chhokaranwala

its well researched and presented articulaltey by Manoj and Phoolka

Its a far cry from the rhetoric filled hate filled crap given out by most Sikh groups today who like to reduce everything to race/religious/caste hatreds

the truth is that most Sikhs of today are but a faint shadow of the past soormas

mabye this is because of the uncomfortable fact that probably about 80% of todsys Sikhs only became Sikh when it was protifable to do so - ie under the British and without real faith for the teachings of the Gurus

instead they try and make up for their inadequacies by becoming petty haters and looking for conspiracy theories to cover their own weaknesses rather than face the world with honour and bravery

the Sikh struggle and Tamil fights are totally different situations

one is based on religion the other on race

the historical and political contexts are also totally different

In Punjab they are working in full force

Indeed even in the holy city of Amritsar you will see people looking like Sikhs (full beard/turban etc) wearing a cross or upon questioning identifying themselves as Christians

The problem is even worse in the Jalandhar Doab area where is is fast snowballing into a potential major crisis for the Sikh panth in the future

Instead of wasting time on pointless arguements and debates the Sikh leadership should be working to inculcate values and morality amongst the population

umm yeah - lets not get too dramatic - :rolleyes:

not quite the shoe thrown at Goerge Bush - more like a gentle lob to the side

Nevertheless - credit to him to raise a very valid message to the public at large

I agree

we have to be very careful to establish the genuine from the fake

we also have to have confidence like in our past that the light of Sikhi will automatically attract the kind of people that are attracted to the teachings of the Gurus

after all Punjab has always been the lad of sants and fakirs and the Sikhs never felt threatened before becuase of the proud self confidence of our forbears

a rambling post so typical of many brothers these days

what happened to the open hearted brave Sikhs of the past ?

are we just lost in self pity ?

what has happened to the ability to look at ourslees critically instead of looking to blame all an sundry for the problems affecting our community - Why is it always somone elses fault ?

the Sirsa clown is a speck of dust and yet some brothers cant seem to identify themelves as Sikhs unless they hae someone to hate

some very insecure people on this forum

the only confusion is creating by the false pride of individuals

just becuase some rituals are followed by the sevadars at the Gurudwara does not automatically give someone the right to label them as 'brahmin' practices

once again the scapegoat mentality which dominates more and more young Sikh brothers these days

just a sad refelction of people being 'Not Hindus' as opposed to being Sikh

Being Sikh should be enough for any follower of the Gurus and such paranoia and weakness will only lead to the fall of many Sikhs in the future to a racist talibanised dharma the very same our Gurus fought against

For Sikhs Ravidasji is a Bhagat

for his followers he is a Guru

there should be no problem with that

The Kabirpanthis refer to Bhagat Kabir as their Guru and declare themselves as Hindus -

Our path should be the one laid down by the Gurus and to insist and enforce our beleifs on others is not the Sikh way

still a good point

its good that these poor people get asylum in India

a true Sikh should not shy away from any house of God - whether Gurudwara, Dharmsala, Mandir, Mosque or Church

we are slowly developing the same mentality that Guruji fought against

we are slowly losing that freedom of thought and spirit which is the cornerstone of Sikhi

How many Sikh brothers and sisters bow without the slightest knowledge before the Guru Granth Sahib - it is the devotion in our hearts that is important and that can be found anywhere if our minds are focused on Akal Purakh

history is not black and white

many of the Sikhs Misls also ruled territory by applying Rakhi - which in essence is a form of blackmail - ie you pay or die

we had also become chronically divided before the rise of Ranjit Singh and were as busy bashing each other as any enemies and some were committing all sorts of evil deeds - It took a powerhouse like Ranjit Singh to discpline them. Even then its interesting to note that the Sikh Rajahs like Patiala and Nabha never joined the Sikh Empire - first dilly dallying with the Marathas and then with the British

in 1785 the Sikhs of the Malwa Misls signed a treaty with the Maratha Mahadji Sindhia who was then ruling Delhi

like I said I cant understand people who want to diss others for the sake of feeling better about themselves - that is not the Sikh way

your right bro - but we should be the last people to be involved in distorting it even more - even if its to settle with the RSS

The Marathas had a more or less seperate history from the Sikhs but at the same time to get back to the point of the topic starter their acheivements do not take away from Sikh acheivements and we dont need to be distroting history ourselves

they had some great leaders like Shivaji their founder and then Baji Rao who broke a very large section of the Mughal Empire in the 1730 s . even at the end they had people like Mahadji Sindhia who after the Battle of Panipat brought the Marathas back to Delhi and even had a treaty with some Sikh leaders. It was after he died that the Marathas went into civil war and allowed the British to step in.

I dont think they even used the word Dravidans in thoese days by the way - so your assumption that they went on pogroms against them is a little unsound - indeed apart from Maharashtra itself most of their empire was based in what was called Hindustan in those days.

Did you know that there were some groups of Sikhs who were actually in the Maratha amy in the Second Anglo Maratha war of 1803

The Sikhs were less concerned with Delhi as our focus was more around Amritsar and Lahore where the most powerful Misls were centered - remember Punjab was a lot bigger in those days and Lahore was a huge city

'racist forerunner of the KKK' :gg: ?

Im not sure what connection you can make between a regional/tribal army to the modern day RSS - sorry to offend you but thats taking things just a little bit too far for me -

They used to call themselves Deccanis as opposed to Hindustanis by the way - The Battle of Wadgoan was a big blow to British prestige - and the first Anglo Maratha war produced no real winners - intereseting to note that the British waited almost thirty years after this war and after the Marathas has nearly three years of civil war before beginning the Second Anglo Maratha war

Many of the early Misls also ran on the 'rakhi' system - it had nothing to to do racism or hate but just the way warrior groups used to operate in that day

As far as I see it there was as much coperaration with the Marathas as well as conflict - it was a time of the survival of the fittest and before the rise of Maharaja Ranjit Singh some Sikhs even used to fight each other - I mean look at people like the Rajahs of Patiala _ although they were part of the Khalsa Panth they were always up to no good even allying with the British against the Sikh Empire

Luckily people like that are a virtual footnote in Sikh history and only the true warriors and shaheeds are remembered like Baba Deep Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa

the truth does not impact on Sikh acheivement - we still defeated one of the most formindable armies in the world at that time

but we dont need to hate on others to prove anything - The Marathas expanded their empire - came to Punjab for a while and then got defeated by the Afghans - they came back some years later and then lost their empire to the British

Timur Shah Abdali lost to them in around 1757

http://www.afghanland.com/history/ahmadshah.html

They also fought with the British in three wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Maratha_Wars

they also beat the British in the Battle of Wadgaon

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=113693

none of this takes away from the glory established by Maharaja ranjit Singh who not only secured Punjab from invasion and brought peace to it but also brought the fanatical Afgans into line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh

these are the same people who the combined might of USA and UK today is struggling to control and yet the Maharaja managed to bring these people to heel

i think that all the above posts have some merits

the concept of daswandh is meant to help the give as much as the person taking the benefit so to speak

The Marathas and Sikhs were never really rivals for power in Punjab and Delhi

the Marathas were in Punjab in the 1750's at a time when the Misldars were consolodating power and they actually acted in unison . they were granted the revenue of Punjab by what was left of the Mughals at this time and worked in unison with Adina Beg of Punjab . the Sikhs were with them when they took Sarhind and then Lahore and when some bands of Marathas chased Timur Shah Abdali towards Peshawar

They also had many points of valour in their history as well and until the Battle of Panipat gave the Afghans a real scare. even after this battle they returned to Delhi a few years later where they remained until the British turned up. They were actually outnumbered in the Battle of Panipat and depiste losing managed to kill quite a large number of Afghans - they were helped before the battle by Maharaja Ala Singh of Patiala

in the meantime they had a rocky relationship with the Misls of the Patiala and Malwa region

They also beat the Portuguese in western India in the 1730's

in any event their field of action was different from the Sikh warriors - The Sikh warriors were maninly focused in libverating Punjab and the adjoiing areas and fighting the great war with the fanatical Afghans - eventually making the proud Durannis bow before the might of Maharaja Ranjit Singh

the sad truth is that most Sikhs today are more animated by the politics of hate and are moving away from the true roots of Sikhi

we spend more time on what we are not rather than what we are

some identify themselves by hating on Hindus - other by hating on fellow Sikhs

time to get back to basics

surely the ten masters must have expressed all emotions in their time on earth

many times they must have gone into battle in full fighting mode - the very verses of the Dasam Bani are enough to rouse a warrior to furious action

Hi - no insult to anyone but we cannot pretend that the ten masters existed in a vacumn

after all we can only learn about the times and people amogst whom they lived which can only help our understanding of dharma

Sikhi is based on knowledge and action and we cannot be afraid of the truth or hype ourselves on falsehood and hatred

it is not in the Sikh spirit to demean others

in the past Punjabi Sikh ballads would sing of all brave warriors even not from our area or religion like the ones about Jaimal and Fatta the Rajasthanis who fought to the death against the Mughals or Dulla Bhatti (Muslim) who fought against the emperor Akbar

Some interseting facts - in the seventh century it was the Rajput Kingdoms who defeated the Arabs under their king Bappa Rawal

that it was Chandragupta Maurya who defeated the Greeks in India

its was Skanda Gupta who defeated the Huns

Babur referred to Krishnadeva Raya of Vijaynagar as the greatest and most powerful king in India

that it was Baji Rao who led the Marathas to conquer more than half of India in the 1730s and 1740s

that it was Rana Pratap who kept fighting with the Mughals and whose clan never really gave up the struggle

and the greatest of acheivements by the Sikhs who broke the back of the Afghans and chased them back to their mountains with the power of the sword and dharma and marched against the Chinese Empire and gave the British empire a bloody nose

we dont need to hate on others to be proud to be who we are - there is more than enough in our history

to be a Sikh is not to be afraid of the truth

we dont have to put down any other religion to feel better about ourselves - there is enough in Sikh history regardless

the truth is that the Muslims were on a conversion agenda for centuries but ongoing resistance put them off - we just have to look at how they hated and hunted the Sikhs at a later time

If you read William Durant he reckons that almost 100,000 Muslims warriors had to immigrate to India every so oftern in order to cover their losses in wars and battles

remember it was India that blocked the Arab advance in the east

and by the way Ahmad Shah Abdali was opposed by a whole host of people

he first was defeated by the remants of the Mughals in 1754, then he had a seasaw wars with the Marathas with both sides pushing back and forth from Delhi to Peshwar from 1756 to 1761 - he fought a huge battle with outisde the city of Mathura with thousands fighting to defend their holy city. He had another battle with sadhus at the Hindu town of Gokul in 1759. in between he assualted the Darbar Sahib and shaheeds like Baba Deep Singh gave their heads for dharma

if you note that by the time the British came around there were hardly any Muslims kingdoms around

these things dont dim my respect for the Sikh warriors but only increases them - a lot of Sikh brothers want to dismiss anything non Sikh but the truth about the Sikhs is even greater without trying any tricks

interesting points traveller bro

I personally thought it would help me learn more about my faith if I understood the time Guru Nanakdevji came to earth

after all the christians know all the history around Jesus and Romans etc, and the same with the Muslims and Muhammad

then with our people they live among such prejudices and hatreds its hard to sift the truth behind what really happened

personally my respect for Guru Nanak has only increased knowing the violent and dangerous climate in which her was born

can u imagine preaching what he preached at a time when Hindu and Muslims in all parts of India were killing each other by the truckload ?

there were Muslim kings who would kill you just for saying that all religions are equal

there were Hindu warriors who would kill you over a scrap of land