Genius

You really want to define rats, well here is additional information for your kind of `Sikhs`. I got the word a few minute ago, that your so called Dasam Granthi Sikhs actually paid a drug dealer and a convicted criminal to carry out a hit on a seminar attendee in Edmonton, Alberta a day after the seminar was held. His crime, well he questioned these Dasam Granth supporters about their stand of supporting the Granth even without reading it. Well I guess your side does follow what is taught in some of the Chritars in the Granth.

You either are Paul Grewal or he gave you that information. That is lie. I never heard of anyone getting murdered in Edmonton in the last week.

You Singh Sabha Communists talk about "Guru de gun Dharo" and that's all you have to do. Then you have Paul Grewal's so called "Sikh" wife who swears and insults fellow Sikhs all the time in the Darbar in front of Guru Maharaj. Oh yeah that doesn't matter, to you communists Guru Granth Sahib is nothing but a "rule book."

You know, every time there is a noise for the rat, it thinks it's a cat around the corner. Every time there is police chopper in the air, every drug dealer thinks that the police are looking for him. So I guess you must be scared of a Gursikh named above, and then everybody to you everywhere looks and sounds like that Gursikh.

I never said that a person was murdered. What I said was that an attendee to the Dasam Granth seminar was brutally and physically assaulted with the intention to murder, for questioning the Dasam Granthi dudes about their lack of knowledge about Dasam Granth and its contents. A case is pending in Edmonton, Alberta Police.

You call them communists and they label you RSS. I don't know what your labelling rationale is about them but I am very clear about their labelling rationale. RSS promotes Dasam Granth in a big way so does your group. They also preach and practice the same Brahaminnical rituals that you follow in the guise of Sikhi. Hence, you have so much common with RSS. I think rather than you worrying about who I am you should be arranging the 'bhog' ceremony of your leader, Rulda Singh, RSS Punjab Head, who was gunned down in Punjab about a week ago.

By the way if you need information and updates relating to any seminars being held by Singh Sabha International, then simply contact Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala or their local organizers and they will let you know everything I stated here.

You really want to define rats, well here is additional information for your kind of `Sikhs`. I got the word a few minute ago, that your so called Dasam Granthi Sikhs actually paid a drug dealer and a convicted criminal to carry out a hit on a seminar attendee in Edmonton, Alberta a day after the seminar was held. His crime, well he questioned these Dasam Granth supporters about their stand of supporting the Granth even without reading it. Well I guess your side does follow what is taught in some of the Chritars in the Granth.

If true, this is regrettable. I encourage you to ascertain the details of the matter.

I would caution you against inferring that the Dasam Granth is invalid due to the zealotry of its supporters. It should be noted that supporters of Guru Granth Sahib (that sounds weird, sorry) are similarly zealous. For example, you may have heard that some people killed Seonwala after he wrote in the Spokesman that Guru Granth Sahib didn't receive the Gurgaddi. (By that token, "Guru" Granth Sahib is a misnomer. Should we say "Bhai" Granth Sahib ji instead?)

Well click on the link below to the Edmonton Police website and call the number and ask about the details of the case registered and the incident relating to a local Realtor named Kaul Toor the very next Monday evening after the Guru Manyo Granth seminar was held. Kaul was the one who had asked questions to the Dasam Granthi 'Sikhs' protesting outside the seminar about the contents of Dasam Granth that aggravated them. He was set up in an empty house for showing and had the drug dealer that was already hiding inside, hit him on the head multiple times with baseball bat with the intention of killing. However, he managed to escape and the police arrived within few minutes. Kaul was taken to emergency bleeding profusely but survived. There is a Canada wide arrest warrant issued for the guy's arrest. http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/ Try the south east side division, where I believe the seminar was held.

Admin Note: 2nd Warning given. Under Moderation until further notice.

I went Hazoor sahib this summer nearly all the gurudwara had dasam granth prakash (thats how it should be). I also went to mehta chownk to damdami taksal(bhinderan) and there was dsamgranth prakash there. so what im trying to say is that the dasam granth is inseperable and there is no need do debates as there was no need before. those want to depbate they must believe that they know more than mahapursh like Sant Jarnail Singh, and Singh Sahib Jathedar Kulwant singh and also the Puratan singhs.

Do so called Mahanpursh know more than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

Did Guru Gobind Singh ji know more than these so called mahanpursh and installed Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as the only Guru and guide for all beings and not even mention about 'his' own so called 'Dasam Granth'.

Don't tell me that Baba Thakur Singh was also one of these Mahanpursh who LIED to Sikhs all over the world for nearly 21 years about Baba Jarnail Singh was alive.

Admin: Note: First Warning given. Read Forum Rules & Guidlines, section: Dasam Granth Sahib & Dis-respecting sikh saints.

I

still advise that the best way to handle these guys is to have a discussion with them face to face in a civilized manner. Let their so called experts answer your questions and get your so called experts to answer their questions. Have it recorded and present this to general public and let them decide for themselves what is the truth.

Discussions with whom? They are not amritdharis, do not do nitnem, take liquour, do not believe in naam simran etc etc. Is prof. Darshan Singh not Amritdhari? He is ex-Jathedar of Akal Takhat. He does do his Nitnem. He does not drink. As a matter of fact he preaches against it using Gurbani. One group's naam simran definition is different from another's.

They do not know when was Dasam granth written? I don't believe anybody does.

Do not know when it was compiled. I don't believe anybody does this either.

Do not know what message it gives. I think that is what the main point of contention between pro and anti groups.

Do not have any knowldge of what is the meaning of metaphors, symbolism and myths that are extensively used in Dasam granth. I think Prof. Darshan Singh with nearly 64 years in Gurbani knowledge would be a better candidate on that subject than any of younger kids debating on it on the internet.

Any stupid may raise such doubts on scriptures sitting in their bed rooms. When people refer to others as stupid simply because their views are different or are of challenging nature, this displays both ignorance and ego, not the qualities of a Sikh.

Sikhs have been instructed by a matta of akal takhat not to have any dialogue with these gurnindaks. There is an edict to answer these fools' questions to promote Dasam Granth then who are these intellectuals are trying to reply to. Isn't that a debate going on where the environment gets emotionally charged and nothing ever good comes out that? Why not have the same thing in private.

Do you obey akal takhat? I do believe in the authority of Akal Takhat but not in the character of the individual currently presiding over it. All jathedars are simply political puppets and continuously fighting among themselves over petty issues exhibiting their egos and lack of knowledge.

if so why are you advising us to have dialogue with a bunch of fools. There is an edict to answer these fools' questions to promote Dasam Granth then who are these intellectuals are trying to reply to. Isn't that a debate going on where the environment gets emotionally charged and nothing ever good comes out that? Why not have the same thing in private, which is what I have been advising.

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Fw: Boycott::Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala Coming to Bay Area on August 22nd Saturday (Original Message)

Gurcharan Permalink

What's the point of going door to door Gurudwaras - why not just nip it in the bud and go to Damdama Sahib and accept the challenge to debate? After all, if the truth is on your side, why is there a shyness to go there. They are your fellow siblings last time I checked.

he is barred fromGurudwaras by an edict from akal takhat. There is an advisory (Sandesh) issued by Akal Takhat not let this individual speak from a Gurghar stage. That is NOT the same as being banned from a Gurughar, which is what you implied in your comments.

He collects a few goonda brigade and goes to pizza parlour and then uses a goonda's languge to spread hatred about tenth amster's scripture. I called the pizza parlour franchise owner and headquarters and they both confirmed that there was NO discussion, seminar or information session ever held at any of their locations. The venue was voluntarily shifted to another larger location once the speakers became aware of the nature of location.

I hope you are a man (Sikh) enough to apologize for spreading misinformation about above two points. Guru ji defined this as Nindya.

Latest that these goondas have started spredaing hatred for SGGS also. I just got hold of a an audio recording of their seminars from somewhere in Canada and all they talk about is how the pro Dasam Granth group justifies Charitro Pkhyan`s erotic contents by labelling some shabads of SGGS as erotic or sexually expletive in nature. They are actually proving to their audience that even those shabads in SGGS are not as being portrayed by pro Dasam Granth group.

Has anyone stayed at the Sri Guru Gobind Singh N.R.I. Yatri Niwas in Amritsar?

Is it easy to get a room or is it like the usual SGPC run Niwas where they put all the half decent rooms out of bounds for ordinary people so that Akali Dal (Badal) workers can use them?

Also who is the UK contact for this Niwas, was the project undertaken by the same Trust who did the project at Hazur Sahib?

Thanks in advance.

When you go there you simply show them your foreign passport to prove you are NRI. These rooms were supposed to be free but they will ask you to pay Rs300 to Rs500 per day along with a damage deposit. It is fairly new five story building with AC and hot water facilities. However, hot water system normally doesn't work. There is a five person elevator. Try getting a room on the 5^th floor facing Darbar Sahib. There are bedrooms with two large beds available at the same rate. But cleanness is almost non-existent. One more important thing, even if there are no more power cuts, they simply walk on to your floor and switch your power supply off from the main control box on your floor. And all you have to do is you open the box and flip your room switch back on and you have your power supply back. AC system is very good. There were some fire incidents due to shady electrical work. So don't get the rooms with burnt out windows on the main floor right behind the reception counter.

I got this email today.

- On Wed, 8/19/09, Amardeep Singh <akhalsa@gmail. com> wrote:

From: Amardeep Singh <akhalsa@gmail. com>

Subject: Boycott::Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala Coming to Bay Area on August 22nd Saturday

To: "FG" <pac@fgselection. com>

Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 1:39 PM

Khalsa jee,

Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha and Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht had already directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

I still advise that the best way to handle these guys is to have a discussion with them face to face in a civilized manner. Let their so called experts answer your questions and get your so called experts to answer their questions. Have it recorded and present this to general public and let them decide for themselves what is the truth.

I

f you would like to know more about the Singh Sabha Canada mission statement, I found that on www.&lt;banned&gt;.com . I understand that they operate around 45 Gurmat Parchar Centers in India that do spread Gurbani Veechar in about 300 villages. They carry out anti-drug education seminars in villages. They are holding regular seminars across India about female foeticide. Their leader Gurcharan Singh Brar was the only one to highlight and make a show of opposition against Sadh Bhanyare Wala`s so called Granth when it showed up in Canada. By the way it is the same Sadh who has burnt various saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So they are just not Anti Dasam Granth singhs, they are way more than that.

How can you analyse (do Veechar) something without reading it. You seem to contradict yourself here. Teachers in schools, colleges & universities simply don't expect the students to read REPEATEDLY but to UNDERSTAND what is being READ. Guru is our Teacher and Sikh means a student. I hope you see the point.

They follow approved Sikh Code of Conduct by doing Dar Parvaan, and not Bhog, because Guru ji is shabad saroop. Jamdoot was a fear tactic used by Brahmin where Gurbani refers to as faults in one's character. Guru ji used the popular language of the time to teach and make it easier for people to understand. It still holds true today.

Regarding Dharam Raj, they explain that when God is inside every one of us, and is watching us at all times, then why would you need some third party to make decision. Gurbani says that `andar raja takhat hai`.

Regarding 84 Lakh joon, Gurbani refers to His Creation as unlimited and beyond our understanding. How can we or anybody else put a limit on His creation. Even Guru ji states this in Gurbani. Their arguments make sense to me.

If this is what they are preaching, it seems to me in line with Gurmat Rehat Meryada. How can you say that those people are atheists?

It is so easy in today's world to label people opposing your personal views as RSS Agents, Kala Afganis, Ghagaists, and Missionary etc. We get so wound up in Anti Sikh conspiracy theories that we start to suspect everybody around us and then whatever they say doesn't hold any value anymore. Yet we are unwilling to invest time to read, understand, and then implement the teachings of Gurbani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Where we go wrong is when people take bits & pieces of information from multiple sources on both sides and take hard line positions on them and forget that they themselves should read & UNDERSTAND Sri Guru Granth Sahib entirely before forming their opinions. If we were to do that then we will have only One source to read from, only One source of knowledge, only One objective, and then we will not have these conflicts.

This is all a lie. They preach atheism whereever they have presence. They have practically no presence in PUnjab. Their presence is some missionary schools who preach atheism.

Gurcharan Jeonwala is a confirmed liar and an atheist. I thought you were to discuss Dasam granth here. now you are widenning the field. It is not possible to have discussion on multiple subjects simultaneously.

Joginder spokesman was a leading opponent of Dasam granth to start with. Now he has started coming out of closet and is casting doubts on whole sikh philosophy. He is writing against SGGS also.You have no shame to contradict what i wrote above. It is amazing that you are ignoring it completely. Are you a sikh even.

Have you understood SGGS ji completely. Then tell us what is meant by naam simran?Where in SGGS is written there is no soul and no incarnation.Please reply.

Request To moderator: Singh sabha is a heretic body who are old communists and who are operating in the garb of sikhism. They do not believe that sikhs need to ahev hair. I will request that the link provided by genius should be removed as their philosophy is anti sikh.

I was not here to discuss Dasam Granth or widen any `fields of discussion`. I simply listed what I have learned reading and listening to both sides.

How can you have a discussion about something when even before you know the other party's views, you are ready to declare them guilty without a charge?

Seems to me you simply want to have this forum to represent one group's views and call that as an impartial discussion. Is that going to further the cause of Sikhism? May be you should read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and find out how many times the word `Veechar`is listed in various forms and what it means. Then calmly contemplate on the Shabad Gurbani and understand what Guru ji trying to tell us all !

Why cry for removing the link. Let people visit their website, read what they have to say, compare your side views against their, and make an informed decision. You do have that right here in Western Educated & Civilized society. Don't you!

If you want a live debate the takhats have chosen an eleven member panel to give the answers to your arguements with the 5 jathedars sitting as judges. The world media will be there and then the proclamation of the dasam granth will be made.

The eleven member panel wish for gubachan singh jeonwala and prof darshan singh to be a party of those who put accorss their questions and views. If they come to tha takhats as they have been asked to many times, this debate would be over but they just want to preach their twisted view and corrupt the anpadh sangat that they can!

Just for illustration purpose see if this makes sense;One person is to be tried for waging a campaign against the free distribution of sexually offensive materials to naive people. However, when the case reaches the highest court, out of five judges, two are convicted rapists, two are guilty of sexual assault, and one is simple child molester. What you think their decision will be !

I am sorry to say, but if someone called your dad a kanjjar, could you have a calm discussion about it?

Well this is what these nindakhs do when they get up on stage. they need to be apposed and their butts kicked, hard.

You give the general public too much credit. Most have no idea of the debate and with this concerted propoganda and constant telling of lies by the nindhaks a lot of people will be swayed by their lies. This is exactly what their aim is, to get a ground swell of opinion moving away from Dasam Granth Ji.

You say that a lot of supporters have not read Dasam Granth Ji, well I ask you, have you read all of Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

First of all I have read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and only based on the concept of Sidh Gost bani had proposed that it is more fruitful to ask these guys questions and explain to them why you guys believe that Dasam Granth could be Dasam Patshah bani.

I get the feeling that hardliners in Sikh faith are actually afraid to sit down and discuss this issue because it will be very difficult to justify quite a major part of this Dasam Granth to have been written by Dasam Patshah.

I formed this opinion not on somebody else`s analysis given to me but the fact that I have read both Granths and compared the views & teachings presented in them. I beleive that Dasam Granth lessons do contradict and at major points are in direct opposition to the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. We all tend to take positions based on somebody else`s analysis presented to us rather than investing time and analysing the contents ourselves.

Let`s see how neutral this website is to having an open discussion about letting people in community have a constructive dialogue rather than using back stabbing such as the one proposed by calling somebody`s franchise headquarters. Wouldn`t it make more sense to spend time and effort to have an online live debate with these guys and let people form their opinions. You guys and I am not the Jathedars of the community.

Nobody has ever been able to present anything negative from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and break people away from Sikhism. But there are so many parts that people need answers for from Dasam Granth.

Lets not use fear tactics such as Kala Afghana etc. to try to scare people away from a constructive dialogue. You don`t throw your family memebrs out of the house and start swearing at them if their opinions are not in agreement with yours. We live in North America and everybody has the right to present their views freely.

Why are we so afraid of somebody presenting information to sikh masses about Dasam Granth. If they are opposing its contents and you support it, then why not hold seminars presenting both sides of the coin. I think we should give more credit to Sikh masses for their intellect than what we give them today. How long are we going to keep acting as mommies and daddies for everybody.

Never be scared of listening to your opposing party's views. If you feel you are right then counter them with True Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib and let Sikhs in general decide for themselves. Arguing in public and over radios and TV channels simply presents the Sikh community in a negative manner to general public worldwide.

I don't know if discussion ever killed anybody. Arguing certainly has.

News has been filtering out of some similar Canadian seminars where all guys supporting Dasam Granth had to face embarrasment by admitting to questioning public that none of them had actually read the Dasam Granth. Yet they continued supporting it.

So get some educated and learned guys who have actually read Dasam Granth to present opposition this time, if that is your intention.

Again my suggestion to you is to hold a civilized discussion behind closed doors with solid ground rules based on Bani of Guru Granth Sahib ji.