punjab5

So much negativity, then we think why are we not succeeding. I too may be a bit 'nervy' about this council, but we need to give it a chance. I do not support Mahatami Ghandi, indeed i think he betrayed the Sikhs, but there is one of his quotes that is used a lot by Westerners, that i think is relevant here:

''You must be the change you want to see in the world''

So get involved.

From what i saw on the Sikh Channel and Sangat TV over the weekend, we do seem to have some Sikh professional involved.

Youth got involved in Leeds Chapeltown Gurdwara when they were having meat and alcohol parties there, as they did with Guru Nanak Gurdwara Bradford. The party halls there have now stopped. Singh Sabha Hitchin is also run by a committee with a majority born in the UK. Gurdwara Sukh Sagar, BC in Canada is another example. There may be other examples but these are the ones I know. There aren't many Gurdwaras like this but, despite the difficulties, it is time the next generation got involved with Gurdwara management.

Thanks

Well that defeatist attitude won't help. If youth want to see change, they need to engage at a local level, win the confidence of the Sangat and then kick the masands out! There's numerous examples where this has happened.

Can you give me some examples of this happening in the UK RECENTLY.

just as I was quick to condemn, I have to also say that i commend the Edinburgh lot and also the sevadars who all made this possible. Fantastic news, just really amazing. LEts see what Grays does in the next week, if they will be as brave as these guys and follow the lead. The pressure's on now!

Excellent news, well done to all concerned.

The way I see it, the Satkaar campaign is clearly being co-ordinanted the UK Sangat! If you want a name of the leader of the Satkaar campaign then it's Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. You can get any better transparency than that!

In that case anybody could set up a campaign and say that, in fact the reality is a lot do say that. Leadership is about being up front and showing a commitment not hiding behind a web site or mobile number. The Guru granth sahib provides spirtual and moral guidance, which needs to be implemented by the 'Khalsa' and Gurusikhs'.

Satkaar Sevadaars ??

I do think that the Satkaar committee are doing an excellent job, but for the sake of transperancy, that is lacking with the elder generation and one the youth question, could we plaese have the names of those that are leading this campaign from Satkaar ?

How utterly disrespectful, they gave their lives for the cause which they may not have fully known about but they gave their livelehood. And all you can do is give you utter rubbish of an opinion on these forums with complete disrespect for SAINT SOLDIERS OF THE BOTH WORLD WARS.

I think its right to reflect on the role of the British Empire and its oppresion. In fact the reality is that what put 'Great' into Britain was the ravaging of the natural resources and raw materials of the Indian subcontinent, that were used to develop products in Britain, thus driving the economy and employment and then sell them back to the people of the sub-continent at a huge profit. So it was this and the working sweat of our fore-fathers that made this country powerful, so we do own it or are a part of it.

In terms of WW1 & WW2, irrespective of who the Sikh were fighting with, the important point is that they were fighting for humanity against oppression and tyranny of the Naziz, exactly what the Gurus taught us. So lets show some respect for them.

Sikh leaders creating uncomfortable situation over Obama visit: Dal Khalsa

Punjab Newsline Network

Tuesday, 26 October 2010

By Jagmohan Singh AMRITSAR: A radical Sikh Organisation the Dal Khalsa today asked the Sikh leadership of all shades not to "jump to any conclusion" on the forthcoming visit of US president Barack Obama to Golden Temple, Amritsar.

Taking exception over the contradictory statements of Sikh religio-political leaders, the party spokesperson Kanwar Pal Singh said let the US president to decide on his own whether he wishes to pay obeisance at Darbar Sahib. He took jibe at Akali leaders for overreacting on the issue. His visit to Golden Temple should not 'look to be a forced one', he said.

Undoubtedly, the Sikh Nation would welcome the US president in case he visits Darbar Sahib. However, in case the White House organizers for whatever reasons decide otherwise the Sikhs should not feel regret, he said.

By issuing baseless statements on the matter certain Sikh leaders were creating uncomfortable situation for both the sides. According to US Embassy in New Delhi, the details of the President's visit were still being finalized, he claimed.

He expressed surprise over the timing and contents of the news report in which the NIA officials have claimed that David Coleman Headley detained in US prison has revealed that the massacre of Sikhs in March 2000 at village Chittisinghpora, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton's visit to India, was carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba.

Strongly refuting the so-called revelation, he said it's a planted story by the intelligence sleuths. It could be an effort to draw suspicion away from the state sponsored mercenaries, who may well be planning another similar attack during President Barack Obama's impending visit, he observed. "Look at the timing of the leak of the story, clearly reflecting the hidden design of the state's security establishment", said Dal Khalsa leader.

Sharing the apprehension expressed by stalwart Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Geelani at press conference in Srinagar, he alleged "we fear that the hit squads of the Indian intelligence agencies can do anything (similar) as they did in Chattisingpora in March 2000".

Interesting in that the Dal Khalsa, are doing exactly what is in the title of their press-release. So in-mature of them to highlight Chattisinpora incident, which will or could be used as an excuse for Oboma not visiting.

It has become apparent that some specific members of the Grays Gurdwara Committee are spreading malicious rumours within their local congregation that they [the Committee] were threatened with kirpans and a that large number of thugs were hired to intimidate the local Grays "Sikh" community. From the transparency of the media, it can clearly be seen that this is a clever ploy by certain members of the Committee to portray themselves as victims within their local congregation and hence defend the existence of the Party Hall.

If there is any doubt on the outstanding conduct of the UK Sangat who turned up to prevent the beadbi at Grays, please contact D.C. Jerry Gay of Grays Police Station on 0300 333 4444 ext 70439.

Excellent work by all those that supported. Just sharing with you, what was said by an elder:

''After June 84, there were a number of Gurdwara Committees that supported the Indian Government (congressi type) and were also not managing Gurdwara's with Gurmat principles. At that time the know banned ISYF, got rid of these committee walas and installed Amritdhari Gursikhs from the local community to manage the Gurdwaras. This was done by Force. The youth today can only campaign and protest. They should have got rid of the Committee and installed a new one, they can still do so.

It is a shame that the Youth today, have not been able to captilise on the achievments of the ISYF, as they did there bit, but there was no sustainability, in that the Youth did not get involved within the Gurdwara systems and thus the vacum has been filled by anti-Gurmat people. However it is not still too late.

Again well done to all.

Gill10/Satgur7/Grays Committee,

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Many thanks for making contact on this forum.

Just to clarify a point.

It is NOT a "protest" (as you have termed) taking place on Saturday 16 October 2010, it is an "assembly" of Sikhs who will pay reverence to the holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj at Grays Gurdwara as well as hold a courteous dialogue with the members of the Grays Gurdwara regarding the social issues of alcohol abuse, teachings of the Sikh Gurus and Sri Akal Takht Maryada.

Members of Grays Gurdwara have been made aware of this.

It is very easy to criticise people and Organisations that have put themselves forward to lead the Panth. However even they may not have the skills, time, experience etc to take on all issues. Leadership is earned through actions and respect. Time and time again we have people especially youths say that there needs to be a change in Leadership. How can this happen, not by using a common e-mail or just having a contact number, some may say this is true seva, to avoid 'huma', but others could say these people are to afraid to put themselves forward.

This is a test for new leadership. Those that are part of Satkar Committee, or leading it, need to come forward and lead this campaign, by galvanising and getting people on-borad to take this issue seriously. they need to lead, by organising a meeting, with invites to all existing leadership, with an agenda and straetgy for this campaign. It will be through their actions that others will follow. So DO NOT RELY ON OTHER ORGANISATIONS OR LEADERS TO TAKE THE LEAD, IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS THEN LEAD YOURSELVES, USING YOUR PERSONALITIES THROUGH SIKHI.

''A lot of mahapurshes are saying there are bad times ahead.''

So what are they doing and also telling you what to do to tackle the bad times ahead and do not say just sit tight and do 'namm japp'.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Please find below a scanned version of the letter (2 Pages) sent to the committee of Grays Gurdwara (Sikh Temple) along with copies of the Akal Takht Hukumnama of 1998 and Sandesh of 2006.

Unfortunatley this letter is not valid and the Committee can ignore it, as there is no address for the Satkar Committee ( an e-mail address is not really valid, without an postal address) and there is no offical Signature at the bottom of the letter.

If this letter can be re-sent with the above missing details and also state that there are members of the Satkar Committee, who also reside in the Grays area and attend the Gurdwara, this would put the Gray's committee in a dilemma, if there is any breach of 'peace'. Also suggest that a copy of this letter is sent to the Charity Commission.

Sikh media needs to show they are Panthic, as do all those old boys that sit in the Sikh Channel studios on a Sunday evening asking for money and for youth engagement. Time to show that you can walk the walk.

I am suprised that nobody has yet looked at the constitution and approached the Charity Commission. This needs to be done by a local Sikh.

The protest etc is a short term solution, longer term is as above. We live in a liberal democracy, where there is freedom of speech, the right to a private life (function) etc. However there are also Laws in place, to ensure that these rights do not enfringe on other rights and freedoms and also have an negative impact on society.

If we look at the the teachings of Sikhi, why do we always focus on Caste, Guru ji says 'Manas ki jatt sab eko pachan' This relates to all of humanity as one, so why do we then differentiate between nationalities, cultures etc.

To me this quote is about treating all with respect, regardless of their background/identity.

We need to try and seperate some aspects of culture from religion. If we focus on religion, then in reality there is not much discrimination on so called caste. Anyone can go to any Gurdwara and pay their respects to Guru Granth Sahib as well as partake in Sangat and listen to Kirtan, bani etc. When taking Amrit, you are not asked about your identity, i.e. so called caste', i could go on.

So the concept of caste has been eradicted in terms of religion. Even if you go to a so called 'Ramghari' Gurdwara. no body stops you from partcipating in the Sangat and listening to bani.

'Caste' is a western concept that was used by the British to divide the people of India. It is cultural and as mentioned in an earlier post, Jats are a tribe and so what is wrong with anyone identifying themselves with their ancestoral identity. As long their main identity is as a Sikh first. What Sikhi teaches is that all are equal there is no hiearchy, it does not say that you may deny your history from a cultural view, as long as you treat all other Humans with respect.

They were Sikh TV camera men lol.

Actually the team from Sikh Channel, also had Dasatar valee Sikhs as well.

Sikh chnl should nt shutdwn,if the ex ISYF lot were there why did they not talk then?Why did no one get up and put things right?Instead we sit there watch then tell the world afterwards,the oldmen probably liked the gori that's why they probaby didn't do nothing

I was also at the Conference. From what i saw, someone did tell the Sikh Channel crew, as the Girl was no longer involved with the Camera and may have also left. Probably after about 12ish, there was a Dastar wearing Sikhg, manning the fron Camera.

Once again, please go and speak directly with Baba Baljit Singh and iron out your concerns. He is in the UK for 10 days and I know from experience Baba Ji will sit with you for hours if the discussion is about the panth.

Your issue on credibility is subjective and you will be in a better position to make an objective opinion after you have had a direct discussion with Baba Baljit Singh. Don't rely on second hand judgements.

Yes, i could that personally. But what about the Sikh Sangat, especially those belonging to the Gurdwara, which was mentioned in the News of the World, that was dis-credited by the article, in which Baba Ji was named as agreeng to take money in order to facilitate an person coming to the UK on false pretences.

Even if the article/story was true, we all make mistakes and slip up, we just need to 'own up' aplogise and move on.

Baba ji, is doing some great parchar. However he needs to maintain his credibility and that is through being transparent, like Baba Ranjit Singh ji.

So he needs to clarify, why he has not spoken up against Prof Darshan Singh. I remember a number of years ago, a reporter from the News of the World (same one that has been involved in exposing the Pakastani Cricket players and match fixing), in an undercover role approached Baba Baljit Singh about 'human traficking/illegal immigration', i.e. bringing someone from India, with his jatha for money. The report in the paper was a total embarrasemnt for the Sikh Community. Baba ji, did not complain to the Press complaints commission nor did they deny and clarify in the Punjabi media. I think it was related to a Gurdwara in the Midlands, where the undercover reporter approcahed Baba ji.

Once he clarifies, his credibility will be restored. Once again can i re-iterate that he is doing some great parchar.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!

Whats the sangats view on youngsters running the gurdwara committees???

because most gurdwareh uncles dont speak english, and have to hire tour guides, when some schools want to visit...

and the uncles dont know what we want!

youngsters like camps, english-speaking lecturers etc.

whats your view on young commitee members? NO uncles.

WJKK WJKF

How many youths actually give up their time to get involved. To manage a Gurdwara is very hard. The main focus is 'parchar', that youths may get involved in. Parchar is to cater for all, young, old, educated etc. Thus english is not the only medium for this. Arranging akand paths, and other programmes involves day time attendance. Booking ragis, bookeeping, going to bank, paying the bills etc. Responding to enquires and all correspondance is not a job for Sunday's only.

Having to stay nights at the Gurdwara on a regular basis. Keeping all the Sangat - on your side, explaning when you cannot meet their requirements as they may not be in line with 'Gurmat'. Organising wedding ceremonies and trying to keep all those attending from doing beadbhi'.

Making sure not to isolate those that have not yet taken Amrit, convincing them through your actions of patience and PIARE.

Not that easy, most commited committee members spend at least 30+ hours, in administering and managing the Gurdwara on top of there normal jobs and looking after there families.

benti to all young sikhs, this is the 2nd most important event for you to attend in the Uk after 1984 remembrance prog.

the poster says the Sikh Community and the new Coalition Government, does this mean that Minister from the Coalition Government will be attending and that they support the campaign for a Sikh Homeland. It certainley reads that way?

Can someone please explain what the term ''96 Krori' means as l have no clue and would like to know.

Thanks

Then we wonder why we sometimes get labelled as 'Taliban Sikhs'

Any action taken has to be within the legal and Institutional framework of the UK. There are a number of 'watchdog' bodies organisations that have a responsibility for governing various activities, i.e. OFCOM etc. The one for registred charities is the CHARITY COMMISSION. A majority of Gurdwara's are registred charities with a written constitution and thus fall within the remit of this Commission. The role of the Commission is to ensure that the charity is being 'run' according to its constitution and the funds are not being mis-used.

If people are series about this issue, then suggest that in the first place, members of the particular Gurdwara, even 1 or 2, need to read the constitution first.

My understanding is that all Gurdwara's are registred as places of worship and all have their objectives as promting Sikhism. By having any Meat or Alchol on their premises they are undermining their charitable objective and being a place of worship. The Sikh reyat Maryda defines what can be a place of worship and what is not allowed inside a Gurdwara. Thus these Gurdwaras are in breach of their consitutions and should be reported to the Charities Commission. Being in breach, they would loose their charitable status and thus all the benefits that go with this, or stop this practise.

'Nihangs were the Warrior Sikhs'.

My understanding is that all Khalsa are 'Saint Soldiers', so all are warriors, when the need arises.

''The Nihangs or Akalis were the elite of the Khalsa who held all royal privileges in the court of the Guru''

My understanding was that the Khalsa and Sikhs of the Guru were all equal, indeed the teachings of our Gurus is 'All human beings are equal'' - manas ki jat sab eko pachano''

So why are Nihangs the elite or the chosen ones -contradiction.