs the media.

PM me, and I will give you their details.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.S. Also if you have facts, times, names, and have a diary of events. Then you can actualy sue the army. So do not rush into anything, have a strategy and timescale of how to do it.

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, Bhagat Puran Singh is a very under-rated Gursikh. He was years beyond his time. Not only did he have many Gursikh virtues of seva, simran and sacrifice, but also his seva for those with learning disabilities, disabled, and mentally infirm. He used healing via spiritual development, concepts which are only now being touted by the British Government.

Further he wrote extensively about Gurmat, social and environmental issues. He predicted the modern lack of Sikhi spirit in sikh women in his book asking all bibian to wear keskis and gatras on the outside.

He wrote about the onset of environmental problems in Punjab, covering acid rain, the water issue, and also the complete disregard in Punjab of looking after the soil, as they try and get more crops out the ground as quickly as possible. He wrote extensively about the problems that will come from cutting trees down in Punjab as it becomes more and more agriculturised.

Bhagat Puran singh is a great example of a Gursikh, who was a humanitarian, an intellectual, and an environmentalist.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

Pyare jio, Bhai Rama Singh ji is not just a name to us, we have spent years with him. I spoke to him in depth about many subjects. He only followed gurbani not any human. He did seva in the Panj Pyares, he told others about naam jugti as part of that seva.

Bhai sahibs book is very comprehensive.

So please, instead of just pushing rumours and misrepresentations as always, try and do something constructive for sikhi.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, it on Sky news aswell now.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13475163,00.html

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, can you get a scan of page 7 aswell.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, it gets worse. i just started a thread on what the daily express has done.

Repeat post below

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

Pyare jio, on the way to work this morning I saw a pictire of a kirpan on the front page of the Daily Express. The Daily Express has in recent years taken the mantle from the Daily Mail, as the most right-wing daily newspaper, with often stories against Muslims, questioning political correctness. This is their favourite subject, with immigration.

Todays headline is "Now the Cross is Banned". I would have cut and paste it, but the newspaper website does not allow that function. But it can be seen on the top corner of their website.

http://www.express.co.uk/index.html#

It is about a young girl called Sam Morris, who has been banned from wearing a crucifix to her local Sinfin Community School in Derby. The paper claims the situation is "crazy" compared to the fact that male Sikhs are allowed to wear Kirpans to the same school. Then it has a picture of a large 2-3ft kirpan. The front page is very sensationalist to outrage as much as possible. The article is continued on page 7 of the paper, with another picture of the necklace and the big kirpan next to it.

The article has numerous quotes from Christian organisations and Derby Council. It also has two line quotes from harmander Singh and Bhupinder Singh for Sikhs.

I have complete sympathy for the girl, but the manner is which the kirpan is being used is wrong. Further the sensationalist way in which it is depicted with only create alarm in parents of children who are ignorant of Sikhs.

It is typical tabloid article designed to cause outrage, sell newspapers, and care little about its affects and aftermath.

Call all Sikhs write to the editor and comaplin at the following

expressletters@express.co.uk

Please write sensible letters. Do not swear and threaten. Otherwise this right-wing paper that loves to denigrate minorities, will just carry the headline, -"Sikh extremists threaten editor". So please write in an articulate that most sikhs use everyday. Below is the email I sent - if you need a guide.

Please do not cut and paste and send, please write in your own words.

...........

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing about your depiction of the kirpan on your front page article, "Now the Cross is Banned".

I have complete sympathy with Sam Morris and her case to wear her cross, and I have often wondered why Christians are not more forthright in their expression of religion. I have never come across any ethnic minority that is offended by other religions, or their festivals, in the manner of stories that today frequent newspapers.

However the manner in which you have used the Sikh kirpan is highly irresponsible. Young sikhs do face a hard time in Schools, especially due to their distinct appearance. Bullying and name-calling is common. It is not that many years since a talented young sikh boy called Vijay Singh in Manchester was driven to suicide to escape the bullying. Today we see children helplines busy dealing with these problems. I personally I think your article will just cause disafffection in youth, and create unneccessary alarm in parents of all school children.

Your pictures of the kirpans are larger size, probably a 2 or 3 foot one, which is nothing like a small 5 inch kirpan which baptised Sikhs wear. I feel this depiction will just create alarm in those who are ignorant of Sikhism. Especially in todays climate wear even a pencil sharpener is a dangerous weapon. I had expected better from a national daily newspaper.

Sikh organisations have spent many years consulted with the department of Edication, Health and Safety groups to ensure the small kirpan is acceptable and is represented in the correct manner.

Young baptised sikhs, who are male and female, (you just mentioned males) are highly disciplined in conduct and meditation, which is why you do not get incidents with use of the kirpan. They are incomparable to the "hoody culture" and hoodlums who prey on kids in schools, with knives.

Your choice to wage war on political correctness is your perogative, but bringing Sikhs into it is highly irresponsible. This kind of behaviour and sensationalistic journalism only creates more tension in communities, rather than educates.

Sikhs are an integral part of Modern Britian. The Audit Office recognises them as the most successful ethnic group, and with over 85,000 Sikh giving their lives in World Wars, I would hope they are accepted as such. Very few ethnic groups have made such a contribution to Britian.

Your Sincerely,

Mr Jagjit Singh,

Horbury,

West Yorkshire.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

Pyare jio, on the way to work this morning I saw a pictire of a kirpan on the front page of the Daily Express. The Daily Express has in recent years taken the mantle from the Daily Mail, as the most right-wing daily newspaper, with often stories against Muslims, questioning political correctness. This is their favourite subject, with immigration.

Todays headline is "Now the Cross is Banned". I would have cut and paste it, but the newspaper website does not allow that function. But it can be seen on the top corner of their website.

http://www.express.co.uk/index.html#

It is about a young girl called Sam Morris, who has been banned from wearing a crucifix to her local Sinfin Community School in Derby. The paper claims the situation is "crazy" compared to the fact that male Sikhs are allowed to wear Kirpans to the same school. Then it has a picture of a large 2-3ft kirpan. The front page is very sensationalist to outrage as much as possible. The article is continued on page 7 of the paper, with another picture of the necklace and the big kirpan next to it.

The article has numerous quotes from Christian organisations and Derby Council. It also has two line quotes from harmander Singh and Bhupinder Singh for Sikhs.

I have complete sympathy for the girl, but the manner is which the kirpan is being used is wrong. Further the sensationalist way in which it is depicted with only create alarm in parents of children who are ignorant of Sikhs.

It is typical tabloid article designed to cause outrage, sell newspapers, and care little about its affects and aftermath.

Call all Sikhs write to the editor and comaplin at the following

expressletters@express.co.uk

Please write sensible letters. Do not swear and threaten. Otherwise this right-wing paper that loves to denigrate minorities, will just carry the headline, -"Sikh extremists threaten editor". So please write in an articulate that most sikhs use everyday. Below is the email I sent - if you need a guide.

Please do not cut and paste and send, please write in your own words.

...........

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing about your depiction of the kirpan on your front page article, "Now the Cross is Banned".

I have complete sympathy with Sam Morris and her case to wear her cross, and I have often wondered why Christians are not more forthright in their expression of religion. I have never come across any ethnic minority that is offended by other religions, or their festivals, in the manner of stories that today frequent newspapers.

However the manner in which you have used the Sikh kirpan is highly irresponsible. Young sikhs do face a hard time in Schools, especially due to their distinct appearance. Bullying and name-calling is common. It is not that many years since a talented young sikh boy called Vijay Singh in Manchester was driven to suicide to escape the bullying. Today we see children helplines busy dealing with these problems. I personally I think your article will just cause disafffection in youth, and create unneccessary alarm in parents of all school children.

Your pictures of the kirpans are larger size, probably a 2 or 3 foot one, which is nothing like a small 5 inch kirpan which baptised Sikhs wear. I feel this depiction will just create alarm in those who are ignorant of Sikhism. Especially in todays climate wear even a pencil sharpener is a dangerous weapon. I had expected better from a national daily newspaper.

Sikh organisations have spent many years consulted with the department of Edication, Health and Safety groups to ensure the small kirpan is acceptable and is represented in the correct manner.

Young baptised sikhs, who are male and female, (you just mentioned males) are highly disciplined in conduct and meditation, which is why you do not get incidents with use of the kirpan. They are incomparable to the "hoody culture" and hoodlums who prey on kids in schools, with knives.

Your choice to wage war on political correctness is your perogative, but bringing Sikhs into it is highly irresponsible. This kind of behaviour and sensationalistic journalism only creates more tension in communities, rather than educates.

Sikhs are an integral part of Modern Britian. The Audit Office recognises them as the most successful ethnic group, and with over 85,000 Sikh giving their lives in World Wars, I would hope they are accepted as such. Very few ethnic groups have made such a contribution to Britian.

Your Sincerely,

Mr Jagjit Singh,

Horbury,

West Yorkshire.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, no doubt the sangat is essential in any jeevan, especially the Rangley sajjann the sangat. They inspire and teach us.

But my impression from veer ji post, he can correct me if I am wrong, is that this person is some Spiritual teacher, who these Gursikhs went to. I personally doubt this, because personally knowing these Gursikhs, they always told me to find every answer in Gurbani. So I assume this is exactly what they believe.

Plus these names have not been mentioned by them. Maybe I am wrong, and veer ji could shed more light on what actual seva they have done, rather than just drop names.

On a more theoretical point, Guru ji mentions that previous prophets, started having thier names praised, rather than Akaal Purakhs. Guru Shaibaan were against this, and said no body needs to know their name, and just have direct relationship with God. That is why when they wrote bani, they only name mentioned is Nanak. This is there humilty, they do not mention themselves and give everything in the House of Nanak.

Hence there is no need for a middle man, such as Jesus, who is claimed to be the Son of God. So with us, Gursikhs, we have no middle man, Gursikhs and Sangat gives us Aasra, Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib is our guide and spiritual teacher and our relationship is with Akaaal.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, I once again would disagree. I do not wish to disagree with Veer Namstang all the time, but I have to accept possibly our viewpoints are quite polarised.

Take away all your emtional attachment, whether pro sant or anti-sant. Just think about what is at the heart of the matter. Who is my Guru?

The Guru khalsa Panth has already decided it, but if you do not agree, then think about what you are saying. Is any poem by any sant equivalent to japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, etc?

No matter how great a sant, would any of them consider themselves higher or equivalent to the Bhagats? We have to accept alot of peoms by these Great bhagats was rejected. For some Bhagats, Guru Ji only accepted one Shabad. Many of them had whole granths.

Further at what point would you draw the line. What if the dahaarnas contradicts Gurbani? Who decides who is a sant and who is not?

Is there not enough Gurbani, Vaars, Rehitnamas for us to do parchaar? Why do we need more? Why is learning Bani so difficult for some people?

Lastly the most important question - How are any of you going to put PARAAS KALA into these dharnas?

So please think with logic, and not because you like a Sant and want to defend them.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.s. Prithvi Chand was against sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji, you seemed to have made assumption based on a wrong understanding of history.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, you seem to be name dropping like there is no tomorrow. But very few people seem to know the Seva singh and Ajit singh that you mention. Forgive me if I am wrong, but Bhai Rama Singh never mentioned this person, in his book, or personally.

Plus I know all Giani Amolak Singh, Bhai jeevan Singh and Bhai rama Singh are all adamant that your get Naam, and everything else from Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, i.e. Gurbani, and Panj Pyare, not any person. So your posts seem a bit strange.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, you seem to be name dropping like there is no tomorrow. But very few people seem to know the Seva singh and Ajit singh that you mention. Forgive me if I am wrong, but Bhai Rama Singh never mentioned this person, in his book, or personally.

Plus I know all Giani Amolak Singh, Bhai jeevan Singh and Bhai rama Singh are all adamant that your get Naam, and everything else from Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, i.e. Gurbani, and Panj Pyare, not any person. So your posts seem a bit strange.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, you seem to be name dropping like there is no tomorrow. But very few people seem to know the Seva singh and Ajit singh that you mention. Forgive me if I am wrong, but Bhai Rama Singh never mentioned this person, in his book, or personally.

Plus I know all Giani Amolak Singh, Bhai jeevan Singh and Bhai rama Singh are all adamant that your get Naam, and everything else from Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, i.e. Gurbani, and Panj Pyare, not any person. So your posts seem a bit strange.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, logically it would be the birthplace of Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji. Hence Nanakana sahib.

However some could also argue according to Aarti, the whole world is the house of Guru, because Naam resonates in every part of it.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, you seem to be name dropping like there is no tomorrow. But very few people seem to know the Seva singh and Ajit singh that you mention. Forgive me if I am wrong, but Bhai Rama Singh never mentioned this person, in his book, or personally.

Plus I know all Giani Amolak Singh, Bhai jeevan Singh and Bhai rama Singh are all adamant that your get Naam, and everything else from Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, i.e. Gurbani, and Panj Pyare, not any person. So your posts seem a bit strange.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, at no point have I made any comment about baba Nihal Singh. I am well aware of who he is, his closeness to Sant ji, his seva protecting Singhs after 84, and the stories of when he has was young. If I was not, or had hatred towards nihangs I would not put him in the videos that I have made. I see him as a proper example of a nihang.

My point is, when I went to delhi, I saw Harvinder Singh advocate, some delhi jatha Singh with Bhai gurbachan Singh tel wale, Bhai inderjit Singh of the old Punjab and Singh Bank and many other youths, from various groups doing seva. But still that was not enough. Sikhs help everyone, but sometimes do forget about themselves. My point had nothing to do with nihangs, monica bedi, whether she was sikh or not, or baba nihal singh and his jatha, or nihangs. That is all of you going at tangents.

Last week, a gupt singh I know who is a social worker has just come back from delhi, and we were talking about the amount of mental health illness there, as that is my field. I am one a growing number of young people in Uk, who believe that spirituality should be part of mental health solution that is offered, hopefully it in UK will be part of government policy. Similarly in India, it would be nice if Sikhs, aswell as always helping non-sikh, like they do, that they helped Sikhs aswell.

Probably my fault, I should make my posts clearer in the future.

waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Jagjit Singh Jee - you should find out more about Baba Nihal Singh Jee before questioning what he has done for the Panth or for 1984 Delhi Riot victims. Sant Jarnail Singh Jee mentions them in his tapes as one of the Panthic Sevadaars that gave a lot of seva in the Morcha, and continued to help afterwards.

Read the link and see what it says beside the year 1964: http://allaboutsikhs.com/history/his0522.htm

Also, the reason why they probably are helping out this Bibi is because Baba Jee have a Dera in the village Chabbewal. This is the Asthaan where SatGuru Siri Har Rai Sahib Jee stayed. Baba Jee have recently constructed a school for the poor people of this area, where they are educated for their worldly and Gurmat teachings.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

137235[/snapback]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, the center of the Christian world is not Rome, but the middle east in places like jerusalem. Rome is just the center of the catholic world, and where the Pope resides.

I do not think Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev Ji in his physical roop travelled as far as Rome, but he definately visited the centers of all the main religions. The religions being Buddhism, Hindusim, Islam, Christianity and Judiasm. All the major religions of the world originated from either India or the Middle East.

Guru ji gives answers and reflections to all of these in his bani.

As far as seeing beyound our physical roop, not only our Guru sahibaan, but even Gursikhs and non-Gusrikhs, i.e. sufi sants and other spirtualists have done this. It is not something that is particularly hard.

sahib Siri Guru nanak dev ji is one with akaal, he is in all 4 Yugs, not just Kalyug. It is just his physical roop appears in kalyug.

Every answer is in gurbani.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, It is good that the Uk Gursikhs from birmingham and coventry who did this seva, did not destroy the heritage in the process. From the accounts from those who recently went on the Yatra, they have preserved the cells in which the Singhnians were kept.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I am glad you have had a change of mind. Your tone from your first post, which was of one where you talked to and asked for it apologies from shaheeds, to know where you realise what a shaheed is. Please go back now and read your first post, and maybe you will see why we were not happy with it.

Not just for you, but for all of our benefit, we must understand what a Shaheed is? A shaheed is only a Shaheed is he is accepted as one by the Dharam raaj. that is only decided by his sincereity, actions, thoughts and seva. Shaheed is a much misused word. Punjab police uses it for their villanous officers, Muslims uses for suicide bombers who kill mere innocents in what is nothing more than a hate crime, and even nespapers editors use it for their members who may have just been killed because of personal or business dealings.

Real Shaheeds are "virley" (a few). They are those who become astral spirits on the behest on Akaal purkh. Possibly even many we percieve as Shaheeds may not be, only Akaal knows. But we must remeber the value of these words and what they stand for.

Pyare jio, Veer ji, everyone has a problem with any imposters, not just you. Which why any imposter will never be conmsidered a shaheed. It will be good for you to research the jeevans of many Shaheed Gursikhs. I will try and collate some for you aswell.

Once again veer ji, you have ignored my questions and posts. Before you do anything, please respond to my last post on the first thread about Guru Kian sakkian. I have posted many questions on there, which are at the heart of your numerous sampardaya theories, where as I believe on One Guru, One Guru Granth sahib and One Guru Khalsa Panth.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Which is why i humbly ask you. You may have made a mistake this time, but in future please think carefully before you write, and criticize, and talk nonsense of others.

I have made no mistakes in this thread. you should show this guilt trips game card to someone one else.

I have full faith in shaheeds (ie- sant jarnail singh bhindranwale, bhai sahib bhai fauja singh ji and others) who have not killed any innocent and fought against oppressors of the panth.. My head namaskar to their shaheediya's. Hope our young generation take the inspiration from them.

However, I have a huge problem with imposters who killed innocent people in their course of their chardi-kalah mission and i will question their creditblity of being shaheeds at the first place all my life whenever this topic of matyrdom comes in.

I ll try to research each panth/jatha declared shaheeds and their lifes and their acts and if such panthic/jatha declared "shaheeds" have killed any innocent people while carrying "dangerous operations" against GOI, i ll let the sangat know with the references. In this course of this research, i ll also take inspiration from their life just to let you know, so i won't be frantically lookin for scapegoats to put all the blame.

May be you should direct me with sources in this research.

Hopefully i made myself clear.

137215[/snapback]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, can you ask them if they will extend the same help to the victims of the Delhi riots. many of the next generation of boys are into doing drugs, because they have no father figures to guide them. The widows work all hours just to put food on the table, and there are stories that some of the widows and their daughters are having to work as prostitutes to survive.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, I will answer you one point to me. Please have the common courtesy to answer the many points in both threads that I put to you, but you keep ignoring.

You asked -

Bhai Jagjit Singh, please provide example from history from guru's time where guru's or his sikhs in guru's time have used "unjustified force" against oppressors which have killed innocent people.

This is my whole point veer ji, I do not fundamnetally believe the Singhs never killed anyone with unjustifiable force, neither at the times of the Guru Sahibaan or today. Bhai Sukhdev Singh would not have protected the hindu shopkeeper, if afterwards he was going to kill hindus. Sant Jarnial Singh would not get praises from Hindus, if he was a hindu killer. Bhai fauja Singh would not have gone to jail, if he had not helped the hindu woman raped by punjab police.

In History, Banda Singh Bhahdhur has many good Singhs with him, but was he ransacked Sirhand, looting and pillaging occured. That was not by his Singhs, but by criminals, who took advantage of the situation. Should he have to apologise for that?

Veer ji, you seem very lacking in knowledge of history of this recent period. It has not gone past my notice, that from 25 years of urban warfare where hundreds of thousands were killed, that you have failed to present any atrocity done by a Singh?

The ones you have mentioned, are you not aware that black cats killed police, as Veer bikramjit has mentioned. Where you not aware that senior police also had good police officers and their families killed, to motivate other officers to not be sympathetic to Singhs, but instead make them more cruel. This was one of KPS gill policies after 1988, because Singhs were controlling Punjab, and pUnajb police were being sympathetic to them. Are you not aware Police even killed other police just to claim the bounties of money, which others had earned.

In Uk, we have groups like Sikh Human Right by Dr Rai, or Khalsa Human rights in Leicester. I am sure in Toronto, you will have a similar group. Go and read the reports and see the pictures they have. You will see pictures of punjab police drunk and laughing while beheading sikhs, and throwing the heads at each other. You read stories of sikh women being traded between officers from numerous areas for their physical pleasures, before they are liquidated, you will read stories of children as young as 5 in high security prisons under TADA because they witnessed Operation Blustar, You will see a picture of a 6 month child who was tied to a block of ice and killed as part of torture to the parents, you will read of Singhs hung upside down in wells for days, Singhs with broken limbs in birdcages, Sikh women who had their breats cut off and forced to eat them, amritdharis forced to drink urine after many weeks with no water and food, and this is their only means of survival, chemicals injected into Sikhs and singhnia, which made them blind, and tears their skin and its slowly internal combusts the body.

Veer I took the time to read these. I also took Gursikhs to London, who were examined for torture. I did the seva of an interpretor. I beg that no sikh sees the things that I read and saw.

Which is why i humbly ask you. You may have made a mistake this time, but in future please think carefully before you write, and criticize, and talk nonsense of others.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

pyare jio, separate from everything above. I remember seeing a picture of a Chinese Sikh, who was Amritdhari. I have his picture at home, I will try and find it. He is on the internet. I think his name was lauren Singh.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, read your history. The most influential people, the ones who did the most, and the ones who are remembered hundreds of years later, were those who had jeevans.

A jeevan is the most important thing a Sikh has. When Guru Maharaj eternally has his hand on your head, you will become an orator and leader like Sant Jarnail Singh, a writer like Bhai Vir Singh, a Gursikhi theologist and keertani like Bhai sahib Randhir Singh, a general like Bhai Sukhdev Singh babbar, a beloved like Bhai Rama Singh ji, an intellectual like Sirdar kapur Singh and bhai Joginder Singh talwara.

All the virtues and kusshian are in Naam. Concentrate on building your jeevan, as you look at your history you will see, they all had naam as the common denominator. Not just in Naam jaapn, but also concentrate on the simple things like joorian de seva, speak softly, no ninda, no hugli, sincerity in everything that you think and do. Analyse your every action to see there is no lust, anger, greed, attachment and ego, but only naam, pyaar and humility.

You will realise that you have jaaped enough Naam, when "everywhere you look all you will see is Gurmukhs in everyone, and if they are not, by having darshan of you, they will become Gurmukhs. "

Then veer ji, you do not do seva, but seva will come from Akaaal to you.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer sinister.

I did post this to you before, but you may have missed it in your many replies.

Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji was not influenced by anyone apart from Akal purkh. To understand a persons influences, you have to analyse their writings.

From this we can see various shabads:-

"Dhur Ki bani Aee" , "jasse man aave kasam ki bani", and many others. Basically the complete idealogy of Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji came from Akaal.

I welcome you to show me anything that you think contradicts my statement.

Please refer to Siddh Gost and many other banis of sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji to understand that there is no collage of theologies, but a basic and raw truth, which is from all 4 Yugs.

If your Gurmukhi understanding is not good then I can send you a translation of Siddh Gost.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, namstang, I have made every attempt to answer all your points. Much to detriment of my sehaj path, I have to admit. But like I said, I hold Shahheeds as very special.

Whether you are a khalistani or not, purely from your heart and love for the Panth. I said this before. It makes no difference to the movemnt. no matter what its state.

If you think I have not answered our points "WORD BY WORD", then please list your questions. I sincerely considered that I did, from what I have read on the thread. Forgive me, and I will make every attempt to answer every point.

Equally I humbly ask you to answer all my points, which you have always avioded. The simple one being name an innocent killed by any Prominent Singh? Name a hindu woman raped by a Singh? Name a riot done by Singhs? name a genocide done by Singh? name a false encounter done by Singhs? name a mass grave done by Singhs?

Even your own special subject of smapradayas. I gave you a long list of questions in the last thread asking you specific questions about Guru Kian Sakkaian. I can easily prove these sampardayas were actually rejected by Guru ji themselves at there own times, let alone rejected when the Panth accepted the Singh sabha Movement and rejected them samparadays and the onslaught on Chritsian and Arya Samaj movements.

I am happy to debate all with you veer ji. But as I said before do the debate with sincerity and with facts. So please start another thread if you wish, but answer start by answering my post about Guru Kian saakain?

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh