Hari

Just so people know, the word in the sentence:

Birth Attis was born of the ??? Nana on December 25th.

is v-i-r-g-i-n.

I really don't know why that's considered profane, because it's not a profanity.

Jesus is a mythical figure.The 10 Kings were real historical people, not mythical miracle-makers.

The story of Jesus is to be understood esoterically, it is like they say in Panjabi "gupt".That's just how spiritual traditions in those days liked to impart hidden knowledge.Because people in those days just didn't have Buddhi to understand, only a select few had bakshish of Buddhi to understand.

That is why still today, these so called "Christians" still take the Biblical teachings literally.When in fact they are metaphorical teachings.

Jesus dying on the cross, is the death of false ego.And the resurrection is the awakening of the soul to it's true immortal (Amrit) nature.The story of Jesus is a facsimile of earlier mythical God-men who died and came back to life also.

Check out http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

Source: http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_ch...ists_attis.html

Attis 500 BC - a dying, resurrected savior

Was Jesus new?  Was Jesus unique?  Lets talk about the Pagan godman Attis

Phrygia (aka Anatolia = modern Turkey)

Birth Attis was born of the <admin-profanity filter activated> Nana on December 25th. He was both the Father and the Divine Son.

Attis' worshipers at a sacramental meal of bread and win

e. The wine represented the God's blood; the bread became the body of the savoir.

They were baptized in this way: a bull was placed over a grating, the devotee stood under the grating. The bull was stabbed with a consecrated spear. "It's hot reeking blood poured in torrents through the apertures and was received with devout eagerness by the worshiper...who had been born again to eternal life and had washed away his sins in the blood of the bull." [for more see Frazer, Attis, chapter 1]Called "the Good Sheppard," the "Most High God," the "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior."

[in Rome the new birth and the remission of sins by shedding of bull's blood took place on what is now Vatican Hill, in our days the site of the great basilica of St. Peter's]

The story of Jesus mimics that of previous mythical god-men.Did you that the mythical Dionysus was also crucified at the end of his story?More than a thousand years before the Jesus story. :T:

Nope, i just believe in "Manas kee jaat sabh ekay pachhaanbo". and if u already knew what this site was going to reply then why did u say

Understand now??Or is it too hard for you?

So you don't believe in learning about Sikh history?That's why I posted this message.For people who are genuinely interested in Sikh history.

Obviously there are some who couldn't care...

SachKhand(i) in Japji means 'in SachKhand'.

in MahanKosh Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha says SachKhand is:

1. Satye Lok [True People?]

2. Nirvaan

3. Avinaashi Mandal

so these words are probably from Hindu/Buddist thoughts...and therefore i think also other then Sikhs believed in SachKhand. not sure...

Sach = true, truth, real

Khand = place, country, realm, world (aswell as numerous other meanings, please look under Khand in Mahan Kosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha)

Sachkhand = True-Realm or Realm of Truth

Let's look at Satya-lok mentioned by Deep Singh Ji.Satyalok is mentioned in many Indian scriptures like Veda and Srimad Bhagvad Gita.Satyalok is obviously Sanskrit.

Satya = true, truth, real

Lok = place, country, realm, world

Satya-lok = True-Realm or Realm of Truth

The words Sachkhand and Satyalok philologically mean the same thing.Go figure yourself.Also I'd like to add that Bhai Kahn Singh Ji's meaning given for Sachkhand is 100% accurate.

Learn Panjabi, learn to read Gurbani.And learning a little Sanskrit won't do any harm either, in fact it will help you a lot.

Teri marzi...

You can call it whatever you want, but the bottom line is, it divides people, Misles,CAste,Biradri watever.

Khalsa is the only pure alliance, if u want to call it that.

If you are anything else beside SINGH or KAUR then you are not a sikh. :T:

Your reply was not a surprise.I knew this site would give such a reply.

Your not going to even read the highly acclaimed article by Sardar Sunder Singh Ramgarhia are you?

No, I didn't think so.

Gurdwaras based on caste! how silly is this! because our religion was based on a casteless society!!!! and we have ramgharia. rada sawami, Namdharis, ravi dass, NAKLI nirinkaris as gurdwara's?? what the?????? are people losing their minds who actually follow these ???

The above is from the "Pass this on" thread.Why do you people still think that Ramgrahia Misl is a caste??Why are you so lacking in the intelligence department?Again and again I see poeple accusing Ramgarhia Misl of being a jaat.Now, I am sick and tired of this.

If you want to know what Ramgarhia Misl is then go here:

http://<banned site filter activated>/postgurus/R...m%20Sardars.htm

That is if you want to know.Some of you I reckon would still want to wallow in your utter ignorance of Sikh history.

Did you know that in the Ramgarhia Misl you get: Tarkhan, Jatt, Lohar, Khatri jaat?

Misl = alliance/confederacy

It is from the first decade of the eighteenth century that we take up the thread of our narrative. Guru Gobind Singh having established the Brotherhood of Lions (the Singhs) had gone back to Heaven leaving

the infant Khalsa surrounded by blood - thirsty foes. He had promised to lend a helping and guiding hand from above. But the helpless children of the faith, seeing no visible hand to support them, trusted all their welfare to the leadership of Banda Singh. Upon this great leader and warrior the Guru had bestowed his blessings, and had received in return many sacred pledges, Banda Singh promising to abide by the Guru's injunctions. He proved a good nurse to the young Lion - Cubs and avenged the murder of the two younger sons of the Guru who were mercilessly killed at Sirhind by the tyrant Mughal (Nawab Wazir Khan). The infant Khalsa soon grew to boyhood and learnt the use of its limbs. It was at this time that the following twelve Misls (confederacies) were formed.

(1) First and the greatest the Bhangi Misl ruled over a vast tract, the revenues of which were a little over a crore of Rupees. The Misl had 12,000 horsemen.

(2) The Ramgarhia Misl, exercised absolute sway over territories the maximum revenue of which was between four and five millions of Rupees. The Misl possessed 360 forts and an army of 10,000 horsemen. Many Rajas and Nawabs paid tribute to it.

(3) Kanhaiya Misl, had 8,000 fighting men.

(4) Ahluwalia Misl, the Raja of Kapurthala is its present representative.

(5) Phul Misl, the three ruling Chiefs of Patiala, Nabha and Jind are the descendants of this Misl and rule under British protection over territories conquered by their ancestors.

(6) Sukarchakian Misl, from this Misl rose the Great Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the Lion of the Punjab, who conquered many of the Misls.

(7) Karoria Misl, had 12,000 fighting men.

(8) Daleywalian Misl, had 7,500 fighting men.

(9) Nishanawalian (Banner bearer) Misl, had 12,000 followers.

(10) Fayzulapurian Misl, its descendants are still great Sardars.

(11) Shahidan (Martyrs) Misl, had 2,000 horsemen.

(12) Nakaian Misl, had 2,000 horsemen.

Understand now??Or is it too hard for you? :T:

The baed kitayb line is right in my humble opinion.

mat means "these ways of thinking"

mat does not mean "don't"

kaho mat jhootay means "call these ways of thinking as false"

it does not mean "do not call them false"

for example look at tua prasad swaiye

"saaray hee days ko daykh rahio MAT ko na daykhiat praan patee kay"

same thing there, the "mat" means "way of thinking, intellectual approach, lifestyle, religion" etc. etc. etc.

"thoo(n) samrathh vadaa mayree MAT thoree raam"

bhul chuk maaf karnaa

This is not your "humble" opinion.It is your wrong opinion.Allow me to correct you.

You refered to Gurbani from SGGS.Let me tell you that in this Gurbani the word mat is used.

Mat, matu (mamma-tatta) = stop, do not, have not.

Mati (mamma-tatta-sihari/bihari) = advice, instruction.

In Mahan Kosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, mat, matu and mati have been given accurate meanings.

In reference to Mahan Kosh:

Mat, mat(u) = stop, do not, have not

Mat(i) = way of thinking, advice, practice

So the following Pavittar Bani of Satguru is like this:

1. Bed Kateb kahahu Mat Jhute, Jhuta Jo Na Bicharai. (p.1350 SGGS)

Do not say the Veda and Kateb are false, false are they who do not contemplate.

r>So mat, mat(u) does mean "stop, do not, have not".You think you are more correct than Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha?

You think Satguru would call Veda false, when Satguru Nanak has said:

Gurmukh(i) Naadan, Gurmukh Vedan, Gurmukh Rahia Samai.

The Guru's Word is the Naad, the Guru's Word is the Veda, the Guru's Word is all pervasive. (Jap Ji Sahib)

So you are doing a grevious mistake in mis-translating and misleading Sikh youth.

Why would Satguru tell His Sikh to call the Veda and Kateb false?What kind of a Satguru is that who preaches hatred?You are doing beizzati of Satguru by misinterpreting His Bani.

Am I wrong? :T:

Someone could've tampered with the khopree.

Dear Khalistani Ji,

You have qouted passages from a false book, namely the modern day Christian Bible.At the end you stated:

this is what confuses me

I'm not surprised!The original teachings of the original Christians were tampered with by the apostate Roman Church, to suit their own ends.

Just like some so called "Sikh" have desire to change Guru Granth Sahib, our Satguru and reject Dasm Patshah di Bani, like Bachitra Natak, Charitropakhyan etc.

We must be very wary of any "Sikh" who want to change or reject Gurbani, just because they want Sikhi to follow their ideology.Learn from the past.

The original Christians were called Gnostics.Gnostic has same meaning as gyaani.They followed the path of gnosis (gyaan), gnosis of Vahiguru.But the Roman Church didn't like their ideas, because they wanted everyone to follow their version of Christianity.Sound familiar?I could go on, but am too tired.I'll point you to some resources:

http://www.jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk/

(Two books I recommend you read at above URL)

Heres an extract from The Jesus Mysteries:

http://www.courses.drew.edu/sp2000/BIBST18...1/Jesusmys.html

Sachee gal kahee, Kulpreet Singh Ji.

It looks like the Puran Pavaittar Sikhi of Satguru Nanak Nirankar is going the way of Christianity and Islam.

Believe it or not, but Islam and Christinaity were once true religions of Parbrahm Parmesar.But petty differences split these Dharam into what we have today.

Singho!!Do you not see Kaal and Maya are taking advantage of you?

Vahiguru...

Buddhists do believe in No-Thingness.They call It Shunya, it is written as Sunn in Gurbani.

Vahiguru is the Great No-Thingness, where not even nothing exists, where not even emptiness has any potency.

I once came across the following quote whilst browsing the internet, it's stuck in my mind ever since:

In the beginning there was nothing, not even nothing...

Reference is made to Sunn and Nirvan in Gurbani.Look at the following Ang of Satguru;

For Nirvan/Nirvan/Nibban: p.444 Mahala 4, p.219

For Sunn: p.943 Mahala 1 (Siddh Gost)

What is this Absolute-Void? :T:

Dear MKhalsa,

I am no better than dirt myself, but to say an amritdhari has no advantage over a non amritdhari is ridiculous.

I never said nor meant what you have stated above.I didn't talk about advantages.This is what I said:

To say that there is a difference between an Amritdhari doing Naam Simran of Vahiguru and non-Amritdhari, is to say that Amritdhari is thinking he/she is higher in status to non-Amritdhari.

Thinking.

Amrit is all important and without amrit, we have no chance in the world.

True.

Amritdhari...Amrit...is everywhere.Inside, outside is Amrit, when you are Amritdhari, chhak Khande Ka Pahul.

r>

Nobody has a monopoly on Puran Pavittar Naam Vahiguru.

To say that there is a difference between an Amritdhari doing Naam Simran of Vahiguru and non-Amritdhari, is to say that Amritdhari is thinking he/she is higher in status to non-Amritdhari.

Where is Nimrata in Amritdhari nowadays?You are supposed to see your Self in all, when you are Amritdhari, not to seperate yourself from rest of humanity.

Amritdhari...Amrit...is everywhere.Inside, outside is Amrit, when you are Amritdhari, chhak Khande Ka Pahul.

Vahiguru Vahiguru Vahiguru...Vahiguru Naam is That(?).

R. Dorothy Wayneright said:

Maybe I do all of those things because i find them ascetically pleasing. Have you ever though of that?

Did you mean ascetically or aesthetically?

I'm surprised that you R. Dorothy Wayneright would find something ascetic and pleasing.Now I really am confused :umm:

By the way, ascetically isn't a word.There is ascetic and asceticism.

It is because we owe it to our ancestors who were tortured and killed for not converting to Islam.

That hardly seems like a good reason. Why would you owe your ancestors anything?

I owe them my life.Without their sacrifices I wouldn't be here right now, replying to your be-izzat (disrespectful) response.Without Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa, I wouldn't be here enjoying life.

We wouldn't exist.You would not have been here on this Sikh forum.They (Moghul Empire) didn't just want Sikh killed, but wanted to destroy our religion.They were sytematically destroying Sikh and Sikhi (Sikhism).

If they'd have succeeded, you would never have heard of Sikh and Sikhi.

So that is why I say you do my ancestors be-izzati (great disrespect) when you say:

Why would you owe your ancestors anything?

Please refrain from doing further be-izzati.Thank you.

Just say: "No thank you, goodbye" to Jehovahs Witness's.You've got better things to do than mattha maar with them.

R. Dorothy Wayneright said:

Ohhh, sorry I guess that came out wrong. We _do know_ what happens to the body physically after death, but "spiritually" we don't know because we don't even know if "spirit" exists."

You are so condescending.

Physical proof of the non-physical is a bit of a problem you see.That is why we have skeptics like you.It is good we have skeptics like you.As for the existence of spirit, well there is no equivalent word in Sikhi, except maybe Atma (Pure Concsciousness) and jivatma (psyche/soul)?Psyche exists, and I know Pure Consciousness exists, I have "experienced" it in meditation on Vahiguru.I think spirit refers to Pure Consciousness?So spirit exists,if that is what spirit means.There is also, Supra-Consciousness (Param-Atma), which is experienced in meditation on Vahiguru.

The Reality of continued existence after bodily death is not made up as you say, it is and has been known about for millenia.

By who? Present your evidence. Scientific fact,

not conjecture (ie. no religious dogma).

There is no physical evidence.Reality is to be experienced by you alone, you cannot experience what another is experiencing.

Yes, these "Near Death Experiences" that _can't be reproduced_. What? I am just supposed to take someone's word that they had a "near death experience" or reached a high plane of existence without proof?"

No, you don't need to believe in anothers experience.This is only something that you alone can experience.The proof can only be found on your own.If you are unwilling to find that proof on your own by meditation, that is your loss.

If I told you I can make Au out of Al would you believe me? No, you would tell me to show you proof. If you want me to believe in these "near death experiences," you will have to show me some reproducible proof just like I would have to show you some reproducible proof of my claims.

If you told me that you can make gold out of aluminium, I would say: "Great, you must be a great scientist, I'd love to know how you did it."You've got me wrong, I don't want you to believe in anything, my dear.I believe because I have personal experience of the Divine.You don't believe because, maybe you don't wish have experience of the Divine aspect of your being.Am I wrong?Please tell me if I am.Do you wish to know of your real Self?The Self that exists while you're in deep sleep, whilst th

e self you identify with in waking state is non-exisitent. :T:

Do you exist when you're in deep sleep?Is your self not non-existent?

How about giving me some evidence of these planes of existence please please? How about you let someone (a sceptic or a non-believer) tag along and show them these high planes of existence?

Like I said before, you cannot experience the experiences of others.So there is no physical evidence.If this is unsatisfactory, then it is unsatisfactory.

So you are saying we haven't existed on earth for millions of years?

As far as I know, Homo Sapiens hasn't existed for millions of years.Am I wrong?

Now, you have posed a lot of unoriginal questions from a skeptics point of view.You require evidence, physical evidence of Realities, which are invisible and non-material.I will pose a few questions to you:

1. Does the electron exist?If I say it doesn't can you show me PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE evidence that it does exist?

2. Do you exist?Can you show me that your self exists.How do I know that your consciousness exists?Can you show me physical, tangible evidence of your existence?If I see you, I only see an image of you.If I touch you I only experience what my brain WANTS me to experience.The brain is a very clever device, it sees only what it whats to see.You know that do

n't you?Who is the seer?

The brain is made up of atoms and sub-atomic particles right?And what are these atomic particles made of?Energy, right?What is energy?Energy doesn't have physical, tangible existence does it?You can only see the effects of energy, but not energy itself?

They say: "Perception is reality".Do you think this statement is true?What you perceive, is it Reality?They say that what you perceive is not wholly real, that your brain fills in gaps of perception.You perceive what your brain wants you to perceive.

Instead of questioning Sikhi, why dont' you try questioning your self.Why it is the way you are.

Are we just a collection of habits, daily thought routines - subliminal activators?The Truth can be found within you, you just have to make the effort.Ofcourse, you don't need to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly is your agenda in coming onto these Sikh forums?

Do you wish to learn about Sikhi?Or do you wish to criticise and bash it?

Let me bring this quote to your attention; you said:

Science is the search for the truth.

Do you believe science is the only legitimate search for truth?

Also you seem to criticise why we follow our Dharam.Do you know the main reason why we, the Sikh of Satguru follow in His path?

It is because we owe it to our ancestors who were tortured and killed for not converting to Islam.Children were disembowelled infront of their mothers, thrown into the air onto spears.Many of our ancestors endured such horrors.We owe it to them.

Now, you come along and start to demean our beliefs and practices.You are doing our ancestor

s be-izzati (disrespect).

If you don't like us and Sikhi, why don't you just let us be, and stop giving us a headache? :umm: :umm: :D

Are you not proselytizing your views on science?Just like Christians and Muslims.

For R. Dorothy Wayneright; check out:

http://www.near-death.com/

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/end.html

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/startle.html

Do you have an open mind or closed mind?

Dear R. Dorothy Wayneright, you say:

What happens after the human body ceases to function is still a unknown to us. People talk about heaven/hell for several reasons, the two most important, in my opinion are:

1) To controls others.

Ex: "Do this, or you will go to hell."

2) To comfort themselves. Intellectually weak people need a crutch, people don't want to think that their existence will end once their physical body has died. So they create a afterlife where they will get rewarded or some-such.

What happens after human body cease to fuinction is known, maybe it is unknown to you.Sikhi is not about heaven/hell.We Sikh have no desire for heaven and we are not scared of hell.I think you have no knowledge of what Sikhi is about.You maybe think it is like Christianity and Islam?You are very wrong if you do.There are countless heavens and hells, but we desire none of this.

The Reality of continued existence after bodily death is not made up as you say, it is and has been known about for millenia.People like you just will not except the world-wide phenomena of Near Death Experience's.What people talk about who experience these NDE's correlates very well with Wisdom which is contained within Guru Granth Sahib.

QUOTE

Do you have any evidence of a existence for a high plane of 'life' than what we are experiencing right now? If you don't definitely know (as a scientific fact) of another plane of existence, how can you tell when you merged into that plane? What kind of evidence do you require?There many, countless planes of existence, high and low.Tell me please, what evidence is there that you exist.What evidence is there that R. Dorothy Wayneright exists?I'd love to see your answer. Humans ate meat, had lust, and anger, etc.. long before Sikhism came into play, and were part of our existence for many millions of years. You say millions of years?What evidence is there to prove this statement of yours? Their are no easy answers to the questions you pose, and you sure won't get the answers to them from some online message board. Ponder these questions in your spare time and develop your philosophies on life. That is the only 'true' answer you will ever get. The only True answer you will find is from the One Supreme Creator Being, That Truth which dwells in the mind of your mind.The mind of your mind, think about that...

External enemies of Sikhi are always destroyed.This RSS are nothing but insignificant worms.They will break and be destroyed, their pipe-dreams will not come to fruition.

What we need to look at are the enemies within Sikhi.The enemy within ranks has great potential to destroy Sikhi.I can name a few, but this site won't let me.

Admin Note: Why wouldnt this site let you name these people, please inform us.

Puritanical politically motivated "Sikh" are who we should weed out.They know who they are.I'm keeping my eye on you :T:

Singh = lion, babbar sher (lion has dhaari/kesh) :e:

Baagh (babba-kanna-ghaggha) = tiger, baghya sher (tiger has no dhaari/kesh) :umm:

Each time Sacche Patshah Guru Gobind Singh asked for a head on Baisakhi 1699, only men stood up to voluntarily offer their heads, no women stood up.Five men, hence Guru-Khalsa = five Amritdhari men.

Five Amritdhari women is not Guru-Khalsa.This is not a sexism issue, you can make it into one if you want to.

Dear GABROO Ji, check out the following link on Gupt Fauj (Secret Army).It's Baba Nihal Singh Ji, Tarna Dal Jathedar.Click on Gupt Fauj:

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/BabaNihalSinghJi/

Ok? B)

I defininately recommend a BBC program on Sri Guru Granth Sahib .That would be great.Even if the program isn't about Guru Granth Sahib, then Guru Sahib should feature a lot in the program.Maybe the program makers could visit Panjab to see the original Bir, Sri Kartarpuri Bir and Sri Damdami Bir.Or maybe they could look into non-Panjabi conversions to the Khalsa Panth?That would be interesting.Even if they don't do that, they should include converts to Sikhi in their program.Then people will see that Sikhi is for everyone. People will see that Sikhi is cool! B)

Be sure to get hold of the book titled "Dassam Granth Parbodh" especially if you believe in this:

Thank you Brother, I definately will get hold of Dasam Granth Parbodh.