UKLondonSikh

So come on fellow soldiers ... how do we achieve our aims in reality ... and what do you think is a realistic timeframe for getting to that day of true SatSangat? Can the youth flood Gurdwara's memberships given the rules and restrictions in place or are local petitions and referendums more realistically achievable? Your ideas are welcome as this issue really hurts all sincere Sikhs and makes me very ashamed of our community. How can we spread Sikhi when this cancer within our community is plain for all to see? It's 2012 and at the matrimonial stage this baqwaas becomes relevant!? No wonder the enemies of the Panth saw an easy opening to splinter away the Ravidassia ancestry brothers and sisters among us after Vienna, despite the fact genetics proves we are part of a united+genetically related human family.

I very much agree with N30Singh, Sherdil and the Cali Sardar as stated below ... however, I'm gana focus my reply to West London Singh below

To the OP: If you are saying that people who don't want Khalistan are moderates, then are you calling the rest of us extremists?

Benti, to brothers and sisters: Please refrain from using tags like moderate and extremist. These words create divisions within a community. There are no moderates or extremists in Sikhi. We are all on the same team. We are all family.

Every Sikh wants Khalistan. There is not one community on this Earth that doesn't want their own homeland. Why wouldn't someone want an opportunity to take charge of their own destiny?

The two camps are divided into people who think Khalistan is attainable, and those who don't think it's attainable. It's not a question of want or don't want. It's a matter of whether or not the dream is out of reach.

Let's say the football club you support is doing really well. They sell-out the stadium every match. Their fans are some of the most passionate fans in the league. All of a sudden, the team starts to play poorly. They start losing games. Less and less fans start coming to the games. The team becomes abysmal, and a lot of fans just give up on it. They don't see the point in investing their time and energy supporting a team that always loses. The die-hard ones keep supporting the team. They keep coming out to the games. Some clever people might even label them "extremists". Now the team signs one of the best players in the world. They start playing well. They win almost every game. Fans start coming back and supporting the team, because they believe that the team can win the championship again.

^^This mentality is seen in every movement. People won't give you their support unless you can show them that the goal is attainable. People won't actively campaign for Khalistan, unless you make them believe its attainable.

I've been trying to read all of the posts. Everyone is making good points, but what about the logistics? How do we go about obtaining Khalistan?

Some members outlined the borders of Khalistan. I think more thought should be given towards the non-Sikhs that live within those borders. I don't think non-Sikhs want their homes to end up in Khalistan.

Would there be an armed struggle? India has tanks and aircraft. How do we fight against that?

I don't think a peaceful movement would work either. Peaceful movements only work in civilized societies. The British didn't abduct Gandhi and kill him in a false encounter.

I think the only way to create Khalistan is to do more parchaar. Spread our faith. The more people that embrace Sikhi, the better. There is no reason why all of India can't become Khalistan. I've said this before, and someone very wise stated that Hindustan cannot become Khalistan overnight. I agree. It will be a long battle, but I think it is the most effective way. More Sikhs means more Sikhs in government. Instead of fighting the government, we can become the government. More missionary schools and programs are needed, but you don't have to be a missionary. You can talk about Sikhi with anyone you meet. Whether it is at a bus stop, at work, or whatever.

52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh

# 27) "Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa".

- Rule independently. In the affairs of government, do not give people of other religions authority / power.

I think you make a great point about the need to galvanize support from the common man and woman in Punjab, and you also rightly point out the problem with the term "Khalistan" and how it has a stigma attached to it.

However, this whole notion that there could be a broader Punjabi movement for a separate Punjab nation that is not synonymous with the desire for a sovereign Sikh state (call it "Punjab" or "Azad Punjab" or "Khalistan" or whatever) is a pipe dream.

Hindu Punjabis are never going to want an independent Punjab. The only Punjabis left wanting an independent Punjab will be Sikhs. So however anyone chooses to define and label the movement, it will be seen as a Sikh movement for an independent Sikh state.

If you don't believe me, check what happened in the 1960s when the Sikh leadership sought to divide Punjab along linguistic (rather than religious) lines. Did the Hindu Punjabis step forward and say "hell yeah, we're Punjabi and we want a separate state where our language is preserved"? No. They chose to identify themselves as native Hindi speakers even though they spoke Punjabi. If Hindu Punjabis could not be rallied by Punjabi nationalism then, they certainly are not going to be rallied by Punjabi nationalism now given what has transpired in the last 35 years.

The possibility that there could have been a movement for an independent Punjab where being Punjabi (rather than belonging to any specific religion) formed the basis for a nation came and went in 1947. Then, a state of Punjab could have been formed where no religion formed a majority (if the boundaries were drawn right, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus would each have been less than 50%). Now, given the Sikh majority of what remains of Punjab, asking for an independent Punjab means asking for an independent Sikh state.

By the way, I just want to point out that an independent Punjab has some historical basis, but what is now the Indian state of Punjab was never its own nation. Remember, Ranjit Singh's empire was only northwest of the Sutlej River (in other words, it didn't include Malwa). A majority of what is now Indian Punjab was either ruled directly by the British, or was part of one of several semi-autonomous Sikh princely states. Before then, it was mostly controlled by the Sikh misls, but it was not united as one nation.

Anyway, I think you make some great points about how we should handle things as a community (i.e. dealing with police, etc.)

I've said it before I'll say it again. Freedom...is a universal right.

>>Absolutely correct

The desire to be free is common to all mankind. Only a Sikh that has brain deformities would want his nation to be illegaly part of a country that tricked them into being part of that nation in 1947 by telling blatant lies and since then has murdered a quarter of a million of them and spits on them, rapes them, demoralises them, subdues them, enslaves them and ..ulmitately destroys them.

>>Respectfully Paji, i also hate the vast majority of corrupt delhi politicians who were involved in the attempt to wipe our Qaum out ... but there are those, like myself (who after the tragic events 1984 were obviously turned 100% pro-Khalistani after that) ... who now believe that things have moved on to a degree (Shaheedi of Bhai Jaspal Singh and several other examples notwithstanding) ... such that we can progress more concentrating on issues other than Khalistan in the short term (ie remaining within in the Republic of India with all states pretty much in support of the main ethos of the Anandpur Sahib resolution + subject to the centre implementing it ... as with the Anand Marriage Act). Also I think it's a bit much to say that we are "slaves" when the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the Chief Economist of India is a Sikh, the representative to the UN is a Sikh, the new head of the Indian Army will again be a Sikh and when 75% of the MP's + MLA's in Punjab are Sikh + 85% of the Punjab Police are Sikh.

The problem, as I stated many times before, is that we are not dealing with a civilised free country.

>>Totally agreed. There is no real respect for human rights in India (so let's be cautious about how we operate + defeat them from a position of strength rather than our current position of weakness in terms of drug usage, caste consciousness + other vices + demographic disadvantages)

Just think, if England was as 'democratic' as India there would hardly be a Scotsman and a Welshman alive today. In democracies, Scotsman and Welshman are allowed to hope for a free independent nation....They're allowed to think about an independent nation.....They're allowed to talk about an independent nation.....They're allowed to lobby for an independent nation....They're allowed to stand in elections on that platform and win as the candidate wanting indpendence. If England was a 'democracy' like India, James Bond (Sean Connery) would have been picked up the police years ago, hung upside down and tortured to death. Alex Salmon, the leader of the Scottish Assembly, would have been arrested, sentenced to death, taken to the capital and hung.

So....lets rmember this point, which ties in with my earlier points about the name of our nation.

>>I totally agree with you that this was how the Dehli Sarkars operated in the 80's + 90's

For the last 2 weeks, i have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that the Indians (army and police) have been examining every you tube and tv footage of the protests in Punjab. They have been identiofying each person that publicly uttered 'khalistan zindabad' and they have been hunting them down and arresting them.

>>Sadly i suspect you may be correct. However, I think Sikh media is thankfully more alert now.

I've always felt that this issue of 'semantics' is a real one. You just don't hear the word 'khalistan' coming from the mouths of Sikhs enough for it to become a reality.

>>To be honest i feel the word is over-used in 2012 ... and that we need to step up and address bigger issues relating to our Panth before even contemplating Khalistan.

Freedom movements and revolutions need momentum. I've always said that the term khalistan is the wrong one to use for our freedom. One reason, that I've already mentioned, is that it brings almost instant arrest and by default torture. Another reason, which I mentioned in a previous message, is that by using the term 'khalistan' we are failing to tap into the psyche of the common man and woman in Punjab. The common man and woman in Punjab, whilst not particularly religious, has a raging fire of Punjab pride burning in his or her belly. In order for the freedom movement to gain momentum, we need to tap into that raging fire. The mantra in Punjab and abroad, should not be 'Khalistan Khalistan'. It should be 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB'. Add in prefixes to 'Punjab' you want. But...our independent nation should be called 'Punjab'. Why ? Because thats exactly what it is. It will be the area which today is called the state of Punjab. The language of the country will be Punjabi. The people of the country are called Punjabis. It does exactly what it says on the tin : Punjab.

>>Good point ... but let's face it Punjabiyat doesn't have much to offer us ... Sikhi is the only thing of any value that Punjab has ever offered us ... and as we all know four of the Panj Pyaaray themselves were not Punjabi. Should we effectively contain ourselves in the tiny "tin" of present day Punjab ... or should we work to peacefully and constructively spread Sikhi like a virus through India ... so that the Sajjan Kumar types will never think "oh Sikhs are just 1.9% of the population let's kill them off because their dharam with its message of social justice and equality is a threat to established interests". Rather than wanting a return to fanciful maps ... let try work to ensure that there are at least more Sikhs in India than there are Muslims.

Who's the police and army gonna hunt and arrest when 99.9% of the population are publicly shouting Punjab mera des ?

>>True. An independent Punjab would be unstoppable if 100% of the people (or even 100% of the Sikhs) supported it. However, as you know, political support for Khalistan is actually a minority amongst Sikhs living in Punjab as evidenced by SS Mann's party not even getting a single MLA out of 117 seats. That's a pretty comprehensive rejection of Khalistan.

Like I said...when we state the term 'Khalistan' it conjures up images into peoples heads of a fantasy land. A fantasy land thats never been before so why should it be now. An independent 'Punjab' nation, on the other hand, has historical fact behind it. It was before and so why should it not be again ? It has legitimacy behind it. It makes it harder for our enemies to dismiss it as 'fantasy talk'.

>>History is exactly that - the past. Our aim should be to focus on the (bigger) issues that matter now + which will shape the future imho.

We Sikhs have had the same poor tactics for decades now. All we're achieving is death and slavery. We need to evaluate our tactics.

>>I agree. I think focussing our efforts on Khalistan ... when our dushmaan are even trying to splinter away from Sikhi the 15% or so strong component of Sikhs who call themselves Ravidassia ... is playing right into our enemies hands. Let's beat them on the simple stuff first. When we achieve that we'd be half way there. They are scared of Sikhi because if 50 million Jatavs (Ravidassia of Uttar Pradesh etc) like Mayawati of the BSP Party (not that I respect her as an individual or anything!) who revere Guru Ravidass Ji just as much as we do as Sikhs ... were to join Sikhi ... they would never manage to stop the onward path of Sikhi. If they splinter us from within they kill two birds with one stone. All 200 million plus Dalits of India are natural born Sikhs ... but the enemies of the Panth have the "divide+conquer" stuff down to a fine art.

Lets learn from the UK students last year. These beer swilling party animals sat down and actually analysed the crown control tactics used by Scotland Yard. The little students outsmarted Scotland Yard with good organisation and awareness of tactics. This is a problem we Sikhs have always had. Lets take the recent demonstrations in Punjab for example. In any other demo and police charge I have seen on the news from around the world, whenever a protestor is grabbed by a policeman, the protestors always rush in en masse and free their comrade. This is the common feature everywhere on earth except.........Punjab. Fat policemen with nothing more than a stick were grabbing hold of Sikhs.....but the other Sikhs were running away. Surely, with a bit of planning and tactics, the Sikhs of Punjab can always agree to never abandon a fellow Sikh. Not only would it free their fellow sikh but it ensures that the Punjab police would always be too scared of grabbing a sikh in the first place.

>>True (but let's not forget that 85% of those fat cops are mostly Sikh ... at least nominally)

Anyway, in conclusion, we need to re-evaluate our tactics. Right now, we need to tap into the emotions of the common man and woman in Punjab. That common man and woman, has a burning love of a free Punjab burning in their belly. Up untill now we've done nothing to keep that fire burning...because we've kept talk on a mystical concept that means nothing to their psyche : Khalistan.

Lets get some momentum going by keeping talk on the demand for freedom for 'Punjab'. A nation called 'Punjab'.

>>I think let's address the drugs + zaath/paath issues. I don't think anybody's democratic right to campaign for an independent Punjab should be stopped in any way ... but I really feel that it's a dangerous distraction from bigger problems and causes polarisation. Before Indira's evil campaign against our Qaum ... all so-called Hindu-Punjabi's would visit a Gurdwara at least once a year if not much more often in fact ... in my eyes anyone that bows before Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is a Sikh ... we need to stop polarisation from Hindu's and remember that if the first generations of Sikhs were composed of erstwhile Hindus+Muslims ... why cannot future generations be drawn towards Sikhi in increasing numbers as education increases amongst the Indian population? Surely 1 God + equality of all is a better message than the multitude of gods + goddessess along with Manu Smriti which advocates caste discrimination openly.

This battle for freedom will be won and lost over the media. Their size, their tanks and missiles mean nothing in this battle. The battle will be won by those who can best manipulate the media. We have no exuse to lose this battle.

>>I would add to this that demographics is a crucial challenge. Forget about sava lakh from the times of the Guru's ... in 2012 ... odds of 50 to 1 do matter ... so why not focus on getting Sikhs to a demographic critical mass first via good works that help the poor + downtrodden of India. Those people might be included on censuses as Hindu's ... but I firmly believe them to be natural-born Sikhs. Neither can we expect everyone to have full kes overnight ... there need to be a critical mass of honest sehajdhari's within which Khalsay genuinely dedicated to Sarbat dha Bhalla (Amritdhari individuals) can flourish

From now on NEVER EVER fall into the Indian trap of seeing the Pakistanis and muslims as our enemies.

>>I strongly disagree with you on that. True that Bhai Mardana Ji was the first Sikh. However, let's not forget that the Muslim Jatt's killed off 300,000 Sikhs in 1947. Ie a hundred times worse than Rajiv + Sajjan Kumar etc planned in Delhi. In 1947 that was 10% of the Sikh population at the time ... ie the equivalent of if 1.5million Sikhs were butchered by Indira.

All of us here know that the reason we have made so little dents into the Indian machine over the last few years is because the Indians have cleverly manipulated us to fight their dirty war by proxy against the pakistanis. Lets get this straight...The pakistanis never were our enemies and never will be our enemies.

>>Hindu Punjabi's may have denied their mother tongue in 1966, but they will still give their daughters in marriage to Sikhs. Pakistani Punjabi's hate us a lot more and would never give their daughters in marriage to a Sikh. Pakistan's ISI does however see merit in using Sikhs to create an internal security issue so that they can work on how to eliminate the Sikhs of Kashmir in due course.

We Sikhs need to be on very friendly terms with the enemies of our enemy.

>>Yes the saying is that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" etc BUT...

i.e.....Pakistan and China.

>>BUT these two countries make India's human rights record look good. Do you really think Sikhs could hold the positions and wealth they do in India if Pakistan had won Punjab like they coveted in 1947? Do we really want to make deals with those who have great reverence for Aurangzeb and the evil regime that is trying to eradicate the Tibetan nation?

Be on friendly terms with the nations that would love to see India implode from within.

Ever heard of the 'Great Game' ? History tells it as the great game of polictics....and political manouvering. It was played between Russia, France and Britian. But guess who held the best cards in this great game ? Us. The Sikhs of Punjab. The object of the great game was to see who could gain control of the natural riches of persia. Russia, France and Britain realised that nobody could get a foothold without the support of the Sikhs. Great men from the 3 nations then would visit the Sikhs in Punjab and try and buy favours. The Sikhs would cleverly play with the minds of all 3 nations.

We Sikhs have proven ourselves historicaly of being able to play this game of media and diplomacy. We have before and we will again.

A free PUNJAB !!

>>Paji I salute your clear-cut hamdardhi to see our Qaum + Panth safe from our enemies ... but I respectfully disagree with you as to what our priorities should be in 2012. I genuinely believe that instead of raising say 10k for azad Punjab ... that the very same 10k can be much more beneficially deployed making the Sikh youth in Punjab mazbooth in their Sikhi to be able to withstand the temptations of drugs ... and to help the gareeb+downtrodden throughout India (regardless of their faith) and globally ... and combatting the proliferation of fake dera's + Sangat disunity amongst Sikhs through different Gurdwaras. Let's not give up the fight against oppression ... let's just fight it in a more intelligent, subtle and more results-orientated way. Obviously some say it's not possible to include Haryana in a new independent nation whilst others believe it can be despite 95% of the Jatts of Haryana like Sajjan Kumar being Hindu ... but do you perhaps see that we as Sikhs have the ability to aim for all of India in a longer term sense instead of restricting the message to 50,000 sq/km + thereby polarising the other 1.2billion to think that they can never join us?

>>Rabh Rakha WLS Paji + bhul chuk maaf ... i respect your position ... i hope you see that we are still very much on the same team to see our Panth flourish ... and I hate all the evil indian politicians + their goons who have escaped justice in India all these years just as much as you. I don't particularly give a stuff about the institutions of the central government in Delhi that have no respect for human rights for a wide spectrum of the Indian population (which is not limited to Sikhs ... as I really believe Sikhs are actually better off than hundreds of millions of innocent Hindu's in the wretchedly unjust state of India as it currently exists)

Khalsa Ji

The fundamental fact remains that as long as people have financial power then different groups will build their separate Gurdwaras.

>>I think all sections of Sikhs of the community in the West are reasonably set financially ... what we'd have to ensure in united Gurdwaray ... is that no section of the community gets to dominate the finances

I remember as a kid attending the one and only Gurdwara in our town where people from all backgrounds attended. It was a lovely cosy atmosphere , very family like. There were the Punjab migrants who were farmers , shoe makers , carpenters , merchanta etc.. But all attended and participated in the one Gurdwara Sahib.

>> That's what Sikhi is about (but the next generation certainly need to be generic Sikhs + the matrimonial generation need to choose their own partners as Sikhi guides us)

As time went by the Sikh community started becoming affluent and as such the farmers started throwing their weight around with the shoe makers and carpenters.

>>I agree with you and that makes me sad ... maybe those types ought to throw parties in honour of their brethren from Pakistan and Delhi who did what they did in 47+84. Those fools don't even realise Sajjan Kumar is a famous Jatt leader and that the main beneficiaries of Pakistan were Muslim Jatts that vastly increased their wealth by killing Sikhs from all backgrounds

These folk put up with the situation upto a certain point but eventually they parted company and built their own Gurdwaras.

>>I agree + only respect from the heart will join back our broken jigsaw

It's a shame because we have a multi million pound Gurdwara but no cosy family atmosphere anymore. The multimillion pound Gurdwara ia already experiencing financial problems whereas the other Gurdwaras are very successful. I feel that only financial pressure can change things. When the multimillion pound Gurdwaras become financially bankrupt then they will have to accommodate other members of the community or close down altogether.

>>No point us having fancy sites of worships like other faiths, just 1 simple Gurdwara or none ... and any Gurdwara that restricts membership on the basis of one's parents ... isn't much of a Gurdwara ... that's beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in of itself

Personally I would be happy to participate in Satsangat even in a tin shed as long as everybody was made to feel welcome and

comfortable with respect.

>>I couldn't have said it better myself Paji ... that is what the youth need to get across to the dinosaurs (a Giani I respect once said that the Guru's if they were here today would have melted the gold off Harmandir Sahib (that Ranjit Singh put on there after successive desecrations by Mughals to be fair to him) and used those funds for assisting the downtrodden in society because that is what Sikhi is about. We don't need no fancy stuff like the Muslims + Christians. Shame that we seem to be copying them.

We have bettered ourselves financially but distanced ourselves from the sidhants of Gursikhi , alas.

Paji this was an awesome post ... i had wanted PPP to do better than they did ... maybe they will have better luck in 2017 ... and to yourself brother keep doing what you're doing ... I salute you + hope God blesses with more strength for intellectual sewa. Everybody can do their bit. We all work. Paisa from honest work donated to helping those in need ... will one day begin to take the ground from under the feet of the oppressors in all nations. Universal education + stopping drugs/caste/splintering in Punjab will start to turn back the tide of oppression in terms of human rights and economic+educational equality

We can do it Paji. One day it's gana happen. The youth are already in support of this. Problem is the old timers crowd who came here from India control the Gurdwaray committees. But those stupid Bhangra records that promote caste affinity don't help things. And the Vienna business put us back as well. Shame that certain people don't know about Giani Ditt Singh ... when they accuse certain overtly united Gurdwaray as belonging to one section of the community

Yeah i know what u mean Balait da Sher ... but what if we end up with no station anyway due to the viewers not coming up with enough donations ... and is it morally right for us to spend 60k per month on 2 channels (when 30k on a merged channel would be enough) + when the surplus we could use to push the agenda of Sikhi which nine times out of ten translates as charitable assistance to the gareeb

Let's say each channel costs 80k a month to operate ... 2 channels = 160k per month ... via petition from the wider Sangat including the people on this forum ... i'd like to see 1 channel that costs the assumed 80k per month ... with the other 80k per month (=£1million a year) used for charitable purposes to help Sikhs and non-Sikhs that need help. I'm sure a lot of people agree with me so how best could we force a merger for the charitable reason alone. If nobody on the planet was hungry or denied an education or access to health then yeah i'm sure 2 channels wouldn't be a bad thing to introduce a bit more of a spectrum of views ... but right now I think there should be one channel ... and only we can pressure and petition to enforce the same.

Humkire Ji ... read your posts today and really uplifted by your thoughts. I salute you. However, as a Uk da mundah myself ... i think initially RebelSingh did not mean to say "mate" in any disrespectful way. That said RebelSingh if you address a changah GurSikh like humkire like you did do later in the thread ... well all i'll request (mate) is that u show a bit more "love" to fellow Sikhs. I was really humbled to read humkire Ji's posts.

That said I don't believe certain Sakhi-ah. Remember that some were introduced by the enemies of Sikhi to confuse the honest Sangat. Rely on the Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the true guide ... and try to take the spiritual meaning from a Sakhi (if you believe it) even if the facts are highly disputable ... in the spirit of Vasakhi ... please give humkire a cyber-handshake ... i honestly tell u (as a mate) that he's a changah Sikh from cares about our Dharam (just as much as you feel you do). Rabh Rakha

As long as we all strive to educate Sikh girls that a basis of Sikhi is equality between men + women whereas Islam openly gives lesser value to females and openly discriminates against women, the Muslims that seek financial reward per convert they get should be kept at bay.

If anything Sikh girls + boys equally should know that nobody worth their while would ever ask them to convert ... but i do wonder if Muslim girls have that spirit to ask guys to convert (why don't Sikh girls test a guy's devotion to them by insisting on the same, for example, with a change of name by deedpoll to Singh etc amongst other tests) ... and why in some cases Sikh guys are so spineless in the opposite (less common) scenario ... but thankfully those are isolated incidents involving weak individuals that have poor knowledge of supposedly their "own" faith

1stly West London Singh ... i thought all of us pronounced it with a V :-)

But more importantly let us spread the knowledge amongst Sikhs and non-Sikhs that ...

Four of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi's ... let us analyse their backgrounds and ask ourselves why 313 years later caste resonates amongst many in the community and what all of us on this site can do in our lives to destroy the caste system.

Let's also remember that there is no reason more Gujrati's, Dravidians and folks from Orissa can't join the Panth in the future ... because the Panth is about ParmAthma, justice + equality ... and a global spiritual nation.

Now that its 2012 ... let some amongst our community quit making comments about Hindu's given the ancestry of the Panj Pyaaray ... and for that matter does anybody agree that Brahminwaad or Brahminism should be deleted from our Panth's vocabulary given that those from that ancestry who were closest to Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji ... such as Bhai Mati Das & Bhai Sati Das ... can be an inspiration for all of India's Brahmins to join Sikhi and indeed the Khalsa Panth

>>To RebelSingh ... in November 1984 i as a child became pro-Khalistan. However in 2012 with Dr Manmohan Singh as Prime Minister of India, Sikhs at highest levels for India re the UN + Indian Army, a majortity of Sikh MP's + MLA's in Punjab at present ... i believe to work on Khalsa Raj as a concept is more important ... having said that if the current state of Punjab became Khalistan peacefully then I don't really think many Sikhs would oppose that (on the assumption that corruption, drug use and caste hegemony lessened in such a scenario + that a more just society was ushered in thereafter in Punjab).

Well the common thing is coz they dont understand the following things (in my crappy opinion):

1)Panjab/Sikhs were/was/is of a seperate country before british annexed it (and we wud like it back)

>>Absolutely correct, I don't think anybody will argue with you too much on the first part that's not in brackets

2)They dont understand the lies told 2 sikhs by nehru/gandhi, and how sikhs cudda had khalistan in 47', but were sold out by "our" leaders

>>Nehru may have lied, i'm not so sure Gandhi did in the sense of opposing Sikhs. Certainly Sikhs were sold out by our leaders to an extent ... but at the same time ... when Sikhs were a minority in Punjab ... our leaders playing hand was a bit weak due to population demographics ... but look that was 1947 ... let's look to 2012 and beyond (rather than strictly through the prism of 1984 ... which of course doesn't mean we should forget 84 or not continue to strive for justice/support for the victims)

3)They dont understand panjab has been bullied and discriminated since 47'

>>I think an overwhelming majority of Sikhs do understand that. I even think a majority of decent Hindu's acknowledge that

4)They dont know that Indian Govt was planning 2 invade Harmandir Sahib TWO yrs b4 it happened, n jus think that bhindrawale was a "terrorist" coz he had weapons inside there (So did Guru Hargobind)!

>>I think most Sikhs realise that Sikhs were "set up" from the get go by Indira on the whole Bluestar+Khalistan idea itself. An overwhelming majority of Sikhs never took Khalistan (coined by Congress) seriously until the unfortunate events of 84

5)They think it wont survive, coz it doesnt have coastal/sea ports (NEITHER DID MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH, IDIOTS), but there r various khalistan maps drawn up (look below)

>>Sea access is not necassary for a nation to function, several landlocked countries prove that ... however, let's get real with the maps ... the only place Khalistan can realistically be achieved (peacefully+democratically) is in areas of Sikh majority ... that would mean that a new Khalistan would in all likelihood not even include all of the current territory in the state of Punjab.

6)THIS IS FUNNIEST ONE - It WONT have a military 2 cope with pakistans invasion! LOL!! i aint even gonna go here, such is the dumb nature of the question! (But read the statement below)

http://storerooom.wo...e-mighty-sikhs/

>>Yep i'll ignore that point as well (though it does sadden me that Pakistan has a population around 7 times larger than the state of Punjab ... and a land area eighteen bigger than Punjab state)

7)They think ALL non believers (hindus/christians/muslims) will be removed from our lands! When in history (apart from partition) did we EVER EVER ethincally cleanse ppl out of our hoods'?

>>Very true. I'm not pro-Khalistan but I always support the right for my Sikh brothers that support the concept along peaceful lines to have the freedom to voice their opinion. To malign Khalistan by saying minorities would be ethnically cleansed is like judging Sikhs on the standards set by other folks in Delhi etc in 1984

8) Khalistan wud be poor economically coz india will "refuse" 2 trade with us?!? Well 400m ppl in india live below poverty line, is it me, or wud khalistan (with its beautiful food producin lands) actually call the shots on the price, not its starvin neighbours.

>>Agreed, I think mr rizzo (sorry i got your handle wrong bro :-) had brilliant points and with whom i mostly agree ... but Punjab would certainly be economical viable.

http://www.sikhiwiki...f_Khalistan.jpg - This is the most likely Map of khalistan (Panjab/haryana/Himachal/Northern parts rajastan)

>>Himachal + Haryana will never willingly agree to be part of Khalistan. I mean Nankana Sahib is hardly gana be inside any Khalistan so no point including the Sikh-hating Jatts like Sajjan Kumar inside Khalistan maps. Those maps are totally fanciful+unrealistic

http://republicofkha...RONT%20copy.jpg - This is one that i like, but unlikely (includes jammu/gang doab?/western Gujarat/Rajastan)

(I apologise if i dont come across intellectual, im jus a person whos still learning)

>>In conclusion bro, I believe we need to eradicate drug use amongst the young, eliminate the concept of caste within Sikh minds + look at turning all of India into a spiritual-leaning Khalistan as a pre-cursor to Global Khalsa Raj. Now I don't mean a Sikh Empire bigger than the British one ... but a world where there is justice and equality for all ... in such a world the Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message would flourish most.