hajara

Hi in some ways i have learnt from this site especially the humbelness of bhai kulpreet singh, rochak, bunga singh ji and many of you who made me feel welcome on this site singh ( i think vicky) from california. As well as the rest of you even when i disagreed directly on many points yet still you had the decency to respond back in a well mannered approach. A big thank you to the moderator who allowed me to talk freely here. I am not a patient person i do not like the way some people write on here especially when it comes to religion ive thought long and hard i cant be jacked coming to the same level. There is an atmosphere with a level of ignorance and subtle hate being used by some trying to stir this hindu sikh thing every other occasion fully well knowing at least two of us me and rochak have hindu family. You know who you are, Everything seems to be about rss do you ever stop to examine the holes? am i expected to respond to the shyte everyday to explain that not all hindus are the damn gov or rss ? the reason you dont stop is your very insecure Guru Gobind Singh made the ideal man the khalsa strong enough to have no cracks in th eface of both brahminism and moghul fanaticism let alone rss . Instead of hiding behind the 84 flex and insulting other religions to fill your own insecurity what have you done? awareness is one thing overstepping the mark and abusing religions is another.How many of you got the ballbags to go india right now? ajah too much talking lets go and put our shahidi down lets put our words to the test if its getting to us this bad . YOu know who you are you wont ever achieve what your trying to do. Chalaki aside, instead of hiding the gussa behind a pc about hindus this sikh that go face to face with them and have it out. Some of us have hindu families that we cannot help and even if we could we wudnt wish it no different as thats how nature intended it to be. I never imagined i would find the level of insults accusations hate here hardly just one or two people seeing it. At one time recently this made me question am i on the right path? is this the kind of people that are produced from the religion i am trying to follow? I was close to walking away from it. I used to have this picture of singhs talking about sikhi and trying to represent its values as clones of Guru ji, it refreshed my mind some of you made me see a different picture i will walk away with. Its ridicolous i even have access to bani some of you managed to still get to me this much that im close to walking away from the religion. sure the stirrers among you will be glad im going and probably laugh at this as an "attension seeking" move by the "rss hindu agent" . All i can say is one day instead of poking fun youl feel this exactly as i have. Ive tried to follow the sikh faith i inherited from my father. My maternal side was hindu thats my own mother if any one of you have the balls come out face to face and say what you have to say. You talk about hindu this that how many of you put down your first years salary to help buy a singh sabha gurdwara before buying your own house and sleeping on wooden cold floors? well a hindu did that but have you?. he must have been rss. he must have had some motives to convert you back into a hindu. How many of you largin it with the religion flex have got the guts to walk into a half packed mosque in a muslim ghettoe of 30 000 and debate the islamic hadeesa? well a hindu mona and a non amritdhari from a sikh family did that in whitechapal jamia masjid. im sure if they can do it why cant u? you can talk brave on here tryna take the mick then come out in the real world lets see you stand by what you say. I have my ups and downs like evrybody else , at the moment im on a downer i hope one day i can get out of this and gather up again veer bunga thank you for coming up with th etaksal santhya suggestion that as well as helping me clear a few misconceptions im grateful for you taking time out. Rochak hold it tight im proud of you becoming a sikh but dont take this gunth when their abusing, each is in his religion for a reason its not their fault sum indra ghandi decided to kill sikhs. kandola vicky singh kulpreet singh all the big hearted lions and lionesses take care all the best. RAG KAREGA KHALSA SAT SRI AKAL SAHAIII WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

i already told you in my previous post i want to withdraw from this topic . i dont want to bring up one bani against the other i realised i could be doin beyadbi of guru ji. even after i wrote that you come back insulting me. this is where i loose respect even after admitting your points are technically right on religion. [admin cut - profane, insulting -8] to call me a fool and rss? name the time and place look me in the eye and say that to my face im in the uk. i already told you im withdrawing from this topic and you dare come running back and insult me. if someone is wrong they are wrong i was wrong end of i faced it. you still didnt have the heart to see that. I was questioning i realised my gulti many times i asked to leave this. you got no right to call people rss here just because they dont have knowledge you have. You call me a fool and and rss? i didnt even have it in me to call you pakhandi. you call me rss? just because i had a literal interpretation. if your excuses is repeating then why dont you just back off after saying it?

thank u bunga ji then if gurbani does not refer to hindu scriptures then do you mann dasam granth as gurbani? 3 banis out of 5 come from there every day hunah? what about the qoutes of dasam bani you gave earlier which condemned vedas? did they mean the vedas here? but when their in favour their not talking about vedas? If vedas meant books of truth and nothing else then why mention vedas at all? and what about shabads where the quran and katebs is mentioned? does that not mean the katebs anymore? If im not mistaken Guru Gobind Singh himself addresses himself as lowly too before God as well as hindu gods i get your point. Normally singh i would agree with you that krishna would be condemned and thats final but the bhatt swayeh on krishna are giving us a different message two times. My understanding so far which maybe wrong is that krishna may have been something in a previous yug but kal yug the guru is Guru Granth sahib ji thats what i draw from the bhatt bani whilst krishna is rejected in parts of dasam bani and at the end of krishan chapter called God but i shoudnt say that until i give you bhai jodh singhs page number on the sgpc vols. If a point meant one thing in 50 odd verses and thats that i would accept it as final, but when theres other shabads in lesser numbers saying something else my mind is rethinking. In some peoples thinking a contradiction is rude and offensive when applied to religion, im not saying all of bani does that, but perhaps it could mean that nothing in creation is fixed except for God himself. My interpretation is its not that its rude but maybe that message is theres deeper things behind a difference. Singh did Not Guru Nanak ji take birth like krishna? On your point about rGuru Ji rejecting himself Dasam Bani says Ram avtar created caste system in another part it says ram is god but in Guru Granth Sahib caste is rejected as well as incarnations. Rejection also occurs there. Perhaps im wrong but maybe the times conditions environment beliefs of the different yugs are not to remain the same such as people then did meditationf of thousands of years in seclusion according to bhai gurdas ji vara , but in sikhi in kal yug we r ment to work and meditate at home and not run away. krishna may have been something in that yug but in kal yug its Guru Granth sahib jis message. Like you said there maybe something deeper. I feel i shouldnt carry on further on this topic as i maybe disrespecting gurbani by taking out one bit and then another maybe its my manmutt mind thats very small and needs to open up, forgive me this is my confusion i would like to withdraw from this. If as you said you heard katha that says bani does not conflict and theres a gianni with kamaiya behind that then my own understandings are failing me and i ask forgivness. ms514 what makes you think hindus are united? bihar hindus murder each other over caste the low caste hindus have got their own fauj to ruck the bihari rajputs, the haryana and yadav pardeshi jatts oppress the low caste hindus in haryana, recently theres been wars between different hindu groups in some states because one lot migrated and settled in another the natives didnt like it resulting in killings. Indian society is not united by caste but split by it the way people identify with each other out there at the moment is by baradri clan and not even religion. I think the future this will break down due to western globalising and media bombardment.

I feel upset reading this, the media bombards with these kind of messages full of horrible lies. atwal was shot dead by undercover police because he knew too much about their human rights abuses they didnt want being known public. To them he was a liability waiting to spill the beans. Kill him off at darbar sahib gave them part of a reason to attack it. reign of terror my foot! you hardly call a few world war 2 guns against armoured mass state of the art machinery as even a match let alone rest of the bulltati. Tooo much brown substance (as you said) at its best.

teek ah gulti maaf kardoh . i understand what your saying about sikhi sep from culture but fact is most of punjab including sikhs is in culture and not totally religion at the moment , the only thing that can change that is mass preaching of sikhi. Punjabiyat is a part of punjab it has its good and bad points. I dont claim purans were written by god. i agree guru ji has rejected hindu scripts in some parts of bani while not in others such as byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI]eyku AKru jo gurmuiK jwpY iqs kI inrml soeI:One may read all the books of the Vedas and Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.), the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation (sggs 747). then swDo rwm srin ibsrwmw]byd purwn pVy ko ieh gun ismry hir ko nwmw: O Saadhus, rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on God's Name (sggs 220). Do not say that the Vedas and the Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.) are false. Those who do not reflect and contemplate them are false (sggs 1350). the only thing i meant was it talks about krishan right? now il post up 2 shabads this is why i get puzzled between the shabads and your article mentioning the puran translation ( im not into any hindu god or promiting that as the present Guru of kal yug is only Guru Granth sahib ji) - This Shabad is by Bhatt Sal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1406 thoo sathigur chahu jugee aap aapae paramaesar || You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord. sur nar saadhhik sidhh sikh saeva(n)th dhhureh dhhur || The angelic beings, seekers, Siddhas and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time. aadh jugaadh anaadh kalaa dhhaaree thrihu loah || You are the Primal Lord God, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds. agam nigam oudhharan jaraa ja(n)mihi aaroah || You are Inaccessible; You are the Saving Grace of the Vedas. You have conquered old age and death. gur amaradhaas thhir thhapiao paragaamee thaaran tharan || Guru Amar Daas has permanently established You; You are the Emancipator, to carry all across to the other side. agh a(n)thak badhai n saly kav gur raamadhaas thaeree saran ||2||60|| So speaks SALL the poet: O Guru Raam Daas, You are the Destroyer of sins; I seek Your Sanctuary This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390 sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuva(n)s kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. dhuaapur kirasan muraar ka(n)s kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. kalijug pramaan naanak gur a(n)gadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command if the context is wrong what is the right context? if th is is a metaphor just explaining myths then bhai gurdas ji vara state these things did happen.

pbunga i agree with quiet a bit of what you wrote. But please do take into consideration that hindus in punjab are not the same enough to categorise as this or that. There are categories of loyal arya smajis and rss , then offshoots of the punjabi rajput jatt culture aluwalias, kharal mirzai nai, patrey sainis, jheers ghumars, sheembai chumars so so who have been in punjab part of the punjabi massagatt culture wiith an equal amount of sikhs in their family trees whos only reason for different names was a switch in trades. Sirsa nais were once chauhan veg growers rai clans are found in jatts khattris sheembai all from different religions meaning most punjabis were one. The confusion lies in the fact that some supposed of these groups are found in different parts of india like chumars are grouped as dalits although punjabi chumars have nothing in common with indian dalits exept for a status. But most of the present wave into punjab is bihari, pradeshi and gujjar hindu bhaiyas who were never part of the north punjabi massa culture. Im not saying this from a caste di tohr, thats how punjab is broken down realistically. i know the p bad olicies are driving punjabis away and hindus from other parts of india in. Even punjabiyat stood strong at one point when the haryanvis himachalis lahoris middle punjab were all one because the culture was mainly one punjabi now everyones in different religions and castes the govs have caused havoc with punjab most of punjabiyat is just in middle punjab and that is being driven out. i have only read one of the qoutes you posted up. I think a lot of what your saying is a counter to rss propaganda you see their crap and respond to it. We are well aware of what sikhi stands for but for example the qoute you gave on puranas right these books are thousands of years old who knows what person came in and changed them? perverts were priests inbetween now and when these books started. Im not saying your wrong but.. the truth is you dont know what occured for a start as you wasnt there, and secondly its written in a language you dont understand whos is qualified to interpret? that is why i say rely on bani totally from start to end. Now what about the bhatt svayeh in guru granth sahib ji qoute that says Guru Nanak was krishna in the old 3 yugs? can you honestly accuse me of having purposes on the one hand you got this puranas bit on the other then bhatt svayeh. how do i weigh up the puranas translation with bhatt svayeh from the bani we bow down to?there are two verses in bani that say the Guru was there in the 3 yugs. can that be rss? what about bhai gurdas ji vara that state these are not myths but actually happened? By this im not saying sikhs are hindus. ive read sant jarnail singh jis katha who says the sikh is not the child and the hindu the parent. The sikh is the parent and the hindu is the child because all these hindu gods have kes . He said many other things in that katha that showed that what sikhi is what hindus should have followed and sikhi is the most auuthentic form of religion. Either rely on bani or listen to sant jis katha when talking on the religious side of scriptural knowldgae as a learned gianni like that you cant go wrong. rss speeches are done for politics if they really were into religion do you think a religious person is going to go round lieing out of their brains? by this i mean go and see one of them hare krishnas ask them if they consider sikhs as hindus they dont even know what a sikh is cos it aint in their book. Now this means rss and other hindu groups aint the same.

teek ah paaji i agree with you.

pbunga ( hope u dont mind me calling u that i dont wanna call u pakhandi because i can see youve got josh for the sikh quamyou mean well your only trying to speak from a bani di tohr takh) mah teri samajdah and your right. but its a fact right not all of us r from amritdhari families hunah? now theres a qoute in dasam granth which also says along the lines of monai being kuttai kaffr shaitan. Now would we apply that to our own fathers who left punjab came here worked hard stressed to the point where they got diseases that ruined their lives all for us in return to say their kuttai kaffr shaitan? those mothers who carried us in their wombs for 9 months bought us into the world. Im not saying question bani, what i mean is uhsii literally khai sagdey but we cant go and apply that if we did its then countered back by another bani qoute saying see guru sabh vich in guru granth sahib too. Again im aware different contexts but pherbi two diff points. singh just because people work hard doesnt mean they dont think of god hunah? maybe not advertising what they do or think.hence we cant go round sayin so so are animals if we are not certain what they do. my mates dad does panj banis everyday at 4am he might not have naam from panj pyarey but he meditates on vaheguru and does seva after work in the gurdwara, but to look at youd think hes just an animal.because we cant tell whos doing what we cant say these things. I know some of you think well if he aint taken amrit whats the point? its easy to criticise at least thats better than sitting in a pub drinking shraba kebaba. your a singh in this life to get here right now you must have done bhandagi somewhere so you was an animal in all those other lives? but to recieve the jeevan of a singh not everyone gets that. That bhandagi in those previous lives dont make u an animal. people get put down enuff in life singh help them up and give them confidence im sure thats what our Gurus did. singh thats entirely your own understanding of bani i did my job and thats providing the shabads whatever you make of it twadi marji. This is very strange now in the one hand when you gave the qoutes earlier on vedas being condemned they are relating to the vedas and when bani is saying dont call the vedas false false are those who do not contemplate them now veda doesnt mean veds. Singh i aint no fan of veds im only saying what im seeing from bani i dont even know how many veds or what not there is. Im also aware raam means vaheguru in bani and in other places it means the messenger, for example the bhatt swayeh seem to be saying ram as in ram chander. what does quran mean? does it not mean quran now? singh theres two bani qoutes that blatently say Guru was there in all 4 yugas, ask yourself a question who were the gurus in the previous 3 yugs? is that also a metaphor? what if you came across a bhai gurdas ji qoute which says these things are not myths they actually happened/? Perhaps youv misinterpretaed what i meant singh ji. The chapters on ram krishan in dasam bani according to bhai jodh singh jis translations approoved by sgpc state in places that Ram avtar was God and so was krishan. The version also states that by reading sincerely ram katha krishan katha or chandi katha one is liberated. Thats what it says at the end of each chapter. Im not promoting that as my view thats w3hat it states my point is plain jeh dasam granth thi ghula karni then approove the whole thing not the bits that suit us, this is where we get cold feet. bruv what can i say when you say this that dont conflict? singh give me time il produce you the extact qoute where it says ram created the caste system, ram avtar was god in dasam gr anth and yet incarnations are rejected in guru granth sahib ji as well as caste. Now if you still feel bani is static thats your wish who am i to change that? but im saying for the rest of the sangat bani aint static on every point and ive already showed that. yes the same way you accuse me of using bani for purposes one can also accuse you but whats the point? sanu ki miljana? i wanna be your bro but at the same time what you was earlier claiming is thrown off balance by other bani verses what can i do but come back and say well it also says something else on the same topic? menu ji pharkey khaidoh i dont mind but if im reading different views of bani on the same topic do i stay silent? paaji i know where your coming from your a quami mundah thats all good but you gotto understand 1 third of the sikh race is intertwined with hindus in the same jaats they aint gonna think of their families as animals hunah? thats 8 million punjabi sikhs their not gonna cut off from their khoon with these qoutes like yoyu wudnt call your old man a or kaffr just because hes got cut hair. Thats why i say bigger picture hor sikh bnavoh parchar karoh problem sorted. singh the bani qoutes i gave i also stand on those but i cant help it when one point is this another that. singh i would love to learn from taksal their seva as well as akj and all groups is immense and if im not mistaken doesnt taksal say theres 10 arth to each shabad? your final point i coudnt agree more. chapter closed.

I do not know what the vedas are or what they talk about except for what bani says about them. Now while it is true they stand disregarded as nothing in parts of Guru Granth sahib ji and Dasam Granth Ji while in other parts of dasam granth it tells you by reading the chandi (durga), ram avtar episode sincerely one becomes liberated and some shabads inside Guru Granth Sahib say the following - 1)This Shabad is by Bhatt Sal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1406 thoo sathigur chahu jugee aap aapae paramaesar || You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord. sur nar saadhhik sidhh sikh saeva(n)th dhhureh dhhur || The angelic beings, seekers, Siddhas and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time. aadh jugaadh anaadh kalaa dhhaaree thrihu loah || You are the Primal Lord God, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds. agam nigam oudhharan jaraa ja(n)mihi aaroah || You are Inaccessible; You are the Saving Grace of the Vedas. You have conquered old age and death. gur amaradhaas thhir thhapiao paragaamee thaaran tharan || Guru Amar Daas has permanently established You; You are the Emancipator, to carry all across to the other side. agh a(n)thak badhai n saly kav gur raamadhaas thaeree saran ||2||60|| So speaks SALL the poet: O Guru Raam Daas, You are the Destroyer of sins; I seek Your Sanctuary 2)byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI]eyku AKru jo gurmuiK jwpY iqs kI inrml soeI:One may read all the books of the Vedas and Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.), the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation (sggs 747). 3)byd biKAwn krq swDU jn BwghIn smJq nhI Klu]pRym Bgiq rwcy jn nwnk hir ismrin dhn Bey ml: The Holy Saints preach the teachings of the Vedas, but the unfortunate fools do not understand them. Servant Nanak is absorbed in Prema-Bhagti (loving devotional worship); meditating on God, one’s inner pollution is burnt away (sggs 717). 4)isMimRiq swsq byd bIcwry]jpIAY nwmu ijqu pwir auqwryThe Simritees, Shaastras and Vedas reflect that with the Naam Japa you will be saved and carried across (sggs 804). 5)swDo rwm srin ibsrwmw]byd purwn pVy ko ieh gun ismry hir ko nwmw: O Saadhus, rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, t hat you may meditate on God's Name (sggs 220). 6)piV piV poQI isMimRiq pwTw]byd purwx pVY suix Qwtw]ibnu rs rwqy mnu bhu nwtw: You may read, recite and study the scriptures, the Simritees, Vedas and Puraanas; but without being imbued with the Divine Essence, the mind wanders endlessly (sggs 226). 7)Do not say that the Vedas and the Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.) are false. Those who do not reflect and contemplate them are false (sggs 1350). 8)EAMkwir byd inrmey: Onkaari Beda nirmaye: God created the Vedas (sggs 930). 9)suixAY swsq isimRiq vyd]nwnk Bgqw sdw ivgwsu: Listening—the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss (sggs 2) in another post you also claimed nothing in hinduism was accepted. In Gurbani sense although a lot of hinduism practices are rejected along with theories of avtars but also Gurbani does say the following This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390 sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuva(n)s kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. dhuaapur kirasan muraar ka(n)s kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. kalijug pramaan naanak gur a(n)gadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command jey menu rss agent bolna jee pharkai kh aidoh, but no one can call these shabads rss can they? or the Gurus who selected them to be inside bani?Gurbani speaks from many angles on the same topic while we all agree idol worship is wrong full stop. Not everything in hinduism ccould have been rejected for the last shabad to be there as well as narad muni ( a hindu god) and Guru Arjun dev jis conversation in spiritual trance on rag mala in which narad muni requested Guru ji to have rag mala with bani according to the audio tape "gurmat parchar ninth canto" by sant jarnail singh bhhindrawaley. ( if the tape is wrong i welcome any singh from any jatha or taksal to correct me, this can be confirmed by all older singhs who have the tape).Now all the dasam granth posters who mann dasam granth what about the end of each chapter on ram, krishan and durga? At the end of each in dasam its saying if you read the katha on ram/ krishan/durga sincerely you will be liberated? This means you agree that while a gursikh has to do simran, bani, bhandagi day in day out, life after life to be liberated the shortcut route just read the katha on ram etc once sincerely to get liberated. thats what dasam bani says do you also mann that? if i had bhai jodh singhs translation of dasam bani on both vols on me i would give you the page number right now. If you got a copy go to the end of each of those chapters. Going by both the Guru Granth Sahib ji and dasam Granths then topics mentioned cant always be static.

Tav Prasad Savaiye Naarad say chaturaanan say rumnaarikh say sabhahoo mil gaaio. All living beings like narad brahma rumna and others join together in singing the glory of God .8.250 (35) Raag Sorath Prabh joo to kah laaj hamari. Neel kanth narhar Narain neel basan banwari. Rahau Oh God! My repute is in your hands. You can save me by taking the form of the blue throated shiva or the man lion or vishnu. 710 Raag bilaval shabad hazare So kim maanas roop kahay. Why should God appear in human form? Savaiye Kiyo kah krishan kirpanidh hai? kih kaaj tay badhak baan lagaayoh? how do you say that krishna was god the all merciful? ( what do the bhat bani say on Krishna and ram and Guru Nanak in kal yug?) Akal Ustat Hindu Turk kou rafji imaam safi maanas ki jaat ekai pachanbo Some are hindus other are muslims some are rafjis imams safis but all belong to one race of humanity. (19) Akal Ustat Dehuraa masit soee pooja oh nivaj oee maanas sabhai ek pai anek ko brahamaau hai. God is in the temple as well as the mosque. He is in the hindu worship as well as the muslim prayer. All men are basically the same, though they appear different through our mistake. 16.86 (19) Ekai Nain ekai kaan ekai deh ekai baan khaak baad aatas au aab ko ralau hai all men hav ethe same eyes ears body and figure made out of the compounds of earth air fire and water. Alah abhek soi puraan au quran oee ek hi saroop sabhai ek hi banau hai the abhek of the hindus and the allah of the muslims are one and the same, the quran and th e puranas are His praise.They are all of the same form the one Lord has made them. 18.86 (19) in one place hindu gods are discarded and considered as ordinary mortals waiting for death but in another the vishnu and shiva are spoken of, where you singho draw your own conclusions. Some consider this rss propaganda , this i was accused of last week by somebody, but i too have qouted from the same bani. When someone else does it so suit their point its entirely ok because their just repeating what "our Guru jis says". But when i come out with something thats taking the subject into many angles and then asking the sangat to consider different sides to it i get called rss. All im saying is bani is not static to the point where it suits us, i myself find it hard to swallow the qoute on hindus being blind but i have to research into it and learn more thats the only way i am going to understand why its there under what context, whats the example? some of our Gurus were staunch worshippers of hindu gods too before they became sikhs. Bhai rama singh was a hindu before he became a sikh, bhagat puran singh pingalwaras paternal side was hindu. This was a singh who set up hospital for the poor free of charge doing seva of people with leprosy for the unfortunate at a time when low caste people were not even allowed into gurdwaras to take amrit. I am aware its gurbani that makes a man of such calibre but find it hard to believe singhs of this nature were from blind and animal life backgrounds. I hope you can see where im coming from. My grandfather came to this country in 1960 and spent the first 13 years working 16 hours a day in wood, cement, and metal factories to the point where he developed insomnia, lost water in his body which contributed to his asthma development and heart disease. In those days they slept on cold wooden floors in the winter no beds. A few of the local singhs with some of the punjabi community gathered up and done an ardas to open a gurdwara to have som ething for the community. In those days evey1 looked out for another.My grandfather used to earn £10 a week, out of that he payed his rent, supported his children and wife back in punjab and saved on the side for a future. He put in his first collected savings £500 towards the purchase of the building that became singh sabha . That was like a whole years worth of salary which was saved over years of living on cold hard floorbaords . this is equivelent to todays average of between £15 000 £20 000 average earnings per year, you try saving that see how long it takes when you earn that annually instead of buying your own place put that money down for a gurdwara see how your kids will like you to be called an animal. Now i dont appreciate my grandfather being called an animal or blind.his own baba (grandfather)was a amritdhari singh religion didnt mean a fark to him. My grandad lost both his parents in young age he spent time in different sangats he didnt have this chance like me and you to develop his thought processes through education, but ended up in primal worship they cant even read or write he was working doing 14 hour stints in gt rd at the age of 10 bearing responsibility for a brother of 8 and a sister of 2. Your own grandfathers are of no lesser value than mine, they worked serious thats how the zamana was. He bought our family over, even my dad from india a singh was given home, food shelter when he first came , my grandparents then set our family up and paid a deposit for us to buy a house. They demanded we dont pay them back. My dad hit financial worries if it wasnt for my maternal side we would be out there on the streets. The animal blind maternal side took us in under their shelter, theres a lot more. BUt i cannot consider my grandfather as blind or an animal, hes put in years worth of life savings ( not daswand) to the house of God to be called an animal? that is irrational. its not that i consider him special or any of you less but i fail to see why he would be an anima l. Which then leads me to believe the blind and animal sayings must apply for a specific reason under a certain context. i dont mean to go on and on with a life story but i fail to make sense of the way some people here try to portray sikhi in a static sense to suit their static minds on the way half my family gets called animals. In the same source dasam granth according to Bhai Jodh singhs translation ram and krishna were both God. At the end of the ram chapter just before it says nobody on earth remains even ram went, its saying that rama established the caste system in his raj. Now singh ji do you also believe God would do that? Mool Mantar also says god is formless. See now if your from supposed low caste how would you like me to say God established the caste system because dasam granth says so? We can get carried away with literal madness because one thing written somewhere is the opposite in another place (guru Granth sahib shabads on jaat paat). In the context of idol worship i agree that is mental blindness, that is something i can make sense of because that is really taking the pee out of God. However like i said most of india is uneducated. Now put yourself in a place where your thought processes are limited, backward conditions, education is for the well off, you have to walk 5 miles in the heat to get water, they havent all got the chance to be educated like you which could help empower their minds out of animated worship of primal forces. It hardly rains the sun beats down, no money full of fears what did they do wrong? simple people think simple things . Compare an african in a village living a life of a tribal thousands of years old, thats all he knows , thats all he will ever know because thats all he sees, now compare that with an educated black man in america or britain. His mind is empowered beyond superstitions due to thought processes and life experiences in a fast paced society. If we really wanna help them get out of it lets do seva for them and parchar. But right now we cant even be a**d with our own sikligar sikhs.

page 556 of Guru Granth Sahib ji states - As long as there is breath in the body, he does not remember the Lord; what will he do in the world hereafter? ijc{ ivic dMmu hY iqc{ n cyqeé ik krygu AgY jwe ] jichar vich damm hai tichar na chayt-ee ke karayg agai jaa-ay. igAwnI hoie su cyqMnu hoie AigAwnI AMDu kmwie ] One who remembers the Lord is a spiritual teacher; the ignorant one acts blindly. igAwnI hoe su cyqñnu hoe AigAwnI ANDu kmwe ] gi-aanee ho-ay so chaytann ho-ay agi-aanee anDh kamaa-ay. nwnk eyQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwey jwie ]1] O Nanak, whatever one does in this world, determines what he shall receive in the world hereafter. ||1|| nwnk EQY kmwvY so imlY AgY pwE jwe ]1] naanak aythai kamaavai so milai agai paa-ay jaa-ay. ||1|| mÚ 3 ] Third Mehl: mÚ 3 ] mehlaa 3. Duir KsmY kw hukmu pieAw ivxu siqgur cyiqAw n jwie ] From the very beginning, it has been the Will of the Lord Master, that He cannot be remembered without the True Guru. Duir KsmY kw hukmu peAw ivxu siqgur cyiqAw n jwe ] Dhur khasmai kaa hukam pa-i-aa vin satgur chayti-aa na jaa-ay. siqguir imilAY AMqir riv rihAw sdw rihAw ilv lwie ] Meeting the True Guru, he realizes that the Lord is permeating and pervading deep within him; he remains forever absorbed in the Lord`s Love. siqguir imilEy ANqir riv rihAw sdw rihAw ilv lwe ] satgur mili-ai antar rav rahi-aa sadaa rahi-aa liv laa-ay. dim dim sdw smwldw dMmu n ibrQw jwie ] With each and every breath, he constantly remembers the Lord in medi tation; not a single breath passes in vain. dim dim sdw smwldw dMmu n ibrQw jwe ] dam dam sadaa samaaldaa damm na birthaa jaa-ay. jnm mrn kw Bau gieAw jIvn pdvI pwie ] His fears of birth and death depart, and he obtains the honored state of eternal life. jnm mrn kw Ba geAw jIvn pdvI pwe ] janam maran kaa bha-o ga-i-aa jeevan padvee paa-ay. nwnk iehu mrqbw iqs no dyie ijs no ikrpw kry rjwie ]2] O Nanak, He bestows this rank upon that mortal, upon whom He showers His Mercy. ||2|| nwnk ehu mrqbw iqs no dye ijs no ikrpw kry rjwe ]2] naanak ih martabaa tis no day-ay jis no kirpaa karay rajaa-ay. ||2|| pauVI ] Pauree: paVI ] pa-orhee. Awpy dwnW bIinAw Awpy prDwnW ] He Himself is all-wise and all-knowing; He Himself is supreme. Awpy dwnW bIinAw Awpy prDwnW ] aapay daanaaN beeni-aa aapay parDhaanaaN. Awpy rUp idKwldw Awpy lwie iDAwnW ] He Himself reveals His form, and He Himself enjoins us to His meditation. Awpy }p idKwldw Awpy lwe iDAwnW ] aapay roop dikhaaldaa aapay laa-ay Dhi-aanaaN. Awpy monI vrqdw Awpy kQY igAwnW ] He Himself poses as a silent sage, and He Himself speaks spiritual wisdom. Awpy monI vrqdw Awpy kQY igAwnW ] aapay monee varatdaa aapay kathai gi-aanaaN. kauVw iksY n lgeI sBnw hI Bwnw ] He does not seem bitter to anyone; He is pleasing to all. kaVw iksY n lgeé sBnw hI Bwnw ] ka-urhaa kisai na lag-ee sabhnaa hee bhaanaa. ausqiq brin n skIAY sd sd kurbwnw ]19] His Praises cannot be described; forever and ever, I am a sacrifice to Him. ||19|| asqiq brin n skIEy sd sd kurbwnw ]19] ustat baran na sakee-ai sad sad kurbaanaa. ||19|| slok mÚ 1 ] Shalok, First Mehl: slok mÚ 1 ] salok mehlaa 1. klI AMdir nwnkw ijMnW dw Aauqwru ] In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, the demons have taken birth. klI ANdir nwnkw ijñnW dw Aaqw{ ] kalee andar naankaa jinnaaN daa a-utaar. puqu ijnUrw DIA ijMnUrI jorU ijMnw dw iskdwru ]1] The son is a demon, and the daughter is a demon; the wife is the chief of the demons. ||1|| puqu ijnUrw DIA ijñnUrI jo} ijñnw dw iskdw{ ]1] put jinooraa Dhee-a jinnooree joroo jinna daa sikdaar. ||1|| mÚ 1 ] First Mehl: mÚ 1 ] mehlaa 1. ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ] The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. ihNdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ] hindoo moolay bhoolay akhutee jaaNhee. nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ] As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] ANDy guNgy AND ANDw{ ] naarad kahi-aa se pooj karaaNhee. anDhay gungay anDh anDhaar. pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ] The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. pwQ{ ly pUjih mugD gvwr ] paathar lay poojeh mugaDh gavaar. Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2] But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2|| Aoih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhw{ ]2] ohi jaa aap dubay tum kahaa taranhaar. ||2|| pauVI ] Pauree: paVI ] pa-orhee. sBu ikhu qyrY vis hY qU scw swhu ] Everything is in Your power; You are the True King. sBu ikhu qyrY vis hY qU scw swhu ] sabh kihu tayrai vas hai too sachaa saahu. Bgq rqy rMig eyk kY pUrw vyswhu ] The devotees are imbued with the Love of the One Lord; they have perfect faith in Him. Bgq rqy rNig Ek kY pUrw vyswhu ] bhagat ratay rang ayk kai pooraa vaysaahu. AMimRqu Bojnu nwmu hir rij rij jn Kwhu ] The Name of the Lord is the ambrosial food; His humble servants eat their fill. Amãqu Bojnu nwmu hir rij rij jn Kwhu ] amrit bhojan naam har raj raj jan khaahu. siB pdwrQ pweIAin ismrxu scu lwhu ] All treasures are obtained - meditative remembrance on the Lord is the true profit. siB pdwQé pweéAin ismrxu scu lwhu ] sabh padaarath paa-ee-an simran sach laahu. sMq ipAwry pwrbRhm nwnk hir Agm Agwhu ]20] The Saints are very dear to the Supreme Lord God, O Nanak; the Lord is unapproachable and unfathomable. ||20|| sNq ipAwry pwrbRHä nwnk hir Agm Agwhu ]20] sant pi-aaray paarbarahm naanak har agam agaahu. ||20|| slok mÚ 3 ] Shalok, Third Mehl: slok mÚ 3 ] salok mehlaa 3. sBu ikCu hukmy Awvdw sBu ikCu hukmy jwie ] Everything comes by the Lord`s Will, and everything goes by the Lord`s Will. sBu ikCu hukmy Awvdw sBu ikCu hukmy jwe ] sabh kichh hukmay aavdaa sabh kichh hukmay jaa-ay. jy ko mUrKu Awphu jwxY AMDw AMDu kmwie ] If some fool believes that he is the creator, he is blind, and acts in blindness. jy ko mUrKu Awphu jwxY ANDw ANDu kmwe ] jay ko moorakh aaphu jaanai anDhaa anDh kamaa-ay. nwnk hukmu ko gurmuiK buJY ijs no ikrpw kry rjwie ]1] O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands the Hukam of the Lord`s Command; the Lord showers His Mercy upon him. ||1|| nwnk hukmu ko gurmuiK buJY ijs no ikrpw kry rjwe ]1] naanak hukam ko gurmukh bujhai jis no kirpaa karay rajaa-ay. ||1|| mÚ 3 ] Third Mehl: mÚ 3 ] mehlaa 3. so jogI jugiq so pwey ijs no gurmuiK nwmu prwpiq hoie ] He alone is a Yogi, and he alone finds the Way, who, as Gurmukh, obtains the Naam. so jogI jugiq so pwE ijs no gurmuiK nwmu prwpiq hoe ] so jogee jugat so paa-ay jis no gurmukh naam paraapat ho-ay. iqsu jogI kI ngrI sBu ko vsY ByKI jogu n hoie ] In the body-village of that Yogi are all blessings; this Yoga is not obtained by outward show. iqsu jogI kI ngrI sBu ko vsY ByKI jogu n hoe ] tis jogee kee nagree sabh ko vasai bhaykhee jog na ho-ay. nwnk AYsw ivrlw ko jogI ijsu Git prgtu hoie ]2] O Nanak, such a Yogi is very rare; the Lord is manifest in his heart. ||2|| nwnk Eysw ivrlw ko jogI ijsu Git prgtu hoe ]2] naanak aisaa virlaa ko jogee jis ghat pargat ho-ay. ||2|| pauVI ] Pauree: paVI ] pa-orhee. Awpy jMq aupwieAnu Awpy AwDwru ] He Himself created the creatures, and He Himself supports them. Awpy jNq apweAnu Awpy AwDw{ ] aapay jant upaa-i-an aapay aaDhaar. Awpy sUKmu BwlIAY Awpy pwswru ] He Himself is seen to be subtle, and He Himself is obvious. Awpy sUKmu BwlIEy Awpy pwsw{ ] aapay sookham bhaalee-ai aapay paasaar. Awip iekwqI hoie rhY Awpy vf prvwru ] He Himself remains a solitary recluse, and He Himself has a huge family. Awip ekwqI hoe rhY Awpy vf prvw{ ] aap ikaatee ho-ay rahai aapay vad parvaar. nwnku mMgY dwnu hir sMqw rynwru ] Nanak asks for the gift of the dust of the feet of the Saints of the Lord. nwnku mNgY dwnu hir sNqw rynw{ ] naanak mangai daan har santaa raynaar. horu dwqwru n suJeI qU dyvxhwru ]21]1] suDu ] I cannot see any other Giver; You alone are the Giver, O Lord. ||21||1|| Sudh|| ho{ dwqw{ n suJeé qU dyvxhw{ ]21]1] suDu ] hor daataar na sujh-ee too dayvanhaar. ||21||1|| suDh the line above the hindus being blind is also calling a son daughter demons. The wif e is the chief of demons , so if we take this literally as it is that would mean women married here are chief demons. Which is why it would benefit us to look at every single shabad on women in a very similar way every single shabad on hindus not just the one on blindness to make a statement "here is what bani says". Bani says a lot of things from different angles on the same subject. Its the context it carries with studieing the rest we find out.

thank you singhnee ji i still havent had a chance to look at the blind bit yet and will come back again when i do. Having just read your reply something came to my mind. if i wanted to cuss women down and say "Oh gods word says this"i could come out with the following http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=796&english=t Love of Maya is like a cursed woman, ugly, dirty and promiscuous. maa-i-aa moh Dharkatee naar. bhooNdee kaaman kaamani-aar. its very convenient of my fickle crafty mind that i have purposely forgotten to post the shabad which praises womanhood. THis is the damage a literalist can do. Women are talked about in many different contexts in Guru Granth sahib ji but why did i pick the verse that suited me? are we then led to believe that sometimes the subject itself is cross dimensional? here is a shabad on sikhs http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=1372&english= Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? kbIr swcw siqgu{ ikAw krY ja isKw mih cUk ] kabeer saachaa satgur ki-aa karai ja-o sikhaa meh chook. AMDy eyk n lwgeI ijau bWsu bjweI AY PUk ]158] The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158|| ANDy Ek n lwgeé ija bWsu bjweéEy PUk ]158] anDhay ayk na laag-ee ji-o baaNs bajaa-ee-ai fook. ||158|| kbIr hY gY bwhn sGn Gn CqRpqI kI nwir ] Kabeer, the wife of the king has all sorts of horses, elephants and carriages. kbIr hY gY bwhn sGn Gn C»pqI kI nwir ] kabeer hai gai baahan saghan ghan chhatarpatee kee naar. but why did i miss the other shabads that praises the gursikhs serving Guru ji? anyone can misuse a line its only when you read other parts of the subject that it opens up. As i stated i shall research into the shabad about blindness meanwhile i have found more shabads on hindus 1) http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=483&english=t Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind. Alhu gYbu sgl Gt BIqir ihrdY lyhu ibcwrI ] alhu gaib sagal ghat bheetar hirdai layho bichaaree. ihMdU qurk duhUM mih eykY khY kbIr pukwrI ]3]7]29] The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29|| ihNdU qurk duhUN mih EkY khY kbIr pukwrI ]3]7]29] hindoo turak duhoo-aN meh aykai kahai kabeer pukaaree. ||3||7||29 2)http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=479&english=t Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord; khq kbIr rwm gun gwva ] kahat kabeer raam gun gaava-o. ihMdU qurk doaU smJwvau ]4]4]13] I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13|| ihNdU qurk doå smJwva ]4]4]13] hindoo turak do-oo samjhaava-o. ||4||4||13 4;| 3)http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=477&english=t Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths? ihNdU qurk khw qy AwE ikin Eh rwh clweé ] hindoo turak kahaa tay aa-ay kin ayh raah chalaa-ee. 4) http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...m=465&english=t The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable. ihNdU swlwhI swlwhin drsin }ip Apw{ ] hindoo saalaahee saalaahan darsan roop apaar. qIriQ nwvih Arcw pUjw Agr vwsu bhkwru ] They bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, making offerings of flowers, and burning incense before idols. qIriQ nwvih Arcw pUjw Agr vwsu bhkw{ ] tirath naaveh archaa poojaa agar vaas behkaar. yes there are shabads which are saying many things about hindus, one person can pull out a shabad saying hindus are blind, another person can pull out a shabad saying hindus are worshipping the praisworthy god. one person can pull out a shabad comparing maya to a cursed woman, another person pulls out a shabad praising womanhood. One person can pull out a shabad saying sikhs are at fault another praising gursikhs. We have to look a lil deeper. Im sure youve come across the bhatt bani on ram krishna and nanak in the kal yug. sant Jarnail Singh has done katha on Narad Muni j meeting Guru Arjun Ji in trance i request the sangat listen to it titled "gurmat parchar ninth canto" rag mala is also covered by it. Furthermore sant jis katha on panj sarovar panj pyarey panj kakar panj bani pandavas from the last yug. sorry sangat im half dead as im typing this its 4am.sorry if i made any mistakes

pbunga "hajara, you are pretty mad and I agree that gargajsingh should apologize for whatever he said to rochak. I want to say that you are using Dasam bani for wrong purpose. " paji how do you know my purpose? unless you ask me why? pbunga "Charittars are Bani of Dasam Nanak but you must see why Guru Ji did Rachna of this type of Bani and what do we need to learn from this." i do not question thge authenticity of dasam granth, if i gave that impression sorry mate. pbunga "If you want to know if it really is Bani then I recommend you read the book "Dasam Granth Darshan" by Piara Singh Padam. This book will clear all your doubts." thank you i shall look into it. pbunga " Even though Chrittars are something you cannot easily read or listen to with females present but this case is very different than shivling because this kind of stuff is not going on in Gurdwaras and Sikhs are not using this Bani for wrong purposes. Are they?" tell me about wrong purposes singh?. pbunga " Women in Hinduism not only worship shivling but do bad stuff." please tell me more i cant make sense of that. what kind of bad stuff? pbunga "They do not understand the truth and do not realize what real worship is and how to worship the true Waheguru. This is an act of blindness." most of india is illiterate,backward, poorly developed in primal life. Red indians, aborigines, africans also worship primal forms of nature. You go to school singh to learn now from the age of t en what have you learnt by the time you leave uni? Rather than poking fun why not help these people develop n realise their potential and preach sikhi if you really want them to understand the truth the way you see it? pbunga "Guru Ji did Racha of this Bani but does not mean Guru Ji believed in this type of stuff or supported it but Hindus carry on this stuff and believe in it. This is the major difference. " do what stuff? bow to a shivling? lol. singh i respect bani as it is dont get me wrong but anyone can come back n say well your hearing vulgar words with your mum sitting next to you. Now you could hear the whole tale about the raja and woman sitting next to your sister n say well its rachna. I know theres morals at the end of each charitr, but its how we each see the message some of us say "oh damn it says that" others say " well lets learn from the whole thing". teek ah , but in that context i dont see what your gonna then gain out of cussing someone bowing to a shivling? thats culture for you if you wanna change it like i said go do parchar if you really care for them otherwise whats the point? if you wanna touch nex mans heart go n do seva for them show them you love n care for em, n then enlighten them with bani without callin dem blind. when you say hindus carry on stuff what you mean? expand on it further im lost. pbunga "the lesson we learn is something else and that is: we need a True Guru." but what you gonna get hate mongering? they dont know blah blah" let it be man its their kismet unless you wanna change it. how to change? person to person contact not by telling someone they dont know truth or blindness. pbunga "The only way you can relate this to hinduism is if only the stories were written in Gurbani and Sikhs were following the stories but that is not the case. So please do not misuse Gurbani next time." how do you know all hindus bow to shivling? where have i misused gurbani? you still havent asked me why i responded in relation to ghargaj singh have you? the reason was hes taking the piss, i been at the recieving end of the charitr episodes with the rss which is why i told him they can easily reverse and add on their own crap on. they dont show any mercy mate, which is why my moral to this is dont touch on these subjects cos anyone can twist them around to say "hahaha look at these dirty sikhs" hahaha look at these dirty hindus". pbunga " I know you didn't mean to do it intentionally and you are probably hurt cuz what was said to rochak but you misusing Gurbani even unintentionally was hurting also. forgive me if i offended you." u aint offended me, its not about being hurt its how we see things. Your technically right with your point i agree, but in the long term ghargajs comments and even you calling someone blind animal or not knowing truth is kind of rude and like your saying under the certain contexts charitrs r used you also gotto take a look at why the blind and animals comment was said and what was the greater message behind it? now if its saying outright hindus are blind and or are animals n thats it 100% then i cant make sens of that and i cannot accept that, if however its used under a certrain context then singh i accept that there is a certain context its used under. My reasons are plain as follows my maternal side are hindus for me to consider them as animals and blind is irrational upon which i can talk about further if you so wish. My fathers side is sikh i have carried on the faith of my father eventhough my mothers side great great babey were singhs my grandfathers peerhi delved back into hinduism making my maternal side hindus therefore its not so much religion but freedom to be what a person is without being called names thats going through my head. But i will study the animals and blind qoutes more and come back to you. thank you, this is a g ood place to learn and youve bought out some points which i never knew about il be back soon.

The identity of a sikh is a sikh end of. The original article is written by persons trying to send out a message of unity but their repeating the same lines as well as over doing it which misses the recent history (post 1984) especially. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave his head for a principle of human rights to freely practice what you believe in, not for a purpose of unity he would have given his head for muslims if it was the other way round. To Blame pakistan for everything is nuts . Muslims understand the sikh conflict better than india does due to kashmir palestine chechnya similiarities cross border activity with khadkoo singh dheras in pak punjab . The wrong info is being fed 2 indians from the gov side meaning the only thing indians heard on the punjab problem is what they saw on tv. Very much like what you see in kashmir we can be quick to assume muslims are fanatics trying to spread islam and terror in kashmir, especially since a few recent casualties were sikhs ( although investigations revealed the army was responsible). But where did we recieve our information from? news. Im a punjabi sikh with some hindu blood on my maternal side but i feel closer to some muslims than i do to sikhs or hindus , my best friends are not even punjabi muslims but from pathans who are both pakistani and kabuli muslims. few things i remember about the ones i come across is their honourable, simple, they mean what they say, n can put up a ruck. natsilakh where you saying you would like sikhs to be seperate. Depends what your saying if its khalistan i agree 100%. But if its seperaton of punjabi hindus from punjab and sikhs then im afraid youv missed reality and hard facts. Arya samajis, pure hindus, brahmins, bhaniyeh, sanyareh are the upper castes of hindu society . True the ghandi family was brahmin and ruined a lot in sikh policy making however there were many good brahmins you cant take it out on all of them. Its not your caste or religion that makes you like that. after jatts and terkhans punjabis are split into ghumars, nais, sheembai, jheers, then the rest chumars, khattris, bhatrey, jatt/khattri switches ahulwalias, sainis. These are the dominant groups in punjab of hindu punjabis as well as a slightly smaller number of sikhs. This may shock you but you will also find that from these homogenised groups theres a sikh connection which make up 1 third of the sikh race after jatts and terkhans. Sikh nais marry hindu nais, sikh ghumars marry hindu ghumars etc etc. Members of both religions are married in the same houses with blood ties from both sides. These are cultural traditions from one century to the next. These groups r not of arya samaj because their caste is considered low and their not classed as aryas because their not blue blood. members from dual religions are more cultural than ideally sikh or hindu. To assume hindus created problems in punjab is also wrong. the issue of language rights and dividing punjab is related to economic status from landless to jmeendar. Haryaney jatts considering themselves as the original hindu jatts collected in the land belts out of the old punjab. At the time of subha 1961 they voted hindi as their mother tongue, they agitated for a seperate land against punjab, the gov helped them, in return they staked land claims in haryana himachal and hoshiarpur which the gov helped. This depleted land resources of which the khalsa which gave 93% sacrifices the bottom line it was a scam for grabbing land. refer to sant jarnail singh jis speeches. Punjabi hindus within the small punjab now are bout 45% had they voted hindi another haryana would have been created out of punj ab. Its very conveniently cleverly used to say "these hindus did this that, when in fact it was all about land gains and asserting a new identity in haryana hardly anyone cross dissects the subject as to decipher different groups named as hindus. Its a shame how we then ignore our own forms of "brahminism" we carry out and or practically protest against it such as caste gurdwaras which included hegomy over singh sabhias akali dal seats, caste marriages and drawing a line betwen idol worship and revering gurbani as word of God and denieing the biggest act of caste ritualism in history kicking away 60 million backward castes from darbar sahib. Then we ask where is khalsa raj? when will we have our day? it can only come through living Guru sahib jis ideals. My solution to this as well as the above posts is parchar. the bad economic agrarian policies of the state are driving punjabi sikh jatts away to the west. In my opinion it makes more sense to do parchar of sikhi to the masse of punjab. Bhai Randhir singh did it hes one of the very few people who led a revolution in the most suppoosed low caste sections of society. Im not into caste but thats how it is back in punjab its not as easy as nit picking. one third of the sikh race is connected to hindus through blood rishtey. This dont mean hindus and sikhs are the same religion when the theories of both are diametrically opposed. But there are different sides to this which is being ignored. So technically speaking rather than seek the impossible of seperating one third of the sikh race from their hindu rishtedars , instead if we sort parchar out and gain more sikhs into the fold as was we might get somewhere. Sikhs will have a khalsa raj when the ideals of Guru ji are put into practice Thats Sant attar singhs jis forecast. rather than look at the con of it try to make the positive through preaching of gurmat sikhi.

i get my message from gurbani but i dont need to go round pointing fingers at others in my smugness just because i have been fortunate to have been blessed with some sikhi, instead i should feel grateful and hve the want to help those less fortunate who dont know. I agree idol worshipping wont do anything but no 1 have got the right to start attacking rochak. He is getting into sikhi from another faith we gotto appreciate where hes coming from. we should give this brother strentgh and warmth in sikhi. . Rss are peope trying to destroy sikhi, who have taken part in killings burnings and rapes of minorities in india. So garghaj your a lost man, a sick man, the sangat here responded to you and your sick comments and you still carry on. You should at least apologise thats below the belt. YOu insulted a guy whos becoming a sikh . You think your a big man go and stand outside a mandir in the hindu militant hinterland of haryana and debate religion with the militant haryanvis, do it face to face directly not behind a pc, or meet shiv sena. I even know a hindu and singh who both walked into a busy mosque in the uk in a muslim stronghold neighbourhood of 30 000 muzzis and debated the "ulmusleem" , "bakhari ul hadeeth" at namaz time which takes more than a shatee expanding cartoon behind a pc here. thats ten times brave than what your cartoon shatee. Who are you to call rochak nang? look at your face in the mirror do you resonate sikhi in any way more? rochak is a respectful dude.you must be one of those "anakh vala" henah. shivlings lol not that put me head down to one but how would you like rss men responding back with sections from charitropakhan? i ha ve been there in that situation in my early days where i also took the piss they came back with the charitar tales and asked me is this what i bow down to and allow our women to listen to in our 2 holiest takhats? your remark about women is trying to take the mick, why not men to? dont they put their head down to it? so it looks like your trying to say something. just be direct about women and shivlings. theres also a shabad about heeng leeng seeng, bhog , inside guru granth sahib thats read every stime you have an akhand paat at your house sitting next to your mum and sisters, or at the gurdwara with the rest of sangat. Now obviously the contexts can be twisted by rss who wants to insult, thats my point with you your just acting the large like they do. But if your the badboy you think you are haryaney shiv sena deh addhey chul. How much of waheguru have you realised yourself?some of our gurus and original panj pyareyz were practicing hindus before they became sikhs. read the sakhia Instead you should talk about sikhi in a way where people become attracted to it not through taking the piss. ur method wreaks the wrong message. Muslims became sikhs, hindus became sikhs there must have been something that pulled them in the first place. im sure your the epitome of humbleness and nam simran and nimrata we can learn from with your last post. Guru ji did start a new religion your frenzied paranioa lol, where did rochak say sikhi is not a faith? your jumping the bandoookz koinah jada coke peeleyah putt. sort your akhad out this is sikh sangat and our rochak is a bloke whos trying to become a sikh.

bloody kuri maars i hate punjabis who do that. We keep saying islam is this that punjab and india is no better. They still set alight a daughter in law in the kitchen and say its an accident n grab the dehj list presents that was the classic one. Just 3 years ago a man in delhi roasted his wifes body parts in the home kitchen to avoid being detected for killing her. in the dhuaab region of punjab gangs of girl smugglers prowl out for girls kidnap them and send/sell them to other parts of the east. asia is a hellhole for women.

akasi singh you took amrit from the panj pyarey they have no jatha. the bhatta doesnt have a jatha name on it. naam and bani kirpa infused into you doesnt have a jatha attachment to it either. how would the jatha you associate with have more honesty than anybody else? singh ji my reasons for asking are not for provoking you or creating a fuss im trying to make sense of what your trying to say.

define sad sangat and what you mean by true people, how does that make anyone untrue if they dont belong to one jatha?

Sikh history is built through sacrifices boldened by sikh values written in blood at times and confirmed in many historical sources. Rss shiv sena bjp are trying to create an identity and take credit for what others did cos the truth is they left a big void which cant be explained. Their own kids will ask well what did we do then? They cant face the shame of defeat and living hopeless till the sikhs came, cos right now they are the raj seat while the sikhs are just 2% in punjab. Their kids ask wow these people sitting up here in the corner did so much for us? well what did we do for them? " the victories of the khalsa served as a signal for the general uprising throughout the country and it revived in the indian masses a new sense of spirit." - Ganda Singh "Banda Singh Bahadur" page 100. The rss are trying to say marathas did it first due to their sheer numbers coming out at once. The khalsa were fighting for hundreds of years in guerilla and direct warfare for generations with successes and other times retreating in jungles long before anyone took a stand.The only other time muslim rule was fought and challanged were the arab turkoh v punjabi jatt wars under raja jaipal going back when muslims first came. It was after the khalsa singhs inspired by the Sikh Gurus that other martial peoples followed like the delhi rahti jatt uprisings, rajputs, marathas, etc.

although in the odd instance i may not agree with one or two postings, this site is nice . The admins are doing selfless service off their own back for all of us, i respect that and wish you all the best, not only have you given a platform for sangat, your given freedom to talk, this is a much cherished privelidge . The sangat which has been attracted here (excluding this dirty soul ) is pretty much good there are a lot of humble nice people whom i have lernt a few things in my short time here. Thank you all and admins dont worry about few people complaining your seva is really good

before the riots sikhs used to live all over delhi, after that horrible period sikhs collected up to live in homogenised communities in parts of west delhi which is divided between the affluent suburban sikhs and poorer sikhs in ghettoes. I went to one village the living conidtions of the sikhs were like refujees it was not good, the pain was written on their faces. One old couple we knew came to my grandmother and just broke down their only son had been killed in such a cruel way, their tears and emotions i wont forget. this is why when the cong come back and try to apologise i dont understand it, i cant make sesne of it. what use is a sorry? its just beyond anyone to even think what was lost and one sorry one act will make everything ok? anand has shown in what value 10 000 lives of men women children are to him.

please dont say that your a lovely man a good sikh. im the one who does show.

sangat ji , anand is lieing out of his horns i hope you can all see it, hes trying to say "im sorry, we are one i have been awarded blah blah by sikhs". covering his tracks on the holocaust they engineered on the sikhs. I have read the riot reports, the congress gov candidates not only led the mobs, they planned everything, step by step, gave electoral lists to criminal mobs, they perfected their plan to such a degree it came out how they wanted, narasima rao who later became the pm was the main man at the top. One canadian pm was in delhi at the time over a pipeline deal he witnessed sikhs being massacred from a a distance came back to canada and claimed on canadian tv that "the sikhs are committing terrorist acts in india". One politician with the next, deals political favours.

everything about this anand is fake, his apology is a lie. How can you defend a holocaust then say sorry for it? An apology isnt going to replace the lost honour of thousands of women, bring their husbands back, children. This apology is a cruel joke. since where did he establish faith in sikhi? what happened to it when kids were having burning torches shoved into their mouthes while the congress I politicians not only watched but led the mobs? the matter will not be dead and buried, there is a very heavy lekha to pay 10 000 men women children dont just get burnt, electrecuted, beheaded, amputated,raped, in just 3 days 3 nights for someone to come along and say sorry he wants this buried? go and jail every single hk bagat lala involved for life, go and give free accomodation, free education, compensation for loss of life, free food and rations to the widows and surivors of the riots even then this will never be buried. You cant bring back somebodies father, brother sister,the lost honour of a woman, her young son who has been taken away. To say anand want this buried is a very cruel joke. Sikh women are rotting in west delhi refugee colonies they have no money no support. so sikhs are now proggressive when they are meant to forgive a holocaust on a grand scale! I cant believe what im seeing. do the cong really think people are thick? The final claims are interesting if as per his claims from a mix background of hindus and sikhs then how would he have felt when his party members issued the murder plans to perfection of his own relatives and co religionists? men and women were targetted in the delhi holocaust due to their religious ori gins through electoral lists. if your own relatives are now being killed by your own party and then its said he supportd the gulukara does his claims make sense? Gurdwaras were attacked all over delhi what happened to his grandads memories then? I find this claim highly dubious it looks like hes found a convenient bridge where he thinks he can walk between sikhs of delhi and the congress. delhi sikhs wont be forgetting the riots. Its not some cakewalk where he can just say sorry. this man is really making a joke out of everything, there is no serious effort to dispense justice and a lot of trickery going on.

kandola your mixed up where i said khalsa im replieing to "brave khalsa". untouchables are 35% of 1 billion. 350 million.( my first figure was mistaken) i read somewhere the khalsa one day will reach a figure of 960 million whether thats true or not i dont know but id love to see soooo many sikhs. new info to me big up to the the sacrifices of raja ranjit singh but i wasnt aware to what level parchar is carried out in india, and if it was im sure we would notice changes, i went to punjab 2 years ago most of my cousins cut their hair in punjab, more interested in looking like pretty boys wearing american designers.but i saw a hell of a lot of kesdhari sikhs in delhi its like a mini punjab in some parts . i think it wud be rocking to take sikhi where its needed, if our people dont want it what can you do?