SinghWarrior

Dr Bhogal was trying to imply that GurSikhs standing up against this Beadbi are extremists. He gave the example of your username being "MentalSingh" to suggest that we are all completely unreasonable, and perhaps, even mental - LOL!!!

Classic committee trick of trying to deflect attention away from the real issue of concern.

face it that Ramgarhia Sikh Temple is a prestigeous Gurdwara

Where's the prestige in allowing meat and alcohol to be served at the Gurdwara?

Completely agree with GurSa and MentalSingh's posts.

"MentalSingh" - you seem to have struck a nerve of Pyara Singh Bhogal. He went out of his way to mention you in Panth Time. :rolleyes:

SikhPaji - I wouldn't be surprised if you're a committee member of Ramgarhia Sikh Temple, Birmingham. Rather than trying to deflect the issue and making into a caste one, just address the real issue that is the promotion of meat, alcohol and tobacco in a hall linked to the Gurdwara and under the name of Baba Jassa Singh Ramgarhia. Just stop the meat, alcohol, parties and tobacco, and then the Sangat will be off your case!!!

Now that we know the Ramgarhia Committee reads SikhSangat, they should think about all the Paap they are committing by allowing these seriously anti-Sikh activities to go on in the Gurdwara. They will have to pay for this mistake when the JamDoot come to get them. However, if they realise their mistake, close down the parties in the hall, our forever forgiving Guru will no doubt forgive them too.

All Pardaans should ideally be Amritdhaari and in full Sikhi Saroop, since they should be role models. However, not everything is black and white. At Grays Gurdwara, you had a mona president completely against the party hall and telling the locals not to have the party hall. On the other hand, you had "Amritdharis" who were pushing for the party hall. In this case, I prefer the mona as president, who at least stands for sikhi principles, despite acknowledging his own personal shortcomings.

An excellent show - Akal Takht Jathedaar Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji's live call in made it completely clear that meat and alcohol on Gurdwara property is completely forbidden in Sikhi/gurmat maryada. I was extremely disappointed to see Dr Bhogal try to make the allegation that the Sangat is targeting the "Ramgarhia" community. As Navreet Singh said, this is about beadbi, not caste.

It's an internal issue, but the Press are looking for stories/hysteria. Rather than allowing the media to brand GurSikhs working for Satkaar of Guru Jee as extremists (as has happened in the past), given that they will be running the story anyways, it's better for us to engage with the media, give our side of the story and explain the sacrilege that is taking place (which Navreet Singh and Popsy did very well) --> and then leverage off this to target the real culprits --> the Committees that are disrespecting Maryada and doing Beadbi.

That Manjit Cheema from Sunderland was completely confused. He started off from a position of trying to justify the existence of the hall, and then, after getting completely ripped to shreds by Nihal, ended up seeming to admit that the hall will be closed down at some point (but still saying it was legitimate!).

The sooner that the Sunderland "Sikh" Association closes down the party hall, the better. I'm sure that otherwise they'll be next in line for the Satkaar campaign.

Did they interview anyone from a Gurdwara with party halls, such as Ramgarhia Graham Street, Birmingham?

Sorry, but I have one thing to say. If it carries on like this, the Sikh Council UK is bound for failure. Reason is simple. If, as individuals, jathebandis or organisations who claim allegiance to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj and Akal Takht, we cannot take a stand openly to state that we condemn alcohol and meat on Guru Ji's premises, what kind of individuals, jathebandis or organisations are we? How can we expect that Guru Ji will do His Kirpaa and bless us with Chardikala?

The statements above by Jagtar Singh (aka Sikh Federation UK) and the Sikh Council UK on their website show dithering to the max on this issue. Rather than trying to build grand structures to claim legitimacy, true legitimacy (to Guru Ji and His Sangat) will come from Gurmat-oriented actions, and taking stands on (politically difficult) issues.

Youth got involved in Leeds Chapeltown Gurdwara when they were having meat and alcohol parties there, as they did with Guru Nanak Gurdwara Bradford. The party halls there have now stopped. Singh Sabha Hitchin is also run by a committee with a majority born in the UK. Gurdwara Sukh Sagar, BC in Canada is another example. There may be other examples but these are the ones I know. There aren't many Gurdwaras like this but, despite the difficulties, it is time the next generation got involved with Gurdwara management.

Well that defeatist attitude won't help. If youth want to see change, they need to engage at a local level, win the confidence of the Sangat and then kick the masands out! There's numerous examples where this has happened.

If the so-called "Ramgarhias" have made it a caste issue, it doesn't mean that we have to make it one. Guru Granth Sahib Ji belongs to Khalsa Panth, and it is the Panth's duty to ensure that no Beadbi occurs. There are "Ramgarhias" who are against the party halls in "Ramgarhia" Gurdwaras - they're the silent majority. The Panth has to unite, regardless of man-made caste, to defeat the corrupt leaders and committees.

REPEAT: It's not a caste issue at all. The leaders/committees are trying to make it a caste issue to defend their anti-Gurmat practices. Let's stay united and not fall into their trap!!!

The latest charity commission report for 2008 shows that the Ramgarhia Gurdwara committee made almost £40,000 from the party hall, sadly named in the name of Sikh Panthic hero Sardar Jassa Singh Ji Khalsa (see bottom of page 10 on link). This is a 33% increase on the previous year.

The bottom of page 14 of the charity commission report shows that they have set aside a "building fund" to develop a new Community Centre, which will include an even bigger wedding hall.

Link: http://www.charity-c...0080405_e_c.pdf

Gurdwara's are not a business. They are a Dharmsala for spreading Guru's Sikhi. Should the Sangat's money which is given in Guru's Golak be used to fund party hall, meat, alcohol and tobacco activities, or should Guru's Golak be used for Sikhi Parchaar, helping Shaheed families, dharmi faujis and the unfortunate in the world?

It's CLEARLY time to reclaim OUR Gurdwaras from the corrupt Gurdwara committees.

Completely agree with the above sentiments. You get the leadership of Graham Street Gurdwara, Birmingham, all acting like "big-cheese" on Sikh Channel, when they openly and unashamedly allow alcohol and meat on their Gurdwara premises. I hope this Sikh Council UK - the so-called "Parliament of Sikhs" - is strong enough to stand up for Sikhi principles and spirit, even if this makes it unpopular amongst a few perceived powerful people.

:waheguru:

Excellent result for the Sangat! Just goes to show what the Panth - when united - can achieve. Another success in the list of Gurdwaras to be reformed. Many more to go.

General Secretary Gurcharan Bahra had absolutely no hesitation in offering dates for booking parties earlier this evening. Meat and alcohol on Gurdwara premises? No problem. He said that there were loads of other issues for the Panth to resolve first, so the Gurdwara hall hosting parties was OK!!! Anyone wanting to pay their 200 pound non-refundable booking fee for a party should make their cheque payable to "Ramgarhia Sikh Temple".

If anyone wants to confirm/get evidence, please call direct at the times mentioned above. They tell you all this unashamedly.

Tikka - this is not a caste issue. Let's not allow caste to become an issue amongst Gursikhs. Question is this: does the Gurdwara follow Guru's Maryada and Akal Takht Sahib's Sandesh regarding meat and alcohol? If not, it should not claim to be a Gurdwara, Guru Sahib's saroops should be taken away and Nishan Sahib should be taken down - SIMPLE!!!

Spoke to the Pardaan, first he tried to deny it happened, then he admitted it happened, then he tried to justify it by saying that goat sacrifice happens at Hazoor Sahib, then he said they will close it down once they buy a new site (with Sangat money) away from the Gurdwara, then he said Sikh maryada allows meat, then he said who gave you my number, then he said the hall will continue being used, then he said he abides by Akal Takht Sahib and is a Sikh. He changed his position multiple times in the space of a 10 minute call.

What I heard is that the committee will shortly sign the letter providing the assurances that the UK Sangat wants. Let's hope that they follow through on this tomorrow in their meeting.

On another note, Singhs are being told the main person in Grays in favour of the party hall is ex-president of the gurdwara BALDEV SINGH GILL - he is apparently being two-faced with the UK Sangat and the people locally. If this is his position, such hypocrites need to be exposed if they don't admit their mistakes and follow Gurmat Maryada.

Can US and Canadian Sangat please give these SGPC members when they arrive a real piece of how the Sangat feels? The Chela Ram Beadbi is being swept under the carpet by SGPC. Rather than these people causing more problems globally, they need to sort things out locally in India first.

Apparently there's a few people in the committee that are causing issues. However, local Sangat shouldn't be held hostage to them. Time for the President, committee collectively, and the trustees to step up and and prove that they abide Akal Takht. 16 November is fast approaching, and the UK Sangat may then decide to take more drastic action!

Guru did kirpa today - party didn't go ahead and it went completely peacefully. Sevadaars said they would release a full statement ASAP with all details of what happened.

IMPORTANCE OF MAINTAINING DISCIPLINE TOMORROW - BY JAGJIT SINGH WAKEFIELD

Vaheguru ji ke khalsa Vaheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, occasionally Gursikhs have to come together to do a morcha in front of some anti-Gurmat activity. However sometimes I have seen in the past, that those committing anti-Gurmat activities can be so provocative that they go to some amazing lengths to rouse up the Gursikhs. The aim behind this is often to get a re-action which can be blown up to show the Gursikhs are just as badly behaved as them.

This is why Gursikhs need to learn from Guru ji that we should not lose our virtues, just because others provoke you, or situations can get tense. For a Gursikh, his discipline should be paramount and as a result he never loses his/her virtues.

The most amazing example of this is from Guru ji himself, when Sahib Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji sat on the hot plate, everyone around him lost their virtues and were in engulfed in the relative passions and anger, but Guru ji was amazing, and not just that tense situation, but even the hot plate was unable to affect his Supreme mindset.

Looking back, the generation that did the most seva was the Marjeevaria Gursikhs who with Baba Kharak Singh and many other Gursikhs freed our Gurdwara sahibs. Never have we seen a sight when everyday 50-100 totally disciplined Gursikhs did ardas and went to their morchas with Naam and Bani in their hearts. They had a Sarbloh Spirit (Iron clad Spirit). They realised that their every action represents their father Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji, and despite so much torture and provocation, they never once failed to uphold his honour.

Below is an amazing account of such a Morcha from Gurmat bibek. So many in our generation can learn so much from these amazing souls in terms of discipline. If a Gursikh does not have discipline, then it is questionable if he/she is a Gursikh.

So if any Gursikh faces a situation where a morcha is required, please remember those amazing souls who never forgot who their father was, and as a result never lost discipline and ensured their morha was fateh, but with the dignity expected by their father. http://www.gurmatbibek.com/contents.php?id=82

How a British Officer admitted defeat from Sikhs<BR class=ecxwebkit-block-placeholder><P align=justify>Vaheguru jee ka Khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh !

One day, Sodhi Harbhajan Singh jee (writer of famous book Bhajan Bandagi Da Pratap) was standing in a shop in Jabalpur that an English couple walked in and said fateh to him loudly. Harbhajan Singh was surprised to hear fateh from the English couple. Sodhi Harbhajan Singh jee started talking to them and asked them how come they know so much about Sikhism. Upon this the English gentleman told him his story as follows:

""""I was a police captain in 1924 when the Akalis launched Bhai Pheru morcha in Lahore city of Punjab (now in Pakistan). I got special orders from the Inspector General of Police to crush the Sikhs. I told him that I could do so only if I was to be given the police party of my choice. At this he agreed and I hand picked the most ruthless and strong young men from backgrounds such as Lyalpuri Jaanglis and Jhelami Jaats. I took my police party to Gurdwara Bhai Pheru and surrounded the disputed place with wire and had my police party stationed there.

The first Jatha started marching from Amritsar and slowly reached Gurdwara Bhai Pheru after doing prachaar (preaching) in several villages on their way. On the day of the arrival of the Jatha at Gurdwara Bhai Pheru I asked my toughest Thanedaar (Police Officer) to get me the list of all the members of Jatha along with their father's name and home address. That afternoon I got surprised when I saw the list. All Jatha members had listed Guru Gobind Singh as their father. I got really mad when I saw the list and swore at the Thanedaar for failing to get even the name of their father.

The thanedaar replied that he tried his best but no one in the Jatha gave any other name for their father but Guru Gobind Singh. My wife who was sitting beside me mocked me by saying that if I can't even get their father's name how the hell am I going to crush them. At this I vowed that I will eat my breakfast the next day, only after getting their father's name from them.

Next day I chose 50 stern and strong-hearted policemen and asked them to pick 25 old and weak members of the Jatha. I then ordered that let two policemen hold one Sikh and use whatever means to make them spit out their father's name. I further said that whoever does it first would get a gold medal and special recognition from the government. Hearing my order, the policemen started beating the Jatha members savagely till they got unconscious. Then they would bring them back to senses and beat them again. But none of them told their worldly father's name. All they would say was Guru Gobind Singh and Vaheguru. When they failed to get any results I asked the police officers to remove their belts and get the hell out of there. By that time it was 10am and I was feeling really hungry.

I chose another 50 policemen and asked them to do the same thing. I asked them to use very severe measures to torture the Jatha members to break their resolve of not telling the name of their worldly father. I knew that if they admit defeat and spit out their father’s name, then they would also accept the defeat of their agitation. A lot was at stake. I put their hands upside down under the Charpai (indian beds) and made the police officers jump on the beds. The Sikhs were in great pain but they did not yield. I even made my policemen hammer nails in their buttocks but still we were unable to break their resolve.

By 6pm I was badly tired and was extremely hungry. I lost all my pride and ego and felt totally helpless in front of those non-violent lions. I picked up the phone and dialed to the IG of police and resigned. The next day I took train to Bombay and went to England. I wrote it down on the resignation letter that no one should mess with the Sikhs."""""

This story is very inspiring. Could someone shed more light on the cause of Gurdwara Sahib Bhai Pheru wala morcha ? I heard another similar story of a chardi kala wala Kharkoo who did not disclose his worldly father's name to the torturing police party; and named Siri Guru Gobind Singh as his father and Sri Anandpur Sahib as his village.

I believe that the Akalis of early twentieth century made a very proud addition to the glorious Sikh history by achieving so much non-violently.

Kulbir Singh

I heard Sikh Channel had agreed to actually play an advert on the protest in advance of it, though this doesn't appear to be happening. It's great that Sikh Channel has finally responded to the Sangat at this late stage (given that they were made aware of this issue 4 months ago!). An advert raising awareness today or even a scroll would be most appreciated!!!

We start off with Grays, as it is a new hall not yet started. BUT I can tell you that there is a conviction amongst youth to shut down all Gurdwara owned party halls. We need a grass roots movement to develop amongst Panth-Dardi GurSikhs to be effective in every town and city, and then to support one another on a national level. E.g., attending the protest. ONE STEP AT A TIME THOUGH!

It's encouraging that Sikh TV is taking a stand on difficult Panthic issues. It would be great if Sikh TV could also advertise this protest so that there is greater awareness amongst the wider Sangat of the issue.

It is the nature of a Panthic minded Gursikh to rise to greatness as greatness is expected of that Gursikh.

Agree completely. We all like to think we are associated with such and such Jathebandi, but if we really have faith and respect the GurSikhs that lead the Jathebandis, we should each try to follow their examples. It's time for people to realise their Panthic duty. We can't imitate the leaders (unless we have the jeevan), but we can take a small step by attending a protest to prevent gross beadbi.

Taksal - Sant Jarnail Singh Ji - nothing needs to be said here.

Taksal - Sant Sunder Singh Ji - was instrumental in organising the Jathas that gave Shaheedi for the Gurdwara reform movement.

Federation - Bhai Amrik Singh Ji - President of the Federation in 1984 gave Shaheedi.

AKJ - Bhai Randhir Singh Ji - stood up for Gurdwara Rakab Ganj Sahib when the British tried to annex its land.

AKJ - Bha Fauja Singh Ji - gave Shaheedi for the Panth in 1978 against Nakli Nirankari.

AKJ - Bhai Sukhdev Singh Ji Babbar - gave Shaheedi after fighting the tyranical Indian police force.

Nanaksar - Baba Nand Singh Ji - was instrumental in making the SGPC treat all Guru Ji's saroops with more respect in all Gurdwaras controlled by them.

All Mahapursh - acted to prevent Beadbi of Guru Ji's saroops when SGPC tried to change Mangals.