hajara

both of you are right i agree this damn india is working on next evil level.

i hope and pray khalsa raj comes fast , we must stay united in the face of rss and the indian groups.

kandola few sgpc sevedars are doin a wicked job in parchar, but heres a big chunk of people that need it who just aint getting it. imagine instead of rss brainwashing if these simple minds are brainwashed the right way with naam simran and gurbani. i reckon sikhs shud do parchar in chumar strongholds that leads to the potential of india coming down into two pieces minimum . the indian gov and major right wing hindu groups have treated the chumars with serf status but the potential of a khalsa raj across india still stands if numbers are created then grouping into strategic areas.

the indian gov is very wrong khalsa ji the list is very long, it is no friend of the punjab never was, which is why punjabis must rely on themselves and form together regroup and take what belongs to it when they are strong enough. the more combined strentgh the better it is.

kandola took the words out of my mouth. Here you have a massive 35% of india thats left to rot in backward life no education no hope , limited thought processes left gullible in the face of manipulation. Thats what happens when their faced with rejection from society wherever they turned for thousands of years including being unceremoniously kiked away from sikhism due to their living conditions and caste. Why are the rss getting to these tribes? where are the sikh missionaries why hasnt sikhi been taken to these people in todays age? why isnt sikhi taken where its really needed? theres a revolution waiting to happen in india it would be a dream come true if 35% of india became sikhs.

The dalits have not even realised their full potential in the nomadic lives some of them lead in different regions of india which various khalistani leaders have not only taken note of but written on check khalistan.net and the newly formed srimoni khalsa dal article. There is a verse by Guru Gobind Singh on the dalits along the lines of "rangrettas". One of the original panj pyarey was an untouchable before he took amrit from Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Theres two sides to dalits in india its not all about rss

check this link on 5 dalits slaughtered over some cow 5 human lives were cheaper than a cow?

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-cow.htm

Daljit Singh Founds New Party on Idealism and Activism

Press Release: Sikh Shahadat

A few weeks ago through a public appeal Sardar Daljit

Singh, who is currently incarcerated in the Nabha

jail, implored the Sikh community to build consensus

and unite behind a common vision for the Panth. In

response to this call, well-wishers of the Khalsa

panth convened meetings to discuss the serious

contemporary issues facing the Sikh community. Efforts

were also made to reach out to all individuals who

preserved deep affection and concern for the Panth,

but had chosen to resign all involvement in Sikh

political affairs. Relevant intellectuals and

academicians were also consulted, as were Sikh

brothers currently held in Indian jails. Individuals,

who may live in other parts of the world, but have an

enduring interest in the welfare of the Sikh nation,

the sub-continent and indeed the world, also

contributed to the deliberations.

In light of these discussions a consensus emerged for

the formation of a new political party. This party

would take its inspiration from Gurbaani and Sikh

history, and in recognition of contemporary national

and international events, offer principled leadership

to the Sikh community. A name for this party was also

actively discussed and eventually a consensus emerged

that the party should be called the Shiromani Khalsa

Dal.

Another consensual decision was that Daljit Singh, who

has been in Nabha Jail for the last eight years and

was the former president of the Sikh Student

Federation, should be chosen as the party’s President.

Following this selection, Daljit Singh suggested

the

outline of a basic structure for the party that will

be realized in his absence by a working committee,

which will include:

1. Jaspal Singh Dhillon

2. Swarn Singh Khalsa

3. Manjinder Singh Ishi

4. Jagdish Sigh Malhi

5. Surinderpal Singh

6. Narain Singh

7. Surinder Singh Kishanpur

8. Ravinder Singh Jammu

The objective of the party will be the Halemi Raaj

that is clearly revealed by the Guru Granth Sahib, the

lives of the Sikh Gurus and the history of the Khalsa

Panth. The Sikh nation has established sovereign rule

at different times in history, and established formal

political and diplomatic relations with other nations

of the world. Both the non-violent and the militant

struggles of the recent past are testimony to this

historical aspiration for a free and independent

country. The establishment of a free, sovereign, and

separate Khalsa State will therefore be the primary

objective of the Shiromani Khalsa Dal. The states

established by Baba Banda Singh Bahadar and Maharaja

Ranjit Singh are revealing historical examples of the

type of state that the Shiromani Khalsa Dal aspires

to, where the concept of Sarbat da bhala (the welfare

of all), irrespective of religion, caste and colour,

will find practical expression. The Shiromani Khalsa

Dal will remain faithful and committed to this concept

of the Sikh Gurus, and will endeavor to realize it

through peaceful and democratic ways. Thus the

Shiromani Khalsa Dal will work with all minorities of

the Indian sub-continent including the Dalits,

Christians and Muslims.

The Shiromani Khalsa Dal will also work with the

oppressed Hindus of the sub-continent who have

suffered at the hands of either upper castes, or

fanatical adherents of sanitized interpretations of

Hinduism, such as the Arya Samaj and the RSS.

The Shiromani Khalsa Dal will actively oppose

communalism and homogenization of the Indian

sub-conti

nent succinctly captured in insidious

policies like “one country, one people, one culture,

one language.” The sub-continent, which was once an

exquisite mosaic of diverse cultures, languages,

religions, and even nations, has virtually been

obliterated. The Shiromani Khalsa Dal will make common

cause with and form relationships with all those

peoples, nations and cultures, both in the current

Indian framework and in other parts of the world, that

are currently seeking independence, sovereignty and

freedom. These people include, but are not limited to,

the Nagas, Mizos, Tamils, Kashmiris, Chakmas, Assamese

and Tibetans.

The sub-continent cries out for a new political setup

that is not the legacy of colonialism, or the

neo-fascist expression of ideologies such as Hindutva.

Daljit Singh and the Shiromani Khalsa Dal appeal to

all those individuals and families who have played a

historical role on behalf of the Sikh community in the

struggles of the last two decades to join this

historical effort. Many of these individuals and

families have chosen to back out of the struggle for

various reasons. Daljit Singh not only welcomes all

such well-wishers of the Panth, but petitions for

their active participation as it will be critical for

the confidence and spirit ascendant of the Shiromani

Khalsa Dal. Daljit Singh recognized that these

families and individuals are unforgettable pillars

upon who the edifice of Sikh history rests, and

earnestly asks that they actively participate with the

Shiromani Khalsa Dal to help realize Panthic

aspirations. The Shiromani Khalsa Dal especially

beseeches the poor and the Dalits for they will be a

critical part of the Dal’s efforts to realize a free

society where every individual can realize his or her

potential.

The party made a proverbial call to empower young

people to become active in politics and use the

political forum for positive change. It is important

tha

t young people become engaged in political

discussions and policy making and are not left

disenchanted by the fact that until now there has been

no ethical forum to reflect their views...In the

Shiromani Khalsa Dal they will now have a platform to

express their aspirations and hopes. The youth will

form the backbone of the party and through their

dedication and idealism they will help realize not

only Sikh rights, but a brighter future for the entire sub-continent.

jains were a successful lot they worked hard, established bussineses in gujerat. then India is formed, the first thing nerhu bander does is publicice privatised industries the jains built in gujerat, jains were robbed of their hard earned capital their families built. The jains were signed over as hindus by nehru . You think jains will talk about loving expereinces of hindus ?

lolllll me bowing me head to a murti? sorry khalsa bir you need to work more harder than that look at my posts there in front of sangats eyes to show who and what i respect guru granth sahib.

stop accusing me of using rss propaganda you liar sharm ondhi ah sikha di sangat vich bhaitkai choot boldah? before you raise accusations like that show me which part you reckon is rss propaganda then we will take it next step. dont lie here just because your gunth you started isnt gettin you anywhere.

Rochak & Hajaras objection is that I have used a Muslim website to gather information on the Hindu religion. Does it matter where we get the information as long as its correct and helps us in warding off the RSS attack on our religion?

objection lol. noooooo.listen gurbani is a language which some sikhs understand right? as punjabi spoken 500 years back is not exactly same as punjabi spoken nowdays.

how can an arab interpret gurbani without practical terminology studying the lingo first? wudnt the translations come out wrong? so how can a muslim interpret old time indian languages unless they are learned in them? and if they are they wud state that for authenticity source purposes.

it does matter where u get ur data from from if its not correct as equal consent is not rape for a start.

rss is gov sponsored doin the same ting dey do will get u nowhere. think long term with rss not short term make more sikhs everywhere . preaching sikhi is a successful counter medicine to any form of rss.

Some people on this forum give an impression that they are converting to Sikhi but still are Hindu at the core of their hearts, so much so that they will not even accept Guru sahibs bani if its attacking their Hindu Gods. Guru sahib doesnt consider Ram and Krishna to be incarnations of God.

i seen more sikh qualities in rochak than i seen in some here who jus wana poke fun, yeh he might be a convert but at least he resonates sikhi through his words his saying stick to bani and you call that hindu at core of his heart? are we missing something here? lol.

khalsa in what position are you to say me or rochak is rejecting the bani you gave?

the facts are clear now you have twisted bani tried a match from mutual consent to rape, and your asking me and rochak to accept that? when we dont we r rss?you are guilty here!

bani says many things from different angles on the same topic. thats why the bottom line is stick to bani mate Gods word and open your mind up to the whole topic not just one bit that puts a smile on your face. jeez where the damn smoking world have i or rochak claimed ram or krishna are incarnations of God? But you cant deny they meditated as bani says on God to get their powers.

when did i or rochak claim hindu gods are mine or his? lol God is One mate the rest are not praiseworthy .

For all the RSS sympathisers and those who pretent to be Sikhs but still are Hindu at the core of their hearts, I present one incident from the Hindu scriptures and which is also mentioned by Guru Nanak sahib.

LORD INDRA RAPES GAUTAMA'S WIFE

".... Indra raped Ahalya and was cursed by her husband, the sage Gautama, to lose all his prosperity ...." -- Brahmavaivarta Purana 4:47:11-45.

goqmu qpw AihilAw iesqRI iqsu dyiK ieMdRü luBwieAw ]

gotham thapaa ahiliaa eisathree this dhaekh ei(n)dhra lubhaaeiaa ||

Ahalyaa was the wife of Gautam the seer. Seeing her, Indra was enticed.

shs srIr ichn Bg hUey qw min pCoqwieAw ]1]

sehas sareer chihan bhag hooeae thaa man pashhothaaeiaa ||1||

When he received a thousand marks of disgrace on his body, then he felt regret in his mind. ||1||

lol at " rss sympathisers" your giving 1 line to suit your one sided distorted view i come back and give you ten more giving you a dissectional aspect from the same Guru and im rss? man you would do serious damage in a court jury

rss persons is someone whos trying to convert others to hindus. Please show us where and how i have don ethat?.

Your definitions interpretations are hazy and you yourself are becoming paranoid even after recieving 10 more bani lines on the topics you started. Yove even missd the lines from Bhai Gurdas ji vara i stated which are the chabbi to Guru Granth sahib which talk about krishna and ram into detail. I sat here the day namdharis came who attacked sikhi please read my posts on the namdhari thread to see how much of an rss i am .

pretending to be sikhs but are hindus? lol your havin a lagh aint ya? now you show me how much more of a sikh you are than me? well! and how old are you? whats in you that isnt in me? is there milk running through your blood and dirt in mine?you come here all fired up with your third sources from jains bust out with one line from bani but even that failed to match with your jain sources, and ignore the rest only the one that suits you will do. yes you must be a better sikh than all of us put together.

Hindu at the core of their hearts? lolllll bruv wake up smell the coffee go into bani get your mind in that your the one sucked by some jain at the moment. You wanna get rid of the brahminst practices creeping in sikhism huh? then perhaps wed better look closer to home henah? um caste gurdwaras including the hegomy caste dominance of singh sabha, akali dal seats, defining a fine line between idol worshipping and revering gurbani, caste marriages? see nobody wants to get rid of this kind of brahminism its only the rss bits where its ok to them so they can feed their ego a lil.

you crack me up 60 million poor chumars were kicked away from sikhism last century like they were not human beings now aint that hinduism or brahminist ancient practices to reject a massive group of people because of their jaat? something they cud not help ? but cos you think your singh sabha idols were blotless you come back denieing history trying to sweep i

t under the mat even after i gave you the sources. maybe im the one who can learn from your amazing bir ras.

khalsa mate you just done your besti again and twisted it as a rape when it was mutual consumation lol. no one here worships indra man i dont know what you think your gonna achieve by posting that up i cudnt care less what or who indra is but i am concerned when you are trying to back twisted propag with 1 line of bani in which that too didnt work. why not give the whole subject matter in context from other parts of gurbani to say sangat this is what guru granth sahib ji says from a bigger context?

LORD INDRA RAPES GAUTAMA'S WIFE

".... Indra raped Ahalya and was cursed by her husband, the sage Gautama, to lose all his prosperity ...." -- Brahmavaivarta Purana 4:47:11-45.

goqmu qpw AihilAw iesqRI iqsu dyiK ieMdRü luBwieAw ]

gotham thapaa ahiliaa eisathree this dhaekh ei(n)dhra lubhaaeiaa ||

Ahalyaa was the wife of Gautam the seer. Seeing her, Indra was enticed.

shs srIr ichn Bg hUey qw min pCoqwieAw ]1]

sehas sareer chihan bhag hooeae thaa man pashhothaaeiaa ||1||

When he received a thousand marks of disgrace on his body, then he felt regret in his mind. ||1||

khalsa bir again thank you for the one out of many qoutes on indra in guru granth sahib however you missed more on the subject.

As mentioned before Guru Sahib talkes about dieties in various tones in guru granth sahib ji in one hand they are nothing helpless waiting for death as a normal human, doing gahltis, in another they are given a place as meditating upon God it is important to see the various sides as opposed to the one khal

sa bir provides who attempting to show a static position as well as misrepresenting data from a third source claiming indra "raped" ahilya, however the guru granth sahib states "lust overpowereed her" in the first example given below.

This is why i keep saying khalsa look at the guru granth sahib ji and if your third sources do not tally with that your making a joke out yourself. Then out of your paranoid fury your accusing me of being rss but you left yourself open to question interpreting "equal consumation" as "rape".???hmm whats is the dictionary reference of rape? .

Now going by your description of accusing everyone of being rss just because they wont accept one line as a final answer and give you back more info from the same source from varied angles than just 1 line you give we too cud say your rss whom rejects 10 more examples of gurbani, who is more rss by your own definitions here than me or you? lol

fyi i aint even seen one hindu who worships indra.

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

gotham naar ahiliaa thisano(n) dhaekh ei(n)dhr lobhaanaa||

Ahalya was wife of Gautam. But when she set eyes Indhar, the king of gods, lust overpowered her.

par gar jaae saraap lai hoe sehas bhag pashhothaanaa||

He entered their house, got curse of being with thousands of pudendums and repented.

su(n)n(j)aa hoaa ei(n)dhralok lukiaa saravar man sharamaanaa||

The Indralok (abode of Indr) became desolate and getting ashamed of himself he hid in a pond.

sehas bhagahu loein sehas lai(n)adhoee ei(n)dhrapuree sidhhaanaa||

On revocation of the curse when all those holes became eyes, only then he returned to his habitat.

sathee sathahu(n) ttal silaa hoe nadhee kinaarae baajh paraanaa||

Ahalya who could not remain steadfast in her chastity became stone and remained lying on the river bank

raghupath charan shhuha(n)dhiaa chalee suragapur banae bibaanaa|

|

Touching the (holy) feet of Ram she was lifted to the heavens.

bhagath vashhal bhalaaeeahu(n) pathith oudhhaaran paap kamaanaa||

Because of His benevolence He is mother-like to the devotees and being forgiver of the sinners He is called redeemer of the fallen ones.

gunano(n) gun sabhako karai aougan keethae gun this jaanaa||

Doing good is returned by good gestures always, but he who does good to the evil is known as virtuous.

avigath gath kiaa aakh vakhaanaa ||aa||

How can I explain the greatness of that unmanifest (Lord).

1)This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Jap on Pannaa 6

gaavehi ei(n)dh eidhaasan bait(h)ae dhaevathiaa dhar naalae ||

ndra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.

gaavehi sidhh samaadhhee a(n)dhar gaavan saadhh vichaarae ||

The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.

2)This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maajh on Pannaa 130

saadhhik sidhh jisai ko firadhae ||

The One who is sought by the Siddhas and the seekers,

brehamae ei(n)dhr dhhiaaein hiradhae ||

upon whom Brahma and Indra meditate within their hearts,

ott thaetheesaa khojehi thaa ko gur mil hiradhai gaavaniaa ||2||

whom the three hundred thirty million demi-gods search for-meeting the Guru, one comes to sing His Praises within the heart. ||2||

3)This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 347

gaavanih thudhhano eesar brehamaa dhaevee sohan thaerae sadhaa savaarae ||

Shiva and Brahma and the Goddess Parvaati, so beautiful and ever adorned by You, sing to You.

gaavanih thudhhano ei(n)dhr ei(n)dhraasan bait(h)ae dhaevathiaa dhar naalae ||

The Indras, seated upon their celestial thrones, with the deities at Your Gate, sing to You.

gaavanih thudhhano sidhh samaadhhee a(n)dhar gaavanih thudhhano saadhh beechaarae

||

The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing to You, and the Holy Saints, in their contemplative meditation, sing to You.

4)This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 455

kott ei(n)dhr anaek dhaevaa japath suaamee jai jai kaar ||

Millions of Indras and countless gods and super-human beings meditate on the Lord Master and celebrate His Praises.

anaathh naathh dhaeiaal naanak saadhhasa(n)gath mil oudhhaar ||2||

The Merciful Lord is the Master of the masterless, O Nanak; joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, one is saved. ||2||

5)This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gujri on Pannaa 500

breham lok ar rudhr lok aaee ei(n)dhr lok thae dhhaae ||

come running here.

saadhhasa(n)gath ko johi n saakai mal mal dhhovai paae ||1||

But she cannot touch the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; she washes and massages their feet.

6)This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Dayv Gandhaaree on Pannaa 534

raaj n chaaho mukath n chaaho man preeth charan kamalaarae ||

I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

breham mehaes sidhh mun ei(n)dhraa mohi t(h)aakur hee dharasaarae ||1||

Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas, the silent sages and Indra - I seek only the Blessed Vision of my Lord and Master's Darshan. ||1||

7)This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 998

poun paanee baisa(n)thar ddarapai ddarapai ei(n)dhra bichaaraa ||1||

Wind, water and fire abide in the Fear of God; poor Indra abides in the Fear of God as well.

eaekaa nirabho baath sunee ||

I have heard one thing, that the One Lord alone is fearless.

8)This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Saarang on Pannaa 1232

sanak sanaadh brehamaadh ei(n)dhraadhik bhagath rathae ban aaee ||

Sanak and Sa

nandan, Brahma and Indra, were imbued with devotional worship, and came to be in harmony with Him.

naanak har bin gharee n jeevaa(n) har kaa naam vaddaaee ||8||1||

O Nanak, without the Lord, I cannot live, even for an instant. The Name of the Lord is glorious and great. ||8||1||

i dont think you understand khalsa rss dont give a cats whiskers about religion you can do the same gunth they do all day long 1 your just making yourself look no better than them 2 put yourself in their shoes they do propg not 4 religion but for dodgy reasons they dont giv a toss about principles do you think their gonna be praying lol. most of india is rural unpahd this gives rss the perfect chance.

look their annoying people heartless horrible twisted stay away from them cos youl jus feel like killin em. whatever good you can do in the limited time guru ji gives in this jeevan benefit the sikh quam the rss are never going to back off in their nasha backed by a halimi raj. they think they own everything. This will only change when the day of the khalsa comes. The time when the khalsa take charge , take what rightfully belongs to it as per the rightful heir of india with its 92% pre india sacrifices. Thats when the rss which is built neither on naam bani or ras will evaporate when the khalsa comes together and thunders.

in order for that practically step by step we need numbers, unity look around what we got? we need to build upon each other as a community strentgh pull into one direction. Ladder singh mate you cant climb the top until u take the first few steps, thats why seva parchar comes first that kind of seva that will bring our lost brothers and sisters to the fold of sikhi, when as a community we are strong enough the Khalsa will take what belongs to it thats the whole of india as per the khalsa sacrifices.

you can in your bir ras go bombay kill a few shiv senas, run a few websites exposing vedas lol whats that gonna achieve? or

seva of the right thing that produces more sikhs where its really needed thats more valuable in the long run for the sikh community so we collectively can move towards the panthic goal.

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

i just found a mistake on the website

http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=3

Why doesn't your religion agree with or mention semitic history?

perhaps sikhi dont agree with semitic history but it does mention adam in guru granth sahib ji

baabaa aadham ko kishh nadhar dhikhaaee ||

He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,

auin BI iBsiq GnyrI pweI ]2]

oun bhee bhisath ghanaeree paaee ||2||

who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2||

idl Klhlu jw kY jrd rU bwnI ]

dhil khalehal jaa kai jaradh roo baanee ||

Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed.

Coif kqyb krY sYqwnI ]

shhodd kathaeb karai saithaanee ||

They

have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=4140

?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

so you do what ur opponent does in order to gain some victory?

what about sikh ideals? ok the rss are doing evil badmouthing should we do the same to?

whats the best way to defeat rss? learn sikhi, live by it, spread by example do parchar of the right thing.

rss twist bani, shud we do the same too? vedas are in sanskrit can u understand it? i cant, hence we rely on interpretations. I would rather rely on guru granth sahib.

there are places where the vedas are entirely dismissed in gurbani as im sure we all know the popular ones here are some of the lesser known ones allow me to start with a qoute from the geeta declaring opposition to veds.

1) when your mind is no longer bewildered by the flowery language of the Vedas, and when it remains fixed in the trance of Self-realization, then you will have attained the divine consciousness (Geetaa, 2.53).

2)byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI]eyku AKru jo gurmuiK j

wpY iqs kI inrml soeI: One may read all the books of the Vedas and Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.), the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation (sggs 747).

3)byd biKAwn krq swDU jn BwghIn smJq nhI Klu]pRym Bgiq rwcy jn nwnk hir ismrin dhn Bey ml: The Holy Saints preach the teachings of the Vedas, but the unfortunate fools do not understand them. Servant Nanak is absorbed in Prema-Bhagti (loving devotional worship); meditating on God, one’s inner pollution is burnt away (sggs 717).

4)isMimRiq swsq byd bIcwry]jpIAY nwmu ijqu pwir auqwry: The Simritees, Shaastras and Vedas reflect that with the Naam Japa you will be saved and carried across (sggs 804).

5)swDo rwm srin ibsrwmw]byd purwn pVy ko ieh gun ismry hir ko nwmw: O Saadhus, rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on God's Name (sggs 220).

6)piV piV poQI isMimRiq pwTw]byd purwx pVY suix Qwtw]ibnu rs rwqy mnu bhu nwtw: You may read, recite and study the scriptures, the Simritees, Vedas and Puraanas; but without being imbued with the Divine Essence, the mind wanders endlessly (sggs 226).

7)Do not say that the Vedas and the Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.) are false. Those who do not reflect and contemplate them are false (sggs 1350).

8)EAMkwir byd inrmey: Onkaari Beda nirmaye: God created the Vedas (sggs 930).

9)suixAY swsq isimRiq vyd]nwnk Bgqw sdw ivgwsu: Listening—the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss (sggs 2)

you are entitled to show any mirror you wish just remember as i stated previously this rss crap is about politics. Try talking to an rss their not interested in anything you say their there to push propaganda . Instead of countering using the same ganth a sikh shud carry fwd with sikh ideals, network with other sikh groups regardless of jathas, castes e

tc, do parchar to youth with pyar on sikh issues.

Rss are laffing they aint like u. you take it to heart they twist bani n think il show em back. but dey want control and rss propag is der medium tool to achieve that goal. in the path of that goal countless millions of people have been killed swept under the carpet, women raped people lost their homes. what religion principles ar rss living by then? you get me? you can blast da hell out of hindus dey dont care all dey want is power religion dont mean jak to dem. wake up khalsa bir

Hajara ji,

Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /puranas and also

the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

Saachi Saakhi? of S. Kapur Singh ICS

Around 1935-36, Dr. Ambedkar, the unchallenged leader of the 60 million untouchables in India, openly expressed the desire that all untouchables of India join Sikhism to rid themselves of the thousand of years of serfdom imposed by the caste-system. Hindu leaders like Dr. Munje, President of Hindu Mahasabha, and Pandit Malviya, the eminent Sanatanist Hindu leader were totally agreeable to this plan. Copies of Dr. Ambedkar?s correspondence w

ith these Hindu leaders were regularly brought to the notice of Gandhi. When Gandhi realised that the matter was close to finality, he released the whole correspondence in his newspaper ?Young India? without the permission of any one of them against all norms of civilized behaviour, warning the untouchables that, ?Joining Sikhism like this would permanently condemn them to apostasy from Hinduism.?

After this, Dr. Ambedkar opened a direct dialogue with Sikh leaders to achieve his purpose, and this news spread throughout the country that the untouchables were on the verge of joining Sikhism. This is the time when foundation of Khalsa College, Bombay was laid so that it could function as the centre for the education of the untouchables of Southern India.

Dr. Ambedkar was considered the uncrowned king of the Indian Dalits (untouchables). He was a great nationalist and was an important leader of Indian National Congress. His contributions in framing the Indian Constitution are well known. Before he joined Buddhism, there were hardly any Indian Buddhist left; his followers who joined Buddhism are known as Neo-Buddhists.

Master Tara Singh began his career as a small time Akali worker during Gurdwara Sudhar (Reforms) or Akali Movement of the nineteen twenties, but had soon risen to become the uncrowned king of the Panthic affairs due to his political dexterity. However, before he passed away, he had to retire to political ignominy when, to save his life, he was forced to renege from his vows, declared upon formal ardas, that unless the Govt. of India announced creation of Punjabi Suba (Province), by the day set by him, he would, after a long hunger strike, immolate himself in Agani Kunds which had specially been erected at the Akal Takhat. The GOI never kept the date, nor did the Master ji immolate himself ? but his political life got immolated in the process

When in 1925, at the time of creation of Gurdwara Act, two groups came into being lead by Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Sing

h and Master Tara Singh respectively, Giani Kartar Singh, Master Tara Singh, Ishar Singh Majhail etc., the leaders of ?Akali Party?, found out that the ?educated? amongst the Sikhs, the product of the British education were tied to ?Gentleman?s Conduct? of behaviour and were averse and afraid of physical violence, abusive altercations and snatching or loosing of turbans. The best way to get such people out of the way for good from Sikh congregations, societies, meetings and Panthic service sphere was to expose them to the culture of abusive language and physical violence, which would force these ?educated? spineless persons to immediately wash their hands from the Panth and ?Akali Party?.

?This strategy forced Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Singh to give up ?Akali Party? and retire to his home, forced Baba Kharak Singh away from Panthic affairs, defeated and humiliated S. Amar Singh of ?Shere Punjab? and ultimately forced the Sikh intellectuals and the new educated progressive Sikh youth into the lap of Communism.

Dr. Ambedkar was himself a great strategist. He had understood that in the mid twentieth century, after the British left India, the principles and historical development of Sikhism alone could liberate the untouchables from their downtrodden condition, but could also bring around the predominance of the untouchables all over India for centuries to come. Dr. Ambedkar was not any lesser strategist than Mr. Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi.

But by 60 million untouchables joining Sikhism, ?Akali Party? would have lost its dominance and monopoly over the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, and Sardar Baldev Singh would have lost his Sikh representation in the Central Government.

?When the ?Akali Party? realised this problem then after deep consultation they unanimously decided to permanently block the entry of Dr. Ambedkar and his 60 million untouchable fellows.

?At this moment, the ?Brain of the Panth?, Giani Kartar Singh suggested that, ?It was not difficult to deal w

ith these educated people. They are not capable of withstanding even the first blow.

?With this background, Master Sujan Singh Sarhali was sent to Bombay to meet Dr. Ambedkar, and he in turn told Dr. Ambedkar plainly that he was a ?Chuhra?, and told him what the Akali Party thought of the moral conduct of his mother, and served him with the ultimatum that either he should join Sikhism within 24 hours or else the Panth would deal sternly with him.

Hearing this pure ?Akali Language?, Dr. Ambedkar made the same decision any other educated person would have made.

?He assured the ?Akali Party? through Master Tara Singh that neither he nor any of his followers had any mind to even come near the Sikhs or Sikhi.

?Thus was saved the ?Panthic Leadership?, as well as the hegemony of Sardar Baldev Singh.

S. Jangbahadur Singh editor of the eminent Sikh weekly, ?Shere Punjab? which was published by the renowned Sikh intellectual and politician S. Amar Singh from Lahore for 20-25 years, and which after him has been regularly publishing from Delhi by his son Jangbahadur Singh, writes on page 99 of the ?Diamond Jubilee Number? (1911-1971) about the reasons of Dr. Ambedkar?s frustration from Sikh circles based on the personal knowledge and evidence of his father:

?On Baisakhi Day of 1939, Dr. Ambedkar participated in the all India Sikh Mission Conference in Amritsar along with his supporters wearing a turban, and to demonstrate his decision to join 60 million untouchables into Sikhism, he made his nephew partake amrit to become a Khalsa Sikh. The delight S. Amar Singh felt at the prospects of increasing the numbers of Sikhs by 60 million within his lifetime can be seen from his writings. But soon Master Tara Singh adopted such policy that Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers would not come near the Sikhs or Sikhism. ? Unfortunately for the Panth, Master Tara Singh developed the apprehension that if Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers became Sikhs, then Dr. Ambedka

r would become the sole leader of Panth and Master Tara Singh would loose his glory. At that time S. Amar Singh wrote in the ?Shere Punjab?, that, ?For the advancement of the Panth of Guru Gobind Singh, who had sacrificed whole of his family over the Khalsa, we should be prepared to sacrifice our

whole families to say nothing of political power or riches.?

In 1936, elections to the Bombay Legislative Assembly were to be held. Considering the Sikhs as his brotherhood, Dr. Ambedkar sent message to Master Tara Singh that he had the chances of becoming the Chief Minister of Bombay State by leading his Party to victory, and asked the Panth in Punjab to extend financial help of twenty five thousand to him. Master Tara Singh found this as a golden opportunity to turn Dr. Ambedkar away from Sikhism and Panth. He came to S. Amar Singh in the Lahore office of ?Shere Punjab? and said, ?Look at this Ambedkar, he is asking money from the Sikhs.? Amar Singh ji replied, ?What are you talking about Master ji? If Dr. Ambedkar were merely looking for money, he could raise crores from Muslims or Christians, why should he turn to Sikhism? He is just asking for a small amount as a gesture of brotherhood. It doesn?t behove of us to suspect his intentions.? Master ji immediately changed his tone, ?I was just afraid that you would oppose me in the All India Sikh Mission if I gave thi

s amount. But now that you have also approved of it, I will send this amount to Dr. Ambedkar tomorrow itself.? S. Amar Singh told him with folded hands, ?Look, don?t procrastinate, in fact send him Rs. 50,000 instead of 25,000.?

?Anyway, Master ji drew the money from the account of All India Sikh Mission, but instead of sending a draft or cheque, gave the whole money to his protégé Master Sujan Singh Sarhali, and sent a message to S. Amar Singh that the money had been sent to Dr. Ambedkar. It came out after the elections that the money was lost in the way and not a penny was let reach Dr. Ambedkar. Instead, to further antagonize D

r. Ambedkar against Sikhism, taunts were thrown his way that he had tried to fleece money from Sikhs.

-- (From the Original in Urdu)?

?This money was neither re-deposited in the account of All India Sikh Mission, nor did it reach Dr. Ambedkar. It came to the uses of Master Sujan Singh and Master Tara Singh (Master Sujan Singh ate Master Tara Singh ji de hathin Guru laikhai lag gaye)

(n.b. i did not claim all chumars converted to buddhism, but i have based upon the sources above claimed that 60 million chumars were opting for sikhism.)

Hajara ji,

  Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /pur

anas and also the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

teeek ah i get what ur saying i have seen countless ambedkar dalit sena writings but gurbani comes first. The chabbi of guru granth sahib ji bhai gurdas ji vara tell us what and who krishna and ram was. im not saying worship them thats wrong as the message of gurbani is to praise only God yet the same God from where both dieties got their power. In gurbani in places these dieties are considered dust as you have correctly stated but in other parts they have been given a place but th

e bottom point is not to worship them but at the same time these essays by ambedkar go too far , now try weigh that up with bani. Raja Janak was a saint hes ramas father in law, in one of the ambedkar articles its claimed ram pimped sita, but what does bani say about rama? Bhai Gurdas ji vara also state the past happenings were not myths but real, again give me time i shall produce for u.

Hajara ji,

   Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /puranas a

nd also the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

no problemoh thank you for reading my post. Its good you have qouted one out of many shabads in guru granth sahib on krishna and ram. I would like to clarify my position i am not here to merge sikhi to hindus , i mann sikhi in its gurmat form, im disgusted with rss zeolots. However there are numerous qoutes missed listed below on the subject of ram and krishna as u previously stated some which reduce these dieties to mere dust in others they are talked about in the following context -

r>1)

This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390

sqjuig qY mwixE CilE bil bwvn BwieE ]

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

qRyqY qY mwixE rwmu rGuvMsu khwieE ]

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuva(n)s kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

duAwpuir ik®sn murwir kMsu ikrqwrQu kIE ]

dhuaapur kirasan muraar ka(n)s kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

augRsYx kau rwju ABY Bgqh jn dIE ]

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kiljuig pRmwxu nwnk guru AMgdu Amru khwieE ]

kalijug pramaan naanak gur a(n)gadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sRI gurU rwju Aibclu Atlu Awid puriK PurmwieE ]7]

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command oThis Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390

2)This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 338

lakh chouraaseeh jeea jon mehi bhramath na(n)dh bahu thhaako rae ||

Wandering through 8.4 million incarnations, Krishna's father Nand was totally exhausted.

bhagath haeth avathaar leeou hai bhaag baddo bapuraa ko rae ||1||

Because of his devotion, Krishna was incarnated in his home; how great was the good

fortune of this poor man!

3)This Shabad is by Bhagat Naam Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 345

thaareelae ganikaa bin roop kubijaa biaadhh ajaamal thaareealae ||

You saved the prostitute, and the ugly hunch-back; You helped the hunter and Ajaamal swim across as well.

charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae ||

The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

4)This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1040

guramath kirasan govaradhhan dhhaarae ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, Krishna lifted up the mountain of Govardhan.

guramath saaeir paahan thaarae ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, Rama floated stones across the ocean.

5)This Shabad is by Guru Raam Daas Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 165

kirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavaikirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavai ||

Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5780

7)This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

AweI pwpix pUqnW duhIN QxIN ivhu lwie vhylI]

aaee paapan poothanaa(n) dhuhee(n) thhanee(n) vihu laae vehaelee||

The ill-reputed Putana applied poison on both of her .

Awie bYTI prvwr ivc nyhuM lwei nvhwix nvylI]

aae bait(h)ee paravaar vich naehu(n) laaea inavehaan navaelee||

She came to the family (of Nand) and started to express her newfound love for the family.

kuCV ley goibMd rwie kir cytk cqurMg mhylI]

kushharr leae gobi(n)dh raae kar chaettak chathura(n)g mehaelee||

Through her clever deception, she lifted Krishna in her lap.

mohx mOmy pwieEn bwhr AweI grb ghylI]

mohan maamae paaeioun baahar aaee garab gehaelee||

With great pride she pressed her . in the mouth of Krishna and came out.

dyh vDwie aucwienu iqh cirAwr nwr ATKylI]

dhaeh vadhhaae ouchaaein thih chariaar naar at(h)akhaelee||

Now she expanded her body to a great extent.

iqh loAW dw Bwr dy cMmiVAw gl hoie duhylI]

thih loaaa(n) dhaa bhaar dhae cha(n)marriaa gal hoe dhuhaelee||

Krishna also becoming the full weight of the three worlds hung from and stuck to her neck.

Kwie pCwV phwV vWg jwie peI EjwV DkylI]

khaae pashhaarr pehaarr vaa(n)g jaae pee oujaarr dhhakaelee||

Getting unconscious, and like a mountain she fell down into the forest.

kIqI mwaU qul shylI ]òò]

keethee maaoo thul sehaelee ||aa||

Krishna liberated her at last and gave her status of equal to his mother’s friend.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5781

9)This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

jwie suqw prBws ivc gofy auqy pYr pswry]

jaae suthaa parabhaas vich goddae outhae pair pasaarae||

At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

crx kml ivc pdm hY iJliml JlkY vWgI qwry]

charan kamal vich padham hai jhilamil jhalakai vaa(n)gee thaarae||

The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

b`Dk AwXw Bwldw imrgY jwx bwx lY mwry]

baadhhak aayaa bhaaladhaa miragai jaan baan lai maarae||

A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

drSn ifTosu jwiekY krn plwv krY pUkw

ry]

dharashan ddit(h)os jaaeikai karan palaav karai pookaarae||

As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

gl ivc lIqw ikRSn jI Avgux kIqy hr n icqwry]

gal vich leethaa krishan jee avagun keethae har n chithaarae||

Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

kr ikrpw sMqoiKAw piqq auDwrx ibrD bIcwry]

kar kirapaa sa(n)thokhiaa pathith oudhhaaran biradhh beechaarae||

Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

kar kirapaa sa(n)thokhiaa pathith oudhhaaran biradhh beechaarae||

Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

If you read carefully, the source from where these statemnets have been taken is clearly provided. But if you still dont want to believe then you can read 'Riddle of Rama and Krishana' written by Dr. Ambedkar.

Till you find the book, you can read this article

  

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4...hindu_awake.htm

bir khalsa would you rather believe ambedkar and a muslim over Guru Granth sahib? it is your primary task as a sikh to first read what gurbani says about rama and krishna.

Ambedkar was a leader of the chumars. just like the priestly system of india had mashed punjab into false ritualism, it had done much worse to the chumars totally outcasted them all under the yoke of sanatan dharm using dieties religious figures beliefs to pull the chumars down.

Now you can see where ambedkar is coming from. But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em on ya bike.

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 2 thirds of present day pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. former sikh pun

jab was taken away by numerical votes of the dominant martial muslim peasantry in west punjab. 14 years later the centralised dominant hindu peasantry of haryana voted to get out of punjab. Sikhs got cream crackered by muslim and hindu peasantries of botth sides who opted for their own welfare fully known in the 1920s earliest with the muslim league plans and the arya samaj trends in haryana. Yet the sikh leadership had no concious when rejecting 60 million in backward tribes from sikhi.

wud there be an 1984 if you got that number of people accessing punjabi resources to become independant sikhs? 274 million sikhs could have been standing today forming the second largest group in asia. Singh sabha clan didnt want chammars in.

haryanvis, himachalis, u pradeshis, utrnachal and other fake states would have been outnumbered numerically by sikhs. Punjab if mobilised with that kind of number means most of pakistan, and north india would have been a sikh land. Khalistan mate? khalsa raj more like, but woops lets just pretend that never happened, lets not even put that in sikhi history, lets only remember our glory days, who writes the history books again?.

our leaders must have been true quamis our master tara singh was nerhus best mate after all. are you aware during the mahant days the chumars cudnt even enter gurdwaras? taking amrit was out of the question , education u mus be joking, now you know why they opened their own gurdwaras , cos they been spat down by da people dat were ment to help and welcome dem.

its nice of you to share with us info from ambedkar but strange how you didnt mention the sikh leaders calling him a thief , framing him up over a scam that sujan singh sarhali sgpc sevedar masterminded so the chumar movement distances from sikhism with its leadership discredited and more strange how you missed the rejection of 60 million chumars at the behest of sikh leaders posing as respectful sevedars of the quam from amritsar all because of the poor chumars c

ould not help they were born .

Kal Yug da mutlob bi hon patta lagda

i dont think rochak would think hes bein called dirty, put urself in reverse position. you get into sikhi from another faith, and some of the people of that faith claiming to be sikhs (questionable when compared to the definition from guru granth sahib ji) are calling your background dirty, whats ur parenst done wrong? ur sisters brothers? cousins? mates? the good people from your religion you know? are they all dirty ?

i understand that the remark may be meaning indra the murder mobs the rss and the bad people, but the person making the comments is jus saying dirt y hindus, its not that anyones goin nuts over it jus think how u wud feel if u converted to islam n the muslims start saying these dirty sikhs end of day whats ur family done to be calld dat? thats ur history where ur from. rochak cant help what his background is and even if he cud any sane person wudnt jus sit dfown and accept that. its a principle veer ji something thats wrong is wrong right is right.

a khalsa is at one with god in purity

Our youth have grown up in a new generation away from punjab and 1984, they read up and learn their stuff they know a lot of bad happened by these govs and mobs.

Now the websites running on 1984 are doing a good job in one sense theyr doing parchar of human rights, thats a true sikh value ( but not khalistan.biz chattin about other sites). Most of their data is correct as per human rights agency statistics but 1 thing lets it down, its when they start comin out with hindus did this hindus did that. The gov is not hindu congress is a political thing.

nearly half of punjab is hindu, one third of the whole sikh race is intersectioned with hindu punjabis and sikhs from the same castes intermarried. then som of the websites screaming hindus get oyut of punjab eventhough their natives of punjab.

If khalistan came is half of punjabs people ment to pack up and get out? point is where we get knowledge from sometimes has a double edged sword on the 1984 ting.

lol dirty hindus? some dirty hindus from punjab became shaheeds in kcf ( khalistan commando force) for khalistan fighting against the indian police and fauja at times headed by kps gill and his nepew sidebandits. some dirty hindus took khandey bhattey da amrit and became babbars and fought indian fauja while haryana jats were going round attacking gurdwaras and sikhs in delhi and voting hindi as their language which meant punjab got busted into fragments with land ownership titles given to the haryaney jats by india. see i dont need to say this y cos it makes people look like crap jus to let u know this is how it feels to jus go round saying oh so so is this so so is that.

about the

rama and krishna qoutes sikho before you read anybodies analysis as a sikh of the Guru go to the source Guru Granth sahib ji.

tru but how long this guy been there as sevedar? why didnt he say that at the start? better late than never but thats an imporant issue which shud have been tackled from the start, the more its left the bigger the gap becomes theres a recipe for disaster. Loads of siddey people in pinds not educated, sikhi parchar aint done, so these nex babey come out of nowhere its their lottery. This shows you how important it is for sikhs to pull together as a community

i jus wanna confirm sumair is not a singh i have debated him he chants " <admin-profanity filter activated>, jai sri bharat mata and sings praises of hindu gods. hes a fake person taking on the singh name.

a lot of what he says is just crap he has no logic i wudnt be surprised if its some kid. then i deleted him from my msn list and he tries to add me with his other name sunil sharma he aint no singh.

im not sure who runs that khalistan biz site it seems very weird

something led this man onto the path of sikhi but he became entangled with the society web. Raised a few valid points, but they dont belong to sikhi they are individual traits.

From a muslims viewpoint of course they will be happy and show love to a sikh who is interested and enquiring about their religion as much as we would dearly with love explain sikhi to a muslim if their questioning with genuine intentions about waheguru sikhi and naam.

Is this same guy known as "mission impossible"? if it is then i didnt like some of his posts? he used to talk about this aryan supremacy seclusion thing which is contradictory and racist.

Depends what the guy wanted out of sikhi in the first place, if its history culture forget it, that changes like the wind.

One day he will get a rude shock after hes crossed the grass onto the other side and realise you get some burnt jey tootey pojey lokh there just like he met in what he terms as sikhs then hel see you get good people and bad people everywhere.

was this guy relieing on sikh awareness a website for sikhi? what about individual efforts? would you rather be spoon fed or research off your own back? what about meditation, bani, rehet, simran, listening and acting to what bani says.

You dont just grow you hair in this day and age it takes a person to do that surely he wud know what bani is. especially after sep 11 growing kes takes guts nowdays. I think theres much more to his post than hes revealing. Having read some of his past posts his core theme cenetred around pakistan and india punjab unite. what singh in their right mind wants to be a minority in pakistan? most of pakistan is olden punja

b. .

A lot of ex sikh muslim converts i met claim to have this "flowing link" to islam that just takes them there with ease. If thats your sangat, what you see everyday, live around, minus rehet and sikhi then obviously youl get drawn that way.

prostituition drugs are big bussiness with more globalisation netted by ever increasing networked mafias, organised gangs, criminals.

having singh at the end of a name as said dont make anyone a sikh. Its possible this may be propaganda against sikhs to malign the sikh community.

if real, may also be a haryanvi jatt ( if singh is used in last names by some), but also the name singh is a suffix used heavily as a royal insignia by the rajputs outside sikhism for thousands of years.

using a religious (or cultural in case of rajput clans) suffix dont stop people doing manmutt even if their background is sikh, 30 years ago one rich punjabi family used to deal in cocaine supplies undercover , the father and sons used their mother as the courier to avoid suspicion then she got caught for it spent 10 years in jail while the men legalised black money with their accountant friends, so the assets cudnt be frozen or traced to the mum while their mum rotted in jail. These guys have pagha, call themselves singhs . Another guy used to collect extortion money from bussinessmen he threatened, set up his own pub, did hitman jobs, now expanded his empire but to make it look like hes doin something for the asian community brings in his mate a boxer wrestler to train up kids. His name ( which also contains singh) hits local paper headlines 2 years ago on a charity event as a "decent community well wisher."

Sikhi to a practicing sikh is dear, but that doesnt stop a few rotten apples who are out there to just make money and defy everything sikhi stands on. To your conciousness using the name singh and doing beydbhi is the worst insult, but to

a criminal minded person who isnt into religion for the love it but just for affiliating " this is my roots my name we kick axx" to them theres no emotions feelings. Money is their rahb. kps gill and president zail singh one signed over DarBar Sahib to be destroyed the other went round killing singhs and got women raped. theres no remorse they still have singh in their names after doing it for what? money! position! power! so what does singh mean to them?

theres a hindu guy who bought a 2 million pound mansion from a normal 3 bedroom house here, used to get heroin shipped in containers from abroad , had paid off the dock workers, now got properties worth over 7 million through bulk investing from black money and legalised the it through his export clothing and estates bussiness using dodgy accounts. His brother are also in the trade and hasd appeared in the local newspaper as "asian bussinessmen from humble background to riches". they went back to india and spent £3 lakh on a mandir in their town , the locals revere them as heroes.

I can go on and on but theres a lot of indian people, punjabis as well who are so money motivated they just dont care how its made and it doesnt stop them calling themselves religio cultural suffixesor doing gimmicks to make them look all sweet in front of every1. We grow up with some values kirt karoh we dont think the world will be this bad, but ive seen some real shockers that change my perception. When you see whats going on nothing surprises you anymore, this world is not a good place.

But the sick thing is the media dont make it clear who the person is and stop using religious names, and small minded indian sheep mentality people who read these papers and start to think "singhs" sikhs sardars as if their all in it.

maybe its my manmukh mind as i type but i really had this thing for the old havelock gurdwara site. You went there in the morning there was this feeling ( perhaps attachment), but now when i go there it seems like its built for tourism. the sangat community side to it does not seem as tight as it was when the old gurdwara stood. The the community side to it is replaced with tourists and security gaurds looking at you walking in. The simran at old havelock in mornings before it went to park avenue used to kick s it was really like your going home to meet your family thats the homely feel it had to it.

The numerous large scale paintings of Sant Jarnail Singh , Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev singh Ji Babbar and other martyrs , info on 84 and community and seva info on the walls of the gurdwara, x mount of singhs and kaurs in dastara buzzing the place doing seva and simran everyday with progs workshops rensbhais really showed u that place was tight and very active at the time. I think the first "right to wear karra" (or maybe dastaar too) marches in england were led from there. That place generated some wicked buzz.

Park avenue is really good too but maybe its just memories of havelock anyways sorry for going off on one. I think bikramjit singh ji is right bhai rama singh ji most likely meant park avenue cos his book came out when simran was at park ave which rocks too .

southall or west london is the place to be for simran progs. it would be really gud if the same happened in other places where a lot of sikhs are the way it kicks in southall.

its wrong to not like someone because of history for history is history we cant blame todays muslims what auragzeb and his fauja did 300 years ago. plus that event is sometimes wrongly mistranslated as " sikh v muslim".

people forget that the moghul kings could never have controlled india by themselves, they got friendly with the rajput royals, married their women, established blood contacts ( aurangzebs mum was a rajputni ) , and used their royalty and vast armies and pitted them against the downtrodden masses of asia hence a combined moghul - rajput subdual.

Theres more than one angle of it, even some of the priestly hindus were conniving with the moghuls to figure out ways to oppress sikhs , supposed lower caste hindus, minority muslims shias, sufis etc.

We only look at the wars and holocausts but never the political system from where this starts. It looks like religious conflict in history books but it may as well have been oppression of supposed lower castes and minorities by upper castes of different religions to keep their system in power to begin with and later turned into direct religion conflicts due to new rising powers . . If you look at any gov in power it needs to keep control thats its first responsibility to keep a hook on the brains of the masses, fear is a key element, so it breeds a divide with "an enemy". that worked with the moghuls, british and even indian gov today. Its just human nature to see the worst in something at times.

Today is another story the film larki punjaban causes a stir because sikh gurls r lured towards islam by militant muslims who openly call for conversions of sikh women. thousands of sikh gu

rls are converted already. I have no gussa with muslims in general but i have beef with some what their actions on sikh girls duping them leaving them pregnant them demanding ultimatums to convert. Larki punjaban makes it look like some romance but the real story in most cases is nasty.

But i have learnt that its not 100% muslim culture, for i have some muslims friends who come from conservative society of pashtuns. Its mainly jobless guys with no hopes in life who do this, like the mirpuris and bengalis at the bottom of the education league tables wherever they are theres huge problems even other pak communities have to have their name blackened. mps form the majority of paks in birmingham, thats where all the sp pak panthers stuff kicked off over sikh girls in the 1980s. where its just mps they do it to their own.

Those " asian riots" up in manchester were started by bengalis battering an old age pensioner to hospital and syaing "no whites in our area" this appeared on the national media and brewed a storm, then the bengalis gangs stabbed a gora to death for no reason. Thats when the bnp came in, they dont know whos a pak bengali indian, mmirpuri pathan, to them we are all pakis. They started battering up asians everywhere in manchester going down streets knocking on houses down the pakistani neighbourhoods then stab and attack innocent people some of them bjohrgi lokh (syaney). the chunk of the casualties were paks sitting at home who did notthing wrong at night were stabbed by skinheads for some time leading upto the riots that led to confusion panick anger the police didnt help the attacked victims , that led to the pakistanis coming out and fighting back when the attacks didnt stop, then bengalis came out and rioted in their quarters so it looked like "asian riots" or what some asians say "muslim riots".

some people believe all this wa spreplanned by muslims to give all asians a bad name or use the asian tag for some islamic thing jeez its not all about convertin

g the world, sometimes people end up as victims too thats why we shudnt just always assume muslims are bad in everything but look deeper into causes and effects. They have their own problems like we have ours. that notoriety muslims are known for sometimes overtakes our judgement in matters.

Look where it started look where it ended everyone else gets a bad name all because of the no hoper minorities that exist amongst the muslim community.

Just yesterday i was in town, a group of mirpuris ( i could tell fromn their half punjabi, half urdu accent and dodgy faces) jumped off a bus and started wholf whistling two pakistani ladies walking past with babies in their prams. The 2 women were so infuriated they shouted back " aaap kha baap ami jaan eh?" (have you even got a mother and father? )the boys started hurling nasty abuse at these two married women with kids. the crime of the women - NOTHING. two passing policeman pulled the group over for questioning. These two women were also mps judging from their accent and dress .

Now they do it just as bad to their women its not onyl sikh girls. But a new chapter opens when religion is used as a means for this purpose.

see where im going?

it causes a lot of friction, but these actions are not spread by all muslims, it comes down to the jack axxxx in life.

ive heard that indras plan went horribly wrong apparently the indian forces had heavy casualties which they didnt predict in the end she got very nervous and had to call something like 6 or 7 regiments from different parts of the country i recall reading "gorkhas, bengal or rajput rifles and a few others. I also read that it wasnt 200 singhs defending darbar sahib but something like 30 odd left from the 200 (besides the sangat who came to celebrate gurpurb)the other singhs also came to give their head for shahadat at the start but were asked to carry on the movement after and ordered to go by some of the singhs so in no way did they "leg it" their role was just as important for the panth for the future movement. did you hear the singha tha jaikara from darbar sahib when it started it truly sounds like a deep warrior thunder echoiing through on one of the 1984 documentaries with some punjabi guy doing a commentary on the latest news at the time !! to think how much energy and life the singhs must have had to defend is just breathtaking.

i think the number of dead hindian soldiers will be higher than 700 if 7 regiments were bought in to battle for many days ( how many soldiers in each regiment, the indian fauj is officially over a million but likely to be much more )but the gorment will not disclose honestly its casualties cos its their besti in their face against just a handful of shaheed singhs.

one of the indian soldiers afterwards stated something like "if i just had 3 of these divs ( rude reference for shaheed singhs) i could take on the whole of the pakistan army". although he addressed the singhs with an insult thats an

eye witness account measurement of the shaheed singhs demonstrated fighting abilities in the face of the indian fauja.

also i hear that the estimates of the sikh holocausts from indian mock azadi to present is not 250 000 but something like 1.2 million i still have to research the sources on this human rights topic .if anyone has that please lemme know.

The greatest warrior of the 20th century! my mates dads best mate was out there with Sant Jarnail Singh Ji before 1984 in Nanak Niwas, he noted that Sant Ji was a very rare exceptional character in few instances he witnessed that some people come to speak to Sant Ji and try to convince him to backdown from his panthak stance but not only would sant ji not have it, the people would walk away convinced with Sant Jis words after he spoke in very simple but powerful few words, their minds just changed automitically when they went back, these were top educated scholars so so . . The same source mentioned that he even witnessed members of different religions coming to Sant Ji and take amrit their souls just suddenly wanted amrit.

Another source mentioned how he felt a magnetic presence near Sant Ji, wherever sant ji went great crowds were attracted, many youths even then had ghootiya but trimmed beards in the 80s, just one speech and hundreds started growing their beards uncut from one instance. A very similar attribute of Shaheed Baba Manochahal ( also inspired by Sant Ji) when touring in the terai region in the early days.

Sant Ji was not your ordinary guy. He knew the gorment gonna attack Darbar sahib years before it did thats why he had to take the stance to defend it, very far sighted. A singh wrote to me painfully on the very subject of Sant Ji. This singh now in america lost his entire family in the anti sikh delhi riots. He said at the time sant ji told the delhi sikhs to do something for their own safety, a lot of them didnt listen to him and thought wrong of that, but after the riots he and other delhi sikhs realised what sant ji meant. If

he had listened to to Sant Ji his family might have been alive today. half of delhi sikh massacred raped maimed might have been saved if they listened to his advice earlier .

Some old tyme singhs from the uk went to Darbar Sahib before 1984 they said at that tyme there was a meeting betweeen spiritual gurmukhs the aura generated was ment to be crazy next levels. Sant ji had a radiant shine on his face, some serious power behind this being that some of the uk singhs felt. (im sorry im not allowed to go into details). these singhs are now in their 50s and 60s.

Even before 1984 numerous singhs staying in the complex were doing soo much kamaiya they were bairag in mast. some of them were in such a spiritual state that walls meant nothing, their heads and dastaars would sometimes accidently hit the wall while their walking in spiritual trance dastaar and kes come loose and the strangest thing was the loose kes then stood upright with a divine glow around their being. This may defy western logic but sikhi is a inward path things happen in different stages of gurmat way that defy western thought or rigidity.

There are some other things but i dont think its right to type them it sometimes feels like a fine line that you have to draw. Like our hearts want to talk about the 84 singhs but we cant openly discuss everything .

I hope this thread remains to the topic and dont veer off direction into whether sant coming back or not. It would be nice to just talk about the good things about sant ji and other gurmukhs in that period.

I have read that sikhs with serious kamaiya from Guru jis days are born into different parts of the future for certain purposes to unfold that are part of a bigger picture.

few things amongst many i will always respect about Sant Ji is honesty, truth and rightful conduct simplicity and love for mankind whether a man was amritdhari or not sant ji can be seen pictured with monai , singhs etc. Although he preached sikhi it was

his duty, he loved one and all without discriminatiing or eerka.

The indian media have wrongly misquoted and twisted some of his speeches the very sad thing is many sikhs mainstream believe the media than gurmukhs who spent their entire lives in service, people wont put faith in his speeches but in the papers. those repeated mantras live in peoples brains, all i can say is please stay away from these indian newspapers never believe a word.

some sikhs even have bad stories to tell about sant ji to discredit his name but their often sourced back to the indian media or blatent lies they themselves make up cos they cant stand the fact that this one tyme figure was dearly loved by the masses of punjab.

I would love to hear about sant jis early days as a youth growing up so that the rest of us can take courage from that premi gurmukh and carry on spiritual growth in the face of this capitalist world .

weird terms "sikh militant" as if the shaheeds were militants rather than taking up arms as a last resort to defend their property lives and families against torture and humiliation. thats common sense , they didnt just pick up a gun they were driven to it.

"indian security forces" - as if the army really was a security force whos it securing? the first army circular ordered the army to kill as many amritdharis as possible as they are percieved to be a threat. responsible for the mass murder of sikhs so what exactly they securing?

There is no armed movement in punjab today so why is this ban on calenders or photos in place? why is it not lifted in indias democracy?

was subash chandra bose a militant? why is his photo hanging in indian courts and police stations as a " figure of freedom"? where is the expression of freedom?

sant jarnail singh was no leader of any sikh seperatist movement all he did was preach sikhi. The ignorance of the indian media is unbeliebale khalistan was not even declared until 1986 from Akhal Takhat. What seperatism are they then babbling out of their mustard oil laced dhotis about?