pedrorizzo

Iv noticed a trend in protests over recent years both in India and in the UK where Singhs have started carrying shastars to demonstrations and protests.

Im not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it is inspiring that Sikhs appear to have woken up and are demonstrating their anger. I suppose it can also be a useful form of intimidation and deterrent to people who may want to pick fights with Sikhs.

However, doesnt this visual display of aggression start to lose its impact and value after a while? ie dont people start to catch on that this all just for show and not really that dangerous after all? This image is cemented by footage of several instances where armed Sikhs shouting jaikaras are being chased off and/or beaten off by police.

I think we have to be careful not to overexpose our shastars and start pulling them out all the time, especially by people who 1. Dont have the guts to use them and 2. Dont know how to use them.

I think that maybe some self regulation is required, particularly in our own sphere of influence here in the UK. I was having this discussion with some Singhs who insisted on carrying 3 ft Kirpans and spears doing the UK riots last Summer. Since I knew some of these guys, I also knew that they were basically just posing for the cameras and if it really did kick off, they would most likely trip over and stab themselves by mistake or something daft like that. How embarrassing would that be? People wouldnt take us too seriously after that.

The image of shastar-dhari Sikhs is a powerful one and we can use it to our advantage to get our way on some pivotal issues. It has a tremendous psychological value and deterrent towards our enemies. However, if we are not careful and we dont regulate its usage. It will start to lose its value and wont work any more.

Let's hope the cholesterol gets to them before the Singhs do... :lol2:

lol. Jokes aside... despite their cosmetic inadequacies the Punjab cops are pretty tough mofos. If faced with aggression, they normally just lob a few tear gas shells and when the mob disperses they give chase and pick up any stragglers. If you are unlucky or silly enough to get caught on your own, you can expect a pretty merciless 5 on beating one beating with lathis and a trip to hospital.

If Sikhs organise themselves like the UK student protestors or GU summit and put the cops on the back foot they will just escalate and up the ante.. ie shoot to kill.

I suppose Sikhs could arm themselves with slingshots and makeshift shields and organise themselves a bit better. To be honest I think that big aggressive crowds are a big no no. Also taking on the police is serious business and shouldnt really be the focus of whats happening on the streets.

As someone said earlier, I would rather that a few small organised groups were ambushing the Shiv Sainiks here and there and giving them a few targeted beatings. Preferably they should film it and put in on youtube so at least the violence looks balanced and Sikhs dont end up getting humiliated so much.

On the one side you deplore you deplore violence of any kind. On the other side you encourage more organised violence?

I can see why that seems kind of confusing.... As I explained before, I am against violence only because it doesnt get us anywhere most of the time. Part of the reason is that we 'do violence badly.' Aggression on the streets, posturing, shouting and waving shastars around does more harm than good.

Small covert and organised groups which are highly disciplined have their place. They are more effective and can do more damage. My point is that if we dont get our act together soon, we will start to look like an overly aggressive but harmless community. I am against violence but if Hindus have the courage to come out on a Punjab bandh, insult and attack Sikhs, beat them up and burn kesri dastaars in the street without fear of consequence, then we have a problem. It means that they dont respect us and they dont fear us.

On Sarabha Punjab's videos of the clashes in Patiala and Gurdaspur, it is clear to me that the Hindus are alot more organised and clever. In Patiala, it was evident that they gained the attention of the Sikh marchers by shouting slogans, then they lured the Sikhs into narrow alley ways from where they were throwing bricks down from the roofs and the Sikhs couldnt do anything. The Sikhs went ballistic and took their frustration out on the police, injuring the SSP and then the police did their usual lathi charge and bashed people up.

There are videos in Gurdaspur and Phagwara of Sikh youth getting picked up and beaten up by Arya Samaj and Hindu mobs that I saw on Sikh channel yesterday. When the Sikhs react aggressively, the police come down hard. I have not seen any footage of Hindus getting beaten up, only Sikhs.

Notice how the Hindus play it sly. Whenever the camera shows the Hindu mobs, they are able to maintain a much calmer and lower profile than the Sikh mobs and you dont seem them carrying lots of weapons, so when the Sikhs go for them, the police is forced to protect them. Very clever.

Anyone who has read alot of my posts will know that I discourage Sikhs from indulging in violence. This is not because I'm a pacifist but because I dont always think that our community is really prepared for the nature of violence and the negative consequences that it brings.

Every disturbance in Punjab over the last few years, whether the sacha sauda kand, ludhiana kand, mumbai kand or the present situation that we find ourselves in, the same pattern appears to be repeating itself. Some mischievous elements provoke the Sikhs. We react with blind rage and without any kind of organisation, ranting and raving with lathis and naked kirpans but usually it is still our boys who end up getting hurt or killed rather than the opposition. Then we take our frustration out on the police who respond in a heavy handed manner, after which our guys end up running away but not before quite a few have beaten up and even killed.

Right now, a brother is dead and many more are in hospital. What has been gained? What has been learnt? Today and yesterday were prime opportunities for us to teach the shiv sainiks and RSS guys a lesson in Punjab when they came out with the sheer audacity to raise anti-sikh slogans and burn a kesri dastaar in the street.

Instead, all that has happened is that the Hindus will get braver because they have seen that they can get away provoking and attacking Sikhs when Sikhs are out in full force in the streets without any kind of serious or dangerous consequences.

I dont agree with violence in Punjab because of the loss of life, the impact on the economy and the lack of development for the Sikh community if Punjab is not kept a peaceful and stable region. However, I think its important that we still have muscle and can demonstrate it when required.

Unless someone can show me different, it just seems that we are losing our teeth and when it really comes down to it, and when we have prime opportunity we just cant deliver the goods and give our opponents a reason to be scared.

I saw the same thing happen with Sant Daduwal's supporters when they used to fight the Sacha Sauda guys. They just used to throw stones at each other for three hours, a little bit of posturing with their sticks and the odd slap here and there, with both sides giving it and taking it. This is not really the way you assert your dominance and scare the hell out of your opposition.

There is a difference between being aggressive and actually being dangerous. At the moment Singhs are just looking like all bark and no bite. Am I the only one that thinks this?

Khalistan Gunman and others, what do you think should happen to improve the situation?

Was anybody killed during the fights during the SP days?

excellent vintage video. blast from the past. Should be saved and archived

Fantastic idea. Should be promoted nationwide. Perhaps a nationwide body such as the Sikh Council could spearhead a project such as this?

OKay Sangat ji, I accomplished what i wanted. At the beginning Pedrorizzo told Khalistanigunman that he is more calm and level headed than him. Here are Pedrorizzo exact words:

Now read his last two post and see how level headed and calm Pedrorizzo is.....HAHAHAA The point of this was to show when Pedrorizzo attacked Maharaj, he was calm and made nothing of it. But when I made this topic about him and said things he didn't like, which showed his true state of mind. Then he went completely mad and went into complete rage. His last couple post show this. This shows he thinks highly of himself and will never let anyone disrespect himself, but it's okay to disrespect Maharaj and Maharaj's teachings.

Since i showed what i wanted to show. I'm done with this thread and Pedrorizzo can keep raging on. Pedrorizzo tried being the cat, but at the end hes a tiny little mouse that just needs a big hug from a brother. He needs some brotherly love in his life.

Yes only five I am totally beside myself with rage, totally burning in ego and lust. Iv just smashed up the house and been out on a killing spree. Whilst you, who have already achieved jeevan mukhti are sitting there in celestial peace with a mala in your hand.

Dude you really need to get over yourself. You make me laugh!

You just described yourself here. You first post encourages others to do the above. My first post tells others to not waste time on this thread and do bhagti. Sri Sukhmani Sahib da paat tells us to do paat and get others to do the same. In every post on any thread, I tell others to do paat. This is the answer to all problems.

You cant read and are resorting to straight up lies like your friend singher. Please highlight in my post where I have used sikhi to manipulate peoples emotions in order to create conflict? I am outright condemning it yet somehow in your eyes I am the one doing it? Do yourself a favour and get some air. You sit here and tell people to do bhagti... talk about stating the obvious. But fair enough I cant knock that or disagree with that. However, you should keep on topic and focus on the subject at hand... unless of course you are trying to argue that doing lots of bhagti makes you want to start wars with people you disagree with and makes you oblivious to the consequences of your actions including damage to innocent civilians?

If doing bhagti makes you want to do that then it is quite a worrying thing and maybe all Sikhs should stop doing bhagti and start smoking weed instead?! It would sound like a more peaceful solution to the worlds problems than doing bhagti, certainly according to the model that you have described!

Are you attacking Only Five now so the focus changes away from how you called Guruji selfish? Of course you're not a Sikh, no Sikh would ever call Maharaaj what you called him. Get lost bro

You are actually thick. I did not call Guru ji selfish. I called the extremist nutjobs such as yourself who act without thinking about the welfare of others as selfish. You are unable to counter to my arguments so you have resorted to straight up lying. So what kind of a Gursikh does that make you?

Do yourself a favour and die for some great cause. Not only will you give your self a first class stamped ticket to sachkhand (lol) you will also making savings on the worlds already depleting oxygen supply. Maybe when you die, then some third rate bhangra singer will make track about you with a heavy bass line and put it on the next shaheedi immortality album.

When Satguru fought wars many innocent people lost their lives. So because of Satguru by your logic, which you showed, Satguru is selfish and was just looking for Sachkhand. Singho, this is why i say these topics are useless. People like this will never get what Sikhi is. It's best not to engage with such people and focus on your own jeevans and those Singhs that have the desire to meet Maharaj, give them to support to further their jeevan. Pedrorizzo type, tell them to do paat and they will go run to a politician and ask how to decieve more people to think their way. Pedrorizzo is an excellent politician and will twist the truth to please his superiors. Pedrorizzo, is going to see us against them. For him his own uncle is an enemy. For Khalsa the enemy on battlefield is a brother. Pedrorizzo will never understand this concept because he doesn't follow Sikhi. He follows his mind wishes.

Lastly and most important thing of all, Pedrorizzo will never answer the main questions of the discussion because he doesn't want to discuss. He wants to put is opinion across and in the process call you guys extremist and put Gurmat as selfish behaviour. He has no other goal. Pedrorizzo just called Maharaj selfish. What in the world do you think he will do for you? Put you on his shoulders and parade you around like your his hero?

Some people don't have anything else better to do in life and Maharaj has put them in this work. Tell him to first do Sri Sukhmani Sahib da paat with love and devotion, then come here and discuss. The answer from his mouth, well you won't here it, but it will be.....do paat!!! i already know what it says in that paat, i don't need to read it again.....such is the state of people that call Maharaj names. If you argue with such people then the filth that is stuck to them will eventual stick to you and lower your jeevan. Tell a person once, twice to discuss honestly and if they don't, end it there and don't respond.

Ask yourself this, why hasn't Gursikhs having a discussion with Darshan Ragi on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. They could in a second show the whole sangat he is wrong. But they don't discuss because all Darshan Ragi is going to do is insult Bani, insult Gurmat, insult Guru Sahib and the Gursikhs will have to suffer the consequences. Darshan Ragi brags to everyone he wants to discuss because he has no problem slandering Maharaj, infact thats his goal. There is no open mind to understand. Pedrorizzo has similar intentions here.

I'm only saying this for your benefit.

Only five is a religious extremist with manipulative intentions. He has no real idea what sikhi preaches. He is a pakhandi, that carries the robe and garb of a spiritual person and speaks the saintly language and feigns enlightenment. He is completely deluded and blindly follows what is told to him by a self-certified 'mahapursh' and the views circulated amongst is small cult like group.

He uses the common tactic of the fundamentalist, anyone that disagrees with his views is anti-Sikh or not a Sikh at all because of course only his views are correct. He is the kind of person that will try to use Sikhi to manipulate your emotions and try to convince you that Sikhi is in grave danger in order to gain popularity and to instigate conflict so that he can take advantage of it and pursue his own agenda.

He has no concept of consequences and as far as he is concerned, his holy crusade has been ordained by God and it is his religious duty so it doesnt matter if innocent people die or suffer because of his actions. To him, it is all for a greater cause... his cause. He does not believe in negotiating or debating because he considers that to be a compromise in his religious beliefs and compromise is something that extremists never do.

It doesnt matter how much you try and reason with them, they are totally deluded and preoccupied with the metaphysical and have no grasp of reality. It is people like them who try to turn Sikhi into a religion of the dark ages. They hinder progress and they are the real reason that the number of Sikhs is decreasing and why Sikhs dont have a homeland. Maybe if they woke up a little bit, then our community could make progress.

Fighting oppression is the least selfish thing one can do

I suppose if your gonna get into a scrap you need lines like this to motivate yourself and convince yourself that you are in the right.

Yes... fighting oppression MAY not be selfish, but lets face it you wouldnt do it unless you wanted to or you were getting something out of it. In the same way that people who do lots of sewa do it because they want to and are getting something out of it. Khalistani gun-man said in a post on another thread that by attaining shaheedi he thinks that he is gaining himself a place in Sach khand so he has a clear motivation wouldnt u say?

So I put it to you that most of these kids that get into this game basically want a bit of drama to spice up their lives and get into a scrap whilst using Sikhi as an excuse. Iv seen it plenty of times. If there were no wars, no conflict and drama, they wouldnt know what to do with themselves.

You can give yourself whatever justification you want and label it however you want, however if other people are suffering because of your actions, then that is selfish.

singh you do know innocent people were killed in the past during the wars with mughals and afghans...many sikhs were killed in cold blood because of the rebellious nature of the khalsa...sadly if we like it or not innocent peeople will always die in wars...no offence singh but i wouldnt think twice about putting every sikh in danger, including my family and yours if it meant fighting for justice and righteousness...if they die now or in 30/40 years i dont care...as long as we make a stand against tyranny and unjustice then thats all that matters..if you dont believe in that..then whats the point of being sikh? guruji says in bachittar natak that he has come to save the saints(rightesousness) and fight and hunt down the evil tyrants(unrighteousness)...what do you expect his sons to do?..sit around like cowards and worry about the materials possesions we have?...

Singh, do you realise what you have just said? This is exactly my point, you are willing to sacrifice me and other innocent people so that you can fulfil yourself by going on a crusade. That is extreme selfishness. Its no wonder that you get a cold reception from community elders, gurdwareh and 'moderate' Sikhs.

The fact that you dont mind sacrificing yourself doesnt really concern me. However, the fact that you dont care what happens to anyone else and are willing to achieve your objectives at any cost is very worrying. This is exactly the reason why people that think the way that you do will always be a small, marginalised force in our community.

well why shouldnt they b praised for their efforts by our community? wats the difference in what their doing (forming groups/vigilantes) and what khalsa misls did in their time. We r short in numbers, but limitless in heart and courage, mona or amritdhari. Sadly we got a lot of pappus around r community, these pappus were even around r gurus times. guru hargobind promised in his young age he would avenge his dads (guru arjan dev ji) shaheedi, ppl laughed at him, sikhi had never raised arms before that period. all pappus were proved wrong in the end, when yrs later chandu was dragged by his nose from gwalior to lahore and killed.

Pappu is a word created by violent nutjobs to describe the rest of the world that wants to live peacefully and avoid bloody streetfights every other day. The real word they should be using to describe these law abiding, working citizens is 'normal people'.

As far as violent, militant action is concerned.. it has its time and place no doubt. My response to you in my earlier post was not to state whether or not they should be praised, merely to state the fact that they wont be. Most 'normal people' or pappus as you have described them dont want to get involved in violence just because some testosterone hyped youth think that they should.

Whether the SP boys were right or wrong to do what they did, there are probably valid arguments on either side of the coin. However, my original point still stands... this path is a lonely path and one that you have to think long and hard before you embark on it. Dont do it with the misguided belief that everyone will want to shake your hand, make statues in your honour or write songs about you. They wont.

There are very few things in life that would cause me to walk that path. Some peoples threshold is much less than mine. However, there are lots of youth that have walked the path and then regretted it afterwards... dont be that guy!

The aim is to stay in Gurmat and if Maharaj's Hukam is for the Khalsa to win then so be it, if it is to lose then the Khalsa still stays in Gurmat and it's always in Chardikala. A Khalsa never forgets he is a Saint. The second Chamkaur Sahib battle when all the Singhs gave Shaheedi, the Khalsa didn't win the battle, but they stayed in Gurmat and won the biggest prize of all; Sachkhand. If Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj taught and was himself about winning worldly battles then with one Jaikara he would have ruled the whole world in a split second and all of the politicians (ruling powers) of today would be bowing their heads at Satguru's feet. Satguru is above such lowly ways and so is his Khalsa. Satguru has given us orders first to do Bhagti and understand what winning and losing is. Those Sikhs that want to conquer the world are diluded. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj said the Khalsa will rule, but understand what this means. Many Sikhs are stuck in pleasing politicians to make this happen (get world opinion, focus on economy (make others better off so they favor the Sikhs)) and many are stuck in using the iron fist to make it happen. Satguru has disregarded both ways and took up the only way. With Pyare and defense in Gurmat to bring everyone to their knees to the teachings of Satguru. A mad lion can be brought to his knees without lifting a finger by the Saint. Do you or any other poster know how to take down a mad lion without lifting a finger? I don't....So if i lift a sword to fight another, who is mad and who is righteous?

I wouldnt have a problem with what you are saying if this was only about the individual. However, unfortunately, the actions of an individual can spiral out of control, and take the lives of many innocent people who are not even involved. Fair enough if a person wants to act and then accept the consequences. However, if an individual acts and there are unwelcome repercussions on other innocent people then that is just plain selfish and not in keeping with Sikhi.

The vast majority of Sikhs want peace. It is a common tactic of extremists in all communities to cause trouble, instigate problems, or even overreact to problems and create civil unrest with a view to 'radicalising the moderates' so that their agenda of revolution can take place.

You may think that you are being a good Sikh and acting in the interests of Sikhi but cause much more harm than good and the rest of the community must suffer the consequences of your holy crusade and pick up the pieces.

Now, you'll have to excuse me for sounding like a coward and not like a brave war-mongering kharkoo ready to blow himself up for Sikhi, but as it happens I value my life and my family and I would hate to take any action that would result in damage or loss of life to innocent people.

Someone who acts without any regard to the consequences is an <banned word filter activated> and someone acts in a way that negatively affects innocent people is extremely selfish and not a very good Sikh, in my humble opinion.

If a Sikh hides Sikh history, then consider them a giddar and a person who doesn't understand Sikhi. Sikhs don't hide their history neither do they force others to read it. It's there for everyone to see, study and if they want to take their point of view and judge Sikh history, then so be it. Ignorance is bliss.

Those that want to know the world's opinions before acting, then they are no better than those who they ask. Khalsa only bows to Satguru and only looks to Satguru before acting. We take Hukams from Satguru not from the world.

This topic is a waste of time because the Sikhs that don't practice Sikhi or havn't taken Amrit will always disagree with Gurmat. They will stick to their opinion and use words like extremist toward Singhs like Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa and if they were born in Satguru's time they will be calling Satguru in many slanderous names. Those that want to know the truth about taking the sword, first need to understand what it means to give and take life. Bhagti is the base of then going into the world and using the sword to protect.

Pedrorizzo....not here to knock you down, but i know you don't or havent ever done bhagti in your life (how do i know....there is much fear in your post of worldly people). You care more about public opinion than accepting the Truth. Sit down one day and let go of all your preconcieved opinions of SIkhi and actually listen to Shabad Guru. You are concerned way too much about what worldly people will think of you if you do or say something and are looking to impress worldly superior people in your life. Instead of saying what others expect you to say, do some paat with love and devotion. The fear you have of what others will think of you will go away.

Only five not to knock you down but you dont live in the real world. Thankyou for your saintly advice and preaching but it is really not necessary. My opinions are not governed by fear, they are governed by what I perceive to be sound strategy and what I think works in the real world. If doing bhagti makes me as deluded as you are then I cant really see the benefit. However, I know that bhagti does not make anyone deluded, hence why I doubt how much bhagti you have done yourself. Concentrate on your own jeevan and leave other people to have their own views.

If it doesnt work..try telling that to the libyans, taliban, and currently the sunnis in syria....but yes i agree with you in regards to sikhs going down the millitancy route...we just dont have the demographics in india to win by force alone

our only option is to go the chinese...as it looks more and more likely they will eventually enter a war with india over certain disputed territories...chinas millitary is miles ahead of indias..so this scenario isnt unlikely...if we seek their assitance in gaining independance in return for fighting for their interests and ours..then i see no proeblem in that...a large scale insurgency in north east india, kashmir, punjab, naxalite controlled areas would smash india into pieces...all thats needed is powerful allies willing to fund and support you...

its always been like that..there are members in our community who will pick up arms and there are some who will go through a more legal democratic approach...in my opinion they are both just as important..without a contingent of armed millitants who are not willing to compromise on their demands there would be no deterent for the enemy...but then again a more legal approach would be seen in good light amongst the international community

then in your opinion when should we pick up arms?...should we discard our gurus teachings?...

there was no alternative to the kharkoo movement...the indian government cornered the sikhs into a corner...they had no other option other than picking up the gun...if that affected the industry in punjab..then thats their fault not ours...they should of known sikhs would react violently and agressively to the invasion of harmandir sahib...if someone invades your house and kills your father and rapes your mother....naturally you want to find and punish the culprits and as you know yourself sikhs will never recieve justice through indian courts...in india..its the rule of the gun

i dont believe sikhs have the right to become millitant when necessary..i believe they should be millitant all the time...you cannot seperate millitancy from the khalsa...sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth encourage millitancy against injustice..so how can you expect the fauj of akaal purkh not to be millitant..but i agree with you...we should resort to violence as a very last resort ...and sometimes its even better to not go violent and use our brains for a change...

are you saying sikhs are not civilised?..are you using the western white nations as a model for a civilised people?...they are the most millitant and warlike nations in the world yet they call themselves civilised...brother this is a inferiority complex...we are not uncivlised....and yes i agree with your view on being integrated...but even then only to a certain degree as being fully integrated would demand you to remove your dastaar, cut your kesh and remove your kirpan/shastar .....and a BIG YES ! to peaceful harmony..thats what we all want!...even us religous zealots lol

Lol. We definitely need people like yourselves to fight the wars. We also need people who think like me to stop things spiralling out of control!

I'll keep this brief. I want to ask the sangat their opinions on an issue that has been on my mind for the past few years.

I'm hoping we're all aware of the current situation in the world regarding the so-called war on terror, and associated issues such as extremism, fanaticism, etc. The Western world (the media and governments) is always looking for assurances from Muslims that they do not endorse the violent behaviour exhibited by certain factions to further their respective causes. Thus, we always hear the classic line "Islam is a religion of peace" as a way of assuring the sensitive West that everything is fine and they've got nothing to worry about.

This got me thinking about Sikhi and how a large chunk of our faith's existence has been spent on the battlefield. Guru Gobind Singh Ji says that the greatest death is one whereby shaheedi is given, and many of us seem to revel in this kind of talk because it makes us feel proud of our heritage and proud of the brave individuals that once populated our homeland & called themselves Sikh.

So my question is this: In this modern world - where the spreading of peace & democracy through warfare seem to be the exclusive preserve of the United States and it's allies - does glorifying violent causes and wars (even if they ARE permissable from a moral and religious (Sikhi) standpoint) and in-fact approving of it's methods and ends - be something Sikhs should not be ashamed to do?

Should we compromise our core beliefs and remain anonymous in order not to be tarred with the "extremist brush" OR should we say "To hell with that! I'm not distorting my faith and it's ideals because it makes a few hypocritical politicians and arm-chair pundits feel uncomfortable"?

Who knows what the future will bring. If there are future conflicts involving Sikhs - such as what happened in Punjab during the 80s and 90s - how many of us will look over the parapets and support our fellow Sikhs even if to the rest of the world it seems like a bunch of mad militants running around causing trouble?

Good question. I interpret this to be a question about strategy. My view on this is that you have to develop a strategy that works under the circumstances.

The reason that I am against militancy is because I believe that it simply doesnt work for Sikhs as a methodology in modern times, but not because of any kind of moral dilemma.

If there is a chance that militancy will work, then there is a case for it. However, unless India is de-stabilised, there is foreign aid, media support, great support amongst the populace, a tremendous amount of fund-raising and Punjab suddenly sprouts vast areas of jungles and mountains, then militancy is doomed to an A-Class fail.

The difference between a religious extremist and a strategist/realist is that the religious extremist will not adapt to the circumstances and instead try to force a certain sequence of events from his own myopic lens (his own religious beliefs or the beliefs of his group) rather than look at the broader picture.

An example of this would be a Sikh who believes that Sikhi gives him the right to take up arms as a last resort and then proceeds to take violent action when he believes that this point has been reached, regardless of whether or not it is a sensible thing to do and when the rest of the world can clearly see that there are still other options available, and still not achieving his goal in the process; a lose-lose situation.

Things to consider are legality, public and world opinion, the knock on effect to innocent Sikhs going about their daily business, the reputation of Sikhs in the media, and negative effects on the economy.... Most people dont realise how badly Punjab's economy has suffered because of the kharku movement. People still harp on about Punjab being India's number one state but forget that it is industrially undeveloped because of its reputation as a troubled region and the resultant high levels of unemployment.

Sikhs should be able to reserve the right to go militant and certainly have the capability to do so if circumstances both necessitate and favour such action, even if it is just for the purposes of self-preservation.

However, in the modern climate, it is always better to portray an image of civility, integration and peaceful harmony.

I think a certain degree of poverty and certainly a life spent living on the breadline is an often overlooked issue, especially in Sikh families who have hit tough times through no conscious decision of their own. Most people (including Sikhs themselves) are under the impression that Sikhs "have it made", and they all send their kids to university and in turn they find well-paid jobs in the I.T. industry or other white-collar professions.

You'll often get people who possibly have not experienced tough times (or forgotten them) saying to - or behind the backs of - those who do find themselves in unfortunate circumstances "Well you obviously didn't work hard enough" or "You must have done something wrong". Which is a valid argument in cases where such a response is applicable, but in other cases it does serve to illustrate what a heartless and thoughtless group of people we can sometimes be.

What more can you expect from a community of maya driven migrants? Money, work, money, work, money work. It is the only language they understand. Completely robot like if you ask me, hence the total disregard for human emotions!

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

CISCO makes some very good points. To be able to productively advise on this subject, requires a person to have had experience of the fighting arts.

Just a few thoughts:

1 – it is not a particular art that makes you a good fighter. It’s the combination of a good teacher and even better student. A good teacher, with dedicated practice and abhyaas, will have gone past the boundaries of his ‘art’ and come into the field of understanding the real skills i.e. body mechanics, positioning, timing, energy conservation, pressure points, muscle/joint manipulation, importance of footwork, breathing and internal power generation/usage. All good MAs share the same knowledge at this high level. There is only so many ways someone can attack you and only so many efficient ways to respond. A cat from Argentina fights the same as cat from Germany, even though they have never met. Man also instinctively has an optimum method of fighting, but years of films, media, McDojo culture have poisoned our natural ability. That is why those who mediate on combat reach near same conclusions. I say this having observed/met true Masters of different regional systems.

2 – Krav Maga is not an ‘art’. It is a mixture of fight responses which varies from teacher to teacher, most incorporate bits and bobs from their previous experience. It’s a good basic method of self defence, albeit being a hard style. Israelis and many other nations including US, are actually head-hunting and incorporating knowledge of other traditional Easter systems into their training, Ninjitsu is very popular in Israel at the moment (do your research).

3 – Re Filipino martial arts (my main area of expertise), Kali, Eskrima and Arnis are not different arts, they are the same. Eskrima is actually a spanish word (Esgrima), Arnis is the name used in different Islands and Kali was mainly popularised by Dan Inosanto. Kali is actually derived from Kalis, a type of sword used by the Muslims in the southern Islands. These names do not refer to a martial art, they are simply a collective term for fighting. There are actually many types of different FMAs under this umbrella, many of them are modern i.e. been heavily influenced by JMAs i.e. Judo and Jujitsu, others heavily influenced by CMAs i.e. 5 Ancestors, Wing Chun, Kuntao. There are very few ‘traditional’ FMAs left, and the ones that are ‘traditional’ are certainly not known in the mainstream. FMA also has it’s own excellent indigenous wrestling/grappling MA called Dumog, as well as native dangerous Thai Boxing and Street Boxing systems. Generally the North is influenced by the Chinese, middle by Japanese and South by Indonesian (Silat). Modern boxing i.e. ducking/diving, bolo punches/sideways (hidden) uppercuts (many things now banned in boxing) were derived from the FMAs through a mix of US Marines who were positioned in PI in the early 1900s and the early PI immigrants in US, most of whom were farmers, who took over the world boxing scene in a storm.

Most of the modern/well known FMA schools are competition based and rely on blocks i.e. stick on stick or sword on sword, the combat (traditional) versions have no blocks. Hence why the combat versions can not be taken to the ring due to dangerous 1 kill movements.

In the old days, (early to mid 1900’s), Filipinos competed in death matches, where the opponent was severely wounded or killed. These are the lineages to find and learn from, not the common sports/competition/grading based ones.

Lastly, there has also been a big Spanish/European influence on FMA, one great example of this the terminology used for the names of all the techniques, they are all Spanish! Plus there are few Spanish colonies dotted around the world, who have their own indigenous stick/knife systems which greatly resemble the traditional PI versions, only the avid MA researcher would know this.

4 – The work Kung Fu is also being misused here. Kung Fu is not a martial art, but simply a term to mean great dedication/achievement. China probably has more fighting systems than the rest of the world put together, having researched (and continuing to do so) it’s a whole universe. Kung Fu describes Chinese MAs, somewhat similar to how the term Shastar Vidya would probably describe various weapons based Indian MAs.

In north China you have the internal boxing styles (what I consider high level arts) i.e. Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua, Xing Yi to name but a few. Whilst the South has more external boxing styles i.e. Southern Mantis, Bak Mei, White Crane, Dragon, Hung Gar, Wing Chun etc. The main difference is the use of aggression, hard conditioning and hard chi, Vs calmness, body manipulation and soft chi. But in between there are many styles including the ones mentioned that make use of both.

In China you also have Sanshou or Sanda, the Chinese ‘sports’ art which is similar to Muay Thai and very dangerous. This art and Filipino Yaw Yan, are very dangerous in the ring and very similar to Muay Thai. But the Filipinos and Chinese clearly distinguish between these ‘sports’ and traditional combat systems. The Thai also pay reverence to the combat ancestors of Muay Thai i.e. Muay Boran, Muay Chaya and Bokator (all 3, great real combat arts).

It’s only here in the media hyped west where we confuse sport and combat.

Always perform a simple test when looking for a ‘combat art’ – does it teach you to deal with blade/sword/any weapon attacks? Does it teach you to deal with multiples? Is it simple to learn i.e. uses one set of principles for all methods of attack. As an example, BJJ/Grappling is not so good to you Vs multiples, weapons or going to the floor on dangerous ground i.e. rocks, broken glass. Same way – any weapon-less MA i.e. Muay Thai, Boxing, Krav will only have very limited success against weapons, especially blades.

The main problem is that there are many McDojos in all styles be it Thai, BJJ (which is Judo actually), Chinese, Japanese etc – it’s extremely hard to find a knowledgeable and genuine practitioner/teacher. Just because we can’t find a good mechanic/dentist/builder/lawyer, doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist.

Whatever art you decide to study, do so with an open mind, pure dedication and hard work ethic, courage and patience. Learn to see beyond the boundaries of your own art, don’t get stuck in cultish or tribal mentality. Learn one art at a time, don’t have 2 feet in separate boats, you will drown. Do a heartfelt ardaas for a good teacher and be patient, Sat-Guru always provide.

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

BJJ is not judo. It is ju-jitsu. Judo actually came from jujitsu. Kano who invented it wanted to make jujitsu into a competitive sport instead of the killing art that it was so he took out all the strikes and many of the submissions and kept the throws and pins and called it judo. Brazilian jujitsu is a form of old style jujitsu that early japanese settlers took to Brazil in the early 1900s. It had a focus on groundfighting and followed a different path of evolution as it was in Brazil. Judo, Jujitsu and Brazilian jujitsu come from the same family or umberella but are also distinctly different.

Haha good point. The other one that makes me laugh is the expression they have in India for sexual harrassment: They call it 'Eve-teasing' lol and it is an actual term that is used in judiciary. Bunch of jokers!

ok hello guys i live in delhi but every one knows about bhindra walla some call him at saint

and some as terrorist in punjab i have seen his many posters on shops even on a building near golden temple a really big poster that u can see from amritsar golden temple entrance gate

so my friends told me he was a terrorist he wanted to make khalistan bla bla bla.............

but

some of other friends think of him as a hero wear his tshirts etc

can some one tell the truth thank u

Everybody has got an opinion on him. You should read up on history and understand both sides and then make your own mind up as to what he was/wasnt

if you have love for the members of your family, and your seeing your family fall apart you will do as much as you can in your power to make things right. Beyond that it's out of your control and at all times you remain Chardikala.

A Panthic Sewadar should be the same. He should be koumi Dhardi, he should feel the pain of our people. The pain of poverty ridden shaheed families, our brothers on drugs, our sisters selling themselves short.homeland occupied by butchers. the pain must remain there, the spark must be present at the same time remain chardikala. think concisely, make short/med/long term plans.. help Sikh schools for the future.. educate the families now.. send money to Shaheed pariwaars.

often people come out with elaborate theories, super saakhis and random quotes, try to explain theories such as karam, hukam.. blah blah.. just to make them selves feel ok about doing NOTHING.. that's all i see.

When it comes to their own families.. then nothing is left to hukkam or karam. relentlessly seek best schools, homes, cars education.. leaving nothing to chance...

Good points

Sat Sri Akal,

I am the original poster, deleted my account by mistake. Thanks for your reply veerji

ur welcome!