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Re; the thread on the main page: No you're mistaking Canada for the whole of Western civilisation. In the UK the major criticism of 'Sikh youth born in the west' is that they are too soft, don't fight and just want to either study or pray all the time. Tejs. One of the signs of being able to tell whether someone is 'intellectual' or 'unintellectual' is in the way that person communicates with other individuals. You could have responded to jkvlondon in a more respectful way. The fact that jkvlondon didn't know what the actual historic Zafarnama is and mistook it for Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji's letter by the same name is OK. The fact that you didn't know either demonstrates the dangers of starting threads questioning the intelligence of others. We do have values and we are Punjabi so why should we not propagate our own culture ? When England embraced Christianity all those centuries ago, should it have immediately stopped speaking being English ? Genie, The current leader of the NDP in Canada is from that village group......The former Governor General of British Columbia is from that village group.....90% of the many Sikh MPs in Canada are from that village group.....Vancouver's deputy Chief of Police is from that village group....The American United Nations Secretary is from that village group ......The world's largest fruit farmer is from that village group.....The International Operations Manager of Tim Hortons is from that village group.....The owners of some of Britain's biggest industry brands are from that village group........The largest KFC, Pizza Hut and Dominoes franchises in the UK are from that village group....100% of the UKs Sikh MPs are from that village group....the world's most popular poet of today is from that village group..... NKJ speaker is from that group....Basics of Sikhi Jugraj Singh was from that village group. Do you see a pattern forming here genie ? There is a message behind it. The message is that no one group is any better than another. We are all individuals, each of us capable of amazing things. I don't want my children being evil castists by negatively labelling other groups as backward and I also want them to kick people like you in the teeth whenever they come across someone like you....i.e. someone that sees no problem in labelling people from that village background as backward and stupid. Either you are permanently stuck in the 1970s Genie or you are the most crass castist this forum has ever encountered. How on earth can you make disgusting statements like that about people and get away with it ? What a thoroughly disgusting thing to say about the rural folk. You would do well to remember that those Punjab 'city' folk you admire to much also habitually follow a practice that is completely unheard of among rural folk....Setting daughter in laws on fire for not bringing enough dowry !!!! I used to think that to Genie. But trust me, there is not a single person here - including you - that wants to learn anything. You want to say that right thing in order to portray your 'intellectual' qualities in an attempt to differentiate yourself from the 'unintellectuals' but we are living in a world where the line between the intellectuals and the unpadhs have been blurred. We have millions and millions of gems Tej. In can be argued that the unpadh man that can come to foreign 70 years ago, lay the foundation for future Sikh communities, take physical and mental blows galore but still keep his eye on the prize and work his way to a good future for his children and future generations has shown a lot more intellect than rich businessmen (perhaps like Mr Kampany) who didn't have enough intellect to know that they could have used their riches to empower their people in such a productive way. Please define what you mean by 'intellect' Tej as the very fact that you've self-proclaimed yourself one of the intellectuals and started a thread in which you criticise as 'unintellectual' those that fail to live up to your ideals does seem to suggest that you belong firmly in the latter camp. As a lifetime scholar of the Greeks let me say 2 things: 1) the Greek philosophers themselves look east (including Punjab) as a source of wisdom 2) The fact these 'wise' men also saw it as normal and OK to commit suicide by the age of 60 and see young boys as existing for the sexual pleasure of older men shows us that not all is as 'wise' and 'intellectual' as first seems. Didn't one of them also say "he who says (i.e starts a thread about how intellectual they are) doesn't really know. Those who really know don't say" ? Yes that is partly true but another way of looking at the Persians (from ancient to modern) is that they are poetic and artistic rather than 'intellectual' in the traditional sense. I'm a great lover of Persian poetry and neo-realism cinema so I do say this with a heavy heart but I can't help feeling that this poetic side to them is their downfall rather than saving grace in terms of intellect. Sure, it means they have a great tradition of the intelligentsia which is the vital component for revolutions and freedom struggles but it also means their overly emotive nature makes them the most drug addicted nation on earth. Me thinks they think too much. Intelligence then comes in many forms. The illegal fauji sitting on the Green in Southall for example, having first the intellect to know he needs to provide for his family, trekked through dangerous west Asian territory, darkest Africa, dodged bullets in eastern Europe before finally clinging on to the bottom of a truck for many hours in order to get to the UK. Isn't this intellect of knowing how to survive the true intellect ? or is it the 2nd generation western born Sikh who sits at his desk in front of the computer with all the comforts of the world proclaiming others to be unintellectual and himself the intellectual one ? Tej ?