Inder Singh

Read this thread before raising elemenatry questions

"The revered mother asked Bhai Kirpa Ram, ‘What Guru ji is doing?’ He said, ‘Revered mother’, Guru ji is preparing ambrosial nectar of the double-edged broadsword for administering it to the Sikhs.’ The revered mother was deeply moved on hearing this. She instantly came to Guru’s presence with a lawful of patasas. Paying at first her obeisance to Guru ji, she poured the patasas from her lap into that bowl. The all-knowing Guru ji did not look at her and continued with his recitation of Jap ji with full concentration. After reciting the sacred compositions of Jap ji, Jaap Sahib, Sawayyas and Chaupai, he recited Anand Sahib. When the ambrosial elixir became ready, he stood up and performed the Ardas. Concluding it with the prayer; he called out Fateh, and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal.

This too is almost a complete statement on the above aspect of the event, described in a simple, systematic, explicit and plausible way, which we miss in other available contemporary - or near-contemporary - accounts, including the works mentioned above. It is very useful and encouraging to note that the basic elements of the process of the preparation of the nectar and its administration, as mentioned by Kaushish, accords in their basic formation with what is outlined in the Sikh Rehat Maryada approved in 1945 by the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar, and which are in actual practice uptil now, that is more than two hundred years after the completion of the text of Guru Kian Sakhian by Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushish.

from: Creation Of Khalsa as Described by Bhat Sarup singh Kaushish

Reproduced by Dr harnam singh shan

Tony

Debate is done with a person who ahs some basic knowledge of topic. But you are a layman as for Dasam Granth is concerned.

Charitropakhayan is writng of Guru sahib.There is internal evidence in Dasam Granth sahib.The purpose is to caution khalsa aboutmoral pitfalls.

Doing parkash of dasam granth is not to bring it to same level as SGGS ji.Below is a picture of Dasam Granth parkash during Maharaja Ranjit singh's time.

When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs. When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab. (pages. 120-123) ________________________

*Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)

Unquote

Are you telling us that Ajkali Phoola singh ji did not know about Gurmat.He would have sent anyone to hell if he tried to present a suspect scripture.

Read Guru kian sakhiana nd Bhai jaita ji's granth to know what banis were read in 1699 before doing bukwas here.

Firstly I respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib and still learning the first steps of Sikhi.

Writings of all Gurus are to be respected.

- Why is that we Sikhs do so many akhand paths now a days where as this wasnt a way of doing path till abt 150 years ago.

Why is Dasam Granth sahibnot in parkash now when it was in parkash all the time till 1944. That is the question i am asking you.

- Why is that the Prakash of Sri Dasam Granth done at the same level of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Why it should not be done when sikhs already know SGGS is elder brother and Dasam Granth sahib is younger brother. Two brothers live in same house.

-

Why is that there is so much dilution of the Dasam Granth and we are all aware that it is not a complete reflection of what was originally written

This is mischief laden question and is far from reality. There is no dilution.Earlier you were writing that it was not all guru sahib's writing.

-

Is it not that the powers to be are trying to focus the minds of the sikhs from there root beleif and faith.

Powers that are inimical to sikhi are attacking dasam Granth sahib as it gives us our Amrit sanchar, nitnem banis and ardas. Their main attack is to make sikhs without Amrit.

- Did we used to have the 5 banis in the amrit vela before 1925, before the origin of SGSS.

This is another nonsense question. Yes we know that sikh literature of that period testify that. Read sikh literaure before indulging in propaganda here.

In the near future is the focus going to be to have 100 sakhi, or Suraj parkash or others to be given the same stature as Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

All sikh literature will be focussed upon and Suraj parkash is an accepted granth for katha.

Sikhs need to wake up, and use their brains to Think. Why is it that there are so many Gutkas where it clearly states of donig so much path of a shabad (mantar) will provide with x and z.

Sikhs need to be beware of anti sikh agents who are here to carry out anti sikh propaganda.

Wake up, Wake up and Wake up. The british started diluting the sikh religion and followed by the others. And now we dont need any external parties, we the SIKHS are pretty capable of screwing our own faith.

british did not dilute sikh religion. They did not interfere in sikh religion much.The real interference started after 1947 and accelerated after 1984.

Propaganda against Dasam Granth , a scripture of khalsa, is a part of that with a view that sikhs shorn of their identity will face extinction in due course of time.

Mind it any slander of dasam granth is prohibited on sikh sangat.If you do not refrain it will be reported to Admin.You are doing bukwas since yesterday.

I do not endorse what tarmala does.

But let us not equate akaj with tarmalas. Akj is a respected organ of panth and live a gurmukh life.

When one does bhagti and at higher level of consciousness body movements are not under control.

These are vibrations that are felt when listening to gurbani. So let us not pass unnecassary comments if we

do not know stages of bhagti.

These things are normal.

I

f you read my reply above, I said I was asking a question. There is a difference between writing and compiling. Writing is actually writing it, while compliling is putting something together. Like an Amrit Keertan Pothi, the bani is written by Guru Sahib, but the pothi was compiled by Gursikhs early on this century. So I am not questiong whether Guru Gobind Singh wrote this, but more so whether he compiled or put it together. Gutkay contain bani written by guru sahib, but they didnt compile them..

He put it togther during his life time.That is why his hand written pages known as khas patras are there.He had scribes and his corrections do appear in beer.

Unfortunately this beer was lost during sack of Anandpur and later sold to a sikh by a pathan.It is still held by a private house.

Second beer compiled in 1698 is at patna sahib.

Afterwards Baba Binod singh, baba deep singh, bhai mani singh had written there own beers. To doubt such gursikhs is a sin since they had been companions of Guru sahib.When their beers were matched contents were more or less same.

I am not doubting mentioned gursikhs - again you are assuming!!

More or less the same?? SO if some wrote a copy of Guru Granth Sahib ji which was more or less the same, with a few extras, or a some bits missing, would you accept it as the same granth which was installed as our living guru in 1708 by Guru Gobind Singh?

I think you are straying from the subject. Have you seen kartarpuri beer? Have you seen goindwal pothian ? Like this you will be opening a pandora's box in respect of SGGS also.Tgere are pages missing from kartrapuri beer, there are deletions and multiple corrections .This is not the subject of discussion.

in case of dasam granth i have given you beers which are essentially more or less same.More or less same means that since we have two beers written before 1699 they do not have zafarnama whereas others have.

Applying same parameter that you use for denigrating Dasam Granth please show where it is written SGGS was installed as Guru. Is it written inside SGGS ji?

Those who disrespect dasam granth are not followers of SGGS ji also.This already is demonstrated by kala afghna gang and spokesman heretics who have disowned SGGS and nine gurus as well. They have disowned Amrit sanchar also. They started with dasam grantha and have gone to atack SGGS ji. It is all over the net.

I

f you read my reply above, I said I was asking a question. There is a difference between writing and compiling. Writing is actually writing it, while compliling is putting something together. Like an Amrit Keertan Pothi, the bani is written by Guru Sahib, but the pothi was compiled by Gursikhs early on this century. So I am not questiong whether Guru Gobind Singh wrote this, but more so whether he compiled or put it together. Gutkay contain bani written by guru sahib, but they didnt compile them..

He put it togther during his life time.That is why his hand written pages known as khas patras are there.He had scribes and his corrections do appear in beer.

Unfortunately this beer was lost during sack of Anandpur and later sold to a sikh by a pathan.It is still held by a private house.

Second beer compiled in 1698 is at patna sahib.

Afterwards Baba Binod singh, baba deep singh, bhai mani singh had written there own beers. To doubt such gursikhs is a sin since they had been companions of Guru sahib.When their beers were matched contents were more or less same.

Gurvah, on 21 December 2009 - 06:40 AM, said:

Accepted that I haven;t seen anywhere in this debate promoting Dasam Garanth as Guru , but I have seen it in previous posts elsewhere. Thank you for claryfing that. Bani in SDGS can not be disowned as we read it everyday in our nitnem and as part of amrit sanchar.

Absolutely.There is no doubt that SGGS is our Guru and there is no other equal to SGGS. At the same time Dasam Granth is our second most important scripture.Its banis are recognized by sikhs and SGPC. We have panj granthis and das granthis by SGPC. Banis of Chandi di vaar, bachitra natak ,chaubis avtar and other compositions are in that.

It is writing of our Guru and sikhs have every right to accord it its old glory.

Accepted that I haven;t seen anywhere in this debate promoting Dasam Garanth as Guru , but I have seen it in previous posts elsewhere. Thank you for claryfing that. Bani in SDGS can not be disowned as we read it everyday in our nitnem and as part of amrit sanchar.

Absolutely.There is no doubt that SGGS is our Guru and there is no other equal to SGGS. At the same time Dasam Granth is our second most important scripture.Its banis are recognized by sikhs and SGPC. We have panj granthis and das granthis by SGPC. Banis of Chandi di vaar, bachitra natak ,chaubis avtar and other compositions are in that.

It is writing of our Guru and sikhs have every right to accord it its old glory.

Mate, you are not making sense.

1. "Compiled by who?" - Yes I did say that, I am asking a question here and having a discussion, not making a statement. I don't know who compiled it, so I am asking the question.

2. "Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings." I DIDN'T write that as I said in my reply above. That is from the last sentence of Tony's post.

Get Your facts straight!!

1)

You wrote

quote by Gurvah

I Never said that there was no beer around Guru Sahibs times

Now you write that compiled by who? Since beer was compiled during Guru sahib's time who else can compile.His hand written pages are there in beer.

Let us restrict this to one thread only.

LOL get you facts straight first I never said that - someone called Tony did if you read properly..

Tony, on 21 December 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:

Fateh . . .

3. We all read in the dohra: "Guru Granth Ji Manyo Pargat Guran ki Deh" however, now we are stating that look we dont believe in what our Guru ORDERED; but we will go against it and will do the path and satkar of Dasam Grant like it is Guru Granth Sahib. Impact: dilution of the overall impact of Sikh religion and its faith and teachings. Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

That is my bad. Let us see your statements. you are saying same thing in a different way

You wrote

Compliled by who?

Then in anotehr post you write

Quote

Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

That means you do not believe Dasam being bani of tenth master. That is what other gurnindaks are saying.

written by Gurvah in anotehr thread

Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

making duplicate statements is not a sikh way

LOL get you facts straight first I never said that - someone called Tony did if you read properly..

Tony, on 21 December 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:

Fateh . . .

3. We all read in the dohra: "Guru Granth Ji Manyo Pargat Guran ki Deh" however, now we are stating that look we dont believe in what our Guru ORDERED; but we will go against it and will do the path and satkar of Dasam Grant like it is Guru Granth Sahib. Impact: dilution of the overall impact of Sikh religion and its faith and teachings. Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

Accusing people of things they haven't said is not the Sikh way either my friend

That is my bad. Let us see your statements. you are saying same thing in a different way

You wrote

Compliled by who?

Then in anotehr post you write

Quote

Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

That means you do not believe Dasam being bani of tenth master. That is what other gurnindaks are saying.

I Never said that there was no beer around Guru Sahibs times

Gurvah ji

I have to term you as a liar and a distorter.

Read below. This is your statement. This is oputright lie and double standards.

http://www.sikhsanga...29entry444029

I haven;t got a problem with reading Dasam granth bani, but Guru Gobind Singh, made Guru Granth Sahib the Living, not Dasam granth, that was compiled after.

written by Gurvah in anotehr thread

Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

making duplicate statements is not a sikh way

and FYI I have no issue with Taksal or barsi of Baba Takhur Singh.

It is always appropriate to have these separately.

But your query went further than arrangements.You had said that there was no beer of Dasam Granth sahib during Guru sahib's time. That was a remark on the hsefulness of the whole exercise. My reply was in response to that.

I Never said that there was no beer around Guru Sahibs times

You certainly wrote given below. Do you deny that

Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

What does it mean.

Gurvah

Your answer is already given by the original poster at beginning of this thraed

6.If Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji's parkash cannot be done with Guru Granth Sahib ji, why is Baani of Dasam Granth printed in Same Gutka Sahibs which have Baani of Guru Granth Sahib ji? Are we doing a Paap by printing Baani of Both Granths in One Gutka Sahib?

Should Baani of Nitnem be Separated?? Should Baani of Dasam Granth not be read in Guru Granth Sahib ji's presence?? If Baani can be read, then why the Granth Having that baani not be kept with Maharaj ji??

Pyareo, Dasam granth is always placed on left hand side of Sanctum sanctorum at Takhats or at Left Hand side of Guru Granth Sahib ji at Taksal or Nihang Chaunis. Its for respect of Guru Granth Sahib ji ,showing superiorty of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Dont we do parikarma of Maharaj with keeping Guruji on our Right hand. Ever thought why we do that??

Khalsa ji, look for answers, and do mail me if u think i'm wrong on any point. Its not abt 'Guru' khalsa ji, i'm sure my Guru Granth Sahib ji is never angry and will never be angry if we respect our Guru Gobind Singh ji's Baani in his holy presence. Sri Dasam Granth has been reffered to as ''Chota Granth ji'' in history books, like younger brother of Guru and today ppl are making them look like two opponents who r fighting it out. Plz wake up, and stand up for respect of Sri Dasmesh Pita's Baani! Unite Khalsa ji, the day we unite, these Pakhandis, our outer enemies will just vanish in air, they'll not be seen around,then only we can together strive for a Strong and Prosperous Sikh Nation. Have faith on Baani. Our History has everything, just search it and u'll find every tradition we are following is from time of Gurus, taught by Gurus themselves and not by sum Bahmans.

Also see this photograph. Puratan sikhs knew much more than us. To doubt persons like Bhai mani singh is to disown sikh history in totality.

Why did Guru Sahib not say anything about Dasam granth then in 1708 when he installed Guru Granth Sahib ji as the eternal Guru?

There is no clarity on this matter which is why no knows for sure. Although I do believe the bani was Guru Gobing Singh ji's, it is not correct to propagate that it is Sri "Guru" Dasam Granth???

So now you are revealing yourself.It is always good to talk straight.

None is promoting it as Guru. So please correct your statement. SGGS ji is our guru.Such statements emanate from gurnindak organizations like Singh sabha canada and missioanries to mislead sikhs.

At the same time Dasam granth is our second most sacred scriptpure that was always in parkash alongside SGGS ji after guru sahib left this world. Its parkash was lifted in 1944 from Akal takhat by SGPC,. This is the result we are getting now that people ahve gone to the extent of disowning it.

In the same tone i ask you where is it written that guru sahib gave gurgaddi to SGGS ji.

This is not to doubt the position of SGGS which is our Guru. It is to ask those who are detractors of Dasam granth why such regulations are applied to Dasam Granth only?

and FYI I have no issue with Taksal or barsi of Baba Takhur Singh.

It is always appropriate to have these separately.

But your query went further than arrangements.You had said that there was no beer of Dasam Granth sahib during Guru sahib's time. That was a remark on the hsefulness of the whole exercise. My reply was in response to that.

The Word is the Guru, and the surti (of the soul) is a disciple of the sound (of the word). In practical terms, it means that when the Word is spoken, listen to the sound of the Word with your surti; your surti will merge into the Word.

Bhai sahib ji

In this pankti it does not refer to spoken word. It is shabad that is being heard without being spoken.

As per the previous years and what the gurdvara sahib commitees agree to, the sevadaars have always done amrit velah divaans, talks, amrit sanchaar and eve divaans whilst an akhand paat sahib jee is happening, its the same as what happens at sri darbaar sahib jee, kirtan happens in the main darbaar, akhand paats are happening directly above, and katha at manji sahib in the complex of sri darbaar sahib, whilst all this is happening the kirtan can be heard everywhere.

If someone wants to listen to gurbani, then they can listen to the akhand paat sahib, some prefer to listen to kirtan aswell, hence the kirtan darbaar and to cater for those who want gyaan there is katha... When the original barsi thread was started we did ask for sangats suggestions, and thse who emailed, we have listened to and are trying to cater for the sangat, hence the gurmat veechar, amrit sanchaar and the ** LIVE BROADCAST** as per the wishes of the sangat.

In previous years gurvah has been banned and tried to question taksal, the barsi etc, so this is nothing new, however its nice to know your views havnt changed.

Keep up the good work.We are in revival mode.

Good thread for additional inf

Good information on Dasam granth beers

Compliled by who?

Many times people project them scholars without knowing details.It is better to learn our history before doubing it.

Compiled by Guru Gobind singh ji in 1696.

So if you cant do parkah of any other granth then you cant do any katha of any other granth. What happens when people do rehraas from a Gutka, isnt that also doing parkash of a granth?

There is a difference between doing paath from a pothi/gutka, and bow down to it as the jot of Guru Sahib. I haven;t got a problem with reading Dasam granth bani, but Guru Gobind Singh, made Guru Granth Sahib the Living, not Dasam granth, that was compiled after.

Dasam granth was compiled during Guru sahib's time.That was hazuri beer.

It was always parkash till 1944. It is Guru sahib's bani.

3. We all read in the dohra: "Guru Granth Ji Manyo Pargat Guran ki Deh" however, now we are stating that look we dont believe in what our Guru ORDERED; but we will go against it and will do the path and satkar of Dasam Grant like it is Guru Granth Sahib. Impact: dilution of the overall impact of Sikh religion and its faith and teachings. Completely knowing that the Dasam Granth has been mixed with peoples own writings.

In the same tone may i ask who wrote that Dohra?

Dasam Granth was always in parkash along SGGS ji during Dal khalsa and sikh rule. There was no dilution then and there will be no dilution now also.

Only gurnindaks say that Dasam Granth has been mixed.There is no mix. Stop propagating this nonsense as it amounts to mischief.

confirmed no dasam granth parkash will be dne @ willenhall - tarsem singh deol

bst way 2 stp any argumnts

Who are you to say this nonsense.

This site does support dasam granth sahib. You will be reported to Admin.

lol who u 2 report me? hve i said anyfink against dasam granth or in favour?

i js said itz da best way 2 stp argumnts,as the commitee seems anti n da oragnisers in favour of dasam granth - look hw insecure u r js read ur post m8 - on abt reportin me wht hve i dne wrng which breakz rulez?

Dasam Granth parkash will be there.What amde you to say that it would not be done?