UKLondonSikh

Its a deity if your relation is all about mehar and based on pure emotion wherein most of the time you are imploring guru to fulfil your wishes.

Its a Guru (literally - dispeller of darkness) - if you study it , contemplate (sabsai upar gur shabad beechar) on it and try to incorporate the teachings in your day to day lives.

Share your thoughts !

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

You are right and it's shame that the vast majority of the population see the GGS as a deity and a wish fulfilling machine. GGS is not here for us to fulfill our wishes it is here for us to lose our egos and follow hukam.

UKL = Agreed Paji

I disagree with you on this point. The Guru is my guide, my teacher, to help me try to understand Waheguru. The light of Waheguru shines through our Guru,

but I do not worship Guru Ji, I worship Waheguru - Guru Nanak strictly condemned worship of anything other than the formless Almighty.

That's my view anyway.

UKL = I agree with you Paji

When I read passages about the Guru "being" God, I believe that means the Gurus have the light of God. Equally, so do we all, as God is everything and pervades all matter and the universe, but the Gurus were on such a high spiritual enlightenment and had such a deep connection with Waheguru that they could guide the rest of us.

It's a very deep, complex issue, but I personally don't like to say the Gurus "are" God, because then people take that to mean Gurus are incarnations of God, and that limits perception of the almighty to just one physical entity. That's a concept which Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected - God does not come down to Earth as incarnations (Ram, Krishna etc), but we are all part of God.

UKL = Agree with you Paji

Have a read of this, it's an ebook of bhai randhir singh taking on a christian in a discussion about guru granth sahib being an idol and diety. So it might be relevant to the discussion

http://www.vidhia.com/Bhai%20Randheer%20Singh%20Ji/Is-bowing-to-Guru-Granth-Sahib-Ji-akin-to-idol-worship.pdf

Btw brushing your teeth, taking a bath, washing your hand are all rituals. They have deeper meanings behind them, sikhi doesn't reject rituals it rejects blind rituals- things which have no phaal or fruit or any spiritual merit like throwing an idol in the river or throwing water backwards, or kissing the black stone of mecca, or throwing stones at the devil represented in mecca, or bowing to the pagan temple kaba. Guru shows the true path of bhakti is in the heart that god resides within that. If we are going to equate nitnem to lipservice then you got to realize the power of gurbani as it is to other man made books.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਇਫਤਰਾ ਭਾਈ ਦਿਲ ਕਾ ਫਿਕਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe,

O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety

of the heart. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 727)

UKL = Good point Paji

Veerji imho the Shabad should be the real guru - the guide , the teacher , the dispeller of darkness - not the saroop

Bani also says - "devi deva poojiye kya mango kya dey" .

UKL = 100% agree with you. Shabad Bani is our true Guru without a doubt.

Suppose i am unlettered man and is not able to read SGGS ji. Am i debarred from God realization?

UKL = Absolutely not Bhai Sahib. Sikhi is universal and for the illiterate as well as the literate. Gurbani can vocally be heard by the illiterate as well and thus we will often find more dedication to Sikhi amongst the illiterate than amongst the so-called educated classes.

Gur-Man-Tar

Man=Mind.

Tar=Tool

Why a tool ??

How does One steady their mind and stop following their thoughts ?

Well, I certainly need a Tool to help me with this and mine is the Gurmantar-Waheguru !

UKL = But Lucky Singh Paji it is strongly believed by many that Naam Simran must be accompanied by practical action towards Sarbat Da Bhala in order to avoid it becoming a modern day ritual. Spiritual attainments surely only accompany practical action, would you not agree Paji?

I think you misunderstood the point of his post, he was saying that by repeating something blindly with no good faith or intentions, you won't get anywhere.

Nothing wrong with rituals, as long as they're not blind; they should serve a purpose, i.e. to better oneself, help the panth, and improve society.

UKL = 100% agree with you Sunny Paji

Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not God.

The first thing Sikhs read every morning is the Mool Mantar and it is very clear that Ik Oankar is "without form".

Ik Oankar is not a physical object which can bee seen with the eyes, neither the Guru Granth Sahib nor the 10 Gurus which came before it were God- God-conscious beings, certainly, but not God.

That is my understanding

UKL = I agree with you Aman Singh. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj were not their own prayers to themself as Mool Mantar clarifies clearly.

Incarnations? Really?

The Mool Mantar also mentions how Ik Oankar is "Ajooni"= without births and deaths, which kinda makes that argument impossible. There is no concept of incarnations in Sikhi because God is not born and God does not pass away. If the Gurus were God-incarnates, then why not Jesus Christ?

UKL = Paji it's ironic since our Guru Sahib wholeheartedly rejected Jesus, Krishna and Ram being Avtars of God that Vedc influences have seen certain Sikhs copy the Christians and Hindu's in this avtar-hood game when Shabad Bani (Guru) is supreme Truth.

But the Gurus always told us never to worship them, and that Akaal Purakh is formless. If you wanna say Guru is God, then we're all God, in the sense that Waheguru is all-pervading and everything and everywhere. The Gurus achieved the ultimate level of realisation of Truth and Naam, and taught us how to work towards doing the same. This passage from the SikhiWiki website sums it up nicely:

"

He is the teacher who shows the way. He is not an intercessor, but an exemplar and guide. He is no avatar or God’s incarnation, but it is through him that God instructs men. He is the perfectly realized soul; at the same time, he is capable of leading the believers to the highest state of spiritual enlightenment.

The Guru has been called the ladder or the rowboat by means of which one reaches God. He is the revealer of God’s word. Through him God’s word, sabda, enters human history. The Guru is the voice of God, the Divine self-revelation. Man turns to the Guru for instruction because of his wisdom and his moral piety. He indicates the path to liberation.

It is the Guru who brings the love and nature of God to the believer. It is he who brings that grace of God by which haumai or egoity is mastered. The Guru is witness to God’s love of His creation. He is God’s hukam, i.e. Will, made concrete."

UKL = Agree with you Sunny Paji

Whats the difference b/w saroop of sggs and the pdf version ?

To me there is no difference , yes I don't do chavar or prakash/sukhasan of my laptop but I try to read as much as I can along with translations - but in the end its the same Shabad guru - physical saroop or pdf , IMHO key is to incorporate the lessons in our day to day life - taki " halat palat mukh ujjal hoye " - we are saved in this life and hereafter.

Share your thoughts

UKL = I agree with you Paji and given the Beadbi of Maharaj online, i think we need to keep cooler heads in instances of physical beadbi of saroops ... as it was pointless for three Gursikhs serve out decades rotting in jail over that Pakhandi Sadh in Rajasthan Surajmani ... when they could have more constructively help the Qaum by being active and free to tackle abortion clinics, drug and alcohol peddlars as well as those that discriminate in Punjab or those bureaucrats that do not help our Panth's children gain an adequate education.

UKL = Shamshere Paji i respect your interpretation but I'm just going to put below yours my interpretations.

UKL = Obviously we have our own interpretations as brothers within one Panth.

Sher = I've started reading bani for the first time ever. So far I can see the following messages are repeated:

Sher = Remember god through naam simran.

UKL = Whereby Naam Simran must be accompanied by practical action thereafter to achieve Sarbat Da Bhala.

Sher = Everything is preordained by god and we are not in control of our fate, we only receive liberation when he wants us to.

UKL = Everything that humans have the power to change is within our hands ... we control our own destiny to a great extent ... we only receive liberation through God's blessing (as opposed to God singling out Shamshere for liberation as opposed to Ramesh or Abdul)

Sher = Don't love your parents, wife, children, only love god.

UKL = Parents, wife and children are moh maya and cannot come before God. One who loves God will automatically treat their parents, wife, children correctly (with love for all)

Sher = It everything is preordained then why bother with anything? You can take the attitude - 'if it's going to happen it will happen'

UKL = To me Sikhi is clear cut that hardly anything is pre-ordained and that which may be can be re-written via our own efforts and prayers.

Sher = Not loving your family sounds a bit cold, why bother caring for your family?

UKL = A person that puts their family before God can be selfish. Whereas one who puts God first will think of Sarbat Da Bhala (and thus their family won't lose out anyway).

Sher = Do we have free will?

UKL = Absolutely we do and I believe Gurbani is clear about that.

Sher = Or is our destiny truly written on our forehead?

UKL = Metaphorically it may be. However, our actions influence our destiny in this life. The Genocide of Sikhs in 1947 and 1984 was not written by God.

UKL = But we accept all that happens as being part of Hukam nevertheless in a spiritual sense. But God can't be blamed for Islam and Indira Gandhi.

Great analysis!!!! Make perfect sense to me, and now I understand where many Hindus are coming from.

UKL = Excellent and very deep points made by Mehtab Singh Paji. But I think we shouldn't look at Hindu's from the lens that Mehtab Singh Ji is suggesting. We need to look at every so-called Hindu as a future Sikh and try by all means to delcassify them as Hindu and include them within the Sikh Panth. That way we weaken our bureaucratic opponents political base whilst strengthening our own. As the RSS philosophy has cleverly been to define as many people as possible (including Sikhs) as Hindu's whilst defining who is a Sikh to as small a section of the population as possible. And we've been neaive enough to fall for it. So we need to turn the tables and look at every avenue of turning so-called Hindu's into members of the Sikh Panth (regardless of if they keep kes or not). Once more people feel welcome in the Sikh Panth the more Amritdhari GurSikhs we will see in due course.

UKL = If we do more seva and parchaar and Langar provision ... then all of present day India ... can become Khalistan by virtue of being a majority Sikh state.

A very bitter truth indeed, this is also the history of ancestors of Sikhs as majority of Sikhs are from Punjab, India . Our ancestors related to and believed these stories. In paragraph 9 you state 'educated Hindus' question these stories and from your writing you give them props, but how do you feel about missionaries who Hindus would consider educated Sikhs who do not believe 'stories' about our history, Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji, 1699 Vaisakhi etc. Don't belittle other dharms itihass. Also there is no shortage of gaddars in Sikh history.

UKL = Gurds Singh Paji ... we don't need to believe in or respect something just because our ancestors did. I don't believe in any miracles relating to Sikhi because I believe our Guru Sahiban wholeheartedly rejected miracles. When tens of millions of people were slaughtered in Genocides in the last century there was no miracle to save them, so it's pretty fanciful for us to believe in virgin births, monkey gods or Arab slavetraders splitting the moon. Ask yourself this who is worthy of more respect ... a torso that fights with decapitated head ... or a Mahapursh Shaheed that despite a grevious neck wound the was losing blood fought to the very end so long as they could utter "Bole So Nihal - Sat Sri Akaal". As for 1699, if the blood on Guru Sahib's was those of the rotten masands does that make the bravery of our Panj Pyaaray any less? I humbly suggest to you that it doesn't. There are no gaddars that we look up to as religious figures as Sikhs.

pakistani khstriyeh v mildeh ah..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Khatris

UKL = Shaastar Paji the Muslim Khatri's (such as the Chinioti Shaikhs) de facto control much of Pakistani Punjab's industry

When Hindus say it was immoral for Satwant Singh and Beant Singh for breaking their duty of being a bodyguard and assassinating the Dushtni Indira Gandhi, then they are also condemning Arjun(and Krishna) for breaking the rules of war(and Kshatrya tradition) by assassinating Bhishma, Dronachya, Karan while they were unarmed.

UKL = As usual, you're absolutely right Jonny Paji. All of the population of present day India should respect Shaheed Bhai Beant Singh and Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh as Desh Bhagats of the highest order. Our Shaheeds sacrificed their lives for the raksha of innocent civilans. Sadly Congress still managed to implement much of their Genocidal plans upon our Qaum.

I am not sure how you say this. Rishi Ved Vyas father was Rishi Prashar, who was a Brahmin, and mother Satyvati who was the daughter of a Fisherman. If you classify the caste by father's caste, then Rishi Ved Vyas was a Brahmin Rishi.

Important point though - None of these Rishis were HINDUS, all these Rishis highly respectful, were Brahmn Gyanis, and had devotion to 1 GOD, as even shown in serials, such as OM Naam Simran, and not Poojan of Devi-Devtas, a concept in which a new Devi-Devta is invented daily, sych as Maa Kheer Bhawani, Devi Halwa Poori, Maa Chintapoorni, Maa SukhDataDevi etc.

UK = Khalsa Ji you're absolutely that Valmiki was a Brahmin (who is used as a ploy by our Panth's enemies to stop wider knowledge spreading in India of who exactly Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji was) and Vyas is always accepted as a Brahmin ... though similar to the Valmiki ploy ... has recently been coined off as non-Brahmin by clever Hindutva forces who recognise him as Brahmin amongst their own ... but utilise the fisherman connection to appeal to Dalits that they are "Hindu" (when in fact all Dalits are natural born Sikhs if only they knew).

It's not strange at all bhaji.

Now, go one step further. Ask the same 1% minority Sikh jat, " 'ere mate, you're a jatt Sikh , so what d' you know about jatt muslims ".

UKL = Great point as always Jashb Paji ... and I think we as Sikhs constantly need to ram home the message to members of our Panth that 80% of Jatts are proud Muslims and Hindu's such as the 1st Prime Minister of Pakistan and marauding 1947 mobs that killed 20% of our Qaum in Pakistan and others like Sajjan Kumar and the Delhi Police Jatts who played such an active role in killing Sikhs in 1984. That's why apartheid biraderi mentality within the Panth cannot be tolerated from any sections that participate in it and united saanjhe Gurdware in London, the Diaspora and especially Punjab are an absolute must if we hope for our Panth to ever progress.

Great shout Inderjit Singh for posting this.

We need Bhai Sahib to continue the struggle so I to would be happy if he stopped the hunger strike. What should happen is that Badal and the leaders of ALL Jathabandis , Sants , Babas should pledge that they will follow concrete proposals to help victims of the Genocide. They should pledge this publicly at the Akal Takht in front of the Guru Granth Sahib.

UKL = Exactly Paji. Everyone in the Panth wholeheartedly supports Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa's sacrifice and commitment for the Panth via the medium he has taken. But what he can achieve alive and active in the next 30 years imho is far far more than he can achieve as a Shaheed. Watching his speeches on TV i'm just amazed at his physical condition and strength and alertness. But I think we need to draw a line in the sand after Bhai Sahib reaches Sri Akal Takht Sahib that no Gursikh will ever fast and potentially risk their life in this manner, when we need years and years of active Dharam Yudh from all dedicated Dharam Sewaks to roll back the effects of the last 30 years of Genocide.

UKL = The prisoners issue is about straightforward justice and must be pursued but we cannot lose sight of the fact that illiteracy, drugs, female infanticide, biraderi controlled golaks and alcohol are killing or destroying millions of Sikhs lives as opposed to the lesser numbers of our innocent long-suffering political prisoners and their families. All of the Unity we have right now has to be channelled on attacking those modern day channels of our ongoing Genocide. I don't think we need pledges from people who are not seeing the bigger picture in terms of where our Qaum is today compared to 30 years ago ... we just have to play our own part and get everyone we know on the same agenda for total upliftment of the Panth (rather than just our innocent prisoners). It was Sangat pressure that finally got the main so-called Sant Baba's at Gurdwara Amb Sahib at the last minute as Sant Samaj knew they were losing credibility and had to save face so I think most ordinary Sangat can see that pledges from those who didn't care in the early stages might not be too wholehearted.

Shaheed Bhai Beant Singh restored the fallen turban of the Sikh nation to full glory when he assassinated Indira Gandhi on this day in 1984.

I was watching his son, Sarbjit Singh on Akaal Channel on 30th October. Both he and Ravi Singh from Khalsa Aid didn't hold back when criticising so-called panthic jathebandi's. Sarbjit Singh said that at the time of his father's death, Damdami Taksal announced in the press they would financially support his family with tuition fee's for school etc. One year later, upon collecting money from Mehta, they were told there is no more money coming! As Ravi Singh said, we (Sikhs) are ready to buy a car for so-called preachers who come from India, who haven't given any shaheedi. Yet someone who restored our turban back on our head, his son has to struggle to get menial jobs in Australia. Why aren't we helping people like Sarbjit Singh or indeed other shaheed families? Our priorities are totally misplaced.

Mahaan smagams are all well and good, but is that what the shaheed families want? Entrepreneurial Sikhs should invest in Panjab to provide employment for these descendents of great shaheeds. Otherwise, it's just all hot air.

It'll put a few noses out of joint, but sometimes its just got to be said.

UK = Well said DM Singh. Not just the Sikh Qaum - one day the whole of India should recognise our Mahaan Shaheeds for sacrificing their own lives to avoid further bloodshed and Genocide of the innocent in the way Indira and Congress at that time had planned. Personally I believe IGI airport should be renamed in their honour - but the only way we will achieve that is by explaining to more so-called Hindu's what Gurbani is, what it means and what it stands for in terms of the transformation for justice and equality Sikhi can bring to society.

Mahan Shaheeds of Sikh Nation: Sardat Beant Singh ji, Sardar Satwant Singh ji, and Sardar Kehar Singh ji. I agree we are giving money to so-called preachers and not to the Shaheed families. I hope we can change this.

UK = Well said acsap Paji

Bhai Beant Singh jees wife was brought back to punjab with huge support of sikh sangat and she was even elected as MLA. She passed away due by electric shock from washing machine. Anyway my main point is that Bhai Beant Singh jee did what people like me couldn't do it. Sikh Sangataan did what they could do to parivaars of such family and somehow kin of such prestige souls should not depend on others for long time. I am extremely sorry if i offended anyone but i wanted to clear that Sangataan did support such parivaars.

What i really want to see is schools or buildings named after these three mahan shaheeds of kaum.

UK = Singh4Peace Paji ... Bibi Bimal Kaur Khalsa was killed by the central government (it was no random accident). I agree with you that the kin of our shaheeds should not sponge off the Qaum - but equally we must not allow them to go without support (which has often happened and which Khalsa Aid and others have highlighted). The success of Sikhi outside of Punjab will be measured by how many schools we see named after these three Mahaan Shaheeds in Delhi within 20-40years. The drugs connection is a familiar RSS refrain. They blame the Sikhs in the widows colony for being on drugs and they blame the sons of our Shaheeds for being on drugs (often falsely to malign them) because in RSS ruled India the rapist is never at fault - the blame always lies with the rape victim.

Anyways, he said that the only 'wrongdoing' Bhai Kehar Singh Jee did was inspire/convince either Bhai Beant Singh Jee or Bhai Satwant Singh Jee (I forgot which one) to take Khandey Di Pahul.

So the whole case against him was based on that.

For a Sikh to inspire another to take Amrit is a crime and viewed as terrorist activity in some parts of this world.

UK = DSGj bir'ay I believe Bhai Kehar Singh Ji was actually instrumental in both Bhai Beant Singh Ji (his relative) and Bhai Satwant Singh Ji's journeys deeper towards the Khalsa Panth and the Khalsa ethos of self-sacrifice for the greater good of humanity.

Again false propaganda, bullying and lies.

You're the missionary and anti-Sikh agent, not me.

UK = DSG Paji ..All Paji was saying is that because you have misgivings that part of what is collectively termed SG nowadays was not written by Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj many will assume that it makes you DSGj an anti-Sikh agent. My viewpoint on another subject has always been the direct opposite of yours. But you know what, even if I disagree with 100% on that, your passion for Sikhi shines through. So why not all of us debate academic issues with pyaar and focus repeatedly on what unites us in the agenda to achieve Panth ki Jeet? The outside haters seek to divide our Panth and looking at multiple village Gurdware our enemies are doing a very successful job. But all of us from all shades of the spectrum that see the prem for Sikhi in another need to unite ... given that in the Census of 2021 our enemies aim to make us a minority in East Punjab. When tyres and kerosone to effect Genocide against the Sikh Qaum nobody really bothered to check the intracies of each individual Shaheed's belief. That sums it up as to why we need to continually see that we are all on the same side as often as possible - even though we have our full rights on each other to debate academically with pyaar where we see one agenda as better for progress of the Panth than another.

In the spiritual sense Lucky Paji is absolutely right ... that very limited are the numbers of those true blessed (Gur)Sikhs ... but in the cold hard political landscape (where population demographics matter) that has forced our Qaum to endure repeated Genocides at the hands of our enemies ... we need to widen what a Sikh means to encompass as many decent people as possible and thereby simultaneously reduce the political base of our Panth's enemies.

At a stroke the vasty majority of so-called Hindu Punjabi's, Sindhi's, Satnami's, Kabirpanthi's, Jatavs, Vanjara's and many Adivasi tribes and Dalits that previously took to Sikhi prior to 1947 would all be re-integrated into a stronger and more diverse Panth (which would be less parochial and less inward looking and would thus look at the bigger global agenda for seva more with its greater collective power to fight in the best way possible for Sarbat Da Bhala).

That would mean re-instituting the general Puratan definition of a Sikh as being anyone who bows before Maharaj.

UKL = ... Continuing on (after a technology glitch) ... the 1% land area I was referring to was Majha and Malwa as currently Doaba is entirely lost from the "cause" with so-called Hindu's the majority of the Doaba population nowadays with the likely current assumption that they would very much vote as the Punjabi speaking folks in Kangra district (Himachal) did during the Punjabi Suba movement.

UKL = As you rightly say Paji:

jashb = The biggest revenge on these racist RSS types would be to liberate the majority inhabitants of not just India but also Waheguru's entire green earth from every form of racist, oppressive, totalitarianist ideology.

jashb = Yes - that includes the racism, oppression and totalitarianism inherent in the Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity of those respective scriptures, besides countless others!!!

jashb = Now that truly would be the biggest and best answer to 1984!!!

UKL = Sikhi, Sarbat da Bhala, Kirat Karna, Naam Japna, Vand Shakna are the ONLY true solution to all the injustice this world has to offer and quite clearly the agenda for global justice (Begumpura everywhere) can only be achieved via Global Khalsa Raj with Sarbat Da Bhala as its guiding motto. Only a global Khalsa Fauj of millions (amongst the seven billion on the planet) can prevent future repeats of Genocides like our own, of the Jews, of Tutsi's in Rwanda, of innocent people in DR Congo and the tens of millions of Africans that the Christians and Muslims enslaved and raped (which to a degree the believers in Manu Smriti managed to copy in India). But in order to get to that global vision we need to eradicate our own community's issues in relation to alcohol, drugs, infanticide, illiteracy and biraderi cancer first.

VJKK VJKF

^ Jashb Paji you absolutely hit the nail on the head above. Many of us, for understandable reasons, restrict our vision to around about 1% of the area currently controlled by the terrorist central authority of India ... namely those areas of Punjab, in which if there ever was a refereferundum as is to be held in Scotland next year, we could conceivably imagine a majority voting for freedom from terrorist puppet masters in Delhi.

Can anybody inform me what Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji lies about in the following:

UK = Jash Bir'ay more great posts by yourself yet again. However, I'm going to selectively pick out some parts where I think a different strategy to yours may be more fruitful for Panth Ki Jeet in the long term:

Nalwa Ji, you have once again spoken the painful, sharp and bitter truth.

I myself was ashamed that I knew so much about the all-out genocide of the Sikh Nation in 1984 and the resultant ongoing struggle for freedom from despotic India... yet so little about the unimaginably horrendously painful 20-year-long struggle for a basic Punjabi Suba from just one generation before!

Yes - just for a basic Punjabi Suba!

A Punjabi speaking state in line with the linguistic reorganisation of all state boundaries throughout India in the 1950's - not even full independence from despotic India!

The unnecessarily arduously long struggle for Punjabi Suba was simply a demand that the central government honour its own law and implement the local language (in this case, Panjaabi) as the state language - just like it did throughout 95% of India in the 1950's.

The same Panjaabi language that is spoken by a majority of Muslims and Hindus! Not Sikhs alone.

The struggle for Punjabi Suba had nothing to do with Sikhs or Sikhi.

Yet, that is still how communal, biased, terrorist India portrays it to this day.


When even the secular demand for Punjabi Suba is portrayed as a secessionist demand and conspired against in a mass campaign of anti-Sikh violence and hatred by the majority Hindus, what hope is there of Sikhs ever breathing the fresh air of independence, that they were originally promised, in a terrorist Hindu ruled India???


The stiff opposition to Punjabi Suba demonstrates fully that India truly is The World's Largest Hypocrisy.

India had no problem granting state language status to languages like Marathi, Tamil, Hindi, Gujarati, Telugu.

But when it came to Panjaabi, oh no... We can't do anything that the Sikhs might want to happen or benefit from, oh no...

And so, Punjab was the only state in India that did not receive its local language as the state language.


All just to spite the Sikhs.

In fact; it was the Traitor Punjabi Hindus who went all out to oppose Punjabi Suba and even disowned the Panjabi language that they spoke in their own homes just to spite the Sikhs.

UK = Jashb i 100% agree with you that essentially these Jan Sangh sycophants were traitors but we must realise our own role in them seeing their identity as Hindu. Had we accepted all Gurdwara goers firmly within the Sikh fold with sincerity and pyaar for these urban types than more of them would have declared the correct answer to the language question and more of them would be GurSikhs that make us proud like Mehtab Singh Paji.

Yet when Sikhs rightly demand independence now that the 300,000+ of our Quam killed in cold blood by Terrorist India has proven that there is absolutely no chance that we can ever exist in peace in a Hindu ruled nation - these same separatist, racist and communal North Indian Hindus call us communal.

The irony is lost on those animals.

UK = Agreed. But because Hindu currently refers to over a billion people we need to be very selective in who we target whilst not losing sight of the fact that the innocent 95% majority of Hindu's who are themselves oppressed and do not fundamentally bear any ill will towards Sikh are future Sikhs (just as the four non-Punjabi's from among the Panj Pyaaray proved to be)

All in return for the generosity, kindness, charity and patriotism of the Sikh Nation in first freeing India from British rule, then securing Hindu rule by single handedly defeating Pakistan in every war that India has faced, when the non-Sikh regiments ran away and retreated from the battlefield, and then feeding and ensuring the food security of the entire poor hungry nation of India by turning it from a food deficit to a food surplus nation.

UK = 100% correct Paji

Thanks a lot, to my Hindu "brothers".

UK = This is where I disagree slightly though Paji. We cannot seriously blame the 550million Hindu males in India for the terrorist crimes of the elite from Delhi in 1984 and the ten years or so therafter. We have to smash this monolithic definition of Hindu's (that the RSS and Congress seek to reinforce). Thus all Dalits are automatically non-Hindu's and natural sehajdhari Sikhs at the very least. All those of so-called Hindu parentage that work for Sarbat Da Bhala we have to see as natural allies in this war against Hindutva (as opposed to the blanket term of Hindu's). All innocent Hindu's are natural future Sikhs if only we can get the message out to them with pyaar, with increased translation/seva/parchaar in local languages+areas and with acceptance of the realistic reality that we need one hundred sehajdhari's for every new true Amritdhari to arise.

Nalwa Ji, you are absolutely right that the same anti-Sikh hatred that reared its ugly head in 1984 has always been present in the main body of the North Indian Hindus since well before 1947!

And you are absolutely spot on correct that too many Sikhs (and non-Sikhs) today ignore this fact, and focus singularly on 1984 as if it is an exclusive event.

I have not watched the above video.

But it was you who opened my eyes to the brazen abuse of the Sikh Quam by the majority North Indian Hindus when you highlighted the major struggle of Master Tara Singh Ji against the institutionalised racism of the North Indian Hindus.

It is only then when I researched Master Ji's life independently that I realised the gross misrepresentation of Master Ji's life and struggle that has occurred. We are taught to accept that Master Ji was Hindu by birth, so "he was bound to favour the Hindus" - but this unfair accusation simply isn't true when weighed up against the evidence.

It is to you that I credit having my ignorant eyes opened.


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Hatred for Sikhs is something that is deep set in Hindu revivalist ideology, which forms the foundation of modern (post-Arya Samaj) North Indian Hindu religious identity.

Like you correctly identify - it wasn't merely some spontaneous eruption of anger against Sikhs that happened in 1984, "building up for months" as some hopelessly uninformed journalists would have you believe.

Nor was this anti-Sikh hatred merely rooted in the gross betrayal of the Sikh Nation by the majority beneficiaries (the Hindus) during the period 1849-1947 A.D.

No.

This hatred for Sikhs and the fresh, unconstrained egalitarian Sikh ideology has its origins firmly rooted over 500+ years ago in Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's beautiful rejection of the mighty, goliathan, Brahmanical, castist, oppressive "sacred thread".

A small strand of radical North Indian Hindus, the parents of the late Arya Samaji North Indian Hindu revivalist movement, which itself gave birth to modern day Saffron Terrorism (in the form of the rightly beleagured RSS)...

have had the full evil of their eyes trained on the fledgling faith of Dhan Baba Nanak ever since that amazingly courageous, righteous and fearless act of revolution on that blessed day around 1480 A.D.


Unfortunately, it is with deep sadness and regret that I must admit that that original small strand of radical North Indian Hindus, is now the outright majority within the North Indian Hindu political, social, and economic arena.

It is this ideology (put simply, the RSS) that will never allow the Sikhs to breathe in peace.

It is this ideology, that suppressed the ordinary Hindu, that our Gurus fought against - not the petty foot North Indian Hindu soldiers that are sacrificing themselves on the unholy altar of a Brahmanism that treats them like cheap canon fodder.

We have forgotten the true fight of our Gurus - and have accepted the Indian Government's myth that our Gurus only fought against Mughal Islam - when that is plainly not the case.


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History serves as a reminder to our true origin.

Our fight is against the ideology - not the man.

We must not forget the true fight of our Gurus - against corrupt ideologies.

We must carry the fight forward.

May the lamp of enlightenment keep dispelling the darkness of ignorance and stay ever burning bright.


RAAJ KAREGA KHALSA

KHALISTAN ZINDABAAD!!!

UK = Again Paji i agree with much of what you say above. I would suggest, however, that our Hindutva oppenents are primarily limited to elite politically powerful minorities within the main so-called "forward" castes (primarly 30% Brahmins, 30% Rajputs/Jatts, 30% Bania's). I estimate that the core Hindutva support is limited to no more than 5% of the so-called Hindu population within India as the majority of even the 5crore Brahmins themselves live in poverty ... as where innocent Brahmins encounter Sikhi they often historically turn to it as we see demographically in Jammu and areas like Joshi Matt in Uttarakhand near famous Gurdware in the vicinity. Nevertheless those monetarily+politically influential minority elements within the three main so-called forward castes that have a vested interest in Indian society remaining a fertile breeding ground for corruption via their use of divide and rule and discrimatory policies do openly despise and hate Sikhi and musters the political will behind that by making natural non-Hindu's such as Dalits, Tamils etc imagine that they are part of this mythical "Hindu" family ... it's up to us as Sikhs to play our part stop this trend and encompass as many as we can within the Sikh Panth in response as a united block working for Sarbat Da Bhala and an end to terrorism and corruption operated from Delhi since 1947. Until we get the numbers demographically and control of alcohol, drugs, illiteracy, cancer, infanticide, poverty and jaath-paath within East Punjab ... I believe slogans for freedom will achieve very little ... and simply assist our Hindutva enemies to portray their terrorism and Genocide as a us (Sikh) versus them (Hindu) situation whereby everyone without kes should supposedly support the terrorist Hindutva cause.

Well Bhaji, concentrate on the things you agree with, and keep your nose out of the things you dont agree with. simples.

see above. spend where you think it will benefit the panth, and let others spend where they think will benefit.

UK = 100% agree with u Paji. Yep if some would like to focus on preserving the bricks and mortar on Maharajah Ranjit Singh's samadhi ... whilst others believe that drugs, illiteracy and poverty in East Punjab are more important priorities ... there is room for both strands of opinion within the Sikh Panth ... *DELETED* ... our Qaum can and will be unstoppable. VJKK VJKF

bro i dont know much about what charitrokpahyan is but this much iv seen, Having encountered the NF BNP c18 then a few pps

life teaches me conflict resolution helps where mans mind easily divides off. We must unite wherever we can cutting across boundaries.

When i was young i used to ask myself when will this hell end? One of our schoolfriends Pritpal lost his father in an unsolved murder that rumoured to have involved 15 hockey stick weilding Nf bootboys. Will white black unite? They somewhat later did.

When the Mirpuris had kick offs with apneh it hurt everytime we heard of innocent folk being hurt ( whatever side). That died down even enemies somewhat became friends. And Now we got this internal crap, that has the potential to turn folk from the same Religion against each other.

We have a zumedari to our future kids. Do not let a shia sunni style divide enter even our minds. Whatever goes on in the world just keep our thoughts simple in gurdwara. One Singh I met 15 years ago told me His father does not believe in Dasam Granth nor does he, but his Chacha did. They accepted that each diverse belief will not affect their kinship.

UK = 100% agree with you Shaastar Bir'ay. Both sides of the debate have total reverence for Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj so that should stop all hatred and division right there. Let us all just agree to disagree respectfully on matters of academic debate and focus our united efforts towards ending illiteracy, female infanticide, drugs, alcohol, cancer and poverty in Punjab as a start of Panth ki Jeeth.

I have heard that he was the one to turn down Dr Ambedkar and 50,000 other dailts to take amrit and become sikhs on the orders of Gandhi

I heard it from some dhadi jatha

UK = The dhadi jatha were clearly wrong on their facts Khalsa Ji. If they don't respect Master Tara Singh they shouldn't stoop so low with such an accusation. No true Sikh on the planet will ever dissuade new entrants to the Panth and Master Tara Singh was a sincere Sikh by conviction. He could easily have lived a comfortable life as a Hindu but instead he chose the Khalsa Panth by sincerity of conviction.

Great discussion.

I thought Akaal Takhat Sahib jathedar declined the Dalits?

So sad this happened.

UK = Don't forget that these jathedars were often British lackeys who chose to define Sikhs in the 1940's Rehat Maryada in such a way as to limit our Panth's population to as small a demographic as possible, which we saw the future consequences of in the Punjabi Suba issue as well as 1984 ... that defining our Panth's population to as small a number as possible (whilst our enemies cleverly do the exact opposite) is the most course of action for the SGPC to take.

I heard some state of heads in Delhi ( under the British rule) sent high ranking sikh army officers to try to talk some sense into Baldev Singh and accept Sikh empire boundries prior to 1848. And the british envisioned three country, India, Pakistan and old sikh empire.

Churchill did say "without sikhs the war might have been lost", and the british were pushing for the three countries.

UK = Simply not true Atwal Ji. The so-called Sikh country in which 87% of the population were non-Sikhs is something the British would never have countenanced given that they gave Sri Nankana Sahib to their Muslim jagirdar friends. The British Empire never gave a damn about the Sikhs and so much is proved by the fact that Sikhs shouldered the majority of the responsibility of freeing erstwhile "British" India (as seen in martyrdom figures and prisoners etc, etc)

http://www.sikhreview.org/january2008/demography.htm

What if we somehow managed to get these 12.24 crore forgotten Sikhs counted as Sikhs and not as Hindus in the Indian population census? That would spontaneously hike up the Sikh numbers from 2.5 crores to some 15 crores? Then the number of Hindus would fall to some 75 crores. Muslims are already at some odd 20 crores or so.

UK = Some of the mentioned population figures in the link are over-exaggerated but the Jatav community (Mayawati's), Kabirpanthi's, Satnami's Vanjara's, Sikligars etc can certainly bring a combined new Sikh Panth population to in excess of 10 crores. However, are we ready to accept our non-Punjabi brothers and sisters as sehajdhari members of the Sikh Panth or is it important that we follow the RSS orders to define them as Hindu's?

Its all rumour nothing else , where are lakhs of Dalit Buddhist who should have converted with Ambedkar ?

UK = Lakhs of Maharashtra Dalitrs did convert to Buddhism. In fact the Buddhist population of India has risen from a few thousand to almost one crore currently on the strength of Dr Ambedkar's conversion alone. Even 10 million extra Sikhs would have boosted the Panth ability to serve humanity for Sarbat Da Bhala to a massive degree.

some excellent points there jashb.

I would like to see more younger SIkhs get into nationalist politics. They seem to shy away from this thinking that its not part of Sikhi, and also the negative politics of our parents generations are also having an effect on them.

UK = Jashb always makes great points but I disagree with Paji on this matter. As for nationalist politics, I think we need to substantially eradicate drugs, female foeticide, socio-economic and cultural discrimination within the Panth, alcohol, poverty, poor health and illiteracy within the Panth as pre-cursors for being in "shape" to win the freedom from terrorist control that all of us desire.

to accept that there is diversity in the panth, and that all samprdayes have their part to play.

UK = 100% agree with you Paji (as well as great points by Proactive Paji and Jonny Paji as usual)

Can we somehow start some sort of agitation to include/count the forgotten 12 crore Sikhs (Vanjaras, Sikligar, et al) as Sikhs and not Hindus. Say the 2014 census of India says Sikhs are now 15 crores, that is like 12% of the 1 billion Indian population, and trust me that number just can NOT be neglected ever, in terms of politics, economy, education or any field. What is even better is that they are spread out all over India, especially in the western and southern states. Add to this a small number of Sikhs coming in from Pakistan and Afghanistan also.

UK = We can start by doing two things - cleaning up our act in Punjab itself (see the threads relating Dhan Dhan (Gur) Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Badal funding the 115cr Valmiki Mandir in Amritsar) and accepting that we need at least 10 crore sehajdhari's for every 10 lakh true Amritdhari's we hope to add to the Panth. So let's stop labelling all those sehajdhari's with faith in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as non-Sikhs. The Puratan definition of a Sikh was anyone of any background who bowed down before Maharaj.

Ambedkar started hobnobbing with sikhs that he wanted to embrace sikhism.Sikhs responded positively.His nephew came

to Akal takhat was initiated as a khalsa.

Amebdkar was a politician.He changed his mind and instead opted for budhism.Sikhs went out of way to accommodate him.

Master Tara singh opened khalsa college at matunga, Bombay so that their children could get higher education. So pl

do not blame Master tara singh ji for that.

During independence he was sidelines by congress promoted leaders like Baldev singh who represented sikhs.Baldev

singh was amde a leader out of nowhere.He sided with nehru without consideration to sikh rights.

Master Tara singh was an honest and true sikh leader much better than likes of Fateh singh and co and todays akali leader.

He lived a simple life, made no meoney and lived ina modest house in one amritsar's dingy area called putlighar. i remember

visiting his house as a kid during his last days when he was bed ridden.He led his life like a man of very modest means and had

no personal property or bank balance when he died.

UK = It pleases me Paji to say that, for once, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

It was Master Tara Singh who sewnt one of his trusted lieutenanst to Mumbai to discourage the mass dalit conversion to sikhi.

ambedkar wanted to raise the social standing (naturally) of the dalits, and saw that the true Sikh ethos was the vehicle to do this, but the attitude of the present Sikh leaders turned his mind. He didnt want to jump out the fire into the frying pan.

I can understand his intentions, and why he took the u turn he did.

UK = I don't believe the allegation against Master Tara Singh Ji. Though I would believe it in relation to Baldev Singh.

One of my best buddies at work is a Dalit Buddhist from Maharashtra who is a hardcore devotee of Dr. Ambedkar. Now let me confess beforehand, I haven't read much about him, just bits and pieces. Most of my knowledge is from my friend who has been unable to answer some of my basic questions.

He says Dr. Ambedkar wanted Dalits to be armed and brave, sort of militant type so that they would never be oppressed ever again. My question was, if that was the case, he would never have opted for Buddhism no matter what as Buddhism has always faced oppression in history. I didn't get a satisfactory answer. In fact, the Buddhism followed by his followers is a totally new concept and different from the ancient Buddhism (I think).

UK = Sikhi alone, would have been the answer to ending oppression (globally) and it still is.

Dr. Ambedkar choosing to adopt any religion that hikes up the social status of his people was indeed a noble gesture, however, that makes me feel he probably wasn't serious about any religion (per say), and only wanted a guaranteed safe political status for his people (irrespective of their religion). The way I understand Sikhi, you become a Sikh once you've decided to die but not quit your faith, you live and die as a Sikh at any cost. You don't ask for anything in return, but are ready to give up your life and also that of your loved ones if needed. Someone "demanding" something before embracing Sikhi seems to me as some sort of a "bargain". Sorry but the only bargain in Sikhi is you offering SatGuru Jee your head and Him giving you whatever He feels best. I apologize but this is how I see Sikhi. The ideals of Gurmat would anyways provide equal status for his community. I don't see a need to ask for enforcing it? I don't mean to offend anyone, but this particular aspect of his somehow makes me feel he probably didn't fully comprehend the actual meaning of becoming a Sikh perhaps? We don't make deals with Guru Sahib now, do we? Please help me understand this about him.

UK = Mehtab Paji i agree with you. However, Sikh leaders should have realised that even if Ambedkar Ji didn't quite fully comprehend Sikhi (as anyone that does only opts for believing it) the millions he would have bought into the Panth could transform the fight against oppression and potentially prevented 1984 from happening had we been numerically stronger. To view non-Punjabi sehajdhari (Dalit) brothers and sisters on the basis of 1940's Rehat Maryada in contradiction to the Puratan definition of a Sikh was a grave mistake to allow Baldev Singh to make (when Baldev Singh did not represent the Panth).

Dr. Ambedkar is the father of the Indian Constitution. He condemned Hinduism, abandoned the thought of embracing Sikhi and ended up embracing Buddhism. As we know, Article 25 of the Indian Constitution brackets both Sikhs and Buddhists as Hindus. My question is how and why did he do that? When I asked my friend, he said it was in fact an entire committee that drafted the Constitution and not just him alone. It doesn't make sense as he is always seen as the father of the Indian Constitution. Can someone please try and explain this as well? Maybe there is a page of history missing? If you hate the religion you are born into, and you end up converting, you would never call both of them the same, would you?

UK = In 1947 India, the Arab word Hindu was seen to encompass all those of Sanatan Dharmic faith schools which include Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhi. Clearly, the rise of Hindutva has meant that all now understand that Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains are not Hindu and never will be. Even Master Tara Singh was merely a nominal signatory of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad in the days when Hindu stood for non-Muslim (outside of Punjab).

Please also help me understand how Dr. Ambedkar not becoming a Sikh proved to be harmful for us. As you can see, the caste system (or any other sugar-coated phrase anyone may want to use) is very much deep rooted in the present day Punjabi Sikh community.

How would 7 crore Dalit Sikhs make it any better/worse? What kind of scenarios do we see? Our population would be 22 crores, I am counting 12 and a half crore forgotten Sikhs as well, in addition to the 2 and a half crore Sikhs we already count. We would have a huge population, much more than Christians and Muslims. But what kind of other "caste" related internal issues would we face? Not saying that its good they did not become Sikhs, NO, NEVER! Just trying to think...what if they did?

UK = If our population ever reached 22 crores the Sikh Panth would be the strongest, most united and most "not to be messed with" block within the country. The day would thereafter follow whereby the whole of India would become Khalistan by virtue of a Sikh majority. Right now we are (if we ignore casteism) likely to become a minority in East Punjab by the 2021 census which is only 7 and a half years away. Bear in mind that the Brahmins number 5crores, as do Rajputs, Yadavs and Jatavs similarly. So an individual basis we are not far off matching the biggest non-Muslim communities initially if we can return to the fundamental truths of Sikhi rather than sinking into the drugs, alcohol, caste, illiteracy, infanticide traps laid out by Congress and their RSS allies in the ongoing (silent) Genocide of Sikhs.

Unreal. The Badal patriarch and son are truly disgraceful animals. They can't do anything for the downtrodden within Punjab. They ignore ke Rangrehte Guru Ke Bete and they have done nothing to highlight the contribution of Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji and others of similar ancestry to the Panth that comprised the bulk of the Shaheedian Misl forces.

What's ironic is that Balmiki was a Brahmin but now it suits the Badals to split the Qaum further in order to divide and rule the Panth from within. The last bastion is Malwa. The enemies of the Panth have succeeded in ensuring Balmiki Mandirs proliferation in Doaba and Majha and now their aim is to crack the saanjhe Gurdware remaining in villages in Malwa.

If the enemies of the Panth continue at the rate they are going they will have us in a minority by the 2021 census - the only way to stop them is to smash all discrimination internally (including at matrimonial level) by forcible means if necassary as we only have seven years left. Sikhi can never progress in a pind or locality where there is more than one Gurdwara. We need to merge Gurdware asap.

Could some one also please advise of the exact address and time sangatan are meeting in Geneve to hand this petition to the UN.

We should all aim to be there only a stone throw away from the UK

Bir'ay good point that Geneva is not too far away but I think our focus has got to be on getting as many signatures globally as we can ... and therefater our nominated Panj Pyaaray can present the petition on behalf of global Sangat. As rather than thousands of UK Sikhs spending money on plane tickets, hotels etc we can utilise that money direct to uplift our gareeb brothers and sisters in greater need of hep as I don't believe the Swiss media will give too much air time to the petition ... clever use of media with local Sangat in attendance can work just as effectively as millions of signatures is an undeniable voice from the Panth.

'Principal Gurbachan' the controversial missionary is booked at Park Av and Havelock Rd Gurdwara in Southall this week starting Monday (today) 21st.

UK = Paji why not Gurbachan Singh Khalsa (Thailand wale) complete his program before pre-judging it? Do such pro-Gurmat views that Sikhs should only bow before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj justify Sikh on Sikh violence as was launched by the opponents of Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) last year when the majority of the Sangat present inside agreed with Dhunda Sahib. We don't need this hysteria within the Panth when we should instead unitedly focus on getting over a million signatures for www.1984yesitsgenocide.org as Gurbachan Singh Khalsa (Thailand wale) will no doubt highlight.

given the kick offs inside Some gurdwaras Why dont all Commiittees create a draft resolution to keep clear from controversial issues and Guru Granth sahib ji, encourage Unity of all Jathas Groups Tribes and creeds as per Ardas recitation.

UK = I agree with you wholeheartedly Paji. But if some Gurdwara's allow Charitropakhyan to be simultaneously recited parallel to Maharaj, why should Singh Sabha Gurdwara's in the UK, Canada, USA, Thailand etc be prevented from articulating pro-Gurmat views which stress upon Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj being supreme as Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj himself ordained?

Hes from the same Uni as Dhunda & co. They very cleverly whilst doing some mainstream parchar, always seem to slip in a few crazy statements which tear at the very fabric of Sikhi - Sharda.

They dont believe in 5 Nitnem Banis - Jaap Sahib and Chaupia Sahib really kills them..

UK = I personally have faith in Sri Jaap Sahib and Sri Chaupai Sahib however that does not mean Sikhi is based on sharda alone. Sikhi is 100% by rational logic and committed seva alongside Naam Simran which is why Gurmat Gian have achieved such great things for poor Sikh youth at risk from drugs in Punjab.

They dont believe in Bhagat Bani from Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj.

UK = I'm afraid that's a blatant misrepresentation Paji. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is 100% truth. But yes the Charitopakhiyan stories are not accepted by many within the Panth as being authored by Dhan Dhan Guru Gobdind Singh Ji Maharaj. Certain GurSikhs believe that Guru Sahib had more pressing priorities such as praying to Akaal Purakh, fighting oppression of the weak within society, creating the Khalsa Panth, feeding the poor and the hungry ... than to write sexually charged stories when Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the strongest cure against kaam known to humanity.

They dont see Maharaj as Jaagdee Jot (Eternally Alive)they see Maharaj as a book!

UK = Maharaj is eternally alive. If our enemies burn Maharaj it doesn't mean our Guru suffers physical pain. That is all that is being said.

Thats just a few things they mislead the Guru Roop Sangat with.

UK = Respectfully Paji all the points put forward by yourself have been misleading (as I hope you will honestly acknowledge in retrospect).

What is truth? Anybody from any sector of society approached for support, medically or educationally, respected as human and honours as human lb sera dachshund ball.

UK = Daljit Singh Paji ... eh Dera Ballan wale Congressi chamche ne jere masoom Sangat da khoon peere ne

UK = Benti to Admin+Mods that this topic needs highlighting on "What's Happening" as many in our Qaum are sleeping on this issue and the Congress Party's and RSS goal to split an integral part of the Panth away so that Sikhs can be shown to be a minority in East Punjab in 2021 is succeeding. We have SEVEN YEARS LEFT to eradicate artifical divisions within the Panth or we will face severe long term consequences.

UK = On this occasion I have to respectfully diagree with certain viewpoints.

UK = Four of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi's. That indicates where our jor and bravery stems from.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66388-four-of-the-5-pyaaray-were-not-punjabi/

UK = Also the majority of Sikhs are not from the Jatt tribal identity (but the percentage is currently just slightly under 50%)

UK = The majority of Jatts are proud Punjabi Muslim Jatts like Pakistan's 1st Prime Minister or Hindu Jatt's like Sajjan Kumar

UK = Punjabi's were constantly the slaves of outsiders until such point that Sikhi liberated us to become Singhs.

UK = It should be remembered that up until Dhan Dhan Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji Maharaj up to half of our Qaum were ex-Muslims.

UK = Bhangra does indeed preserve links with the Punjabi language, however, when a Muslim Jatt record labels propagates casteist songs, promotes alcohol and drugs useage and encourages materialism then it is de facto acting as a cultural cancer within our youth.

UK = Bindy Johal should not be hero worshipped in BC amongst our youth. Anyone who sells drugs disqualifies themselves from being called Sikh. Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt us to utilise any sense of justice held by anyone within the wider community (not least our own) to combat Muslim paedophiles from emulating the Prophet Muhammad's achievements. SP did a great job in that respect.

UK = We need to urgently accept our sehajdhari (and non-Punjabi) brothers and sisters as fully haqdaar Sikhs rather than marginalising them.

UK = Tandoori Singh you were 100% absolutely correct that our enemies should always fear us (rather than the opposite way round).

Master tara was a hindu for the mojority of his life, had a hindu upbringing, converted to Sikhi much later in lafe, obviously he was going to side with the hindus.

UK = Sangha, Master Tara Singh was more Sikh than you or I could ever be. Would you make the same accusation against Bhai Lehna Ji?

If it wasn't for Mastar Tara Singh, today Punjab would have been part of Pakistan. And for that, most of his family was butchered during partition. Being born into another faith has nothing to do with one's loyalty. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was born and raised as a Hindu before he converted to Sikhi and became the leader of the Sikh Qaum and established the first Sikh Raaj. Prof Sahib Singh Jee was born a Hindu before becoming a Sikh and becoming one of the greatest Sikh scholars. Besides former Hindus, you will even find many examples of Sikhs who were former Muslims, but lived and died as Sikhs.

On the other side of the spectrum, Badal, KPS Gill, Gen Brar, Dayal etc are born and raised as Sikhs, yet we know where their loyalties lie.

UK = Excellently said Jonny Paji (as usual)

No he is right. Its a mistake to trust people coming into Sikhi from other non-Sikh backgrounds, especially Hindus. They can never be trusted and should never be given any sort of leadership roles. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and Prof Sahib Singh just happened to be a blessing, but otherwise Hindus who become Sikhs should never be trusted as they most likely always have an agenda. Only those who are born in Sikh families and raised throughout their life as Sikhs should have the right to lead the qaum.

UK = The sad thing is Mehtab Paji is that the same wretched disgraces who hold such opinions don't realise that they thereby disqualify themselves as Sikhs ... since Sikhi isn't acquired via birth > but by belief and sincere convictions and actions!

Maybe we would have been better off with Pakistan.

Was it not Jinnah who told the Sikh leaders to ask the british for a seperate Sikh homeland as the hindus could not be trusted?

Tara Singh sided with the hindus because he had an alligence with them. Im not saying he was wrong. Or write. What happened, happened. But its obvious he would have been inclined to side with the hindus as he came from that background.

UK = Sangha let's do some simple mathematics as obviously English is not your forte. More than 20% of the Sikh population was killed off in Pakistan in 1947. In India, during the Congress inflicted Genocide of Sikhs around 1% of the Sikh population was killed off. Even the death of a single Sikh (or any innocent human being) is unforgiveable but according to which Genocidal Criteria do you declare Pakistan to be a better place for Sikhs to have gone to in 1947? It's like saying Nazi Germany was a better place for Jews compared to New York City due to anti-semitism present in NYC in the 1980's.

Considering what we've been put through the past 60odd years, my answer would be Pakistan.

UK = Given that the Punjabi Muslims (who were never your enemies but are your beloved friends in Huddersfield and other wonderful parts of Yorskire like Bradford) killed off 20% of the Sikh population in Pakistan in 1947, you're arguing that the Indira+Rajiv orchestrated Genocide of Sikhs was as bad as the equivalent of 5million plus Sikhs being killed off in 1947 by Pakistani Muslims.

Facts:

From day one to date, around 50,000- 75,000 Sikhs have died at the hands of muslims.

From 1947 to date, 100,000 PLUS have died at the hands of our hindu brothers whom we stand united with.

UK = 75,000 to 100,000 Sikhs were killed in the earlier vada+cchota Muslim GhalluGhara's of Sikhs when over 50% of our Panth's population at those times was murdered in Genocide by Muslims prior to the existence of the apartheid (Islamic) state of Pakistan.

UK = Nobody stands united with the murderers of Sikhs but no I certainly don't hold 99% of innocent Hindu's guilty for the Indira+Rajiv orchestrated Genocide of Sikhs. 99% plus of all Punjabi Muslims vehemently supported Jinnah and the Muslim League's aims to ethnically cleanse all Sikhs from Pakistan (and indeed Amritsar, Jalandhar and Ludhiana too had our Qaum not had the balanced demographics with Muslims that we did in 1947 in Doaba, Malwa and Majha)

Master tara singh was also a founding member of the vishva hindu parishad. A nationalist hindu organisation based on the ideology of hindutva. Very closely associated to the bjp and rss.

You can not be born a sikh or forced to be a sikh, it has to be from within, but education about sikhi will help one to fall in love with sikhi and that is the starting point for children, our history is very powerful and rich how can anyone who inspires to be a sikh not be moved when he or she hears or reads about it.

UK = Inspirational to read about you being the only male member of your family to take Amrit Paji and you hit nail on the head about Sikhi being from within (rather than something we are born into).

Hasidsic Jews came to US after Holocoust. Looked around the existing synagouges were huge but empty. Their strategy was to invest in children, they started building their schools rather than big synagouges.

UK = Well highlighted Scali. It's common sense that we need to invest in the future growth of Sikhi through knowledge, educationa and translation rather than spending our Panth's limited resources on making fancy new buildings and thinking we are somehow being clever by copying Christians, Muslims and Hindu's in their obsession with fancy Churches, Mosques and Mandirs.

Just an idea I had, and I hope these words can express it, but when I look around at younger Sikhs today, those who follow Sikhi, to any extent seem to be into everything and anything Sikhi.

I was thinking about this, cos I have been like this in my younger days, but now have realised that there are so many areas to work in, for the betterment of the panth, that it is impossible to do every one. Rather than be a jack of all trades and expert in none, i made a decision to look at what things in the panth can be improved and do sewa specifically for that.

So i made a decision to work on 2 main projects only for the future, whilst supporting any others i can.

Since I have been doing it, i have felt that there has actually been progress, and would like to impress on the Sikhs here that maybe there could be an issue(s) that they feel strongly about and devote themselves to that practically and prioritise that.

Here are some areas in which attention is required, please feel free to add others:

Sewa in your local gurdwara, ie specifically,langar, education, community awareness

Gurmat Sangeet

Shastarvidiya

SIkh heritage around the world, esp Pakistan, and certain states in india

SIkh manuscripts, which are rotting/hidden away, which could be brought before world-wide sangat, and translationed into english

Human Rights

Fundraising

Charity work

Sikh political issues in the western world on community or national scale

Important annual events in the Sikh calendar

Sikhi camps

Forgotten traditions within the panth

International world days (examples of this are world literacy day, sept, and world book day in march)

With some of these people who are reluctant to do sewa for the panth, because of their personal commitment to their Sikhi, (meaning they may not be keeping kes etc) there are still areas in which they can still provide sterling assistance to the Panth.

UK = Excellent to read this Paji, keep it up! Regardless of minor differences on subjects where I have the opposite opinion to you just know that everyone in the Panth is supportive of such actions and we (myself included) need to focus our energy on appreciating where we all agree (rather than focussing on subjects where our Qaum has divergent opinions.

Some good intiatives on the seva. However, we all need to make sure we keep bhagti in our back of head-do bhagti while we do seva. Sri guru nanak dev ji bless us with sehaj marg in kalyuga where one can do nishkam seva among other social/family chores while being (bairagi/udasi) de-attached (personal feeling) to seva and attached to the center theme naam/gyan- Vahiguroo.

I must have wasted 7 years since 2003 on and off when i got into forum business by personally getting too attached to the issues which have over shadowed my central theme focus -shabad. Overall i have no regrets, just learning from things by getting guidance from senior gurmukhs -moving on the path. So people its good to learn from your mistakes but its even wiser to learn from other people mistakes here it is..whatever seva you do - do it without any personal attachment -niskham without any expectations of any results be it good or bad and make vahiguroo naam simran as your central theme.

UK = Paji without seva and concrete actions to accompany it "oh bhagti kidha di hoyee". Both in tandem are necassary. And I for one don't think you wasted time on here ... I might not agree with you 100% of the time ... but I have learnt a lot from your posts and viewpoints (and also i must add from only5 Paji :-)

If someone does any kind of historical preservation despite not doing bhagti, the external and superficial fal will still be the same. Of course the internal fal may not be the same, but that's a different subject.

With that said, of course you're supposed to do Bhagti and simran 24/7, but you can't pick and choose or kirat karna and vand chakna. A good example of this is Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale - he does great bani and Sikhi parchaar but he doesn't have kirat kamaiyee nor does he have vand chakna. In the end you can't pick and choose when you're a Sikh - it's the whole package. To take up the tasks that chatanga paji mentioned, all you need is that internal sharda to want to help the panth - everything else after that depends on the avastha of the person.

The mentality you mentioned is quite dangerous. This may not sit well with most Punjabis, but I feel like as a collective whole we make more excuses to not do something and use bhagti and naam simran as an excuse to be lazy. "Oh ki layna ah karke - mann khraab hunda. Bas baani pardi challo saara kuj set hojana". That's what a lot of pakhandi babay (who I will argue are indian govnt sympathizers) in Punjab say so the Khalsa Panth remains asleep and doesn't go out and act. Bani and Simran is a minimum every Sikh should have, but it's not the limit.

A lot of times doing sewa turns into bhagti, especially when done with Kirpa of Guru Sahib/Ardas done from bottom of the heart. Like Sant Singh Ji Maskeen has said we've lost a lot, never gained much mainly because of this kind of thinking.

The reason I'm saying this is because we're in a very critical stage in history right now and will be facing a lot of attacks on our ithihaas from many sides - including internal. Our goal right now should be to become GurSikhs AND it's very, very important to support any kind of sewa someone can do for the panth.

An example of this can be an environmental task, maybe someone isn't really a practicing Sikh, but they love the environment. Trees they plant in Punjab or any sort of environmental work they do will still be the same as if someone with a high avasta did the same thing. Hope you get what I'm saying with this.

UK = Paji you're absolutely bang on target. I totally agree with you.

On SIkh Channel breakfast show, there was a young girl, who has made a documentary on the Gurdwara in Jaggannath, in Orissa, and the condition of it. Highlighting of our precious heritage all over India, Pakistan, and the UK is a brilliant sewa.

Are you able to do something similiar?

Or wish to volunteer with existing groups in the field?

edit: And Afghanistan.

There is a great Sikh historical connection with Afghanistan, that is disappearing not only from the land, but our hearts and minds.

UK = Paji, this is where I respectfully disagree with you. I 100% agree that Gurdware in Orissa where Bhai Himmat Singh Ji of the Panj Pyaaray came from need to preserved and we need to increase parchaar to highlight the bravest person GurSikh to arise from Orissa and provide Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in Odisha bhasha ... but preserving heritage in Afghanistan and Pakistan is a waste of limited resouces. Historic Gurdware and Gurdware near to Punjabi Christian and Sindhi non-Muslims should be prioritised (but without any unnecassary expenditure on glitzing the exterior). Sikhi comes from within and vishwaas in Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and Sikhi is important than heritage per se.

The program in question is to be aired on SC tonight at 9pm. it is about the dying SIkh heritage in Orissa. To think that the spot where Guru Nanak Dev Ji revealed Aarti shabad is vanishing.

UK = Part of the reason our enemies our succeeding in eradicating Sikhi outside of Punjab is that we are not ready to accept sehajdhari non-Punjabi's as Sikhs. When we declare our own brothers and sisters as Hindu's (despite Bhai Himmat Singh and countless other GurSikhs coming from Orissa) then we can't expect Sikhi to flourish outside of Punjab. We simply cannot expect 100% of new non-Punjabi Sikhs to be Amritdhari given that we have never achieved the same in East Punjab.

A Sikh professor has been attacked and injured by a gang in New York, USA.

His repsonse? An invitation to the youths to come to the Gurdwara and see what Sikhs really are.

What an excellent idea! Why not be proactive? invite the local schools in your area, to visit your local gurdwara and tell them what Sikhs are.

UK = Exactly. Whenever our Qaum is attacked negatively we have to turn it around and spin the occurrence to our future advantage.

Did you know there are many Sikh artefacts being sold in the UK on auctions and such, why not see if your Gurdwara might be interested in buying some items to make a historical exhibition?

UK = Paji let all the goray and rich Arabs buy those artefacts. Let's focus the money we'd waste buying those artefacts up into eradicating drugs, eradicating female foeticide, eradicating artificial divisions within the Panth, increasing health+education levels in East Punjab as well as increasing seva and parchaar in areas of India and Africa where the need is greatest and where future Sikhs are most likely to realistically arise.

Very good gesture veerji, but on the wrong forum I am sorry to say

Paji kyoh? Saada farz sab tho zyaa'dha ban'dhaii Sikh hohn de naa'the.

Instead of putting gold domes and spending millions on the structure of new Gurdware we need to concentrate the same money on seva.