Only five

Is Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Ankar, and lobh Sargun or aspect of Sargun?

Based on my research and sangat of mahapursh, what happens is when bhramgyani (self god realized soul) body gets tortured- they actually don't feel anything they are bedeh mukht- liberated and separated from body- 5 senses (touch, sight, feel, hear, taste) their consciousness is merged into supreme consciousness - vahiguroo, easier way to get slightest idea so we can somewhat relate, when we are in deep sleep- one can slap us, spit on us, blow trumphet near our ears, pinch us etc nothing happens to our deep sleep state, we are like rock solid in deep sleep sleeping.. how we are all oblivious in that state, now thats normal deep sleep if in normal deep sleep we are so oblivious of surronding imagine what enlighten state might be in inside deep non transcendental meditation.

Skeptic should see this video of buddhist monk- divine power working through him. he is worm just like us compare to sri guru arjan dev ji but imagine if buddhist monk can peacefully in non transcendental meditation posture passes away without any movement/pain while being burned alive (just a glimpse of divinity), what satguru nanak dev jagat guru in 5th form - patarkah divine expereince can do during his shaheedi..i am just posting the video below to break people scientific confined skeptical logic..they cannot explain this video even if they want to..!!..this is where divinity power starts where all logic all fails..!!

This is the case of the elephant and four blind men. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj calls such Shakti as nothing. A fat man unable to jump like Michael Jordan see's from his perception Michael doing impossible jumps. Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj sitting on the hot plate cannot be compared to what the Buddist did.

Banda Singh Bahadur tried to use Shakti on Maharaj and Maharaj gave him a good lesson in Hukam. Divine is Satguru only. Others is just a magic show.

So why do Kundalini yoga?

Thats true, i would say he is de-attached/nirlaip yet in everything. He is with form but at the same time formless as per my understanding of deep sikh theology and as per gurbani cautionary updesh. Vahiguroo exist in sargun (three gunas but not confined in sargun), nirgun (non transcendental- not confined in nirgun) nirankar (formless not confined in formless) sun samadhi (non transcedental meditation not confined in sun samadhi) jaap (jaap/ajapa jap but not confined in ajapa jap).

I consider Ikongkar as never ending flow supreme consciousness which is de-attached/nirlaip from all aspects but exist in all aspects equally.

Usually, individual human consciouness confine (due to influence of maya/past life tendacies and our dualistic nature) flow of sargun-nirgn-nirankar (Ikongkar) in their consciouness to sargun only -attached themslves to reference points/sargun divine expereinces in the flow which turns into hindrance/desires/dualism rather than being nirlaip (let go maya influence/past life tendacies)- being one with spontenous/never ending flow of Vahiguroo- one vision/perception ikongkar ~~Supreme consciouness awareness bliss ~~ ~ !!Turiya!!~~ which exist in all its aspects (sargun/nirgun/nirankar/sun samadhi/ajapa jap-shabad surat) yet be attet/rehat-deattached/free from it as (not being confined to anything -atet/rehat as supreme consciouness ,exist in everything equally) is very nature of Ikongkar.

When you say Waheguru is formless are you not confining him based on your knowledge? Take for example creation. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji says n his katha of Gurbani this creation is like a humans dreams. The drama take place, but in the beginning, in the middle, in the end it was an illusion. When you say Sargun is permanent, then how can you turn around and say Sargun is subject to the 3 gunas or this universe is Sargun Saroop? Sargun cannot be absorbed into Nirgun when Nirgun is another attribute of Akal Purakh. The universe along with 3 gunas are not permanent as Waheguru is. When I read the Salok from Sukhmani Sahib that you posted in your last post the better translation of Nirankar into english is permanent. As Nirankar is still an attribute of Akal Purakh.

kaal is maha kaal and maha kaal is akaal purkh himself

Thats exactly what i said, kaal is transcedental sargun(with gunas/maya) aspect of maha kaal/nirgun roop, maha kaal is non transcedental aspect/roop of nirgun.

In this topic you also state that Kaal is Sargun. Once again you are defining non-permanent things into permanent existence. Sargun is permanent. Kaal is subject to creation and vice versa .

According to sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale gurbani katha on sargun nirgun nirankar sun samadhi aap apan kiya nanaka ape fer jaap ashtpadi. Sant ji explains nirankar which is vahiguroo is rehat from akaars (forms) and ateet (loose translation de-attached) from three gunas (trai gun-rajo, tamo sato-sargun) so according to my understanding from katha - nirgun and nirankar are synonymous to each other as they both have some of similar connotations.

To be ateet from the three gunas does that automatically translate into formless? To be rehat from akaars does that mean to be formless? I don't think so because he is Ik Onkar. When Bhagat Dhanna Jatt Ji was given Maharaj darshan, he saw Ik Onkar. If Ik Onkar was truly formless, then how could anyone realize,unite, see, feel, or hear him?

Formless is a subjective term used by humans to say I can't see him due to my inability. Just because you can't see him does not mean he is formless. Formless is derived from how far humans can see. But Ik Onkar is not subjective in any shape or form. Ik Onkar stands on its own and is objective. Ik Onkar is thee form.

Method of Naam Simran.

Someone started a good topic on this on another forum. Here is what was said:

Unfortunatley there are various gursikhs in the jatha who are anti loud naam abhiyaas. If it is their personal preference to do simran quietly then that's fine. Just don't look down on others. They think they know better and follow lower level gursikhs in jatha (in comparison to bhai sahib) who prefer quiet simran. The point here is that both quiet and loud naam abhiyaas is parvaan in gurmat.

Firstly they are going against Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh who advises to jap naam with force with gurmat vidhi which causes naam russ to come. Secondly let us go direct to the Guru ji for his advice. It is proven in ithaas that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave hukum to Mata ji to do swaas swaas simran and when saying guru touch the tounge to the palate and say guRU with force (zor naal). When done like that, it can give the sound effect of a lion roaring depending on how deep ones voice is. It may sound like a dog barking to his lord master. Or if in even higher pitch may sound like a rainbird singing to the clouds in the sky for the rain drops to come down. So those within or outside jatha who ridicule loud naam abhiyaas who sound like roaring lions are actually laughing at the hukum of Sri Guru Gobind Singh maharaj.

So naam japo jio:

ਮਿਲਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਜੈਕਾਰੋ ਰਾਮ ॥

The sainlty gursikhs do loud jaikare of Akaal!

So be very careful what you laugh at…

It says ਗਾਵਹਿ , which means to sing. I don't see anywhere the word 'loud' comes in the original.

Now will those nindaks of bhai sahib not bow their head in shame for doing ninda of one gursikh disbelieving rag mala but continuing to show respect to those nirmalas who didn't believe in rag mala? Why pick on bhai sahib only? Isn't this discrimination which is totally anti sikh like?

The surprising thing is that most prominent Sikh scholars from Nirmala background were opposed to Raagmala but today their descendants keep a deafening silence on this issue. Mahakavi Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, Pandit Tara Singh Narotam, Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha etc. were fierce opponents of Raagmala. Bhai Veer Singh originally did not believe but changed his mind later in life for unknown reasons. Interestingly he never gave any reason why.

The point is both sides have good reasons for believing in rag mala or not, but do be anti and slanderous of someone who disbelieves rag mala but praise other gursikhs (like mahakavi Santokh Singh) who also didn’t believe in ragmala. These hypocritical nindaks are bound to receive stiff punishment in dargah (after life).

This is an excellent point, which I was just about to write. Those that slander Bhai Randhir Singh hold utmost resepct for Mahakavi Santokh Singh ji. They quote him every chance they get. But when it comes to Bhai Randhir SIngh ji, they slander him for many things, but especially when it comes to Raagmala. Why single out Bhai Sahib on this only or AKJ? Why not use the same manipulative writing toward Mahakavi Santokh Singh ji. I have one good reason why they don't slander Mahakavi Santokh Singh. It is because of group affiliation. If they speak wrong about him then other Singhs will isolate him and see him as bad. But if something is uttered of Bhai Randhir SIngh ji then the same person will not be isolated from the Jatha. They will all have a good chuckle about it. However the same is true about AKJ where some refuse to call Sant Baba Jarnail SIngh ji as Sant. Inner circles mock Sant ji regarding issues and then they praise Bhai Sukhdev Singh ji Babbar. Even some Nihang Singhs refuse to call Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa as Sant all because of disagreements.

This jatha mentality is in Nihangs, Taksal, Nanaksar, AKJ, and the rest of them. Countless times I have been said to be part of Taksal and then they curse me out for going against what Bhai Gurmukh Singh did at the funeral of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji. They go to extend of branding me with this title. Emotional blackmail has also been tried on me on this forum and in the Sikh community. All of this happens because of jatha mentality.

What does jaap sahib say about nirgun /Nirankar?

I don't know. Can you answer the question I put to you?

For understanding purposes, Bani in gupt or non transcendental state hence Nirankaar- without akaar.

So you are saying nirankaar means without akaar, which means without form. You also describe Nirgun to mean non transcendental. Does that mean you also say Nirgun means without akaar?

Vaho Vaho bani Nirankaar hai as per gurbani.

So what does Nirankar mean here?

Loose term non existence but close accurate term would be non transcedental. Ikongkar in pargat form is understanding of both transcedental form and Ikongkar in gupt form non transcedental- thats closest i can think of something which cannot be described totally as per gurbani

okay, then can you define Nirankaar?

In a different thread you pointed out that Nirgun means non existence. How can Nirgun mean non existence, when Satguru says.......Ik Onkar?

There is difference between sargun in sidhant being permanent eventually folding itself in nirgun non transcedental form and individual consciousness making it permanent, when individual consciousness makes it permanent its creates an road block or an desire to be in realm of sargun . Hence, creating hindrance for itself to raise awareness from sargun to nirgun in his/her spiritual development and also not to mention contary to satguru ultimate updesh on raising awareness to eternal shabad and eventually into gyan- real self- non transcedental pure awareness consciousness bliss- ikongkar..!!

Bhagat Dhanna Jatt ji focused on Sargun as permanent and he was united with Akal Purakh. Bhagat ji did not face no hindrance. Infact after devoting himself to Sargun, Maharaj blessed him with seeing Maharaj, where no one else could see him.

I don't see conflict on statements because i was not talking about sargun in reality literally being confined in sidhant itself but rather sargun is being confined in individual consciousness and thats where i was getting at above. Sri guru gobind singh ji is sargun and nirgun both, if seeker or an individual confine sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj in his/her consciousness limited to only sargun saroop, they are not being aware of sri guru gobind singh ji nirgun roop which is eternal shabad and gyan- self- non transcendental nirgun roop which is ultimate reality and ultimate updesh of gurbani .!!!

So what if someone confines Satguru only in Sargun? As you said sargun is permanent.

If someone can try bringing Nihungs back in the mainstream that would be a good start. Did anyone raise a voice when the imbeciles in the SGPC and Akali Dal kicked them out from the panthic mainstream via depriving them of their historic precedent over the Akal Takhat? As far as I can see the mainstream treats them like a joke.

The Nihang Singhs of the past are not the same Nihang Singhs today. The same is said about Taksal. Sant ji has gone gupt and the fake leaders have corrupted the institution to the core. Many disgusting things happen and the leaders will commit murders to keep them quiet. The current Jathedar of Nihang Singhs is a government agent.

The government of India wanted to corrupt both institutions so Sikhs will not trust them. Well these days have come and long gone. If Nihangs and Taksal want to regain respect of the Panth, they need to make huge changes to it's leadership. They need to install the strict Rehat Maryada that existed when true leaders of both Jathas were in power.

This fantasy world of saying there is nothing wrong with both Jathas has contributed to the corruption from within. Even add Nanaksar to the list. The focus has shifted away from Maharaj and on to Babas. Even Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj did not get the status as Satguru, what makes anyone think a Baba will get this status and/or be treated as Satguru.

To the OP AKJ has also been accused on this forum of being influenced by Bhasauria and therefore hold many views he did that are manmat. It would be nice if you can clear this up for the sangat here. As there are always two sides to a story and your side should be heard. The regular members know for how long we had to hear the other side non stop on this forum.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/08/24/lori-welbourne-topless-reporter-kelowna-mayor_n_3810043.html

Thanks to N30 for answering the questions. So in one of your first post you had stated the following:

According to my understanding and i have checked with gyani sher singh ji regarding this also, passage from sri dasam granth regarding various avtars subjected to kaal as their sargun saroop were in fact subjected to kaal as our physical body are all made out of panj tats -body will merge back in maya (see in shalaok nauvan), is to simply raise awareness of sargun upasakhs (of time/present/future) from sargun into nirgun gyan.

Above- raising awareness also indicitates why sri guru gobind singh maharaj gave such strong cautionary tarna to us followers so we don't confine him into only sargun aspect-

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |

In your last post to me where I asked you whether Sargun is permanent you answered yes it is permanent; in the following way:

Sargun saroop of maharaj appear and disappear (unfold and fold) as per hakum of akaal purkh as gurbani does not get destroyed but appears and disappears (alop and loup). So to answer to your question, it is permanent because when is aloup/gupt its in deep non transcendental state (nirgun state) and when its pargat its in transcendental state (sargun) but whats common behind two states is never changing jot ~~ Supreme consciousness Awareness ~~ which is - Ikongkar gyan of naam/shabad itself....!!!!!!!

Do you not see a clear conflict between the two statements you made?

Body of sri guru nanak dev ji- Sri guru granth sahib ji. In gurmat, yes sri guru granth sahib sargun saroop is worshipped by using nine types of bhagti mentioned in gurbani.

Is Sargun Saroop of Maharaj permanent?

In puratan sikhi tradition at the beginner, intermediate stages of one surti- sargun saroop of akaal purkh- sri guru granth sahib ji is worshipped by nine types of bhagti-

Baba Tirath Singh Nirmala in his translation of Pundit Gulab Singhs Bhavrasamrit (p42-44) mentions the nine limbs of Bhakti which are referred to in the Sikh tradition as the Nvai Parkar (Nine methods)- this is mentioned in sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale gurbani katha ang -71 and also mentioned by sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale:

What is meant by beginner and intermediate stages? Does that mean Sikhs on higher levels don't worship Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? If not, then what do they worship?

Can the body of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji be worshipped?

You have dodged the question. The answer surely can come with an explanation, but all that is needed is a yes or a no. So for the third time can Sikh worship Sargun Saroop of Akal Purakh?

Define sargun worship with examples first? Anyway, do you want to create a separate thread regarding this as british sikh veer mentioned we are going off-topic.

There are no examples. Simply can Sargun Saroop of Akal Purakh be worshipped by Sikhs?

Same jot- ek jot all across board, sri dasam patsah talks about ek jot-

Zeman zaman kai bhikai samasat ek jot hai

na ghat hai n badh hai na ghat badh hot hai ||

Yes they are not subjected to kaal...i thought when i mentioned satguru nanak dev ji it automatically includes all our guru sahiban.

Can Sikhs worship Sargun of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj?

Satguru nanak dev sargun (physical body) saroop were not subjected to kaal as their body was made of shud satogun (out of rajo, tamo sato maya).

You still did not say what you meant by same jot.

Also does that mean Sri Guru Angad Dev ji's body is not subject to kaal?

In order to stop terrorist you do not agree with their demands. Throughout Sikh history we have been taught this by Satguru and his Sikhs. Human Right issues were and always will be number 1 issue for Sikhs on a worldly level. Therefore, the actions of the Sikhs who filed the cases against the Badal terrorist are Gurmat and are in support of the people of Punjab's best interest.

If you want a proper representation of Punjab so future business deals do not get hindered, then speak to the Babas of Punjab to stop supporting the butcher and support a party that will help their followers out of suppression and depression economically.