Bijla Singh

I understand your point being that Shabad was the first to get created in the process of Sargun. My understanding of concept of Shabad and it being part of creation is different and more in line with Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Veer Singh. Perhaps we will discuss Sankalap of Shabad in Gurbani in future. At the end, we are all going towards the same reality and we will know some of it as we progress spiritually. Waheguru is Apar and Beant. Guru Rakha

Singh, for me personally, you post gets confusing. Though I understand what you trying to say and it does get difficult to explain it but I have clarified some of your points for general readers to better understand this concept. I considered it necessary for the topic being deep, profound and thought provoking.

Akaal Moraat is visheshan or indication of Nirgun Paratma.

Akaal and Moorat are not adjectives but describe nature of Waheguru. He is beyond time and has a personality. He is an existing living being but beyond time. So you are partly correct that these attributes refer to Nirgun.

Just look at the transition in "ikongkar" - it starts with ik(nirgun) ong(sargun) then kar - kar(sargun and nirgun milaap) sargun reminds us of source, which goes back to nirgun form. Kar- Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun (Milaap of Nirgun and Sargun)

That is one way of looking at it. I am more inclined to Prof. Sahib Singh and Bhai Veer Singh. Ik (numeral) refers to His unity and Oneness, Oang refers to His Brahmn saroop and Kaar refers to Him being Ik Raas or unchanging. This is why I stated that He does not have any phase or form which refers to changing cycles whereas aspect does not. The gist is that One God who is Waheguru is Nirgun and Sargun.

The reason i mentioned nirgun and sargun are forms, its because when there was no universe, it was only nirgun in its nirvakalp samadhi, shabad gyan. But when nirgun transcedented most of its attributes via shabada (ong), sargun paratma(avtars), sargun pasara(vairaat), shabada with attributes of nirgun was created.

The fact its nirgun attributes are being transcedented..i don't think aspect word does justice.

In the opening verses of Gurbani, Waheguru is described as Sat (unchanging) from the beginning of the creation to the end and beyond. This means that whether the creation is there or not, Waheguru remains the same. Therefore, when there is no creation, it is inherent in Him which means God then still is full of attributes and hence Sargun. The change occurs in creation. God cannot be Nirgun only but if you mean Nirgun yet full of attributes then I agree. Sargun aspect means a way of God to reveal Himself. Words form and phase imply that He created something of Himself which was not there before and hence a change occurred. I think you are using the term transcendent wrongly. It means going beyond limits. The correct term you might be thinking of is manifest i.e. He reveals His attributes.

You have provided some quotes from Gurbani which I agree with completely. There is only One God and always remains so. He is like an ocean from which issues forth waves, or a Sun with rays, a seed with qualities of tree inherent in it etc. All these examples are not perfect obviously because nothing can be compared to God but the fact remains that no change occurs in God even when creation starts or ends. He remains One. Whether waves rise high or remain quiet, makes no difference to the water/ocean. Similarly, after the creation ends, all Sargun (creation) qualities merge back in Him and after that He still remains Sargun. Sargun (attributes) do not disappear in oblivion.

I think better word to describe it as - anubhav parkash of nirgun- sat chit anand svaroop.As i mentioned earlier above with nirgun and sargun ekta wale shabads. Nirgun and sargun are same.

He is Anbhav Parkash or Saibanh(g) which refers to Him being Self-Existent. If you mean Sat Chit Anand of Gurmat who is full of Love and attributes then I agree. Vedant version of Sat Chit Anand is not accepted in Gurmat. When you say Nirgun and Sargun are same I see two interpretations. First is: God is Nirgun (without influence of) Sargun (being full of attributes). Second is: creation and God are identical. I think you mean the former. I would disagree with latter because creation is not identical with the Creator. Creator transcends the creation and is perfect without it. If you mean same in terms of union or God being Omnipresent, I agree with you.

Sargun is reflection of Nirgun just like how picture in mirror is an reflection of self.. because nirgun transcedented its attributes when this whole universe was created..creation came from creator regardless of devta's shortcoming.

If sun is nirgun, its lights and its ray is sargun. If one tries to hide the light/its ray or alter the light or rays make prism reflection out of it, that does not change the"fact" light/ray of sun animating from its direct source(sun).

Nirgun will show its attributes via sargun, when sargun merged back to its source (nirgun). There is no attribute to show but that does not mean nirgun does not have attributes,that just means there is nothing to show that point, if everything merged back to nirgun paratma (everything sargun pasara, avtars, shabads, attributes), there is nothing..don't confuse nothing with shuniya...its not shuniya - its not annihilation, merging with mahanand sagar can never be annihalation. Please read previous discussion with kulbir singh

With minor disagreement over choice of words, I agree with your implied meanings. I understand Sunn or Shuniya in Gurmat does not mean nothingness. For others, read Bhai Veer Singh’s interpretation of Mool Mantar.

Your quote from Akaal Ustat proves that God is Omnipresent and creation does not have independent existence. Tuhi Tuhi refers to His light shining forth from everything. It also means that all the attributes in the world have only One source, God. Gurbani has many shabads in the same manner explaining God remaining One and the same yet being everywhere. Gurbani calls it “Sarab Nivasi Sada Alepa” meaning that being everywhere He remains without its influences i.e. Nirgun full of attributes. Gurbani says:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਈ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (223)

Word Niranjan means without the influence of maya.

Gurbani has given perception and updesh that this sansar is mithiya, everything is mithiya and sargun pasara is mere play.

Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela||

There are also may shabads which talks about how this whole world is mithiya and maya.

Singh, it is not clear as to what you mean by mitheya and maya. In terms of Vedant, the world is mitheya i.e. an illusion but Gurmat calls it real for the God is present in it. In Gurmat, mitheya refers to temporariness. The world is not eternal and will end at one point. Maya in Gurmat is anything that makes one forget God. Creation in Gurmat is under the influence of maya (rajo tamo sato) but not maya itself like in Vedant. This is why I believe that Shabad/Gurbani is not Sargun (creation) but Nirgun (without influence of maya). A true Sikh attached to Gurbani practicing Shabad is worshipping Nirgun and will result in union with Nirgun (God). Worship of Sargun (creation) is futile and will not result in union with the Creator.

Shabad and sargun saroop of vahiguroo (shud satogun) are two wheels which will take us to nirgun.

I like the use of term “Shud-Satogun” or pure saintliness attributes. Bhai Randhir Singh also states that sato-gunn of maya are not the same (in power and essence) as God’s pure attributes. In the above statement, if you mean Sargun in terms of attributes (which I think you do) and not in creation, I agree.

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥

The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable

I disagree with the English translation. It does not show anywhere in the line that worship is of two types. The correct translation would be: Sargun and Nirgun both aspects are of the same God whose worship (bhakti) for devotees is most beautiful (Neeko). I didn’t translate Roop literally to forms because such results in different meaning which implies a change. In Punjabi, Roop can be used for personality or a being but form in English refers to an independent physical structure.

ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥

Through bhakti of God (ਭਗਤਿ) one becomes Gyani (attains true knowledge of God) and while being Gyani remains a true devotee, such a devotee through bhakti of Hari (God) becomes known or popular. In other word, Sachay Marag Chaldeyan Ustat Karay Jahaan.

In nirgun, there is only gyan of shabad not shabad itself.

Since God is the only Creator, Shabad is inherent in Him. He created the creation from “Eko Kavao” or Shabad. Gurbani also says:

ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ (117)

ਏਕੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਲੋਈ ॥ ਏਕਸੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥7॥ (223)

Since, creation has come forth from The One and the Shabad, it proves that Shabad and God are One and were so prior to creation. Here Shabad refers to His creative power which is one with Him. Keep in mind that since the creation came from Shabad, it proves that Shabad is not Sargun (creation). This is why worship of Shabad is worship of Nirgun. Further, Shabad is not influenced by maya, hence, Nirgun. In addition, when a true Sikh becomes one with God, he becomes free of maya and attains “Sad Jeevan”. This state is called “Udaas” or Sehaj Padd or Turiya Avastha. This makes a Sikh free from any type of bondage. He is merged in Nirgun at that point while being full of virtues and god-like attributes. This is why Shabad practice is Nirgun worship.

Worship of shabad at earlier stage/beginning stages is simran( sargun asthohol and sukham roop) and sargun surti transcedenting itself to nirgun birthi) and worship of shabad at bhramgyan stage - gyan of that shabad

This is contrary to Gurmat. Worship of Shabad is worship of Nirgun regardless of anyone’s surti birti. The change occurs in the devotee whose spiritual state rises above and beyond maya over time but the one being worshipped does not change.

Shabad is sargun and shabad gyan is nirgun. Simran stages itself starts from sargun, transcedents slowly towards nirgun.

When God said “Eko Kavao”, it was not Gyan only. Gyan is dependent on Shabad and cannot exist independently for without Shabad gyan is useless. Alphabets, letters, scripts etc used to pen down the Shabad is Sargun but Shabad itself is Nirgun. Previously quoted Gurbani Shabads prove that Shabad was inherent in God and existing prior to creation. I think this is a separate topic in itself and has been discussed by us many times previously so no need to do it again. We can agree to disagree on this.

To summarize, with some disagreements on Nirgun/Sargun, I agree with you on the most part. This is understandable because it is simply Akath Katha and no words can describe Waheguru fully and more we get close to Him, more Vismaad occurs and one realizes that such an experience can only be felt but not described in any sense. This is why Gursikhs say that the only way to learn Sikhi is to live it by experience. Overall, fruitful discussion and I hope it was beneficial to others. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

In Jaap Sahib it says in the 3rd chand Anek hai| phir ek hai| can this refer to Sargun (anek hai) and Nirgun (phir ek hai).

Yes, Anek refers to His presence in the creation. His light shines within everything. Nothing in the creation has an independent existence. This is contrary to some Indian philosophies and Semitic traditions. Wherever Gurbani states that He is everything, it refers to His Omnipresense and should never be taken literally to mean that He is identical with the creation. Guru Sahib says that being Omnipresent He does not get divided but remains One and the same.

ਖੇਲ ਖੇਲ ਅਖੇਲ ਖੇਲਨ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਫਿਰਿ ਏਕ ॥ 81॥

Just like Gurbani, Jaap Sahib calls God “Avdhoot”.

ਜੱਤ੍ਰ ਤੱਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਰਾਜਹੀ ਅਵਧੂਤ ਰੂਪ ਰਸਾਲ ॥ 79॥

“Avdhoot” is synonymous for Ateet, Nirlep, Niralam etc. It means that wherever God resides, He is unattached to or unbounded by it and remains Vismaad or Ik Rass. Waheguru always has attributes. Here is the proof:

ਗੁਨ ਗਨ ਉਦਾਰ ॥

and

ਗੁਨ ਗਨ ਪ੍ਰਨਾਮ ॥

Many influenced by Vedanta claim that Waheguru does not have maya in Him and by this they mean that Waheguru is devoid of maya in literal sense but Jaap Sahib refutes this notion.

ਨਮੋ ਰਾਜਸੰ ਤਾਮਸੰ ਸਾਂਤ ਰੂਪੇ ॥

One can read interpretation by Bhai Veer Singh and Pandit Narayan Singh which clearly states that Waheguru is the source and creator of all the attributes as well as maya. This is my limited understanding. May Guru Sahib bless us to understand Gurbani more clearly and purely. Guru Rakha

Without stirring up any futile debate (with no intentions to offend anybody) this is my understanding of it:

In Sikhism god is considered to have two forms

Explaining “Akal Moorat” you wrote that He is without any shape or form. In fact, God does not have two forms. He is formless i.e. has no shape, size, color, gender etc. Gurbani says: “Roop Na Rekh Na Rang Kich...” Nirgun and Sargun can be called aspects but not forms or phases.

One form is called nirgun(non existent original/supreme blissful Consciousness/transcendental meditative state[anubhav parkash])

Nirgun does not mean non-existent because God always exists. He has no beginning or end. He is forever and ever. God is always Consciousness, transcendental, immanent and in blissful state. None of His attributes change ever.

In six Indian philosophies, God is considered to have two phases: Nirgun (no attributes) and Sargun (full of attributes). However, in Gurmat such is not the case. Waheguru always remains Nirgun which means without the influence of attributes meaning that any attribute cannot overpower or influence Waheguru to cause change of state. Nirgun, in Gurbani, does not refer to physical non-existence of attributes but to non-existence of influence. This is why He is called Alep, Nirlep, Agochar, Apar, Niranjan etc. When God punishes or showers love His state of being remains the same and He does not act under the influence of these attributes. He remains Graceful and Love. In Gurbani, Sargun in context of Waheguru means treasure of attributes which is also referred to as “Guni-Nidhan” or “Guntaas”. Therefore, God always remains Nirgun and Sargun i.e. He is full of attributes but remains Nirgun (without the influence of attributes). This means that unlike Semitic God who gets angry, annoyed etc. Sikh God remains Truth (unchanging) in the state of Bliss or called Vigas, Vismaad etc.

In Gurbani, God is transcendent and immanent meaning that He is present in the creation but not limited by it. He is Omnipresent but not identical to creation and is perfect without it. Beginning or end of creation makes no impact on Him for He is Truth and always full of attributes.

Some philosophy systems consider Sargun to be the creation. Gurbani uses this term in the same context at some places but not for Waheguru. Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Vir Singh make it clear in their books that only Nirgun (full of attributes and yet without their influence) worship is accepted in Sikhi not Sargun (creation). One can read Guru Granth Sahib Vishavkosh by Ratan Singh Jaggi to read a simple basic explanation of it.

Second form is consider sargun state of God which occurs when nirgun orginal state of God transcedents its attributes into three sub forms. 1) physical form- avatars ie- our guru's of this age of iron and previous ages/karak bhramgyanis and 2) shabad form of God in sikhi context- Gurmantar, Mala Mantar/Mool Mantar/Bij Mantar/Satnaam Paraporbla mantra which explains attributes of God act as an carrier for soul merge back to its source- nirgun. 3) Sargun pasara(vairat roop/whole creation) form of Vahiguroo- Creator is infused in its creation-like fragrance in the flower.

God cannot be divided into any states or sub-states. He is One and always remains so. Your third category (whole creation) covers the first one (physical form). So your explanation is not clear. If you are using Sargun in terms of creation then Shabad does not fall in this category because Shabad does not have any beginning or end and is in union with Waheguru. I am not referring to Shabad as a script or alphabets. Shabad is the creative power of Waheguru and will never cease to exist. Baba Hari Singh Randhawa during discussion on this subject said “Shabad Di Pooja Nirgun Pooja Hai” (Worship of Shabad is the Worship of Nirgun).

Waheguru’s Jot (light) shines fully in Satguru while prophets/avtaars/messengers have limited powers granted by Him. The entire creation is present in Waheguru and Waheguru is present in it but they are not identical. Creation is simply His play which has come into existence many times and has been destroyed many times. But Waheguru has remained the same in every respect.

Nirmala scholars and others heavily influenced by Vedanta have diluted Gurmat’s viewpoint of God but keeping Gurbani as the basis, one can see clearly that the Sikh concept of God is wholly distinct and unique. Guru Rakha

Mirror ji, we all go through tis experience but I believe books by Bhai Vir Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh can help you with that. Bhai Vir Singh’s way of explaining is very simple and easy to understand. Read Gurmukh Jeevan, Gurmukh Sikheya and Guru Nanak Chamatkaar.

As Bhai Vir Singh explains, before you begin Nitnem (morning, evening and night) sit down and for at least 5 minutes do gurmantar and consider it a time exclusively for your soul to attain inner peace. Sant Harnam Singh explains that if your mind wanders then do jaap loudly to make your mind listen to it. If it wanders more then do it a little louder and when it stops then you lower your voice. It is a battle with your mind. Then do Nitnem believing Guru Sahib is present with you and listening to you. During your day, always do gurmantar or Gurbani abhiyaas while you are doing your daily activities. Even if you get one minute do not spare it. Just keep at it. Increase your abhiyaas slowly. According to Bhai Vir Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh, this is the first step and always the hardest but once your mind stops wandering a little, the peace and rass obtained will be unlimited and unexplainable. Their suggestion is to keep going and keep at it while not overlooking other aspects of rehat. Also do Sukhmani Sahib even if you do a little of it every day. I’d recommend even taking a break from worldly activities like computer, tv, reading (except Gurbani and Sikhi books), eating out etc. or anything you can quit for a couple of days and you should feel the change. Guru Rakha

It is a common misconception that bhagats were Hindus or Muslims. Initially they were but eventually, they parted ways. Bhagat Kabir Ji was a disciple of Bhagat Ramanand Ji but later on he met Guru Nanak Dev Ji and received Naam. Even Hindu scholars like Raam Kumar Verma and Prof. Divedi affirm that Bhagat Ji was greatly influenced by a “Punjabi Sadhu” who was none other than Guru Sahib. Nihal Singh Soori wrote a detailed work on Bhagats in the beginning of 20^th century.

All Janamsakhis confirm that Guru Sahib met Sheikh Farid Ji twice whose real name was Sheikh Ibrahim Farid Saani. Bhai Vir Singh in Guru Nanak Chamatkar on Page 250 states that it is Bani of Farid Saani included in Aad Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not of first Farid who was born in 12^th century. Prof. Khaliq Nizami in his book on Bhagat Farid also advocated the same viewpoint. So it is not just Sikhs but even Hindu and Muslim scholars after careful study of the lives of the bhagats reach the conclusion that bhagats were influenced by Guru Sahibans which is clear from their own Bani.

Those who wish to study about Bhagats whose Bani is included in Aad Guru Granth Sahib Ji, please read the book Itihaas Guru Granth Sahib by Giani Gurdit Singh. Guru Rakha

Which time period specifically do you want to study?

Siranda is a musical instrument and has 17 main notes like harmonium has 7. Ghar refers to the main note. See article by Daljeet Singh on this. Here is one example of Pehla 1.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ 1 ਘਰੁ 1 ॥

ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥

ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥1॥

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥

ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧੫ ਪੜਤਾਲ

Aasa Mahalla Panjvan Ghar Pandarvaan Partaal

This means coming Shabads are in Raag Aasa by Fifth Guru. Ghar refers to the main note or sur of the siranda. Partaal refers to continuous change in musical mode.

In headings, always read Mahalla Pehla, Dooja etc. even when it is written twice i.e. Pehla 1 or Dooja 2. In this case you would read it like Pehla Pehla and Dooja Dooja respectively. Numbers at the end of the Shabads are not pronounced. Guru Sahib knows best. Guru Rakha

This is one clear proof of falsity of English translation and how some consider Gurbani’s message to be whatever English translation says. Meanings are as follows:

ਕਾਹੇ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਉਦਮੁ ਜਾ ਆਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਿਆ ॥

O mind, why do you indulge in thinking about earning your own food when God Himself has made all the arrangements. God Himself is doing this work.

ਸੈਲ ਪਥਰ ਮਹਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥੧॥

Even a small bug (ਜੰਤ) in his creation trapped in (ਮਹਿ) the stone (ਸੈਲ ਪਥਰ) (with no way to get out) gets its food (then you should not be worried about it).

Guru Sahib is teaching the mind to indulge in Naam instead of worrying about earning food. Guru Sahib is saying that since God gives us life, He Himself provides the food for us. When a baby is born, milk is provided and when the baby grows older he gets teeth to be able to chew solid food. Although we should be earning our food the honest way but we should not worry. It is not about earning food that Guru Sahib is against but worrying about it. Gurbani teaches to be absorbed in Naam while doing our job and always remain “veparvaah”.

Prof. Sahib singh is considered to be one of experts in Gurbani Grammar. I thought it will be nice to learn how he

translated to mean the following line on ang 1350 of SGGS ji

Have you studied Gurbani viyakaran yourself? If yes then refute my arguments using viyakaran. What rules justify your thinking? Do you believe Gurbani is contradictory? Bhagat Kabir Ji wouldn't reject Vedas and katebs and tell others not to call them false. Guru sahib clearly says that such books do not give salvation so why wouldn't they be false? Prof. Sahib Singh's interpretation is incorrect because he himself ignored viyakaran and wrote sampardaic meanings. Also, his interpretation is contradicting other Shabads which I have posted. Bhai Randhir Singh and Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha intepreted it the correct way. They knew viyakaran better than Prof. Sahib Singh.*EDITED*

(ਹੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਵੀਰੋ!) ਵੇਦਾਂ ਜਾਂ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ (ਇਕ ਦੂਜੇ ਦੀਆਂ) ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਝੂਠੀਆਂ ਨਾਹ ਆਖੋ। ਝੂਠਾ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਬੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ। (ਭਲਾ, ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ!) ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਇਹ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਉਸ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਅੱਗੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਲਈ) ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ? (ਕੀ ਉਸ ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ? ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਹੀ ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ?।੧।

According to Islam, God is not in the chicken. Heck, he is not even in the creation. God and creation are considered separate.

Balbir, do you have the proof that I have followers? Or you are just used to lying?

This has been discussed before many times. I will not debate on it again and again. You are free to believe whatever you want.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoot(h)ae jhoot(h)aa jo n bichaarai ||

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. (Ang 1350)

It is only due to lack of true knowledge about Gurbani that many fail to understand the true meaning behind this line. It is believed by some that the Shabad explains the event that happened in Kanshi where Kabir Ji lived. Hindus and Muslims were debating on religion, talking ill of each other and condemning the religious books of each other. They came to Kabir Ji. To calm them Kabir Ji gave this sublime counsel "Thinking under the influence of anger, do not call Vedas and Quran false. Try to understand the reality in a peaceful way and then say what you want to."

First of all, the debate may have taken place and Hindus and Muslims may have been calling each other false in anger or blindly but coming to Bhagat Ji for a decision does not seem likely because he was a low caste and it is illogical to believe Brahmins coming to him for a decision since he did not even have the right to read, listen and touch the Vedas. He had also rejected Quran, hajj, five prayers, fasting and many of the Islamic practices in his own lifetime, which will be highlighted later, so Muslims expecting a decision in favor of Islam from Kabir Ji is foolish on their part. Let’s break the pankti (line) in two parts and discuss each half separately so the readers can understand the meanings better.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ

baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoot(h)ae

In interpreting the above pankti (line) words ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ are mistranslated as “do not say” which is false. Gurbani is written according to a set of grammar rules. Word ਕਹਹੁ is plural and a verb in third person which gives instruction to do something. It is similar to words ਜਪਹੁ (meditate) and ਸੁਣਹੁ (listen). In this case, the word ਕਹਹੁ means to call or declare. Word ਮਤ has multiple meanings but in this context it means religions for two reasons. First, if it meant “do not” then the order of words would’ve been reversed and would’ve appeared as ਮਤ ਕਹਹੁ because wherever word ਮਤ means “do not” it appears before the verb. Second, it would go against the principles of Gurmat and contradict not only Gurbani but Bhagat Kabir Ji’s own beliefs. Therefore, the correct meanings are:

ਕਹਹੁ – call

ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ – religions false

Guru Gobind Singh Ji has used the same word to convey the same message.

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

Rama, Mohammad, eighteen Puranas (Books of the Hindu faith), and Quran say a lot about their own religions but I do not follow any one of them.

Also notice that the word ਮਤ appears at the end. If it meant “do not” it would’ve appeared before the word ਕਹੈਂ and the meanings would’ve been “do not say”.

Correct interpretation word by word thus becomes:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ – Vedas and Semitic scriptures

ਕਹਹੁ – call or declare them

ਮਤ – religions

ਝੂਠੇ – false

ਬੇਦਾਂ ਕਤੇਬਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੰਨੇ ਹੋਏ ਰਸਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਹੋ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਝੂਠੇ ਹਨ

Call the religions preached by Vedas and Semitic scriptures false

Last half pankti (line) is also misinterpreted because it cannot mean “Those who do not contemplate them are false” since it is in singular form. Here is word to word translation:

ਝੂਠਾ - false is he

ਜੋ ਨ - who doesn't

ਬਿਚਾਰੈ - contemplate the truth

Meaning – ਅਤੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਹੀ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਸੱਚ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ ।

And false is the person who follows any of these religions and does not contemplate the truth.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji in his book “Gurmat Gauravta” gives the following interpretation of this line:

ਵੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਮੱਤ ਹਿੰਦੁਆਂ ਤੇ ਤੁਰਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੰਨੇ ਹੋਏ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਝੂਠੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮੱਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਚਾਰਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੀ ਝੂਠੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਉਹ ਸੱਚੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਵਿਚਾਰਦੇ.....

Religions of Vedas and Semitic scriptures are false and their followers are false as well because they do not contemplate the truth. As long as a person does not realize the truth of Gurmat he is false.

Now the question arises: what is the truth? Truth that one should contemplate on is given in the following lines. Discussing the entire Shabad line by line would make things much clearer and leave no doubt that the Shabad rejects both religions, Hinduism and Islam.

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

Addressing the Muslims, Bhagat Ji says: You say that the One Lord is in all and His light shines within everyone then why do you kill a chicken (animal)?

ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥

O Mullah – tell me if this is justice? You tell others how just Khudah (God) is:

ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

But the doubts of your mind have not been dispelled and you still wander in darkness of ignorance.

Bhagat Ji is questioning Muslims that if they believe in all pervading God then why do they kill His creation (animals) mercilessly since God’s light is also within animals. How is this just to kill God’s creation in His name? Why would God want a human to kill His creation in His name?

ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ॥

You seize a living creature, bring it home and kill its body. You read “Bismillah” and kill the animal in Allah’s name.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥

The light of God that never dies and is pure is everywhere and in the killed animal also. So tell me, what becomes halal by killing it?

ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕੁ ਕੀਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

What good is to wash your face and bow your head in the mosque and what good are your purifications?

ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

What good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? Your heart is full of hypocrisy.

Bhagat Ji calls Muslims hypocrites because on one hand they call themselves religious by washing their faces, going to mosque and hajj and on the other hand they kill animals, which is an act of a butcher. In other words, a merciless person cannot be a true religious person.

ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know realize the truth.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੪॥

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise (merciful living); your mind is set on hell (satanic acts such as killing).

In brief, Bhagat Ji says that God is not pleased by physical purifications, going to mosque and hajj and killing animals. It is clear that Bhagat Ji rejects Islam and its hypocritical practices. To further prove that Bhagat Ji rejected Islam we give some quotes specifically from his own Bani and few from rest of Gurbani.

ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥…ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥…ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥… ਨ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥ ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan…I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines….I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers….I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim. My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. (Ang 1136)

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥ ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2|| If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3|| Give up your holy books (Quran and Hadiths), and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly. Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have have been lost in hypocrisy. ||4||8|| (Ang 477)

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਇਫਤਰਾ ਭਾਈ ਦਿਲ ਕਾ ਫਿਕਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe, O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart. (Ang 727)

ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

I have no quarrel with anyone. I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause|| (Ang 1158)

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥

Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written, I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3|| (Ang 1159)

ਅਲਹੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਮੁਲਖੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਦੁਹ ਮਹਿ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਾ ॥੧॥

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1|| (Ang 1349)

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗਿਆਸ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਉਬੀਸਾ ਕਾਜੀ ਮਹ ਰਮਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਗਿਆਰਹ ਮਾਸ ਪਾਸ ਕੈ ਰਾਖੇ ਏਕੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥੩॥ ਕਹਾ ਉਡੀਸੇ ਮਜਨੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਂਏਂ ॥ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਂਏਂ ॥੪॥

The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan. The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3|| What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque? If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4|| (Ang 1349)

ਕਬੀਰ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਇ ਥਾ ਆਗੈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥ ਸਾਂਈ ਮੁਝ ਸਿਉ ਲਰਿ ਪਰਿਆ ਤੁਝੈ ਕਿਨਿ੍ ਫੁਰਮਾਈ ਗਾਇ ॥੧੯੭॥

Kabeer, I was going on a pilgrimage to Mecca, and God met me on the way. He scolded me and asked, ""Who told you that I am only there?""||197|| (Ang 1375)

From the above quotes it is clear that Bhagat Kabir Ji never supported Hinduism or Islam. He rejected both outright.

I do not have a working scanner so I cannot scan the pages but I can try to translate one rule at a time which it will take a while.

ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ - ਫਿਰ ਫਿਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਂ ਘੁੰਮ ਘੁੰਮ ਕੇ

ਫੇਰਿ – ਦੁਬਾਰਾ

In brief, Bhai Sahib is saying that the soul transmigrates again and again and again. Such repetitions are common in Punjabi and Gurbani. ਫੇਰ refers to one repetition but ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ refers to multiple. ਫੇਰਿ has sihari because it is a ਸੰਬੰਧਕੀ ਪਦ.

These are not past or future actions because word ਫਿਰ is not a verb (here is where knowing Punjabi is helpful). In my earlier post the word was ਦੇਇ which is a verb in past tense. Its present tense is ਦੇ. Also, look at last word of each line in the pauri. They are all singular. In case of plural they would be ਆਵਹਿ, ਜਾਵਹਿ, ਪਾਵਹਿ all with siharis. Here are different forms of ਆਵੈ. All are in present tense.

ਆਵੈ – ਉਹ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ - singular used with he/she

ਆਵਹਿ – ਉਹ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ - plural used with they. This is pronounced with nasal sound at the end.

ਆਵਹੁ – ਤੁਸੀਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਆਓ - plural used with you

ਆਵਹ – ਅਸੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ - plural used with we

ਆਵਉ – ਮੈਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ - singular used with I. This is pronounced with nasal sound at the end.

For the word ਐ please post Gurbani panktis. Keep in mind, one word can have multiple meanings especially in Gurbani.

Most Sikhs and even kathavachaks, babas, sants etc do not know viyakaran and to justify their shortcomings ridicule grammar using foolish arguments. Gurbani viayakaran prevents misinterpretations of any kind. If one learns viayakaran they will understand that all the panktis which are used to support Vedas, Puranas etc are in fact rejecting these books.

Many books have been written to teach viayakaran but Sikhs do not want to put effort to study it. One needs to have sangat to do Gurbani veechar to learn it. Studying Gurbani is like learning a new language and just because one knows Punjabi very well doesn’t mean they will understand Gurbani viyakaran. Guru Rakha

Tied to desires, the soul core of my body comes and goes [in transmigration] across the ages.

Tied to desires (because of desires) soul of the body comes and goes and has been transamigrating throughout yugs.

This pauri is derived from the Saloak of Mahalla 1 in Aasa Ki Vaar.

Why siharee in jug jug? Is it Jug jug vich?

In Pandit Narayan Singh’s teeka and in Saloak of Guru Granth Sahib the word appears without sihari but in Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka it appears as ਜੁਗਿ. The meanings will be “in each and every yug”. This word has different meanings such as: age, time and two.

Is the aunkar in ਮੇਰੁ because BG is referring to themselves or a human existence as a singular?

Word ਮੇਰੁ comes from ਮੇਰੂ which is the main bead of a maala. In this pauri and in Guru Granth Sahib, it means soul of body which is why it is written ਮੇਰੁ ਸਰੀਰ ਕਾ. Aunkar means Bhai Sahib is talking about a soul in general. He is saying that a soul because of desires of maya transmigrates. Meanings require in-depth study. Bhai Sahib is not endorsing his or Gurmat viewpoint but explaining popular beliefs about yugs during his time. Moral he wants to relay is in the last line.

Piara Singh Padam has a section explaining siharis and aunkars in his book Siri Guru Granth Parkash. It is very brief and to the point. I think it will b every helpful for you and those who wish to learn viyakran.

Read Bhai Veer Singh's veechar on this pauri. It was discussed on this forum a while ago but I can't find it anymore. I think the database got deleted or something so I can't find my old topics and posts.

I do not know about Vaars but since I have studied them we can certainly discuss them. Let's see if the same viyakaran applies or Bhai sahib has used other rules. I did not pay attention to grammar when I studied Vaars because I studied them before I started Gurbani study since they are key to Gurbani.

I do not have the time to go through every word of Rehraas Sahib. It requires a lot of time. But I will explain meanings of some of the words you presented in your earlier post.

ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

Here there is sihari on word ਪਿਠਿ because it is a preposition and associated with the word ਦੇਇ which also has a sihari. In my opinion, sihari is not pronounced here but is written to tell the reader that it is a past action verb. Meanings are: ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ - ਪਿਠ ਦੇ ਕੇ

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

Word ਤਾਮਿ has sihari because it is associated with word ਜਾ meaning it is a ਸੰਬੰਧਕੀ ਪਦ.

ਚਿਤਿ - ਚਿੱਤ ਵਿਚ

ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

Words that have siharis are all related to each other. Word ਗਾਵਨਿ has sihari because it is plural and addressed in context of third person.

ਦੇਹਿ - It appears in different forms in Gurbani but each form has a different meaning. One rule of thumb to remember is that when verbs end with ਹਿ and addressed in context of third person they are plural. Also, ਹਿ is always pronounced with a nasal sound.

ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

ਦੇ - ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ – He gives (present tense singular)

ਦੇਹੁ ਸਜਣ ਅਸੀਸੜੀਆ ਜਿਉ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਲੁ ॥3॥

ਦੇਹੁ - ਤੁਸੀਂ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੇਵੋ (You all give me).

Here word ਦੇਹੁ is in singular form because it has aunkar and one person is making a request. When multiple people make a request it appears as ਦੇਹਿ like in the following line:

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥

ਆਖਹਿ – They say

ਮੰਗਹਿ – They ask

ਦੇਹਿ - ਤੁਸੀਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਦੇਵੋ (You give us)

There is also a word ਦੇਹ (without aunkar) but this form always means physical body.

ਮਿਲਿ - ਮਿਲ ਕੇ

When nouns have sihari they pertain to meaning of "through". Here are some examples:

ਭਾਗਿ - ਭਾਗਾਂ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਜਾਂ ਭਾਗਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ

ਲਾਗਿ - ਲੱਗ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਿ – sihari because it is plural.

ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ - ਹਰ ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ

Had the meanings been ਸਾਹ ਦਾ or ਸਾਹ ਨੂੰ there would be no sihari. Since an action is being performed (God protecting us with our every breath) there is a sihari. I hope this gives you some understanding but these rules will become more glaring as you study Gurbani more and more. If you post panktis that would be more helpful for me to discuss aunkars and siharis. But the rules will apply elsewhere in Gurbani. May Guru sahib forgive me for my mistakes. Guru Rakha

I have never listened to Giani Thakur Singh's or anybody's santhiya lessons because I have already had it from my father. I have listened to Jarnail Singh's paath because I play his audios for my son to listen to so I know his pronunciation is correct (almost). For you to learn how to pronounce Gurbani, listen to his audios. For meanings and viyakaran we can do Gurbani veechar and learn from each other. I think this should be done most on forums.

Dalsingh, if you could post exact panktis that would be great and will save me a lot of time. You are mixing two topics (which is expected from someone who doesn't know viyakaran). For pronunciation, just listen to Jarnail Singh's audios which is mostly accurate. There are rules to pronounce words with nasal sounds. Talwara's book would be helpful in that regard. I will discuss meanings of siharis (at the end of the word) and their purpose once you post some panktis because I want to make sure that I do not write anything out of context. Gurbani has its own language and rules so there is no one single rule for all siharis.

GPS, if you failed to understand the point of my post then that is your fault. Your every argument and assumption was refuted. Instead of addressing my arguments you resort to the excuse of "post is too long". Have you provided any evidence? Simply not. Follow your own advice first. If one cannot form an opinion without reading Sarab Loh then you shouldn't form an opinion on Quran without reading it first. I don't think this is too hard to understand for a normal person. What evidence did you provide in its favor? None as usual. Shabad you posted was discussed by me with Kulbir Singh and other gursikhs. As stated, words prophet and mohammad do not appear which means Dr. Thind is wrong. Also, conduct described in the Shabad resembles more with a Gursikh than Muslim of a Quran. Had you studied a little you would've known better instead of copying pasting from other websites. Not so difficult to understand the fact that if words don't appear in the actual Shabad then their appearance in the translation is illogical. You posting flimsy translation is causing confusion on our scriptures and the true message. I provided you with Gurbani quotes which you requested and now you resort to "too long" and "irrelevant". Entire post was related to the topic and your arguments. If part of my post is not related to the topic then don't post unrelated questions and false opinions without any basis. I have posted other Shabads that define Pandit, Brahmin, Yogi etc. which are not in agreement with definitions of these words in Hinduism and Islam. This means that Gurbani does not preach others to follow their religions. Try to go in-depth a little next time.

In Hinduism people worship idols, keep fast, worship demi gods and goddesses, consider taking bath in Ganga as holy acts, read Vedas and other books, wear janeu, indulge in empty rituals etc, all of which is rejected in Gurbani. If a Hindu was to follow Gurbani he will have to renounce everything he is required to do in Hinduism. It is simply an irrational statement to say that Gurbani tells Hindus to renounce their rituals but not religion. What is left of Hinduism without these rituals? What is left of Islam without fast, hajj, circumcision, five prayers, judgment day, halal etc which are rejected in Gurbani? Had you understood Gurbani you would not have made any senseless statements. I can certainly provide quotes from Gurbani that reject the above stated practices and ceremonies of Hinduism and Islam. Just let me know for which you want the quotes specifically. Provide any one Shabad which advises Hindus and Muslims to follow their respective religions and scriptures. This will be your evidence which you have not provided yet. So far you have been beating around the bush by providing irrelevant quotes which do not support your claims.

There is a big difference between asking and telling. Is Guru Sahib asking (requesting) us to follow him in Gurbani or giving us hukams? Guru Sahib went to holy places of Hindus to tell them the futility of visiting such places which clearly means he was rejecting their religious practices. You are saying that Guru Sahib told people to renounce false rituals but these rituals were and still are part of their religion so what is a religion without any practices? How could Guru Sahib “ask” Hindus to renounce their religious practices but not religion? You need to make more sense. Guru Sahib didn’t roam around to give out advice but as Bhai Gurdas Ji says “Chareya Sodhan Dharat Lukayee”. Contemplate on this pauri for better understanding.

On one hand you state that Guru Sahib wanted people to do good deeds but the quote you provided says that the entire world is engrossed in good and bad deeds but God’s devotee is above them. The quote actually refutes your own arguments not supports them. Also, what is good? Is good in Gurmat the same in Islam and Hinduism? Absolutely not. Guru Sahib didn’t preach idol worship as a good act but an act of blindness.

That does not amount to conversion we are talking here. He was baptizing sikhs who were not amritdharis yet.

So what you are saying is that a person who is not Amritdhari is a Sikh. This is false and has no basis in Gurmat. Without Amrit no one is a Sikh because this is the way to get Naam from Satguru. In Gurmat taking Amrit means becoming a Sikh. It is the first step. This has been discussed before so do a search and read them first before writing the same old arguments.

Again, don’t comment on something you have not read. You are making false assumptions. Had you read a little bit of Quran and Vedas you would’ve realized that they do not support Gurmat viewpoint. Is our history not enough of a proof? Aurangzeb’s policy was the influence of Naqashbandi order which started with Sheikh Sirhindi. The policy towards non-Muslims comes from Quran. Here are few quotes from Quran about non-Muslims.

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." (5:51)

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48:29)

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful." (9:5)

And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. (2:193)

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (9:73)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (8:37)

Gurbani teaches us that there is one Satguru (Guru Nanak Sahib) in the world. Naam is obtained from Satguru. Without Naam no one can be saved. This means only Gurmat is the true path since Mohammad and Hindu avtars were not and are not considered Satguru. They also did not give out Naam. Gurbani is not an instructional manual. You need to study it to understand the gist of it. It won’t say “Adopt Gurmat” but it will go in-depth to explain the true path, its practices and how to become a true Sikh. Gurbani defines Gurmat and all definitions of Muslim, Pandit, Brahmin, Mullah etc are synonymous with definition of a Gursikh. Gurmat is a distinct and unique path. It was started because other religions did not offer true salvation and had fogged the truth. Hence, they were incomplete. Guru Sahib preached the true path not just another way to reach God. Those who do not understand and practice Gurbani can never understand this fact. Do not copy paste Shabads with false English translation. It doesn’t add any credibility to your posts. The Shabad you posted has already been explained here: http://searchsikhism.com/islam1.html Guru Rakha

GPS Ji, you have not provided a single shred of evidence from Gurbani, Vaars and Kabits to back up your claims. You also failed to refute the arguments put forth by others. Your statement that Guru Sahib never “asked” anyone to change religion is seriously an insulting comment towards the Gurus. Verb ‘ask’ means to make a request. Certainly, Guru Sahib never requested anyone to become a Sikh. Rather he preached Gurmat which inspired people to adopt Gurmat. People didn’t just wake up one morning and decided to become Sikhs “on their own”. It was the result of missionary work carried out by the Gurus and the Sikhs. Word “missionary” is used for a person who undertakes a mission especially a religious mission. Guru Nanak Sahib in his own hymns states that he was given the divine mission to preach. Bhai Gurdas Ji narrates the same incident. Nowhere in Gurbani is it stated that a person should follow their respective religion strictly. In fact, the word Hindu is not even redefined in Gurbani whereas words Pandit, Brahmin, Muslim, Sheikh, Yogi, Sanyasi, Mullah, Qazi etc are defined according to Gurmat.

Guru Sahib never asked anyone but rather told everyone to follow Gurmat (the true path). He told Sajjan thug to become a true Sajjan and even composed a Shabad (Ujjal Kaiha Chilkana..). He wasn’t asking but telling him to renounce his false activities and follow the true path, a path which Guru Sahib preached not the one in Vedas or Puranas. He told Siddhas that they were wrong. He told Hindus in Hardawar, Ayodheya, Tanda etc that they were wrong. He told Muslims in Mecca that they were wrong. Guru Gobind Singh Ji told hill kings to take Amrit but when they requested a separate Amrit Sanchaar for themselves Guru Sahib refused. So the point is, missionary work had a clear purpose which was to preach Gurmat so that people would be motivated to become Sikhs. Gurbani is full of Guru’s Hukam (not requests) which applies to everyone. Hence, Gurbani is telling people to renounce their false religions. Gurbani clearly rejects Islam and Hinduism and so does Dasam Granth.

Coming to Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, he himself said in his own speeches that he administered Amrit to 10,000 people in a day. Again, he repeatedly told everyone especially the youth to become Amritdharis meaning to become Sikhs. Why he said Hindu should be a true Hindu and a Muslim should be a true Muslim is best known to him. Maybe for political reasons or maybe he meant they should be true according to Gurbani.

You told me in another topic that unless one has read the scripture they should not comment on it so why are you commenting on Islam without ever having read Quran and Hadiths? Quran clearly tells Muslims to suppress non-Muslims and force them to convert. Aurangzeb followed Islam to the core and so did Jahangir. Try comparing definition of a Muslim in Quran to Gurbani and see the difference yourself. There is not a single verse in Gurbani that tells Muslims to follow Islam.

Again, missionary work is not wrong but methods to carry out this work could be wrong. There is nothing wrong in preaching and telling others to become Sikhs but if we use the same methods as Muslims or Christians then certainly we will be wrong. Unless you provide some credible evidence from Gurbani that we shouldn’t preach Gurmat, your statements will only be counted as personal opinions and not facts. Guru Rakha

Gurmat is missionary path (more so than other religions) but the approach of Sikhs is different than Muslims and Christians. Forcing someone to change their religion is wrong but that doesn't mean missionary activity as a whole is wrong. In other words, missionary work is not wrong but the methods to carry out this mission can be wrong. Here is a short write-up I wrote a while back on this matter.

The proofs that Sikhs believe in missionary work are abundant. It must be noted that Sikhs do not believe in forceful conversion or converting others by lying, deceiving or offering materialistic rewards. Also, Sikhs do not seek converts just to increase their numbers. Rather Sikhs believe in having converts of high caliber with moral and ethical standards as well as dedicated to the true path of Gurmat. Sikhs prefer quality over quantity.

Sikhi is a whole life system meaning unlike other Indian traditions it does not believe in renouncing the world but living in it and carrying out full social responsibilities. It is not a philosophical system but a way of life. The Gurus spent 240 years to establish this path by putting it in practice and ensuring that people were not only able to renounce 3000 years old traditions but also live up to the ideals preached by Guru Nanak Sahib. Since it is a way of life and the divine path is established for the welfare of humanity it is irrational to believe that others should not know about it or should not practice it. Not only early Sikhs but two of the Gurus initially were following Hindu traditions who later converted to Sikhi. If no one ever converted to Sikhi then where did Sikhs come from? It therefore, proves that Sikhi is a missionary religion. Here are some proofs.

1) Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the most authentic source. Guru Nanak Sahib in his own hymns explains why he set on long journeys. In Raag Maajh, Ang 150, He explains that He was called in the presence of God where God blessed him with Naam and commanded him to spread it in the entire world. His divine mission was directly from God. Guru Sahib spent more than 25 years on long journeys to preach Gurmat during which he met many religious leaders, corrupt and immoral government officials as well as many kings and showed them the right path. He established his religious centers wherever he went and appointed heads to spread Sikhi. It shows that people who became Sikhs were converts and Guru Sahib ensured that someone was left behind to spread his teachings, which is why he appointed heads. He also met ascetics who had renounced the world and held discourses with them. Such discourses make it clear that Guru Sahib convinced the ascetics to return to the world and declared their path wrong. It is completely foolish to assume that Guru Sahib went as far as Sri Lanka, Mecca, Tibet and Nagaland but never converted a single person to Sikhi. Bhatts, Sikhs, Bhagats and other Gurus make it clear in their own hymns that Guru Nanak Sahib started a new distinct path by the order to God and spread his true message in all four corners.

2) Works of Bhai Gurdas are the second most authentic sources. He clearly says that Guru Nanak started a distinct path which he calls "Nirmal Panth". He also confirms that Guru Sahib received divine command to spread Sikhi. Bhai Gurdas himself spent many years in Aagra, UP and Kashmir to propagate Sikhi. Janamsakhis also state the same thing.

3) Guru Amardas Ji established 22 manjis or 22 preachers to spread Sikhi in 22 states of Mughal Empire. He then established 52 peerihis to further propagate the message of Sikhi. Guru Amardas had trained his son-in-law as a Sikh preacher who went to Akbar and explained Sikhi in such a manner that Akbar himself came to see Guru Sahib.

4) Guru Arjan Dev Ji compiled the Sikh scripture, built Darbar Sahib (Golden Temple) and converted many Hindus and Muslims to Sikhi. Jahangir writes in his own diary "Tuzik Jahangiri" that Guru Sahib had converted many Muslims and Hindus to his own path for which Jahangir wanted to kill the Guru.

5) Guru Hargobind, 6^th Guru, sent many Sikhs to Kashmir, Aagra, U.P., and other parts of the country to preach Sikhi. He even organized the Udasis which served as the first missionary group of the Sikhs. Guru Tegh Bahadur toured the country extensively and went as far as Aasam to preach Sikhi. It was on his tours that Guru Gobind Singh was born in Patna. Guru Gobind Singh finalized and completed the mission of Guru Nanak Sahib. He states in his own compositions that by the command of God he established the Khalsa Panth. About 80,000 people took Amrit in a few days. He organized the Sikhs as an independent religious and political order. He also started Nirmala order which was also a missionary wing of the Sikhs. Nirmalas were sent to many Hindu centers where they established Gurdwaras and preached Sikhi.

6) Prominent Sikhs like Baba Banda Singh, Nawab Kapoor Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia and Bhai Mani Singh converted many people to Sikhism and always replenished the ranks of the Sikhs even during the great holocausts. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale at few occasions converted 10,000 people a day. Many preachers go to Gurdwaras around the world and preach Sikhi. This all proves that Sikhi affirms missionary work.

The above facts show that the Gurus not only started the true path but also took effective measures to spread it. During the time of the 10^th Guru, one could find Sikhs from Kabul to Sri Lanka and every town had some number of Sikhs. This was the result of missionary works setup by the Gurus and carried on by the Sikhs. Sikhi is separate religion that has its own ceremonies, place of worship, scriptures, symbols and dress. Further it is a social system in which there exists no caste, gender and varnashram discrimination. It is for everyone to benefit from. Had it been against missionary work, it would've died a long time ago and existed only in books just like philosophy of Socrates etc. The Guru would never have organized and done missionary work themselves. They established numerous Sikh centers for Sikhs to gather and practice their faith. There is not a single verse in Gurbani, Vaars and other authentic sources and a single incident or an example in Sikh history that can prove that Sikhi preaches against missionary work without which it will cease to exist. It is the responsibility of Sikhs to propagate and spread the true divine path so the entire humanity can follow the ideals and teachings of the Gurus. Sikhs believe in Raj Karega Khalsa which implies that one day everyone in the world will become Sikhs and only true Khalsa shall rule the world.