Singh47

he is the head or acting head as you may wish to say of the Damdami Taksal.. a jatha started By Guru Gobind Singh ji..

Actually this is not accurate, and is in dispute. But I agree with everything else you wrote.

Pheena, you can find the complete Sahib Singh teeka online in the following link:

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/

as for Giani Narayan Singh Jee, well his translations are not available online, but you might be able to find his translation in a Sikh book store.

“But i do have few Question, perhaps you can answer. So according to Sahib singh or Gyani ji, buddha did not acheive Liberation or merge with God?? Giaan Khand being lower than Sach Khand..he spent 6 years in search to find the source only to fall short of merging with god??”

I don’t think it’s according to Gyani jee or Sahib Singh, but it is according to Guru Nanak Dev Jee who has written it in Sri Japjee Sahib. Also, you have to understand what Buddhism is all about. It is about liberation, but they don’t give God any importance. Infact they don’t even believe in the concept of a God. They want to achieve liberation without giving emphasis on God, which I think is not possible. At most they will reach Gian Khand, but not any further. Buddha himself may or may not have believed in God as he was silent on this issue, but Buddhism definitely does not.

"I don't think Budh in that shabad implies to Buddha. The shabad is Implying your Budh, your Intellect. But i'd liike more explanation as to how it says Buddha is in Gyaan Khand? I could be wrong, so please clear my doubts."

Pheena, both Sahib Singh, and Gyani Narayan Singh Pandit have translating ‘Budh’ in that tukh as ‘Budh avtar'(Buddha) and not as intellect.

Why would a Sikh want to join an atheist religion like Buddhism which does not even believe in the existence of God? According to the 36th PouRi of Japjee Sahib, Buddha is in Gyan-Khand. (ketay sidh budh naadh katay katay devi ves). A Sikhs destination is Sach Khand which is far above Gyan Khand. Why give up so much for so little?

I don’t know about supporting Damdami Taksal, but I definitely support Khalistan which will support all Panthic Sikhs and not just one jathabandi. I beleive Khalsa Raj will be made by all Panthic Sikhs and not just by Taksali Singhs.

I don’t know about you guys, but I agree with Pheena. The “www.saintsoldiers.net” is too large, and definitely on the wrong place. If one wants to advertise their website, then do it before or after the documentary. Either way, you will get your website publicized.

I wasn’t but someone very close to me was once called Osama by a homeless person because he didn’t give him some money.

Khalistan, can you add any facts or details to back up your assertion that Sarbloh Granth is Bani. It’s language is considered very uncultured by scholars to be that of Guru Gobind Singh Jee who was known of for poetic greatness. The language contained in Sarbloh Granth is that of Bihari peasants. Please don’t insult Dasam Patshah by saying that he would write such things.

Singh123 don’t forget the ink recipes which were also taken out.

Bhai Bikramjit SIngh wrote a very informative article on this a while back. Here it is:

Taken from:

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.ppa?act=...=sarbloh+granth

Here's something I posted about the Sarbloh Granth on another forum.

The Sarbloh Granth is not Gurbani. The Nihangs like to maintain that it is a secret text because it's history only goes back 200 years. The Sikhs of Panjab from the times of Guru Gobind Singh to around 1803 did not have access to this Granth. It is ironic that the Granth which is supposed to be full of 'Bir Ras' and inspire a warrior spirit in the reader was not available to the Sikhs in the 18th century when they needed it the most. This means that Banda Singh Bahadur, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and the Budha Dal and Tarna Dal did not have this Granth.

In the commentary prepared by Baba Harnam Das Udasi for the Budha Dal Sampuran satik Sri Sarabloh granth sahib ji, he states that the Granth only reached Punjab in 1803 and prior to that it was in the south. Since this is a book which was written for and published by the Budha Dal then one must assume that the Nihangs accept this finding of Baba Harnam Das.

Even then it would be fair to assume that the Budha Dal did not accept the Sarbloh Granth as authentic until sometime after that. Most of the European travellers who visited th

e Punjab before it's annexation in 1849 talk only of two Granths being installed amongst the Nihangs. It is possible that even then the Sarbloh Granth was a 'secret text' and it would not have been installed for these travellers to see. But what better way to introduce a Granth which cannot be traced back to Guru Gobind Singh but to claim it to have been a 'secret text'. But when you introduce the concept of 'secret texts' you then have to invent other mythology in order to sustain the concept of a 'secret text'. You then get 'secret martial art', 'hidden knowledge' etc. So in the end you go from a Sikhism of the Guru Granth Sahib in which Gurbani is available to all who seek it to one of 'secret texts'.

Many scholars have tried to analyse the Sarbloh Granth and the most famous has been Pandit Tara Singh Narotam. His findings published in his book 'Gurmat Nirnay Sagar' which were also accepted by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha were that the Sarbloh Granth was not the work of Guru Gobind Singh. His findings were that it was actually written by Bhai Sukha Singh who was a granthi at Patna Sahib. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam studied the Sarbloh Granth based on the language used and it's poetic merit. He found the Sarbloh Granth lacking in both. The Sarbloh Granth deals with the wars between the Gods and the Demons and when Pandit Tara Singh Narotam compared it's poetry with that of the Dasam Granth he concluded that the poetry as well as the language could not be the work of Guru Gobind Singh. His views on the Ogardanti was that the language was too rustic and uncultured to have been written by Guru Gobind Singh. The words 'Tumman' (you ) and 'Humman' ( Me, us ) which are used in Chakkas 1 and 9 are from the language of illiterate peasants of Bihar. Such uncultured language does not exist in the Dasam Granth.

Many Sanatan Sikhs accept that all three Granths are Gurbani. The fact that one of the greatest scholars that the

Nirmalas ever produced concluded that it was not Gurbani still doesn't make a difference. For them the Guru Granth Sahib which was given Guruship, the Dasam Granth of which even the fiercest critics still concede contains some works of Guru Gobind Singh and a secret text which has a dubious history are all on the same level and all worthy to be called Guru!.

The Nihangs of the Budha Dal have readily accepted the Sarbloh Granth as Gurbani but the Nirmalas who being scholars have their doubts about the Sarbloh Granth. The Nirmalas like all scholars like to base their judgements on their knowledge or the knowledge of others who have studied the matter for longer. If you told a true Nirmala that you have a 'secret text' which is Gurbani he will test that text rather than accept it there and then. This is what the Nirmalas of the 19th century such as Tara Singh Narotam did when faced with being told by Nihangs that the Sarbloh Granth was Gurbani.

Lastly people like to believe in 'secret texts' and 'secret martial arts' rather than trust their own rationale. That's probably why more people watch Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings than watch the news.

bump

Khalistani wrote:

“ive seen that thread, which did make me upset

but aare u sure sant baba nand singh je approved it??

bhula chuka maf”

Amaraow Singh wrote:

“thirdly this notion that nanksaris believe in some1 other than the 10 living gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, is highly perposturous. if one was to attend a proper thath then you would know that.”

Actually, that is only correct to a certain degree. Nanaksaris do consider Baba Nand Singh Jee and Baba Ishar Singh Jee as (nit) avatars of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. To write it in plain English, they think that Guru Nanak Dev Jee came down into the womb of a women and was born as Baba Ishar Singh Jee and Baba nand Singh Jee 400 years after Guru Nanak Dev Jee left his worldly body (Joti-Jot samouna). That is why they put pictures of the two Saints next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

“as for the langar being prepared outside the gurd

wara is highly unlikely”

“what i would like to know however is how 'nanaksaris' are betrayed the panth in 1984, as as a young child in 1995 going to a thath in delhi i remember temporary tents erected to accomodate those sikhs who lost homes during the riots and providing shelter and medical care.”

the late Baba Narain Singh leader of Nanaksar Kaleran (Ludhiana) betrayed the Panth in 1984 along with Nihang Chief Santa Singh by collaborating with Indira Gandhi. At least Santa Singh, Nihal Singh, (the late) Baba Mangal Singh Satlanee and Bikramjit Singh came to Akal Takht and asked for an apology. But the Nanaksari leader Baba Narain Singh did not even do that. Out of all the traitors during 84, the Nanaksari leader is the only one who did not come to seek forgiveness from the panth.

The documentary was good. But it did have some defects.

-It claimed that the 1978 Shaheeds died during a “street fight” with the Nirankari “sect”.

-Indira Gandhi tried but failed to “appease” the Sikhs. That in itself is very ridiculous. To begin with, when did she even try to appease the Sikhs? She was more harmful than her father Nehru.

Although the documentary mentions a few Hindus being killed before operation blue star, but it fails to mentioned that hundreds of Sikhs were already killed before operation blue star which is the primary reason why Sant Jernail Singh Jee Bhindrawalay use to tell the Sikhs to arm themselves.

It fails to mention the river water disputes, and how Punjabi land was awarded to Haryana and Himachal, not to mention how Punjab has to share its capital with Haryana.

The documentary tried to portray Sant Jarnial Singh Jee as an intolerant religious fanatic. Have you not noticed how the music would change into a very negative and spooky sound as soon as they showed Sant Jernail Singh Jee? This implied that Sant Jee was some how an evil entity.

The documentary also lacked good Sikh speakers. Kushwant Singh has admitted that he is an atheist. So he cannot be called a Sikh speaker. The only Sikh speakers on Sant Jernail Singh Jee Bhindrawalay they had were a few unqualified speakers from Mehta like Mohkam Singh. This documentary was made for the western viewer, and because of this the Sikh speakers on Sant Jee should also have been English speaking educated Sikhs like Dr Amerjit Singh Jee who can appeal to the non-Sikhs out there.

The last 20 minutes of the documentary were good. No complaints there. The inte

rviews with the Sikh victims was also good.

Bhain Jee, I don’t think you need a Sant/Saadh to guide you anywhere. All you need is the Aasra of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Guru Jee is the true vichola between you and Vaheguru as Parmatma can only be obtained through the grace of the Guru (Gurparsaad). Keep your rehet/Amritvela, go to the Gurdwara to do Sangat and do seva. That is all you need to do. Guru jee has made the rehet in such a way that it in itself is sufficient enough to guide you.

You have to understand that Sant/Saadh culture is a relatively modern phenomenon within Sikh history no older than a 100 years or so. How do you think the Sikhs before that got Darshan of Vaheguru? It was obviously because of the fact that they had faith in the rehet and not any man.

This man is just a turncoat. He is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Sikhs youths who he had convinced to fight for Khalistan. Now he himself is shamelessly involved in Indian politics. This man’s a disgrace to his people. Even during the days of militancy he would work against the Babbars because of his hate for the AKJ. I think that Taksal should publicly disown this traitor.

This traitor has been quoted as saying that he has full faith in the Indian constitution since his so called surrender.

Nirangana, all true Panthic organizations owe their allegiance to the Akal Takht. They may not agree with some parts of the SGPC maryadha, but overall they all respect the Akal Takht as supreme. If they did not fully respect the Akal Takht, then why would thousands of Sikhs attain Shaheedis after seeing the desecration of the Akal Takht by the GOI in 84? Obviously, they do owe their loyalties to the Akal Takht.

Khalistani, its one thing to add “Sant” to the name of a Sikh, but adding “brahm giani” is quite another. Let’s not use “Brahmgiani” as often as we use the word ‘Sant’. The word Brahm giani is not a title to be used in such a way. This is not an attack on those two Mahapursh, I respect them for the Bhagti they did, not to mention the Paath they also did. But lets not turn Brahm Giani into a title.

Also, they reason I have heard that they don’t use Nishan Sahibs is because they thought that the Nishan Sahib was something political associated with the Akali movement. But they forget that the Nishan Sahib is part of our heritage and parampara of our ancestors and not to be discarded just like that.

They don’t give too much importance to the Kakkars. One minute they wear it, but then they can take it off, and they don’t even consider it a sin.

Their old literature dating back to the times of the founders of Nanaksar do Nindya of a Mahapursh like Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindrawalay.

Don’t believe me then just take a look at the following link which is a story I translated last year from Nanaksari sources.

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.ppa?act=...gurbachan+singh

“and no veer je,t hey dont have their own guru

the first leader of nanaksar, brahm giani baba nand singh je, was a jathedar, or mukhi of naanaksar

like taksal has sant jarn

ail singh je and sant gurbachan singh je”

Actually this is not accurate. The Nanaksaris consider Baba Nand Singh Jee and Baba Ishar Singh Jee as (nit) avatars or incarnates of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee. In other words, they claim that Guru Nanak Dev Jee manifested himself into this world by taking birth as Baba Nand Singh Jee and Baba Ishar Singh Jee. Taksalis do not consider the Taksali Sants as avatars of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

Futhermore, worshiping pictures is totally contradictory to Gurmat. Such forms of idol worship are not allowed within Sikhism

I will PM you, so we can discuss this in private.

2) The ability to camouflage or go undercover is very important in any conflict. In previous conflicts (pre-1947) Sikhs historically could mix with local populas who dressed relatively the same, looked the same in the region of the Indian subcontinent. The lines of dress code between Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus werent too different from each other. But in modern warfare Sikhs are like walking targets, highly visible and standing out from the crowd in the current conflict area.

I have to agree with Gabroo. In the previous wars, Punjab was heavily forested. Now Punjab has no more forests/jungles. Environmental disaster.

-self edited-

due to requests from some people on this forum.

The reason why people are against Sants is not because of Maan Sinh. Maan Sinh was simply the straw that broke the camels back. I always hear followers of todays Sants i.e. derawalas claim their Sant is a Brahmgiani. Then I ask them, if your Sant is a Brahmgiani, then why did they fail to recognize the true nature of Maan Singh? After all one of the qualities of a Brahmgiani is that they have the power of Anter-gyaan, and Diviya-DrishTi i.e. divine knowledge and divine vision. Why didn’t they use their Antergian (if they had any!) to expose Maan Singh? Could it be that maybe these Sants most of whom are portrayed as “Brahmgianis” by their chelas are NOT Brahmgianis? Seems like so…

kuri_uk_de2000 and others, before defending the Nangs, please know what you are trying to defend. The following are beleifs supported by the Nangs originally posted by another forum member.

Nang Beliefs

- Sikhs are part of the 'hindu indian nation'

- Drinking isn't that big a deal, it's only a weakness, no effect on your amrit

- The bujjer kurehit is if you sleep with a muslim women. Other women are okay, it's only a weakness, not a bujjer kurehit

- Only cutting of kes from the head is a bujjer kurehit, hair on the rest of the body don't really count as kes (the nirnangulla then goes into detail describing body parts that sikh females apparently removed hair from - another made up X-rated story by the nirnangulla)

- women can't receive khanday kee pahul, they must shuck an inferior kirpan amrit administered by one singh, not by punj piaray

- bhang is great

- belief in ritualistic animal sacrifice

- sacrificed goats will be reborn as nihungs (this can result in an ugly cycle... as we know, gurbanee says that you will have to suffer what you make other living things suffer... so nang sacrifices goat, comes back as a goat. Goat becomes nang. This nang then sacrifices previous nang (now a goat)... as I said, ugly cycle)

- anointing the nishan saahib with blood from a sacrificed animal

- claim that the Singh Sabha and Gurdvara reform movements were backed by the British Government; that in fact, the mahants are t

he true caretakers of sikh shrines

- 84 holocaust was the fault of the sikhs, which is why their leader Santa Nihang then backed the GOI

- Guru Gobind Singh Jee used the colour blue as a sign of devotion to Shiva

- belief in hindu idols and gods

They try drawing in youth using 'shaster vidia'. They initially gave it some name like 'chatkaa gatkaa' and tried claiming that nobody else in the world knows this 'super secret super duper gatka' except for some UK raised nangs. Then they realized how stupid the name sounded and they changed it. Same bunch of losers with the same made up stories.

this man eats Paan(includes Nasha and Tamaku) and I think he even smokes. I can understand SGPC's reason for not allowing him to do Kirtan at Darbar Sahib.

I doubt Bhai Mardana Ji, Baba Farid Ji and Hazarat Mia Mir used Tamaku in any shape or form.

I think that it’s extremely cheap of the person to have a copyright or company/website logos on religious pictures. It just shows how Kanjoos they really are. Why don’t they want to share those pictures? Why have a copyright over religious pictures? What kind of a makhi-chooos person would do such a thing?

Jujharoo which part of my information did you think was not accurate? If you wish I can write it in more detail in order to convey my point. It’s not just my opinion, but surprisingly a lot of people believe this. DDT was started and founded by Sant Sunder Singh Jee. Is it any wonder that DDT is not mentioned in any of the puraatan granths like Suraj Prakash, Panth Prakash or even Mahan Kosh? Even historians like Hari Ram Gupta, Bhagat Singh, Khushwant Singh have not mentioned Damdami Taksal (Mehta, bhinderkala) as being puraatan. Other than Taksal no one else really believes in Taksals lineage.

Singh, just because some one does not believe that Taksal’s lineage is puraatan does not mean Taksal is any less significant. Taksal has done some great work, produced many great Singhs and Shaheeds. That is something to be proud of, not a false “lineage”.

Lineage doesn’t mean anything as far as Sikhism is concerned. Look at Budha Dal… they have lineage but they also eat meat, drink Bhang, believe in strange fairy tails, and not to mention the way they betrayed the Panth in 84! No matter how the Budha Dal shows off its lineage, it matters very little when compared to their negative points. In other words, lineage means nothing!

You shouldn’t get offended just because someone does not agree with some of Taksals points. Just because Taksal says Sant Jernail Singh Jee is alive, does that mean the rest of the Sikhs here should not even mention he is a “Shaheed” because it may offend you? Or should the rest of the Sikhs not say anything in favor of the Nanakshahi calander because it may offend you? Not everyone agrees 100% with Taksal… get over it…

>Instead of us arguing over Taksal’s history, why not concentrate on the UK Nangs who are a common threat to all Panthic thought. They think everyone who is not Sanatan is a heretic. They are the real enemies. They are the real heretics, you should feel offended because of them. Do you have any idea of what they think of the Taksal and it’s Shaheeds? What I wrote pales in comparison as to what they think of the Taksal. I atleast respect Taksal for the good work they have done on the past.

Immortal Singh, Damdami Taksal of today is not the same Taksal of Baba Deep Singh Jee. They are two separate entities. The Taksal that Baba Deep Singh Jee was the head of was finished in 1764 under the Jathadari of Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee. No ones was left to pass on the Jathadari.

But the Taksal claim that the next Jathadar after Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee was Baba Surat Singh Jee followed by his two sons, Bhai Gurdas Jee and Giani Sant Singh Jee. This family of Gianis is called Giani Vansh. They were not Nihang Singhs or part of Mist Shaheeda. Furthermore, Baba Surat Singh Jee was the founder of Giani Sampradha. They are a separate entity from Taksal of Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee which was finished in 1764.

According to the Taksal after Giani Sant Singh Jee, the next Jathadar was Baba Daya Singh Jee. But this cannot be, since it’s a historical fact that Giani Sant Singh Jee was succeeded by his son Bhai Gurmukh Singh Jee.

Takshal even claims Baba Bishan Singh Jee was its 10th Jathadar and succeeded Baba Harnam Singh Jee. That again is not accurate since Baba Bishan Singh Jee was the 2nd Jathadar of Dera Murala Sahib Sampradha and he succeeded Sant Amir Singh Jee.

The Taksal next claims that Sant Sundar Singh Jee succeeded Baba Bishan Singh Jee. But this cannot be since It was Baba Prem Singh Jee who succeeded Baba BIshan Singh Jee. Infact Sant Sundar Singh jee was not even a Shagird of Baba Bishan Singh Jee, he was a Shagird of a Nirmala Saint, Sant Gulab Singh.

I would also like to add that the current spiritual descendent of Baba Bishan Singh Jee is not Taksal of Mehta but Bibi Jagir Kaur chief of SGPC. She is the head of Dera Murala Sahib.

All this proves that Sant Sundar Singh Jee was the founder of Damdami Taksal of Bhinderkala and Mehta.

Taksal of Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee which was finished in 1764, Giani Vansh, Dera Murala Sahib and Damdami Taksal (Bhinderkala, and Mehta) are all separate entities, with different rehets and traditions.

For more information please visit the following link:

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.ppa?act=...hl=takshal&st=0