Only five

Same jot of nanak in all avtars and in everyone equally no ghat no badh (zeeman zaman akaal ustat)- thats ultimately our "gurmat advait" sidhant, it was nanak nirgun parbhram all along - Anek hai Phir ek hai... body and antish karan (for us mere mortals) are subjected to kaal not jot nor hari avtar or guru avtar as they are profound incarnation of nanak nirgun/they disappear appear (14, 16, sarab kala- read japji sahib steek by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale about six types of avtars) of nanak nirgun/akaal purkh , jot is maha kaal/nanak nirgun akaal purkh supreme consciousness not subjected to kaal that would indicate dualism and would against every foundation set in gurbani !!

Sri Dasam Granth rightly talks about about avtars subjected to kaal as they were in terms of body just like everybody else ( panj tatwas- shalok nauvan) - guru maharaj set the record straight to rise people surti's from sargun into nirgun as people were stuck in sargun upasana and wrap their head around sargun avtars- made that into road block themselves in their spirituality..rest people can check with parcharaikhs of the panth

So was Satguru Nanak Dev ji also subject to kaal?

And what do you mean by same jot?

did this really take place?

Then the business deals should start first at home. Give back Punjab it's rivers. He can sit at home and deals this out. Instead of Sukhbir Badal trafficking in drugs to Punjab he should be making business deals with Pakistan to stop his own trafficking criminal organization. The people that will get the jobs are not the people suffering if he makes any business deals with Canada. It will only strength his own criminal organization and get a great strong hold on major businesses in Punjab. Look what happened to the transport bus business. Look at what is happening to the milk industry in Punjab. There is more corruption today than there was decades ago.

Badal is a dictator in Punjab. Try to open a business that is directly in competition with Badal. Nothing good can come from Badal coming to Canada. However Badal cancelling his trip shows to the Canadian politicians that he is most likely guilty and scared as to get arrested and convicted.

Satguru Nanak Dev ji and Akal Purakh are one. I agree a lot of what N30 just said but let's put the any form to the test of Gurbani. Bhagat Prahlad ji was saved by Narsingh avtar. Gurbani says Akal Purakh came down as this form and killed Bhagat Prahlad ji's father (the attacker). Then Dasam Bani says that Narsingh avtar was subject to Kaal. Read Gurbani and Sargun or Nirgun Saroop of Maharaj are not subject to Kaal. Both are above Kaal and are Akal. So it cannot be said Narsingh avtar was one of Satguru's Sargun or Nirgun form.

LOL you know what i wrote quite a harsh reply to you before i edited this i clicked on your profile and saw that your still a university boy, chal well i think we shall leave it at that if you HONESTLY think that i slandered baba ji then you should be doing more than insulting me singh, sikhs are fearless and never put up with anyone bad mouthing our gursikhs i for one wouldnt let it stand.. Good luck with the exams little bhaji may they bestow more worldly knowledge onto your young shoulders.

That's the difference from those who have spent time with Gurmukhs and I guess you did not understand the demonstration I just put on. So what did you achieve by slandering me a manmukh? What will a person achieve by slandering a Gurmukh? Fearlessness requires to be free from the passion of anger. Otherwise it is just a front to cover up the insecurities of the person.

Do you mean that Guru Nanak Dev ji dipped his toe in water and let the followers drink it to be initiated.

Then this says that Dasam pita just took this initiation to another level by 'CHANGING" it to Khande-Bate-da amrit !!!

Where and when did any of the Gurus do this 'cultish' act ?

Do you not find it insulting to Dasam Pita's introduction of amrit because it is like saying the initiation service was always around but he only changed it !!!

I have previously questioned this same comment made on some other thread by yourself or other members. I hope you can enlighten me and the rest of us to teach us something here.

How is Charan di Pahul against Sikhi? So Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji compiling Adi Granth would be equally insulting as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji just changed Adi Granth to be the 11th Master and how dare Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji already have Gurbani written down ready to be compiled!!!!!!

It is a fact written down by Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars. Before you go around calling something you can't comprehend as cultism act maybe read up on it yourself. Very quick to judge.

Name calling! That's what they got him for. This is sad because now Hindus can claim that Dasam Bani is name calling their Gods. What did the 10th Master call Krishna? Anyone remember? That Bani has been copy and pasted on here at least 10 times for a matter of 2 years. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is mocking Krishna.

I'm no fan of Inder Ghagha, but there seems to be more to this story that is not being told.

Who wrote the Bani and it is available online for others to read?

read khalsa mool mantar

Can you explain in detail what you mean by the above.

You speak of 35 kathas done by Sant ji, so where are they? You were only born no earlier than 1980s. Sant ji left this world in 1961. Did you listen to all 35 kathas when you were not born?

Where does it say that Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the basic frame work of Gurbani interpretions. Now you are putting words in the mouth of Satguru. Satguru said Bhai Sahib Vaars are the key of Gurbani. The basic frame work of a key is when the key is not cut. It looks similar to the key that is needed when it is uncut. But when the key is cut, then the key is the key. It will open the lock.

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji was writing down the correct interpretation of Gurbani, but then the Punjab Police put the bus that sangat gave on fire and the Pothi Sahibs were inside the bus. So I doubt Sant Ji's teacher was against writing down Gurbani. And if Sant ji was against writing down katha, he would not have done audio recordings. Audio recordings work in the same way.

Yeah that does make sense and I agree Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaars are 100% key to Gurbani.

Can that be true and also the thought that Gurbani may bring new rang (maybe wrong to say interpretation) in the new ages as people do more and more khoj. From my understanding Gurbani is also like an ocean because even if you read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaaran multiple times you will always be able to go more in depth.

Singh, that is personal improvement, but the interpretation does not change from what Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars already state. The issue is not that Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are not new age or Bhai Sahib did not do a good job of explaining. We do not have the ability to understand Bhai Sahib on the first, second, or even third try. It's like a math equation. We make many attempts to get the exact figure, but sometimes it does not work on the first, second, or third try. Many find math frustrating because their are absolute values. They give up after couple of tries. Those that work hard at the equation will understand what is the answer and will know how to attain the answer.

Nothing new is going to come out from anyone. What a Gurmukh can do is put things into perspective for those that have a hard time understanding Bhai Sahib. Putting in perspective means to use current popular events to deliver the message home. The interpretation stays the same just more familiar terms will be used. However nothing can replace terms like Shiva, Krishna, or similar terms. As there is no modern Shiva, Krishna, etc. So it is on us to go back and study who these people were and why are they being presented in Gurbani. Bhai Sahib did not lack the knowledge as we do. Therefore his Vaars were given the title as the key to Gurbani.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't think that means there is a 100% exact interpretation. What I mean by this is how missionaries want everything to be broken down into their own exact terms so it is "simple".

Satguru said Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani. Without any doubt this means Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars ARE the correct interpretation of Gurbani. The only way they can be wrong is if some fool came along and purposely changed Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji did not agree with one tuk, which was posted on sikhsangat while back. Either this Vaar was changed or I humbly say Sant ji is wrong on the matter. Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars have been given this status not by some simple Sikh, but by Satguru and we need to respect this to the last letter regardless of how much we disagree with a Vaar. Anyone's interpretation of Gurbani that does not align with Bhai Sahib is wrong.

Missionaries, Nihangs, Taksal, AKJ, Nanaksar, and the rest cannot deviate from Gurbani and the test of if someone has deviated from Gurbani is Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. If any jatha views and interpretations go against Bhai Sahib's Vaars then consider it manmat.

A key cannot be cut partially right or 95% right. The lock will not open. The key has to be cut just exactly so the lock can be opened.

again you seem to be hurt by my comments which were not AIMED AT SANT JI but more at random "sants" and "baba". Please re read my statements if you really have a problem and if you feel that i have disrespected sant ji then you should do more than just shout abuse at me infact you should send me a PM and teach me a lesson lets see the soldier part of your saint soldier in action. Again how do you judge if someone is a gurmukh im all for listening to people who know more than us just that there are a lot of fake people in this world i would rather trust my own judgement. again i reitirate please send me a PM if you strictly want to engage in throwing out child like comments.

I hit two birds with one stone. First you did slander Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji and you got a proper response. Second think back to a thread where you instulted me; something to do with non-Punjabis dating Punjabi Sikhs. Ring a bell.....lol I did not have foam coming out of my mouth as you have now. So it really shows how you urban Sikhs want to dish it out and forget about it, but can't take the heat.

Don't start something and others will be respectful............But I do like how you tried to hide your madness throughout the post, but just couldn't control yourself at the end. :strong: :biggrin2:

A good debate for all Sikhs to watch because it hits home on a few issues we're facing today. If the Sikh Raaj had still prevailed I would imagine such a debate hall in a good University would have existed in Punjab/India today.

She did make some good points, what I agree with her is that you can't make an exact interpretation. In Sikhi doesn't Taksal, Nihang Singhs and Nirmale say that no one individual has a final say on interpretation and the reason for Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale not writing his katha in likhat saroop is because he didn't want his katha to be the final say as Gurbani is Agaad Bodh and in the future interpretation may slightly change. The clear line I will draw here is that you can't change a meaning of a scripture. For example the controversial verses in the Quran and the various hadiths that call for murdering non-believers and not befriending Jews/non believers can't be interpreted to they do not mean they call for murdering non believers ect. In Sikhi we don't face a problem of interpretation of such verses because Gurbani is from Akaal Purakh and there are no contradictions nor is there a call for violence, but instead to fight against the Panj Chore on a daily basis.

Singh, can you explain what Satguru meant when Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are the key to Gurbani?

It is only christian based or braminvaddi sikhs calling for vegetarian in sikhi. Theres saying from the sikh empire of a hindu boy wanting to become a muslim to eat meat, and a sikh saying then become a sikh we can eat anything.

If you have not heard, Christains eat meat openly and even say Jesus fed his followers meat. Also Brahmins eat meat as well. They just don't eat the meat of a cow or a horse.

Member Mehtab Singh ji has made an excellent point with this post. I would like to share it with some members on this thread:

This is not directed towards any one particular member of this forum specifically, just my own general observation, so please correct me if you think I am wrong.

All these people who posts extensively against Islam, who/what are they? Have you guys thought for a second that they could be Muslims themselves disguised as Sikhs over here dissing their own faith, just so you start researching on it and (hopefully for them you might not know much on Sikhi either) you end up screwing your brains out and eventually converting to Islam? Ever heard of reverse psychology?

Reverse psychology is a technique involving the advocacy of a belief or behavior that is opposite to the one desired, with the expectation that this approach will encourage the subject of the persuasion to do what actually is desired: the opposite of what is suggested.
http://en.wikipedia....erse_psychology

We do know that they are "allowed" to disguise themselves, right? You never know who is the person advocating hate.

Same goes for Hindus. All those who are preaching hatred for Hindus/Hinduism on here, do you guys have any idea at all who those folks are? This is the Internet people, do NOT trust everyone or everything they say. For all we know, the next person who disses Hindus on here could be a RAW/GOI agent looking for those who are ready to gather and fight. I suspect those guys possibly read these forums regularly. Also don't forget, there were sarkaari agents within the Kharkoo groups who caused the downfall of the entire movement. Ragi Darshan used to say a Sikh is not a Sikh unless he is a Khalistani. Now see his true colors! He walks around with armed Hindu commandos guarding him.

So just watch out! Again, I repeat, this is not directed towards any one particular member of this forum specifically, just my own general observation, so please correct me if you think I am wrong. I also apologize if this offends any brother/sister. I am not an alarmist or scare monger trying to cause mistrust. But be very careful. Reverse psychology is used by intelligence people all the time to get those who they want to get.

No bro, thats an obvious one... We know a lot will end up wherever, so never do we plan to put any Gurmukhi Gurbani on the leaflets...

I don't know if you have already done a video on this topic. If not please do one to educate the non-Sikhs and our youth. Looking at the situation today on this topic we have as a Panth completely lost respect for Gurbani. Calendars, wedding cards, newspapers, library shelves, grocery stores, among other places is where Gurbani is printed on or placed and no one cares what is placed next to Satguru's Bani or who has access to it without following proper procedure to handle Gurbani.

VJKKVJKF

Bhaji, I've not got any plans for India at all. I plan on focusing on West. If the Indian Sikhs get inspired by Sikhi then they can get on with replicating the Parchar. We're making the "3 facts leaflet" in Hindi and other European Languages. It just needs people to get them printed from our website, hand them out and talk through them. We definitely need the Sangats support as we haven't raised enough to cover ourselves for this year. The link to donate is http://www.everythings13.org/donate and you can use either paypal or "virgingiving (like just giving).

Kirpa ji

Singh is there going to be any Gurbani in Gurmukhi on these leaflets? Please don't put Gurbani in Gurmukhi on the leaflets.

Bhenji, I think you need to look at this in a different way. You see the rest of the world from your window, phone, internet going about their lives freely. Where you feel trapped and confined to a bed. You can blame your misfortunes on karm and think about what you did to deserve your current predicament. Think about death as the sweet escape and how bad you have it. But what if the people around you were just as trapped as you are? What if their karm have also landed them in a similar predicament as you are currently. Would you advise them in the same manner as you are advising your mind right now?

Ever heard of the term sweet jail (mitti jail) come from the mouth of a Punjabi who came from india to a western country? In the same manner the people outside your window are trapped and they don't know it. They go about their life as they are not caged in a limited place. A prisoner feels trapped because he can see the four walls that are holding him in. But the people in the world are completely unaware of the walls that are holding them in. This is where you know more than them. You have recognized that you are trapped not only in your body due to health reasons, but because the atma is trapped in the body. The blinds have been lifted from your eyes and you can see much clearer now. You know that peace can't be achieved through just good health and material things. If it could then peace could be bought. On the opposite side is death. Many have tried as well to attain peace in this manner, but the pain has increased and never decreased.

Your mind is active and still able to comprehend what is going on. The beauty of Sikhi is you don't need to go anywhere or see something in the world to attain peace. Satguru Sri Guru Teg Bahudar Sahib ji was physically trapped in a cage, but he was still free from dukh. Satguru Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji was physically trapped on a hot plate and he was still free from dukh.

You are not lacking in anything. Make the mind that has trapped others in the world prison as the tool to carve out the peace you are seeking. No hand movement, no walking around, no physical activity is needed to do this. Just listen to the one that powers everyone in this world. Whatever Shabad of Gurbani or paat you have. Play it on your phone and just listen. You don't have to do no more than listen to the shabad. Once you start listening, then the next steps which just require the mind will start automatically falling into place. Let go and let Satguru completely take over. No if and, and buts. Completely surrender the mind to the Shabad and listen.

I can only think of two things at this moment..

1. The jathedar of akaal thakht has always been the jathedar of bhudda dal, this was the case up untill the early 1900's.....

And

2.buddha dal is no longer recognised as the 5th tackht...according to sampradas they are, nirmals, sevapanthis etc do....

Now the current jathedars response to the current situation in dehli is a joke...so in the eyes of law and mainstream sikhs he is the leader of our khalsa army...

From my observation nihang are not stupid, they are not political but understand the game of politics....these act such as delhi and current panjab trouble is very much political...now if nihangs were to get involved they would be taken out by india police/army as our jatherdar would not back them....

So you are saying preservation is more important than standing up for righteousness? I think you need to read Sikh history again as Nihang Singhs of the past always stood up for righteousness with the sword. The governments of the past were head hunting and this never stopped Nihang Singhs along with Taksal Singhs from standing up for righteousness with the sword. This reasoning of yours does not align with Sikh history or teachings. You speak of 1 vs. 125 000, so why not apply this to the so called fauj of the Khalsa Panth. Why be scared to fight when you are 125 000 strong. The current Jathedars have no army, so how can they back anyone in the first place? Plus the Nihang Singhs have their own Jathedars to run their jathas. If Nihang Singhs are so trained in the art of war, then send a hand full of them down to delhi to serve justice.

Baba Hari Singh ji fought in the attacks against Sikhs in the 1980s and 1990s. Do you see him worrying about preservation of his jatha?

Call it conspiracy if you like...from day dot sgpc are hell bent on erasing pratan sampradas, 4 main are nirmala, udasi, sewapanthis and nihangs....sewapanthis hold no threat hence not attention given to them in erasing them so to speak...they are no threat to the mainstream watered down version of sikhi....they have more or less taken out udasis and nirmalas only one left is the stubborn nihangs...even the british said the nihangs are the most stubborn and need to be exterminated (as they were the biggest threat to their ideology)...

Again, it's the same argument you put in the first one. Nihang Singhs do not preserve Sikhi. They preserve their OWN Rehat Maryada. In the past the Nihang Singhs stood up for preservation of Sikhi. Today they are sitting back and letting everything disappear.

I still have not come to the answer to your questions veer but i hope we both are coming to understand thinfs a little better...

Now lets talk from the mainstream view of sikh were we shoukd all be amritdharis as we are all equal and 1 can kill 125000, well veer from the delhi incident i saw many singhs, with shaster.. now if 1 singh is equall to 125000, well veer do the maths....

Now forget nihangs taksalis and jathebhandis such as akj, be honest here now...do not post on this topic ask yourself can you really take out/ko 5-10 peopke regardless of your learnt art, gatka, shadter vidiya, boxing, maa whatever, personally very confident one on one, id also welcome 2, more than that i would have doubts.. im only asking this to soormeh, warriors... those shant ras who are dissolved in the worship of the lotus feet of nirankar, their act of bhagti alone is enough to take out the whole yug...

Here is the difference. I do not claim to be a Nihang Singh. I do not go into a farmers field and kill his goat in the name of God and watch my belly get the size of a pregnant woman. I do not take intoxicants in the name of God and then go steal the hard earned food of the shudras. I do not kill a tied up goat to anoint weapons with its blood and call myself a warrior.

You know what Nihang Singhs are know for today among Sikhs in India. The crazy people that fight amongst themselves with swords and guns over who is the jathedar. So yes, they really showed how stubborn they are.

This topic was about maryada on hunting...its a shame m8st nihangs or those who claim to be nihangs/warriors do not follow it, i say most not alll...

just like their are many so called taksalis especially in the uk who only do nitnem santhiya...the whole point of being a student in taksal is to study all granths and a proper recitaton of gurbani and learn the arths...akjs who do not learn raag just do a 3 month crash course on the bhaja and go on stage...i go back to neo veers comment so simple....just be honest with yourself...wether your a keertani, or yodha or pure sevak, bhagat, what ever you are be honest and in that there will be natural ekhta, when we do things out of ego theres naturally divisions....fateh

This is about warrior traditions that Nihang Singhs carry proudly. If you want to talk about other jathas traditions, then start a new thread. Stay on topic here and don't try to dilute the topic.

I recommend Sikhs watch this episode where a "modern Muslim" is expressing her views. Her views are an eye opener because of how extreme her views are. Well I won't get personal, but some Sikhs need to look really hard in the mirror and see if they see this woman in them. I don't agree much with Islam, but this women is just another extremist from the opposite side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA