SinghWarrior

Elders and leaders of jathebandia, sometimes make deals and compromises because sometimes that is what is required in politics. When dealing with sensitive matters, they must be approached carefully and strategically, knowing when to push up the intensity and when to back off. The elders and leaders sometimes make deals and compromises for the greater good and NOT to preserve their own seat. Most have done sewa all of their lives with full time jobs and families and spending money from their own pocket, which youth seem very reluctant to do these days but place a huge list of demands on everybody else apart from themselves.

Youth need to stop moaning and whining and placing huge demands on the leaders. I think that the leaders will be quite receptive if youth want to get involved provided they are calm and reasoned and behave like human beings rather than some kind of hooligan mob. Stop creating a wedge between yourselves and the elders through your own arrogance and hot-headedness.

So I know that as a simple pindu who is more accustomed to sitting on the sidelines, making stupid jokes, criticising and leg pulling you probably cant help yourself. However, why dont you just reflect on yourself a little bit and think about what impact your negative, critical attitude has on Panthic development and if it actually helps progress in any way?

You never answered my question about your allegations on Daduwaal wale. Please elaborate/provide evidence on your allegations.that he is a "womansing and human trafficking Baba".

You accuse the youth of arrogance and hot-headedness, when your condescending posts display this exact approach. This is not limited to the Vaisakhi event, but a much wider issue: youth will continually be critical when they see their leaders selling out on Sikhi-principles for a "political" game. This is the whole problem - the leaders are engaging in political games with each other to get one over the other. From the outside, it all appears as displays of ego.

Also, if you lot project yourself as our leaders, the Sangat has every right to place demands on you. Don't complain when you can't handle criticism. The fact that you claim you are willing to work with the youth is a bit of a joke. How many Sikh, educated professionals are there under the age of 35/40 in SCUK? Fine - more youth should be willing to be pro-actively involved, but are the elders genuinely trying to blood the next generation? Course not. It's more about them staying at the forefront for as long as possible.

Another point - it's a function of the "political" games that are played amongst leaders promoting themselves/their organisations that is the EXACT reason why youth can't trust the elders to deal with the Panthic agenda with a straight bat. They are forever fearful of being used as a pawn in the ego-game of the leaders.

Earlier you were dictating to the Uk leaders that they must give money to the womansing and human trafficking Baba Daduwal from India lol. First it was Daduwal, and now it is Rajoana. The total lack of thought and intellect is quite scary. No wonder the 'moderate' Sikh majority think that you lot are all nutters and no wonder the elders think you are a liability and dont want to engage with such an unstable and volatile group of people.

Support the UK Sikh leaders and stop trying to pull them down. They were dealing with Panthic issues before you even entered your mother's womb. You should have some respect for their experience and intellect. Trying to engage independently in hot-headed youth led projects is no good for the Panth!

I've personally never advocated leadership of Daduwaal Wale. However, you make grave personal allegations against him. Care to offer any solid evidence, or is this further mud-slinging in this thread?

Rajoana speaks the truth. The truth causes revolutions. This is what our Gurus did - Aad Sach Jugaad Sach, Hae Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

A lot of "nutters" as you term them see Sikh leadership of constantly selling out on Sikhi asools, most often for preservation of their individual Kursis. This is why youth are disheartened. It's easy for the elders to tarnish the youth as hot-heads, but the truth is that many making the complaints have much intellectual capacity and the "nutters" are also are very active in Sevaa. All this will surprise you no doubt. But the nutters don't like putting themselves on a pedestal for a personal Kursi.

What it seems SCUK has degenerated into is another status quo organisation that preserves the existing things that are wrong. What differentiates "hot-head nutters" is that they are happy to publicly disagree with the elders and will continue to be vocal in making their points. Elders don't like this as it challenges their authority. Elders need to realise that every "hot-head nutter" does not have anything personally against the elders, but they DEFINITELY disagree with the approach elders take on certain issues. Part of this approach is doing back-room deals with others, instead of making oneself openly accountable in front of the Sangat.

Our leaders tip-toe around British politicians. That's all it is. No-one's willing to make a stand for Sikhi asools. That's why Bhai Rajoana is such an inspiration for ordinary Sikhs.

Panth First, Self-Interest Second. These are the type of leaders we need.

This is an absolute heartache for Panthic-minded Gursikhs. Why are our Sikh "leaders" so willing to readily compromise on Sikhi principles, just so that they get to hob-nob with the Prime Minister? Sikh Council UK members are also there - surely they must be held to account?

As shown by SFUK, lobbying of MPs really does work. Good work by SFUK - keep it up!

Sikh Channel turned up today when they realised it was a massive success! Both channels need to work with the Panth's interest at heart rather than petty squabbles over who is affiliated with who. Agree that they need to move on from the Dastar Day Fiasco.

The Sangat showed yet again today its amazing presence. Brought Aldwych area to a massive standstill.

I was talking about the Dr Ambedkar situation. Sikhs need to be humble and, whilst we may not actively seek to convert people, if they are coming to Guru's dwara (door), we should be there for them with open arms. We need to drop our egos, as per Guru Ji's Hukam, and then our jeevans will have much more influence on the world.

The Gurdwara system is completely failing in Parchaar in terms of its output of Sikhs. Most young Sikhs join with Guru Ji either through the internet or camps such as Sikhi Camp or Khalsa Camp. The Ravidassias like Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message, but are put off by the hypocrisy of "Sikhs" allegedly living the message. We, as a community, need to put these things right.

I can see the arguments of why a "Sikh" channel shouldn't cover them, but we, the Sikh Nation, made a historic mistake in the early '50s by pushing away all the "dalits" from the UP and Rajasthan areas who were willing to align to Sikhi, as in theory Sikhi gives them equal status. The population of UP alone is 200 million - 20% of India's population. A potentially massive number of Sikhs.

However, our leaders at the time, rather than inspiring and bringing them into the fold of Sikhi, we pushed them away because their cultural practice was slightly different from the prevailing Panjabi caste mentality. The Ravidassias are on our doorstep in Panjab, and again they have been historically discriminated against, contrary to the teachings of our Gurus. Strategically, we are weakening the acceptance of Sikhs amongst general Indians, meaning we have even less allies there.

The minority Ravidassias are beginning to openly question Kesh, Amrit and Rehat as a result of discrimination from mainstream Sikhs. If we carry on the way we are, nearly all "chamaars" will reject practising Sikhs as hypocrites and go their own way. However, there are many "chamaars" that are Amritdhari. You can see some of them with their Kesh and Kirpaans on the Sangat TV footage.

RSS is fully behind the proliferation of separate Deras and sects in Panjab (including Noormehlia, Jhoota Sauda, Ravidassia religion, Bhaniarawala). If we choose to be blinkered and ignore it, that's up to our own conscience.

Yes integration is a good thing however there is a distinction between mainstream Sikhs and Ravidassia Sikhs.

Sangat TV have advertised all programmes as relating to "Guru Ravidass" and not "Bhagat Ravidass". There is a difference in beliefs and you need to be one way or the other. The jakara that's been on these channels from the "Guru Ravidass Gurdwara's "is noticeablly different "Bole So Nibhai, Siri Guru Ravidass Ki Jai".

The fact of the matter is how can you integrate when you have different beliefs?

Either you believe in Bhagat Ravidass as a "Guru" or you don't. In mainstream Sikhi we don't.

Agree that we are different. But they (the majority, excluding the minority who are trying to create a Ravidassia religion under RSS instruction/inspiration) still see themselves as Sikhs. Their Jakara is different but they still matha tek to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They call Bhagat Ravidas Ji, Guru Ravidas Ji. Even amongst "mainstream", Sikhs there are differences.

If we follow your logic, AKJ, Damdami Taksaal, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib, Nihang Singhs have differences between them. Should we, in our own little group, reject these other groups as "not Sikhs" because, as you say, "The fact of the matter is how can you integrate when you have different beliefs?"

Practices of Ravidassia community may seem weird to "mainstream" Sikhs, but Ravidassia community has been heavily ostracised and treated as "outcastes" by mainstream Sikhs in previous generations. Hence, their desire to separate and build their own religion. This has been promoted by RSS to weaken Sikhs. Actually, what the elders and Sangat TV are doing is good. We need to build community relations, show them that they are our brothers and sisters, and re-integrate them into the mainstream Sikh fold. It will take time, but we don't want to be in a position where, due to caste differences pursued by Punjabis in India and, to some extent, in UK in elder generations, we break these people off from Sikhi completely.

People won't like this post. I'll probably be vilified, but we need to take a long-term view and not fall for the tricks the Panth Dushts are trying to inflict on us.

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/9553087.Charlton_man_guilty_of_Gagandip_Singh_Blackheath_boot_murder/

Charlton man guilty of Gagandip Singh Blackheath boot murder

2:22pm Friday 24th February 2012 in News By Nina Massey

A 20-YEAR-OLD has been found guilty of killing a Bexleyheath television executive whose body was found in the boot of a burning car.

Gagandip Singh, aged 21, of Langdale Crescent, Bexleyheath, died on February 26 last year.

His body was found in the boot of a blue Mercedes C-class in Angerstein Lane, Blackheath, at around 2am.

At the Old Bailey today screams from the public gallery greeted the verdict as 20-year-old Harinder Shoker (also known as Ravi) of Charlton Park Lane, Charlton, was found guilty of murder in a majority verdict.

Darren Peters, of Shooters Hill Road, Blackheath, aged 20, was found guilty of manslaughter.

Mundill Mahil, aged 20, of Regent Guest House, Maidstone Road, Chatham was cleared of murder but found guilty of GBH with intent. She was left in tears by the verdict.

During the trial the court heard that in August 2010, Mr Singh had attempted to rape Mahil, and after this incident, the once close friends fell out.

It was alleged that Mahil lured Mr Singh to her student house in Brighton where Peters and Shoker lay in wait to attack him.

After beating him up he was put in the boot of the car and driven to Blackheath where the car was set alight.

Although Mr Singh had suffered severe head injuries, a post mortem gave the cause of death as inhalation of fire fumes.

Jurors had deliberated for 40 hours in the case.

This is extremely positive news. It goes to show when Sangat unites and takes PRE-EMPTIVE steps to stop Beadbi, corrupt committee members have no choice. Much better that it was nipped in the bud now, than Sangat having to raise their voice when the hall had taken bookings for parties, and disrupting peoples' personal functions.

It's not OK for a Hindu to marry a Sikh. A Sikh MUST marry a Sikh.

No official raensbaee from AKJ this year, I believe.

The bani of the second bhai Gurdas (Singh) tells us about khande ki pahul. Other than that Guru Granth Sahib Ji Di bani contains references to deekhiya, recieving gurmantar, becoming a Sikh etc. the particular form may not be written but there is clear mention of the concept of becoming Guru vala. If lecture katha is not in Sri Gurbani, then clearly we can receive param gat without it.

If you choose to accept utterances of Bhai Gurdas Jee (the second one), why reject other utterances of respected Gursikhs of history which reference the Saakhiaan of Guru Ji's times (as per AK47's posts)? Bhai Gurdas Jee (the first one) is known to have done Kathaa to Sangat. From these Kathaas, he wrote his Vaaran, of which we now do Keertan.

Once again, I have nothing to say until a Gurbani tuk can be provided which mentions katha with the meaning of a lecture by an individual.

This is the logic that Kaala-Afghaani's use. Where in Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it say one should take Khande-Batte Di Pahul? Our historical traditions tell us that Khande-Batte Di Pahul is the Guru's instruction. Our historical traditions (see the posts of AK-47 above for referenced Sakhiaan from Sikh history) also tell us of katha being done "with the meaning of a lecture by an individual", as you term it.

At different stages of your Sikhi path you will get anand from different things. Sometimes seva, sometimes more kirtan, sometimes reading bani, listening to bani, listening to katha, doing jooreh di seva etc. Aim is to join mind with vaheguru and do simram constantly whilst doing any of the above.

Whole argument is childish. It's like equivalent to asking which of your parents do you love more? love both, listen to both kirtan and katha. End of.

Well said.

Just used it. Looks good. :respect: :respect: :respect:

New Years Eve I believe, at Tividale Gurdwara - Dasam Granth Bhog.

Don't tie a Patka too tight. I used to do this when I was younger. This reduced blood circulation to my eyes, meaning I eventually had to start wearing glasses.

Great programme (from the bits I saw). Amrik Singh's dedication to the cause is admirable, and the way he and Dabinderjit Singh explained the change in focus of SFUK to one working for the longer-term benefit of Sikhs through lobbying and building relationships with politicians, is important for its strategic foresight. We need to continue to work to build the lobby stronger and influencing policy in its formative stages.

Important issue raised, and well done to Sikh Channel for highlighting this shocking situation which many were not aware of.

I do agree with the above poster though, that Dr Jugbir did seem a bit disrespectful to those out on the street and was trying to sensationalise the issue. Whilst covering an important issue, he should tone down the "tabloid" nature of the reporting. One particular thing I disliked was the way he sought to find certain Gurdwaras to blame. It is not the Gurdwaras' fault that they are in this situation, it is the combination of them being illegals (hence can't claim benefits/social security) and there being economic troubles (and hence no job).

Gurdwaras can do more, and I'm sure they will as a result of this coverage, BUT we have a tendancy to make issues such as this a blame game, when the reality is that they are many issues facing the Panth. WE ALL need to STEP-UP to tackle them, rather than always looking to point the finger at Gurdwara committees.

Another example of Badal's contempt for justice and propensity for corruption: two years ago yesterday, Darshan Singh gave shaheedi in the "Ludhiana Kaand". Mr "Panth Rattan" Badal instigated the situation by allowing Noormehlia to have a diwan in Ludhiana, even though Mr "Panth Rattan" Badal knew Sikhs would be deeply offended by this, as Noormehlia allowed Saroops of Guru Ji to be burned.

Mr "Panth Rattan" Badal covered up the situation by exonerating those that fired the shots (including a sitting BJP MLA and high level police officers) on innocent and unarmed crowds of Sikhs. Mr "Panth Rattan" Badal then bought the silence of the family of the shaheed Singh by offering them money (from SGPC funds - 500,000 rupees it was reported at the time) and jobs in the very police units that illegally and mercilessly killed their father, Darshan Singh.

It has been reported by Gursikhs keeping contact, that the other Gursikh naujawaan who were injured by bullets from police firing on that day, and later shown in hospitals, have been picked up by the police since, and are routinely being harassed and tortured. This is to intimidate them so that they do not/can not come forward to bring their plight to the wider world.

Badal Senior is complicit in protecting human rights abusers. His govt has been protecting Sumedh Saini, a police officer, from CBI investigations/charges for massive human rights abuses post '84. What does Badal get in return from Sumedh Saini? Sainib being a senior police officer, imprisons and tortures Badal's political opponents.

As per mother of Prof Devinderpal Singh Bhullar, she said that she doesn't want Badal doing Ardas for clemency, because Saini is the one who murdered her husband and responsible for false cases against Prof Bhullar. Yet, Badal has effectively stayed prosecution against Saini in the Punjab courts, despite overwhelming evidence against Saini.

This is but one example. There must be countless others.

I like your post S1NGH bhaji (and also the quote you make). Sikhs need to be activists in all spheres of life. Khalsa, in promoting a sant-sipahi way of life, promotes justice, honesty and integrity. Whether this be in UK, Canada, USA or India. Khalsa are revolutionaries. However, most "religious" Sikhs are too apathetic today to voice against injustice. We need to change this and engage with the world. But before doing this, we really need to get our house (our institutions) in order first!