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  1. Sat Sri Akal Everyone, This is my first post on this website. I come here with an open mind that is hungry for vayakaya and knowledge. NEO Singh's knowledge is commendable and he is one of the reasons I joined this website. I understand that the word RAM is used in Gurbani to refer to Akal Purakh/Parmeshwar/Sadashiv etc. (obviously unless Guru Sahib is talking about Ram, son of Raja Dasrath). However, the term Raghunath is something that creates confusion. This term is explicitly used only for Ram Chander. Murari is used only for Killer of Mur Rakshas. So someone please explain this to me without creating their own metaphors and allegories that the Gurus did not use themselves. Im tired of newly created metaphors designed to create anti-Hindu sentiment. Please respond in a mature fashion.
  2. I did this write up of sorts on why Ram Chandar, is not the Guru Sahibaan's Ram: RAM CHANDAR. WHO IS HE? AND HOW DO SIKHS VIEW HIM? Over time Right-Wing Hindu politicians have come up with the argument that the name of Ram is mentioned more than any other name in Gurbani. No other Sikh source supports this 'hyped-up' claim, nor have these right-wing extremists provided any proof except books published by them or the teachings of self-styled theologians. This has obviously lead to a heated debate as to who Ram is according to Gurbani. Guru Sahiban have u sed the name of Ram in Gurbani to mean Waheguru. Out of the many shabads which prove this claim we chose the following from Gurbani, to prove our point: ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥ Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥ So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190|| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190|| ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥ Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191|| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191|| Bhagat Kabir here has made a distinction for himself as to who the real Ram is. One Ram, the son of Dasrath and incarnation of Vishnu is contained only within himself. The other Ram, Bhagat Kabir's Ram is all pervading and everywhere. He is the one who Guru Sahiban termed as Akal Purakh, Waheguru Hari etc. Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥ ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ "The Formless alone, Nanak, is without fear, many are Ramas as the dust of His Feet, many Krishnas. Many are their stories and many are the Vedas." (SGGS - Ang 464). There are many Ramas who are the dust of his feet. The 'his' in this question again is Akal Purakh. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is often stated as having worshipped Ram, due to him writing Ram Avtar. It is stated that Guru Sahib deviated from the path of the following Gurus by writing Ram avtar but lets see what the Guru has to say about Ram, in Ram avtar: "Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else. I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them. O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command. Dohra! I have shunned every door and have entered Your door Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave." (Raam Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh). Ram Chander was born of a woman. His mother's name was Kaushalya. Puranic sources relate that Dasrath, Ram's father, had no son but three wives. He performed a yajna to have his wife beget sons. Kaushalya gave birth to Ram. Ram cannot be God if we look at Gurmat because he was born of a woman: ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ "Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||" (SGGS - Ang 1136). Many other aspects of Ram are rejected outright by Gurbani. Ram is often accepted as being an incarnation of Vishnu. The seventh to be exact. Gurbani says: ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥ "O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment." (Ang 1403). Countless Vishnus who themselves are attached to creation but not the creator. Whats the point of worshipping one when there are countless more? Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly states: ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ “I do not seek blessings or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I worship Krishan or Vishnu etc. I have heard of them but I do not recognise any of them. I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord (Waheguru) alone.” (DG – P. 733, Krishan Avtar. How could the Gurus have worshipped Rama when they did not believe in his source Vishnu? Our Gurus were the one and same jot from beginning till end they would not have contradicted their actions in the predecessor's form. How hard is all this for Hindus to understand? They can understand flying apes, ten-headed demi-gods but not a soul being the same yet with different bodies. A Sikh is required by the Guru to place his faith only in the Guru: :ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Saṯgur merā saḏā saḏā nā āvai na jā▫e. My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧੩॥ Oh abẖināsī purakẖ hai sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e. ||13|| He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. ||13|| What else does Gurbani say about the devte? A:ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥ रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥ Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār. Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives. and ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥ ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥ Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.(Sri Dasam Granth Sahib) Even Ram Chand passed away, yet God never takes birth nor dies according to Gurmat; so Ram cannot be God. ਏਕ ਸਿਵ ਭਏ ਏਕ ਗਏ ਏਕ ਫੇਰ ਭਏ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕ ਹੈਂ ॥ Ek Siv Bhae Ek Gae Ek Pher Bhae, Raamchanndra Krishan Ke Avtaar Bhee Anek Hain|| एक सिव भए एक गए एक फेर भए रामचंद्र क्रिसन के अवतार भी अनेक हैं ॥ There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna. 66810 ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਪੰਨਾ ੪੮ ਪੰ. The Guru's Ram on the other hand is Waheguru Akal Purakh as proved by Bhagat Kabir Ji's Shabad. Of course many Hindus argue that thats only Bhagat Kabir Ji's thinking. But we have to remember that the Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts, Gursikhs in reality all had one Guru and that was God, Waheguru. It is him they tell man to worship not any son of Dasrath who couldn't protect even his own wife! Now let us look at some facts about Ram Chandar, is he really an embodiment of Gurmat? 1.) Bali, the king of Kishkindha was at war with Raksash named Mayavi. Bali pursued Mayavi deep into a cave in the earth. Before going he asked his brother, Sugriva to wait outside the cave. Sugriva however had other plans. He returned to Kishkindha and declared himself King. As prime minister he appointed Hanuman, the simian demi-God. In this grab of power he derived Angad, the son of Bali of kingship. When Bali came out of the cave, after killing his nemesis he did not find Sugriva there. After coming to know of what had transpired he raised an army and drove Sugriva out of Kishkindha. The two brothers were now openly at war and had become enemies. Knowing fully well the deception of Sugriva and his greed Ram Chandar (the so-called king of Dharma) still decided to help him against forth righteous Bali. In one of the battles fought between the two brothers, Ram 'Ji' hid behind a tree and through deception gave orders to kill Bali. After Bali's death he appointed Sugriva as the king of Kishkindha. The kingship belonged to the next of kin Angad, yet Angad was forgotten in all this. Sugriva had already proven his colours once so could not have been appointed as the boy's supervisor, yet what did Ram 'Ji' do though? He helped in the demise of an innocent king and that too through deception. It was due to this incident that Sugriva offered to help Ram 'Ji' in attacking Ravan. Many anti-Panthic forces have the cheek to compare this incident with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's helping of Bahadur Shah. One fact straight away destroys this comparision, and that fact is that Bahadur Shah was the rightful heir to Aurangzeb's throne. Secondly he had himself gone to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a supplicant. Guru Sahib helped him, irregardless of his (Bahadur Shah's father's misdeeds). Nor did Guru Ji fear the mughals, who at this stage had given up pursuing him and after Aurangzeb's fanatic policies were beginning to crumble. The very fact that Bahadur Shah had to ask Guru Ji for assistance in helping crush rebellion against him by various members of his families shows the weakness of the mughals. Furthermore the mughal records at the time can prove this. 2.) According to the 'Balmik Sarg' (6-115) after the deaths of Ravan, and his son Inderjeet; Hanuman brought Seeta to Ram 'Ji'. Great king Ram 'Ji' however couldn't care less at this stage. taaM tu paarshve sthitaaM prahvaaM raamaH saMprekShye maithiliim | hR^idayaantargataM bhaavaM vyaahartumupachakrame || 6-115-1 1. samprekShya= seeing; taam maithiliim= that Seetha; sthitaam= who stood; paarshve= at his vicinity; prahvaam= bowing low; raamaH= Rama; upachakrame= began; vyaahartum= to tell; bhaavam= his feeling; hR^idayaantargatam= hidden in his heart (as follows). Seeing that Seetha, who stood at his vicinity bowing low, Rama began to tell his feeling hidden in his heart (as follows): eShaasi nirjitaa bhadre shatruM jitvaa raNaajire | pauruShaadyadanuShTheyaM mayaitadupapaaditam || 6-115-2 2. bhadre= my dear lady!; eShaa= you; asi= are; nirjitaa= won back (by me); jitvaa= after conquering; shatrum= the enemy; raNaajire= in the battle-field; tat yat= that which; anuShTheyam= is to be done; pauruShaat= through human effort; upapaaditam= has been accomplished; mayaa= by me. "You are won back by me, after conquering the enemy in the battle-field, my dear lady! That which is to be done through human effort, has been accomplished by me." gato.asmyantamamarShasya dharShaNaa saMpramaarjitaa | avamaanashcha shatrashcha yugapannihatau mayaa || 6-115-3 3. gataH asmi= I have come to; antam= the end; amarShasya= of my indignation; dharShaNaa= and my outrage; sampramaarjitaa= has been completely requited; shatrushcha= and the enemy; anumaanashcha= as well as the contempt; nihatau= have been wiped out; yugavat= all at once; mayaa= by me. "I have come to the end of my indignation and my outrage has been completely requited as also the contempt against the enemy have been wiped out, all at once, by me." adya me pauruShaM dR^iShTamadya me saphalaH shramaH | adya tiirNapratijJNo.ahaM prabhavaamyadya chaatmanaH || 6-115-4 4. adya= now; me= my; pauruSham= manly strength; dR^iShTam= has been seen (by all); adya= today; me= my; shramaH= toil; saphalaH= has borne fruit; adya= now; aham= I; tiirNa pratijJNaH= have fulfilled my promise; adya= today; prabhavaami= I am the master; aatmanaH= of myself. "Now, my manly strength has been seen by all. Today, my toil has borne fruit. Now, I have fulfilled my promise. Today, I am the master of myself." yaa tvaM virahitaa niitaa chalachittena rakShasaa | daivasaMpaadito doSho maanuSheNa mayaa jitaH || 6-115-5 5. yaa tvam= you, who; virahitaa= became deserted from me; niitaa= was taken away; chalachittena rakShasaa= by a ficle-minded demon; doShaH= the wrong; daivasampaaditaH= brought about by the destiny jitaH= has been corrected; mayaa= by me; maanuSheNa= a human being. "The wrong done to you, when you were deserted from me, in that you were taken away by a fickle-minded demon, which was ordained by the destiny, has been corrected by me as a human being." saMpraaptamavamaanaM yastejasaa na pramaarjati | kastasya pauruSheNaartho mahataapyalpachetasaH || 6-115-6 6. kaH arthaH= what is the use; pauruSheNa= of a prowess; tasya mahataapi alpachetasH= of a weak-minded man, even if it is mighty; yaH na pramaarjati= who does not wipe out; sampraaptam avamaanam= the insult fallen to his lot; tejasaa= by means of his energy? "What is the use of a prowess, however great, of that weak-minded man who does not wipe out, by his energy, the insult fallen to his lot?" laN^ghunaM samudrasya laN^kaayaashchaapi mardanam | saphalaM tasya cha shlaaghyamadya karma hanuumataH || 6-115-7 7. shlaaghya= the praise-worthy; karma= act; tasya hanuumataH= of that Hanuma; laN^ghanam= (namely) the crossing; samudrasya= of the ocean; mardanam cha= and the destroying; laN^kaayaaH= of Lanka; the destroying; laNKaayaaH= of Lanka; adya= today; saphalam= has borne fruit. "The praise-worthy act of Hanuma in the form of crossing of the ocean and the destroying of Lanka, has borne fruit today." yuddhe vikramatashchaiva hitaM mantrayatastathaa | sugriivasya sasainyasya saphalo.adya parishramaH || 6-115-8 8. parishramaH= the endeavour; sugriivasya= of Sugreeva; sa sainyashcha= together with his army; vikramataH= for his attack; yuddhe= in the battle; tathaa= and; mantrayataH= his counsel; hitam= of a good advice; saphalah= is fruitful; adya= today. "The endeavour of Sugreeva, who exhibited his prowess on the battle-field with his army and tendered a good advice, is fruitful today." vibhiiSaNasya cha tathaa saphalo.adya parishramaH | viguNaM bhraataraM tvaktvaa yo maaM svayamupasthitaH || 6-115-9 9. tathaa= furthermore; parishramashcha= the exertion; vibhiiShaNashcha= of Vibhishana; yaH= who; tyaktvaa= after abandoning; bhraataram= his brother; viguNam= who was void of good qualities; svayam= andpersonall; upasthitaH= reached; maam= me; saphalaH= is fruitful; adya= today. "Furthermore, the exertion of Vibhishana, who after deserting his brother who was void of good qualities, sought my presence, is fruitful today. ityevaM vadataH shrutvaa siitaa raamasya tadvachaH | mR^igiivotphullanayanaa babhuuvaashrupariplutaa || 6-115-10 10. shrutvaa= hearing; tat= those; vachaH= words; vadataH= spoken; tiyevam= thus; raamasya= by Rama; siitaa= Seetha; utphullanayanaa= her eyes wide open; mR^igiiva= like those of a female-deer; babhuuva was; ashrupariplutaa= filled with tears. Hearing those words spoken thus by Rama, Seetha with her eyes wide open like those of a female-deer, was bathed in tears. pashyatastaaM tu raamasya samiipe hR^idayapriyaam | janavaadabhayaadraajJNo babhuuva hR^idayaM dvidhaa || 6-115-11 11. hR^idayam= the heart; raajJNaH raamasya= of King Rama; pashyataH= as he saw; taam= Seetha (hR^idaya priyaam= the beloved of his heart); samiipe= near him; babhuuva dvidha= was torn; janavaada bhayaat= for fear of the talk of the public. The heart of King Rama, as he saw Seetha, (the beloved of his heart) near him, was torn for fear of public scandal. siitaamutpalapatraakShiiM niilakuJNchitamuurdhajaam | avadadvai varaarohaaM madhye vaanararakShasaam || 6-115-12 12. madhye= in the midst; vaanara raakShasaam= of monkeys and demons; avadat vai= Rama spoke; siitaam= to Seetha; utpala patraakShiim= whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus; niila kuN^jitu muurdhajaam= hair, dark in hue as also curled; vanaarohaam= and hips, excellent. In the midst of monkeys and demons, Rama spoke (as follows) to Seetha, whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus, who wore dark curly hair and was endowed with fine hips. yatkartavyaM manuShyeNa dharSaNaaM pratimaarjataa | tatkR^itaM raavaNaM hatvaa mayedaM maanakaaN^kkShiNaa || 6-115-13 13. mayaa= by me; maanakaaN^kShiNaa= wanting for an honour; tat idam= this particular act; yat= which; kartavyam= ought to be done; manuShyeNa= by a man; kR^itam= has been done; hatvaa= in killing; raavaNam= Ravana; pratimaarjitaa= and thus wiping away; dharShaNaam= the insult. "I, wanting for an honour, have done this particular act, which ought to be done by a man, in killing Ravana and thus wiping away the insult meted out to me." nirjitaa jiivalokasya tapasaa bhaavitaatmanaa | agastyena duraadharShaa muninaa dakShiNeva dik || 6-115-14 14. nirjitaa= (you have been) won by me; bhaavitaatmanaa= whose mind stands purified; tapasaa= by asceticism; dakShiNaa dik iva= as the southern quarter; duraadharShaa= which was difficult to be approached; jiivalokasya= by the world of mortals; (was conquered by) agastyena= by the Sage Agastya. "You have been won by me, whose mind stands purified by asceticism as the southern quarter, which was difficult to be approached by the world of mortals, was conquered by the Sage Agastya." viditashchaastu bhadraM te yo.ayaM raNaparishramaH | sutiirNaH suhR^idaaM viiryaanna tvadarthaM mayaa kR^itaH || 6-115-15 rakShataa tu mayaa vR^ittamapavaadam cha sarvataH | prakhyaatasyaatmavaMshasya nyaN^gaM cha parimaarjataa || 6-115-16 15-16. viditaH astu= let it be known (to you); ayam yuddhaparishramaH= that this endeavour in the shape of war; sutiirNaH= which has been successfully carried through; viiryaat= due to the strength; suhR^idaam= of my friends; na kR^itaH= was not undertakne; tvadartham= for your sake; te bhadram astu= let there be happiness to you!; mayaa= (this was done) by me; rakShataa= in order to keep up; vR^itam= my good conduct; parimaarjitaa= and wipe off; apavaadam cha= the evil-speaking; sarvataH= from all sides; nyaNgam= as well as the insinuation; prakhyaatasya aatmavamshasya= on my own illustrious dynasty. "Let it be known to you that this endeavor in the shape of war, which has been successful carried through, due to the strength of my friends was not undertaken for your sake. Let there be prosperity to you! This was done by me in order to keep up my good conduct and to wipe off the evil-speaking from all sides as well as the insinuation on my own illustrious dynasty." praaptachaaritrasaMdeha mama pratimukhe sthitaa | diipo netraaturasyeva pratikuulaasi me dR^iDham || 6-115-17 17. praapta chaaritra sandehaa= (You) with a suspicion arisen on your character; sthitaa= standing; pratimukhe= in front of; mama= me; dR^iDham pratikuulaa api= are extremely disagreeable; me= to me; diipaH iva= even as a light; netraaturasya= to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight. "You, with a suspicion arisen on your character, standing in front of me, are extremely disagreeable to me, even as a light to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight." tadgachchha tvaanujaane.adya yatheShTaM janakaatmaje | etaa dasha disho bhadre kaaryamasti na me tvayaa || 6-115-18 18. janakaatmaje= O Seetha!; tat= that is why; anujaane= I am permitting; tvaa= you; adya= now; gachchha= go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; tetaaH dasha dishaH= to any of these ten directions; naasti= there is no; kaaryam= work to be done; me= to me; tvayaa= by you; bhadre= my dear lady! "O Seetha! That is why, I am permitting you now. Go wherever you like. All these ten directions are open to you, my dear lady! There is no work to be done to me, by you." kaH pumaaMstu kule jaatah striyaM paragR^ihoShitaam | tejasvii punaraadadyaat suhR^illekhyena chetasaa || 6-115-19 19. kaH tejasvii pumaan= which noble man; jaataH= born; kule= in an illustrious race; aadadyaat= will take; punaH= back; striyam= a woman; paragR^ihoShitaam= who lived in another's abode; suhR^illekhyena chetasaa= with an eager mind? "Which noble man, born in an illustrious race, will take back a woman who lived in another's abode, with an eager mind?" raavaNaaN^kaparikliShTaaM dR^iShTaaM duShTena chakShuShaa | kathaM tvaaM punaraadadyaaM kulaM vyapadishan mahat || 6-115-20 20. vyapadishan= while mentioning about; mahat kulam= my great lineage; katham= how; aadadyaam= can I accept; punaH= again; tvaam= you; raavaNaaN^ka parikliShTaan= who were harassed in Ravana's lap while being borne away by him) dR^iShTaam= and who were seen (by him) duShTena chakShuShaa= with evil looks? "While mentioning greatly about my lineage, how can I accept again, you who were harassed in Ravana's lap (while being borne away by him) and who were seen (by him) with evil looks?" tadarthaM nirjitaa me tvaM yashaH pratyaahR^itaM mayaa | naasth me tvayyabhiShvaN^go yatheShTaM gamyataamitaH || 6-115-21 21. tvam nirjitaa= you were won; me= by me; tadartham= for that end (viz. retrieval of my lost honour); yashaH= the honour; pratyaahR^itam= has been restored; mayaa= by me; me= for me; na asti= there is no; abhiShvaN^gaH= intense attachment; tvayi= in you; gamyataam= you may go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; itaH= from here. "You were won by me with that end in view (viz. the retrieval of my lost honour). The honour has been restored by me. For me, there is no intense attachment in you. You may go wherever you like from here." Seeta's reply was one of sorrow and supplication. She begged Ram 'Ji' to let her prove her innocence. Hence an agni pariksha, or test of fire was decided upon. Agni,^ the God of fire appeared and himself told Ram 'Ji' Seeta was innocent. Agni commanded Ram 'Ji' to take her back. But more suffering was still in store for Seeta. Ram 'Ji' back in Ayodhya became king, yet he did not treat Seeta like his wife or queen and tongues started to wage. Especially when Seeta became pregnant. The court jester reported this to Ram 'Ji' and Ram 'Ji' ordered brother Lakshman to take Seeta to the Ganges and leave her there alone and friendless. Lakshman completed the task left up to him and a heavily pregnant woman was left to the mercy of nature. Yet there is one even above the Hindu Gods* who smiled upon her, and soon his devotee Balmik found her and took her in. In time Seeta gave birth to two boys, Luv and Khush who became deadly archers like their fickle-minded father. Even Ram 'Ji' had heard of Balmik and invited him to a Yajna. Alongwith Balmik went the two boys. At Ayodhya they sang songs about their mother and Ram 'Ji' asked to their background. They told him they were the sons of a woman who was banished to the forest by an unworthy and weak minded husband, on hearing this Ram ‘Ji’ realised that these boys were talking about none other than him. After revealing to the duo who he really was he asked Seeta to come back to Ayodhya in an assembly of saints and prove her innocence. Seeta presented herself and gave testimony saying, she had never thought about any other man than Ram. Even in her dreams. But Seeta was not ready to forgive Ram Ji herself. She said that let the earth swallow her, and it is said that the earth opened and she fell in the fissure. Clearly she had had enough of a fickle-minded and suspicious husband. According to Gurmat a woman is pure and equal to man in all respects.** Hence her opinion should be asked on all matters. The Gurus did not definitely worship such a figure who was so stone-hearted that he left his wife at the mercy of the elements. Ram ‘Ji’ would definitely have taken the seven vows of marriage (according to Hindu tradition) in the presence of fire which bound him to fidelity and life-long companionship. Yet he broke this vow, another sign of non-Gurmat as a Gurmukh is one who does not break his word.*** 3.) The description of Ram ‘Ji’s’ lifestyle is one totally rejected by Gurmat. According to Balmik Ji (Read Uttra Khand) Ram 'Ji'‘used to watch Apasaras (beautiful women) dancing and enjoyed liquor of the finest quality. Ram ‘Ji’s’ drinking bouts lasted well into the night and many beautiful women were brought for him from China and Manchuria. It is for this lavish lifestyle that Balmik Ji has rightly labelled Ram ‘Ji’ as a “prince among ladies’ men.” He was even a consumer of meat. All these actions do not tally with any figure of dharma (religion) or righteousness and is very far from the course of Gurmat. 4.) Over the course of time, it has been said many times that Ram Chander was a just man/demi-god. Let us look at the truth of this statement. A Brahman’s son died a premature death and a Shudra named Shambhuk was blamed. Shambhuk’s only sin was that he undertook religious rituals. The Brahmin conveyed his news and distress to Ram ‘Ji’ and asked for justice. According to Gurmat all the four varnas or castes have the right to seek God and perform religious rituals, ਬ੝ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰ੝ ਖ੝ਯ੝ਯਤ੝ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪ੝ਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪ੝ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕ੝ਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥ Barahman bais sūḝ ar kẖa­yṯarī dom cẖandĝr malėcẖẖ man so­ė. Ho­ė punīṯ bẖagvanṯ bẖajan ṯė ĝp ṯĝr ṯĝrė kul ḝo­ė. ॥1॥ Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaishya, a Soodra, or a Kh'shaatriya; whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person, he becomes pure, by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself, and the families of both his parents. ॥1॥ (SGGS p858). According to Ram ‘Ji’ howver, this was not the case, he immediately reached the spot where Shambhuk was doing religious practices and without warning cut of his head. A great deed on the part of a God. And as if to justify this deed, many Brahmins say that the prematurely expired son came back to life after this deed of Ram ‘Ji’. Furthermore to give the episode more religious significance it is said that the other Gods hailed this act of Ram ‘Ji’. 5.) Ravan needed no bridge to come to the Indian mainland from Lanka, but Ram Ji needed a bridge to go to him. Furthermore such a vast bridge was completed in only 5 days? Who was more powerful? The bridgeless or the one who needed the bridge? All this in the face of Ram Ji having many flying chariots. It is mentioned in Uttra Khand: “Countless chariots were flying in the sky. Their shadows on earth looked like the multitudes of locusts.” All these chariots belonged to Ram Ji yet he still needed a bridge. 6.) Ravan having more than one head. We believe this is a symbolisation of Ravan’s strength and/or bhagti which has been wrongly misinterpreted. In all this let us conclude as to the imperfections of Ram ‘Ji’ in the terms of Gurmat: 1.) The slaying of innocent Bali. 2.) The mistreatment of Seeta. 3.) The slaying of an innocent Shudra. 4.) Ram ‘Ji’s’ birth. To sum up Ram ‘Ji’ was neither the perfect king or husband. Neither was he virtuous or loving towards all his subjects. He was bound by the mentality of stratification and lead an anti-Gurmat life. Guru-Sahibaan definitely do not mean this Ram when they say: ਬਿਲਾਵਲ੝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਭੂਲੇ ਮਾਰਗ੝ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗ੝ਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨ੝ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਮ੝ਕਤਿ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਦ੝ਖ ਸ੝ਖ ਕਰਤ ਜਨਮਿ ਫ੝ਨਿ ਮੂਆ ॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਆਸ੝ਰਮ੝ ਦੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂਡਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੮॥ Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla: He places the one who strays back on the Path; such a Guru is found by great good fortune. ||1|| Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind. The Beloved Feet of the Guru abide within my heart. ||1||Pause|| The mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and emotional attachment. Breaking my bonds, the Guru has liberated me. ||2|| Experiencing pain and pleasure, one is born, only to die again. The Lotus Feet of the Guru bring peace and shelter. ||3|| The world is drowning in the ocean of fire. O Nanak, holding me by the arm, the True Guru has saved me. ||4||3||8|| bilaaval mehalaa 5 || bhoolae maarag jinehi bathaaeiaa || aisaa gur vaddabhaagee paaeiaa ||1|| simar manaa raam naam chithaarae || bas rehae hiradhai gur charan piaarae ||1|| rehaao || kaam krodhh lobh mohi man leenaa || ba(n)dhhan kaatt mukath gur keenaa ||2|| dhukh sukh karath janam fun mooaa || charan kamal gur aasram dheeaa ||3|| agan saagar booddath sa(n)saaraa || naanak baah pakar sathigur nisathaaraa ||4||3||8|| Notes: ^ It seems Agni is more superior than Ram ‘Ji.’ * God. According to Gurbani Bhagat Balmik was a worshipper of Akal Purakh. In terms of Gurmat the Ramayan or tale of Ram ‘Ji’ is only a record by him not a scripture. ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਸੁਪਚਾਰੋ ਤਰਿਓ ਬਧਿਕ ਤਰੇ ਬਿਚਾਰੇ ॥ Baalameek Supachaaro Thariou Badhhik Tharae Bichaarae || बालमीकु सुपचारो तरिओ बधिक तरे बिचारे ॥ Baalmeek the outcaste was saved, and the poor hunter was saved as well. 42735 ਮਾਰੂ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੯੯ ਪੰ. ੫ Raag Maaroo Guru Arjan Dev (Maru Mahala 5, pg. 999). ** From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473. Bhai Gurdas pays further tributes to a woman in his vaar: “A woman is the favourite in her parental home loved dearly by her father and mother. In the home of her in-laws, she is the pillar of the family, the guarantee of its good fortune. Sharing in spiritual wisdom and enlightenment and with the noble qualities, with which (the Creator) has endowed her, a woman, the other half of man, escorts him to the door of liberation." (V.16). ***According to various rehatnamas Gurmukh is one who never goes back on his word. Notes: Many Hindus say that Ram is not a God but someone who embodies perfection. A virtuous and noble figure. However Ram’s legend does not hold true to this claim. Sikhs are forbidden from drinking and looking at a women (immorally) other than their own rightful spouse. Ram ‘Ji’ however was the opposite of this. It is said in the Balmik Ramayan, Sarg 125, Shalok 44: “He offered him (Hanuman) villages, 100 cows and 16 beautiful virgins.” Clearly a man who gave women away in this manner would not have stopped at the thought of treating them as sexual objects. In the Rehatnames it has been written: ‘Par nari ki sej, bhul supne hun na jayo' (never enjoy, even in dream, the bed of a woman other than your own wife) (A supplementary ordinance was issued that any one who did not observe any of the four directives, must be re- baptized, pay a fine, and promise not to offend any more; or he must be excommunicated from the Khalsa). Concerning intoxicants: ਸ੝ਆਦ ਲ੝ਭਤ ਇੰਦ੝ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੝ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ Su▫ĝḝ lubẖaṯ inḝrī ras pareri▫o maḝ ras laiṯ bikĝri▫o re. Karam bẖĝg sanṯan sangĝne kĝsat loh uḝẖĝri▫o re. (3) Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt. But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints, float over the ocean, like iron attached to wood.(3) (SGGS p335). More shabads can be found. An immoral man such as Ram ‘Ji’ cannot be the Ram which the Guru’s taught about. He is clearly a mortal ingrossed in himself. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji fought for religion. He battled the Mughals four times and achieved a stunning victory over them in each battle. Through his battles he expounded the need of weapons for a religion under persecution. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also fought 14 battles in the same spirit against Hindu and muslim fanatics. Ram ‘Ji’ only fought a battle for his own personal slight. Nor did he leave any Granth or teachings as his legacy. Clearly he is not a religious figure. Although it is agreed Balmik composed original Ramayana it is today a matter of debate as to the verses prevalent in the epic. Originally thought to be 24,000, today it consists of 40,000. Hindu extremists have no explanation to this. Many historians believe that Balmik Ji borrowed Ramayana from the Buddhist Dasrath Jatka and changed the storyline. The Buddhist version states that Sita was the sister of Ram 'Ji.' Hence he committed incest by marrying her. Mahatma Gandhi never condemned caste-ism, he only condemned untouchability as a physical act. Ayodhya is described as a city with sky scrapers and infrastructure embedded with gems. Archaeologists are yet to find all this. Ram Chandar is not found in the Vedas. Now I want to do one on how Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not an incarnation of Krishna and how Krishna differs from Gurmat. Can anyone provide me with info that is shabads from Gurbani and Dasam Granth to start me off please?
  3. A hindu friend of mine once remarked SGGS is written in praise of Rama and Krishna - here are two shabads to debunk this myth - first is by bhagat namdev and second by Guru Nanak . ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥ O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields. ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥ Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥ ; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3|| ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥ The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥ Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7|| ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl: ਪਉਣੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੀ ਸਭ ਧਰਤੀ ਜਲ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ He created the air, and He supports the whole world; he bound water and fire together. ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਦਹਸਿਰਿ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਕਟਾਇਆ ਰਾਵਣੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ The blind, ten-headed Raavan had his heads cut off, but what greatness was obtained by killing him? ||1|| ਕਿਆ ਉਪਮਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਖੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ What Glories of Yours can be chanted? ਤੂੰ ਸਰਬੇ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ You are totally pervading everywhere; You love and cherish all. ||1||Pause|| ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਨਥਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ You created all beings, and You hold the world in Your Hands; what greatness is it to put a ring in the nose of the black cobra, as Krishna did? ਕਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਜੋਰੂ ਕਉਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥ Whose Husband are You? Who is Your wife? You are subtly diffused and pervading in all. ||2|| ਨਾਲਿ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਰਦਾਤਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ Brahma, the bestower of blessings, entered the stem of the lotus, with his relatives, to find the extent of the universe. ਆਗੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕੰਸੁ ਛੇਦਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੩॥ Proceeding on, he could not find its limits; what glory was obtained by killing Kansa, the king? ||3|| ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੇ ਖੀਰੁ ਮਥਿਆ ਹੋਰਿ ਭਖਲਾਏ ਜਿ ਅਸੀ ਕੀਆ ॥ The jewels were produced and brought forth by churning the ocean of milk. The other gods proclaimed "We are the ones who did this!" Further there are other sloks like "Devi deva poojiye kya mango kya dey" "thakur chor cheri ko dhyave" Here is another shabad by bhagat namdev again ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox, ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1|| ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥ I take only the Name of the One Lord. ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ That man who chants “Shiva, Shiva“, and meditates on him, ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2|| ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ One who worships the Great Goddess Maya ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ You are called the Primal Goddess. ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥ At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥ Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||
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