Sherdil

I'm not saying withold food. Just dont farm the land, let it regenerate and return to woodland and farm the remaining areas sustainably. India is rich enough to buy their food from abroad now, they can let us get on with sorting out East Punjab.

Okay sorry bro, I misunderstood.

However, farmers can't stop farming because that is their only means of livelihood. They used to join the military in large numbers, but the government has put a quota on the number of Sikhs that can join the army now. Sikhs are gulaam in India, just like Sant ji said. They have no choice, but to farm and they get paid scraps in return. There is no way out for the small farmers besides suicide.

Even NRI land is rented out to small farmers. No farming means no money.

allowing NRI owned land to not be farmed and giving two fingers to the Indian state when they ask where the food's gone.

They did that in the 80's. Punjabi farmers withheld food and taxes from the central govt. to protest against the rejection of Anandpur Resolution. Indira Gandhi deployed 100,000 troops in Punjab, and it also caused her to hasten the attack on Harmandir Sahib. Sant ji had overlived his usefulness as the boogeyman. It was all a front to cripple Akali political dominance in Punjab.

Good. Maybe jats can start to try and use their heads together (maybe lay off the bhangra, booze and smack for a bit?) and think up of some good plans? Anything beats waiting around and constantly whinging about central government to rescue Panjab - especially when they obviously aren't inclined to do so.

Whilst they are at it, maybe, just maybe, they could face up to some bitter home truths about why they are so disliked by everyone - other than wheeling out the old 'because they are jealous' buckwas that has been hidden behind for so long now.

We can hope huh? lol

Idk...us rural peasants might need the help of other groups too. Maybe ask some of them to take on their fair share of responsibility as well.

As long as we move forward together.

Then (shock, horror) work with and cooperate with - and even take the leadership of intelligent capable members of other nonjat (and even nonSikh) members of Panjabi society who have a strong, inclusive, progressive vision for Panjab's future that doesn't hinge heavily on farming .

Tell that to the central government. They don't want to industrialize Punjab because it is a border state with a hostile enemy. Vast farmlands provide a good battle ground against Pakistan.

They will have to industrialize once the water runs out. It will run out. It's only a matter of time.

Not at all. Badal is an shining example of exactly the type of selfish, status, money obsessed jat mentality people are complaining about.

Earlier some wally made the point about saint ji and his background. Well my response is that Sant ji never EVER exhibited those typical jat traits that have brought jats to their knees today. Sant ji lived humbly and served the panth, todays jat thinks he is some sort of born king. Sant ji lived an austere life, todays jat wants all mod cons and feels jealously suicidal at the next man's wealth. Sant ji hated 'whisky, shisky drinking sardars', todays jats are largely 'whisky shishky drinking sardars'. Sant ji hated based, foolish 'folk songs' and bhangra culture- todays jat argues that these things are jat culture itself.

if jats are complaining about Panjab - then they should also take note at who have been at the helm of its leadership uncontested for ages now - fellow jats. Says it all.

Wow...the height of ignorance. You wear it with such pride!

I brought up Sant ji to show that not all Jatts are the same. I'm not bragging that he was from my caste. It's your inferiority complex blinding you again!

If Punjab is going down the drain, it's because of the Indian govt. They've taken our water, and made us grow rice and wheat at marginal prices to feed the rest of the country. But go ahead. Keep blaming Jatts. It makes you feel better for any injustice you think you've suffed. Why don't you sign up for the Congress Party while you're at it.

Jatts are not on their knees. The ones with big land holdings are doing better than okay. They don't even farm anymore. They lease the land to small farmers or they have sold their land a long time ago. It's the small farmers who never got theirs during the Green Revolution, who are suffering.

I pray that you never see a Non-jatt drinking alcohol or doing drugs. It just might be too much for you to handle and burst the little bubble you are living in. As a matter of fact, don't ever leave your house. This way your warped view of the world will remain intact.

WSL "Jatts beat the crap out of some poor "choora" like its some sport back in the day" --Highlighted the bit you obviously missed.

Obviously I have blinkers on and making up stuff when even youtube clips show how Jatts treat non Jatts... and even if I was to post the names of Jatt Gurdwaray that discriminate non-Jatts you would think I was making it up...o come on are you now even denying Jatt/Lubana power struggles that have been publicised. Once again you seriously think there is no Jatt Gurdwaray you live in bloomin West London!!!! Why do you think Ramgharia, Chamars etc opened up thier own Gurdwaray?! Did the Jatt Gurdwara welcome them with open arms?!?

How about read some independent research... Sikhs in Europe by Knut Jacobsen 2011 that will highlight several Jatt Gurdwaray that discriminable other castes... or are they just making it up as well?

There is no Gurdwara called "Jatt so and so gurdwara", but there are plenty of Gurdwaras called Ramgarhia, Labana, whatever.

You make it sound like Non-jatts aren't allowed in certain gurdwaras. I'm not talking about the pindh in Punjab. I'm talking about Western countries. If a non-Jatt walks into a "Jatt Gurdwara" do you think alarms are gonna go off? Are they gonna grab you and throw you out? No they won't! Do you have your caste written on your forehead?? Even if you did, it wouldn't matter.

It has to do with committees that run the gurdwaras. Unfortunately they are caste based, but to go and make your own gurdwara based on your own caste isn't solving the problem! I don't know why you can't understand this.

If Jatts discriminate against you, then why do you have to discriminate against each other? Bania vs Kamboj vs Tarkhan vs Labana vs whatever. Are Jatts forbidding you guys from mixing with each other? Give me a break!!

Oh okay, you peasants waiting on me to make a comment huh? lol

Erm...hows about.....

Only the most ignorant hogis in the world (i.e. a lot of them) would act oblivious to the fact that attitudes towards them stem largely from their own behaviour outwards.

The abject failure to face up to long term, negative attitudes and actions towards those deemed 'lesser breeds' or 'lower' come home to roost with apathy being reciprocated. But that is lost on the average jat who has a victim complex ironically at par (if not greater) than that the ubiquitous one he frequently 'sees' in others.

The long term celebration of alcoholism amongst that society is a fact - be in denial about it at your own peril.

The erosion of spirituality based worldviews for a material, status obsessed one (and I use the word 'obsessed' here purposefully!), is plain to see by all. Few conscious jats would deny this.

Some questions are in order:

How long could the haughty way that jatts buy into anything that fuels their egos really last? What goes up MUST come down? Like their psychological slave-masters the Brits, jatts actually believed their own press pumped into their heads under colonialism without thinking to much about long term consequences or even short term motives of the ego fuellers. Now, just like the once 'Great' British, who haughtily surveyed their massive conquests/empire and believed the sun would never set on it, jatts too are having to reconcile themselves with being brought down a peg or 5 by natural events.

Nothing stays static - every 'great' community/race/people of the past have been humbled and brought back down to earth - that is God's way. The main lesson to learn (in my opinion) is that we shouldn't buy into, or encourage inflated opinions of ourselves and our own community, because people easily get carried away with that - until the walls of reality come tumbling around us and we eventually gain the profound understanding (if we are lucky) - that, hang on, we were human and fallible like everyone else, after all.

Look, seriously, Panjab jatt society is in a big mess right now. It is hard not to see a lot of this as self-inflicted. How jats of Sikh background have managed to alienate so many of their own Sikh brothers and sisters of a different background is something any jatt with an ounce of integrity needs to ponder upon seriously in my opinion. If after trying this, the conclusion you come to is that 'it's all x, y and z's fault' (i.e. no critical self-reflection), think about the very mindset that causes one to think in that narrow way perhaps?

Let's be frank, a lot of us could see the mess we are in today coming way back. Me personally, current events just reinforce my belief in natural, God driven justice:

ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

I'll leave you to this debate. Personally I wish we could start getting busy with a grander vision than these caste based ones myself.

Only a fool would say that this is God given justice. Way to alienate your own brothers.

By the same token, what happened to Sikhs in Delhi was God's justice too. Let it be known: When Sikhs came running from West Punjab, they found East Punjab being run by Jatts. They saw us as unfiltered and uncivilized rural folk, so they moved on to Delhi and made their own Gurdwara Committee.

Do you know of the Green Revolution??? The World Bank and US govt. designated India to be an experiment for a new genetically engineered miracle seed that would feed the new Asian nations and save them from the spread of communism.

Punjab was selected as the experiment site, and the farmer was the guinea pig. Genetic crops did produce high yields, but they drained the soil of nutrients and water. The weak genetic crops were decimated by pests. So the World Bank allowed foreign pesticide companies to pump Punjab full of chemicals. That is why Punjab is a leading cancer state.

Punjabi suba movement gave the central govt. an excuse to drain Punjab's water into Haryana. Till this day, Punjab is the ony state in India that doesn't have control over its own water. Punjab's water table is receding every year. Soon it will be a desert. The Punjabi farmer has been forced to make do with inferior crops and minimal water to feed the entire country food that are not even a traditional part of the Punjabi diet.

The big landholders were able to make money and live comfortably for the rest of their lives, but the small farmers are stuck in a cycle of debt, because they need to borrow money to build irrigation systems. But then then they can't pay back the money because their weak crops get decimated by pests. There isn't even a formal money lending system in India to protect them.

All these grievences were included in Anandpur Sahib Resolution. The govt. rejected them. Sant ji was fighting for these things. Don't forget that he was from a farmer background too.

Sorry for multiple posts. My Internet connection is poor, as I'm currently traveling abroad.

It is wrong for Jatts to treat Mazbhis poorly in a gurdwara. But then why don't you guys invite them into your wn gurdwaras? You guys want nothing to do with them either. It is easy to bame just one group, but if all of the other castes joined together, they would outnumber Jatts by a lot.

Man, if a Jatt insists that you provide your caste name then give him a good slap. He is an <banned word filter activated>, but blaming all Jatts for the actions of a few idiots is wrong. That's like calling all blacks criminals or all orientals bad drivers.

I am a Jatt. I will not deny that. That is what my ancestors did. That does not make me better than you, nor does it make me less than you.

If you are a Sikh, then you are my brother and I got your back. That's all I'm gonna say.

Sherdil,

Ok, I've gone back to re-read your post Sherdil. I admit, I initially did read it as your grandparents. Like you have already clarified, your grandparents were merely saying that "other jat folks did it", not themselves, so I apologise for saying it was another poster on here (although I didn't mention your name). However, I should have read it carefully, and fair is fair, I read it incorrectly. Sorry.

However, it doesn't actually detract from the very fact that it happens/happened, as you yourself acknowledged, which is the underlying point being made. Furthermore, I stand by everything else I said in the above post.

You say blame brahmins? Every brahmin I speak to is amused that a group of people who mock hinduism for establishing the caste system now practise it themselves and infact, those same brahmins struggle to recall a bollywood song bigging up brahimins yet songs 'bigging up jats' roll off their tongues as if it was saliva ten to the dozen. Can you see why even brahmins are now frustrated that they are still getting the blame? And even more bizarrely, whilst even they acknowledge that they are pioneers of the dreaded caste-system, even they (brahmins) are mystified why their ideology is mostly strongly propogated by those aren't even hindu!

Caste-based gurdwarae are wrong. But why did they spring up? Theres no point saying they are wrong, I mean so is cancer, but it still happens...why? What is the underlying reason? Maybe the youtube video showing the disgraceful treatment the mazhbis's receive will give some insight into why they would prefer to be treated with diginity and respect. If they, and others, feel the only way to achieve this is to set up a seperate gurdwara, then what am I to say to him? "No, you can't establish your own (insert any non-jatt caste name here) gurdwara, but you must continue to be treated as a second-class Sikh in a "one-for-all" gurdwara?".

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree with caste-based gurdwarae, nor do I attend one, but I know why they exist.

It's nice for you to say "fix yourselves first". Very nice indeed. But when the majority community are refusing to give up the caste-based prejudices, what chance has the guy from a 'smaller community'? Let me give you a clear example: when a guy asked what my surname was, I say "Singh", if he's jat he'll say "no, whats ur real surname? If you dont write it after ur name or u don't want to tell me, then it means you're not a jat and you're from a low-caste (his words) and therefore you're hiding something by not telling me what caste you're from!" Make no mistake, thats the mentality we are dealing with.

Brahmins still practice the caste system. In that same video (I believe there are multiple parts), a Hindu doctor is not treated with the same respect as his colleagues, or even his juniors, because he is from a lower caste. India has been run by the same Brahmin family since its inception. Let's see a Dalit become Prime Minister before we say Brahmins have washed their hands clean.

Those songs bigging up Jatts were never meant to turn into the gandh they are today. Putt Jattan De by Surinder Shinda is such an innocent song. He's not saying Jatts are better than anyone else. He was giving Jatts something to feel proud of. As if "Yeah I'm a son of a farmer, and I don't care what you think of it. This is who I am, if you don't like it then whatever. Bruah!"I don't listen to most of the nonsense that is passed off as Bhangra music today. I agree with Bobby Friction. CASTE SONGS SHOULD BE BANNED.

Racist? I call it as I see it. For the best part of the last 15 years, I have read article upon article stating that "jats aren't a caste, jats are a race", "jats were somehow born with greater powers or some make-belief elevated position in feudal society". As for any "insecurity complex clouding reading abilities?", only 2 weeks ago I read on another thread a poster from SikhSangat stated how his ancestors "phyisically abused" non-jats if the non-jat somehow "didn't do as they were told" as it were

What bakwaas is this? Go back and read the posts. Nobody claimed that their ancestors did anything like this.

I was describing things that used to happen during my grandparents time, after some posters insisted that I ask them about it.

I never said my grandparents did this.

Nobody is condoning caste abuse. Nobody is sayng they are above or below anyone else. If you wanna get mad at the past then go and blame Brahmans. They are the ones who put you in your castes in the first place.

You all practice caste. You all have your own caste gurdwaras. You all use your caste surnames. None of you extended a hand out to the Dalits. You wanna fix the caste problem? Fix yourselves first.

Easy for all these politicians to sit in Dehli and blow their horns but whos going to be caught in the middle of it all .... YES, punjab !!!!

If there is a war, who gonna be sent to the front lines to die? SIKHS!!!!

Other 15th century Arabic paintings match closely with the style of OP's picture.

From their names, the victims appear to be Sikhs.

India is shady though.

Let's see.

EDIT: Chatttisinghpura Massacre. 36 Sikhs killed by Hindu militants in JK. India blamed it on Pakistani extremists. Occurred in March 2000, and coincided with Clinton's visit to Pakistan.

Apologies

That's because Sikhs have a blinkered view of the world. It's not just our own lot who screw us over and take advantage. The Gujis/everyone else do it because they know they can get away with it. It's not like Badal's goverment are going to protest to the Gujis to reverse what they've done and do something if they dont. Like confiscate Guji owned land or businesses in EP and give them to the dispossesed as compensation and then fill up some trucks with waste and dump it on the Guji farms that have been stolen.

If Sikhs didnt let people mess with us, they wouldnt.

Yeah you right. People take advantage of our kindness.

Although, we did fight back in the 80's. We just too small a minority. Nobody is doing parchar to increase our numbers. We just keep dividing ourselves up into factions. The other day I read about a Sehajdhari Sikh party running against Akali Dal. LOL. We just keep slapping ourselves.

he needed to think befor goin o the show . Now even less blonds wil be up 4a singh. thank mate

Why are Singhs chasing blondes in short skirts? What's wrong with the bibiyan who go to gurdwara every Sunday and do seva? Why do they get ignored? Mad hypocritical.

This is just a rerun of the Terai when Sikh farmers were allowed to clear jungle and malerial swamps to turn into productive farmland and then this was grabbed by the government using the excuse that the land had never been registered to them!

There have been stories like these of Sikh farmers going to countries as diverse as Ethiopia, Uganda and even Ukraine in the last few years. The land will never be owned by them and once it become productive it will be seized off them.

It has happened in Gujarat. Sikh farmers cultivated land that nobody else wanted. They made crops grow where no one else could. Then Modi's govt. took out a court order to freeze their land holdings.

Why are Gujarat's borders closed to Sikhs, when Punjab's borders are open to everyone?

Seli Topi

"Nanick's coat is blue, his cap particoloured red, yellow and blue."

If people stop eating langar, then the sevadars will have no seva!

You would disrupt the entire gurdwara ecosystem!

Much love to SikhWorldTv and Pehlvan for putting up the video.

When people see a sardar, they see a religious person. I'm talking about Western people. So when a Singh goes on a dating show, he comes off as a hypocrite. The same way we would cringe if we saw a Hijabi or a Hasidic Jew on one of those shows. The reaction would be "What? Are you serious?"

That's why it comes off a bit comical.

He's a decent looking guy, he dresses well, and he has a good personality. I think the irony of the situation is what put everyone off. Anyone who wears their religion on their sleeve, and goes on those dating shows, is bound for failure.

Far as I know Lala Lajpat Rai recommended the idea, but no one actually took it. Read 'Sundri" by Bhai Vir Singh. Its based on research and just goes to show you how if a Hindu became a Sikh he was heavily stratified and sidelined by his family.

Oh, idk I was told differently. I thought the trend started during Guru Gobind Singh ji's time and during Khalsa Raj. If they became Sikhs, then they got privileges and protection.

I didn't know about that book. I will look into it. Thanks.

Jodie <banned word filter activated>...I mean winkler.

If there was ever a time I would support a girl wearing a burqa, you would be it.

Dumb blonde.

Can someone post a link to the show, for those of us not in the UK?

I wanna see what happened too!!!

You should buy a new metal shovel regardless.The zombie apacolypse will be upon us soon

LOL. I'll be ready for them.

Dishoo, Dishoo, Dishoo!!!

Whenever we corner them on the '84 issue, they retreat by calling us Khalistani extremists.

We saw the same thing after Bhai Rajoana's ordeal. Manmohan "Singh" went to Canada, U.S.A. and U.K. to tell their governments to crack down on Sikh "extremism".

There was no extremism going on. People were just more vocal about the unfair treatment of Sikhs and the lack of justice for '84 victims. Canada's govt. has told India that they will not compromise on their principle of freedom of speech. India doesn't understand the concept.