UKLondonSikh

Well stated Singh559 Paji, VHS Paji and Genie Singh. The politically correct nonsense that Sikhi ... which is about Sarbat dha Bhalla and the welfare of all humanity whether Sikh, Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Jewish etc ... and Islam are somehow equally beneficial to global society needs to be refuted. We need to constantly remind people that Bhai Mardana Ji was the 1st Sikh and there was a reason why Bhai Mardana Ji left Islam - despite apostacy being punishable by death according to Prophet Muhammad's rules. When one day far into the future billions of Muslims realise that Guru Sahib liberated people - whilst Muhammad enslaved them, the whole World could change for the better ... as I find it staggering that in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh the Muslims outnumber Sikhs by 20 to 1 ... which is why we badly need to break all links of Punjabiyat with Sikhi and focus on growing our our numbers even if that be primarily via new Sehajdhari believers who believe in the concept of Sarbat Da Bhala. A greater number of Amritdhari GurSikhs will follow that in due course.

Respect to you Chatanga Paji for saying what needed to be said. I understand some of Genie Paji's concerns but Chatanga's Paji clarification of the Gurmat position was important - as we have to look beyond what happened in the past and on how to re-connect the two young innocent (Sikh) daughters and their Mother back to their local Sangat which can be done with pyaar and sympathy but will never happen by judging someone on their past. Perhaps as part of her local Sangat this widow can help other young girls avoid the same mistakes.

JSinghnz - just in case any doubt, Chatanga Paji was joking regards going to a Pub!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71302-2-easy-ways-of-doing-parchaar-in-gurdwaras/

The fact that there are two channels. We should have one saanjha channel for the Panth in the UK that we can all support and pay for rather than wasting an extra £1million a year on running a second channel ... when that money can be better utilised for poor members of the Panth and others in getting access to education and healthcare.

_{http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66390-can-we-force-sangat-tv-sikh-channel-to-merge/}

_{Sangat's matrimonial programme is a disgrace if they are still mentioning biraderi ... and please can others also email them and to register our protests at DS Bal of Sikh Channel's secular music station promoting alcohol, jaath-paath and disrespect for women.}

_{http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70587-how-to-tackle-jaath-paath-discrimination-in-matrimonials/}

P9 Paji you're my brother in the Panth so I won't argue with you on this subject but it may be that Dhunda Sahib did not use those exact words and may have instead been stressing that without keeping a saaf dhill, abstaining from meat becomes less meaningful (as Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj stated in Gurbani) and I might be a bigger Pappi than you if looked at it in that way.

Those pics are crushing.

UK = Paji don't worry so much these were only just Samadhi's. The Gurdwaray are what's really sad. Remember Ranjit Singh was the most able political leader for the community in his time. The Panth can never tolerate or flourish under a royal family and like Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa advocated only Sarbat Khalsa and Panj Pyaaray should lead our Qaum. Saamadhi's of so-called royal children shouldn't mean too much to us, though of course I would rather such heritage had survived vandalism from the Punjabi Muslims.

UK = Instead of repairing manmat Samadhi's let build more quality schools and hospitals all across our side of Punjab, where needed most elsewhere in India and sub-Saharan Africa and we will achieve far more results.

You're so right.

We all need to become independent so we can take on such projects. :|

UK = Paji Fancy Banana Ji said it much better than me (though I do consider the Sindhi's as Sikhs already):

Banana = Also increase parchaar in the Hindus in Pakistan. They already keep Guru Granth Sahibs, so I don't see why these 1million+ couldn't help us to take care of the heritage in Pakistan. However, what is the point of building up gurdware then not using them. Also, say we spend millions renovating. Then India kills a Muslim. The Pakistanis will take their anger out on our buildings (they've done this before attacking Sikh buildings in 1992).

I think Sirsa stated that Akali dal badal group is asking them if they should send sikhs from Punjab to augment their strength.

Sirsa told that they will seek their help when time demands.

At least Manjit Singh GK, sirsa are providing front and getting beaten by police. Sirsa's left arm is fractured.What did Sarna a congress tout did for 10 years?Simply swindling money, beating political opponents by goonda brigade, taking this goonda brigade to Ponty chadha farmhouse with unsheathed swords and licking shoes of Kamal nath and not allowing Phoolka to file case against him. Uttering shameless accusations against Phoolka that he has a Mecedez Car etc.

Let us learn to appreciate those who are helping now.GK, sirsa, Onakar Thapar, Bhogal, Karnail singh peermohammed and all those non sikhs who are showing sympathy for Bibi Nirpreet kaur ji deserve appreciation.

Sikhs should welcome help from all sides Muslims, Hindus to strengthen their case for justice.Then only we will succeed. It is duty of state to provide justice to relatives of dead and punish guilty. But congress would not like to do it as the blame goes to top. They should be forced to do justice by public pressure.

UK = I'm glad to say Paji i wholeheartedly agree with what you say above.

UK = I especially liked the bits where you wrote:

GPS = "Let us learn to appreciate those who are helping now"

GPS = "Sikhs should welcome help from all sides"

UK = GPS Paji, imagine how much stronger the Panth will be if sincere brothers like you join hands with those you feel are non-Sikhs or atheists.

UK = The Panth will be unstoppable then. Ekta thay pyaar hovay saaday vich ... thay Duniya di koyee thaaqath ni saanu Sikh'ah thohr sakdhee!!!

Jonny = The names of Muslims are very few. Not even 5%. Most are Hindus, so Hindus are the perpetrators here.

UK = Paji the Muslim perpetrators are closer to 20% which matches their percentage of the Delhi population

Jonny = But one thing I don't understand about Indian Muslims is that while Sikhs are very vocal against Modi and Gujarat massacre of Muslims, but when ever operation bluestar comes up they(Indian Muslims) team up with Hindus and say Sant Bhindranwale was a terrorist and operation blue star was justified. And when it comes to the Anti Sikhs riots of 84, instead of voicing their solidarity with the Sikhs(as the Sikhs do with them about 2002), they start to say "What about 2002?" In fact I have seen more Hindus showing solidarity with Sikhs about the Anti Sikh riots than the Indian Muslims.

UK = It's like Khurshid said, we Sikhs are despised for having the ankh to stand up to the Muslim League which wanted Amritsar and Jalandhar within their Pakistan as well.

Jonny = Indian Kashmiris(who are the real Kashmiris) on the other hand are different from the rest of the Indian Muslims in this regard. They always condemn not only operation bluestar but also anti Sikh riots.

UK = True Paji. But let's not have any illusions ... if Indian Kashmir was independent the Sikhs would soon be ethnically cleansed out of there too.

UK = The Muslim Brahmins of Kashmir are all related to Nehru and Gangu and wouldn't take long to try repeat the ethnic cleansing by Punjabi Muslims in Punjab in 1947

P9 = we all expected him not doing katha anymore in delhi gurudwara ( i think bangla sahib)

P9 = so in he still doing katha?

UK = He is there less at the moment as a direct consequence of the political calculations by which Sant Samaj (who oppose him) have to be kept sweet by Badal camp. However, he and others like him will be back at Sri Bangla Sahib by public demand from local Sangat - of that I'm pretty sure.

In my opinion not. Delhi committee president had issued statement that no disrespect direct or indirect will be allowed in Delhi Gurudawaras towards bani of Dasam Granth sahib.Also katha will be gurmat based and not slander or criticism based.

In my opinion their days are over.They are not kathakars but were promoted by congress agent Sarna against sikh principles.

UK = Obviously Paji it was inevitable in the short term that only those agreeable to Sant Samaj would be permitted after the (positive)changeover at DSGMC. I personally oppose Sarna and am glad that the far better Manjit Singh GK has come to the fore, as Sarna's links with Congress and Ponty Chadha clearly disqualified from holding such a post. The disgraceful scenes at Bangla Sahib in recent months were clearly Sarna's doing so good riddance. However, if kathakars are given an opportunity (most likely as you suggest by Sarna to ruffle Badal's feathers) then anti-Congress kathakars like Dhunda Sahib and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa can't be blamed for that.

P9 = 1st time wen i tried his katha ...he said eat meat ... even guru nanak never said no to meat ......BUS DIL SAAF RAKHO.....

UK = P9 Paji yet again you're misrepresenting his position. I don't eat meat despite having his heard his katha a few times and nor do I intend to change from that. All that is being said is that the Khalsa Fauj is not restricted to vegetarian bhojan in the absence of non-meat food being available. So if the Khalsa Fauj only have access to meat during battle or tribes living in the jungle without convenient supermarkets nearby eat non-vegetarian food, we shouldn't judge them over that but analyse what Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's position was about those that avoid meat but make other human beings lives a living hell.

UK = As for the clip, yet again I see nothing anti-Sikh or atheist about it and good on Dhunda Sahib for criticising the musical dogs that deliberately promote jaath-paath, alcohol, disrespect for women etc in their records (often famously for a Muslim Jatt record label from Birmingham in the UK)

GPS = Guru nanak sahib was above such thinking that he will convert Mardana ji.

UK = Paji, Bhai Mardana Ji as the great and famous Sikh that he was had voluntarily accepted that Sikhi was the Truth.

UK = Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj never looked to convert anybody in an Islamic manner via the sword or for personal benefit.

UK = In fact the high caste Muslims of Punjab ridiculed Guru Nanak for having a so-called low caste as his first disciple.

GPS = He was a rebabi and become his companion.

UK = Paji i don't believe that correctly ascribes the level of respect we should have for the most prominent Guru da Sikh - Bhai Mardana Ji - in Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's life.

GPS = After reaching India Guru sahib went to his home and brought his son shahzada to be his rebabi. His offspring is still in pakistan following islam.

UK = Paji those crooks in Pakistan today that claim they are descendents of Bhai Mardana do so in order to make money off gullible Sikhs as they are aware that many within the Panth have swallowed such anti-Sikh Mughal propaganda hook, line and sinker. Bhai Mardana Ji's son that you talk of was a Sikh and even part of Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj's Sangat.

GPS = Where are your missionaries like dhundha, inder ghagha, Jeonwala, darshan ragi, at this juncture. Of course they are busy spreading propaganda against sikhi ideals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrHRUw7CHM

UK = Paji from the above you can see that the Panth is totally United and we need even more Unity.

UK = The more people we have united under Nishaan Sahib the better. VJKK VJKF

GPS = At one place you write that Mardana became a sikh. But Guru sahib buried him with his own hands with muslim rites.

UK = Paji i'm sorry but what you have stated above is wrong. Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh. The Mughals only came out with such anti-Sikh propaganda when Jehangir realised that Muslims were becoming Guru de Sikh in their thousands. Hence they started to push the lie that Bhai Mardana Ji died a Muslim - which is an absolute lie. As you know, the punishment that Muhammad created for leaving Islam was that ex-Muslims be killed. With so many brave Muslims becoming part of the Sikh Panth this represented an extreme threat to the Islamic Empire's existence. Guru Sahib liberated the poor and instituted Langar. So it is highly ridiculous for any of us to think that Bhai Mardana would have any faith in a rich Slaveowner like Prophet Muhammad who even sold children for financial profit so that he could afford his 13 wives and multiple slavegirls. Bhai Mardana lived as the foremost Sikh within Guru Sahib's life and died as a Sikh.

GPS = He remained muslim till his death.he went to Mecca with Guru sahib so that he becomes a haji.

UK = Paji when Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh, why would he bother to go on Hajj in order to enrich the Qureshi (Arab Brahmin caste which ate the profits from pilgrims coming to Mecca). Guru Sahib condemned pilgrimages and Bhai Mardana as a true Guru ka Sikh accompanied Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj on their travels purely for the task of spreading Gurmat for the purpose of Sarbat Dha Bhalla. The Hajj story is yet another story falsely introduced by anti-Sikh forces (not your good self - I'm referring to the Mughals) in order to try and weaken Sikhi.

UK = Paji please remember that it's not about destroying Sikh history - it's about authenticating Sikh history so that it actually tallies with Gurmat, rather than inadvertently innocent Sikhs spreading the agenda's of the Muslims or the RSS+Sena because of innocent shardha. But whatever our viewpoints about history or certain miracles we cannot exclude other Amritdhari GurSikhs from the Panth when we all share the more important agenda of ridding Punjab of illiteracy, inadequate healthcare, female infanticide, drugs, alcohol and biraderi discrimination. Even though I contest your points when i strongly disagree with you, Paji let's try to unitedly push the building of new schools and assistance for the gareeb members of the Panth as our Panth's United response to the acquittal of Sajjan Kumar whilst Bhai Rajoana and Professor Bhullar languish on death row for no crimes whatsoever.

The fact is that cult of missionaries have no respect for our Guru sahibans. They think they are gone then why to give any importance to them.

In another thread this gurdeep johal shamelessly writes that Guru nanak could not turn head of his son Sri chand.How did he turn Mecca.

UK = Paji every Sikh on the planet has love for our Guru Sahib. The pro-Gurmat camp are arguing that not enough importance is given to Gurmat whereas Hindu Devi Devta's, and miracles as other faiths have made popular are being falsely introduced into Sikhi and given importance whilst Guru Sahib's core message is being ignored.

UK = As far as i believe, Gurdeep Paji (though he could have expressed it better) did not malign Guru Sahib but was making the point that if Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj chose Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj (because Bhai Lehna Ji understand Gurmat better than Sri Chand) then why would Guru Sahib rotate Mecca to prove what is already blatantly true - namely that there is no direction in which God does not exist.

Jachak jagtar said why people go to Hazur sahib as it is a grave of a dead person.

UK = Paji this is a gross-misrepresentation of the pro-Gurmat position. Giani Jagtar Singh Khalsa (Jachak) has merely stated that the Khalsa Panth, Vaisakhi 1699 and Sri Anandpur Sahib is what Sikhs in Punjab should focus on spiritually rather than spending money on yathra's (like followers of other faiths) to travel thousands of miles south to Sri Hazur Sahib - where there is parallel parkash going on of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj with what was called, in its totality, Bachittar Natak (until Khem Bedi - Amitabh Bachchan's ancestor - decided to call it DG around a 100 years ago to help his Arya Samaj friends in demeaning our Guru Sahib)

This is their pet word metaphorical. They may not be knowing its meaning also.

Their idol is harjinder dilgeer who says there were no chali muktas.

UK = Paji if words were taken literally then many would interpret Ram as meaning Ram Chander rather than one God as Guru Sahib meant. Laxmi, Kaal etc have pretty literal meanings as well of course :-) Paji i wholeheartedly believe in the greatness of our Chaali Mukte. The only academic debate I understand some academics have quarrelled over is the names of the blessed forty. Paji, if i can respectfully say, you are I'm sure aware that Dera Congress Ballan are trying to take 3million Sikhs out of the Panth before the 2021 census. You are aware that the so-called high caste Muslim Khan's and Hindu Hill Raja's despise our Qaum because Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave control of the Sikh Fauj to Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji of the Chaali Mukte (who the Muslims and Hindu's always despised for being from a leatherworking family) ... so if you were to concentrate on joining people to the Sikh Panth rather than ejecting people like Gurdeep Paji (who is your brother in the Panth from Bhajan Lal's area) wouldn't we able to achieve more as a United Qaum (rather than worrying about if some Amritdhari GurSikhs dare to deny anti-Gurmat miracles)

what about Panja Sahib ji etc where their is clearly a hand print and other Gurdwaras with foot prints water appeared and horse prints and furnaces cooled instantly, do we disregard those events to and say no miracles occured ?

UK = Sat Paji the biggest miracle is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We don't need to copy miracles that the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims have done a pretty good job of concocting as it drags down Sikhi to the same level. I mean these faiths have virgin births, half-elephant half-human gods, Muhammad splitting the Moon into two when he flew up there on a white horse. The fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is Sikhi's greatest miracle is what marks it out as the Truth.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji metaphorically stopped the rock with his Panja. It's not meant to be taken literally.

Sarcasm :blush2:

UK = Mod Paji that was funny ... but TamilNadu Advanced Teacher Training Institute was funnier :-)

UK = But let's examing the rock story. So supposedly this Muslim Pir Wali Qandahari (aka Hasan Abdal) throws down a 3,000kg plus boulder to try kill Bhai Mardana Ji. That's one strong weightlifting Pir! It's a miracle the Muslim Pir supposedly threw such a heavy rock. Oddly enough the massive boulder alleged to have been thrown only a few centuries ago has already melded in perfectly with the ancient rock formation.

UK = As you know Sri Panja Sahib was first instituted by Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa less than 200 years ago when this rock Sakhi was not so popular amongst true Gursikhs. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa built Sri Panja Sahib to commemorate the fact Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and Bhai Mardana went through Hasan Abdal and Bhai Mardana Ji survived an attack on his life. The Muslim Pir despised Bhai Mardana Ji for being a Sikh (and hence an apostate of Islam - as the Quran states that the punishment for leaving Islam is death) and also the Pir hated Bhai Mardana Ji for being what the Muslim Pir thought was a low caste. The Muslim Pir ordered that Bhai Mardana be stoned to death for such a transgression as ditching Islam and even threw rocks at Bhai Mardana Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

UK = Given the spring where there is water and fish was an ancient bathing site and hand prints can be found in caves throughout the world - it does not mean that the handprint at Hasan Abdal is Guru Sahib's.

UK = We shouldn't need this handprint miracle to confirm Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's greatness to us. Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa would never forgive the Panth for holding such anti-Gurmat beliefs. It is also telling that the Gujjar and Jatt Muslim population of Hasan Abdal have their own story regarding it.

GPS = It seems you do not read what i write and then beat about bush. Regarding plaque i quoted dialogue with Peer behlol and not qazi of mecca.

Do you know who was Peer behlol. Read below what i wrote and If you contest this plaque is not there then i will post credible ref for you.

I had written

quote

GPS = Now there is a slab erected since that time in memory of Guru sahib's visit and a place where Guru sahib had

dialogue with Peer behlol. He became Guru ji's disciple and did bhagti till his last breath where he had dialogue with Guru

ji. To turn him into a disciple was also a miracle.

GPS = The above is narrated by Swami anandmurthy in his famous poem " Song of swan bird" he passed by that place on foot on his way

to norway sometime in 1916 around.

unquote

UK = So you openly admit GPS Paji that there is no plaque in Mecca confirming it's rotation. Aside from the fact that the Arabs of Mecca would presumably have commemorated the rotation of Mecca had it occurred, I think it's telling none of the residents of Mecca is Sikh and that they regard Sikhi as being a Kaffir Qaum. The plaque you are referencing which attests to Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's journey through there is actually in Baghdad - 1,400 km away from Mecca. And it does not mention the rotation of Mecca either and nor would any Iraqi citizen of Baghdad agree with the rotation of Mecca story.

GPS = UK Londonsikh

GPS = Your dhundha and his missionary collegues openly state that there is no reincarnation in sikhi. They also do not believe that there is an entity such as soul.

GPS = Now you tell me if there is no reincarnation obviously there is no soul also. So do not try to defend them with your skewed logic. They call Naam simran as parroting.

GPS = My straightforward question to you

GPS = Do you believe in reincarnation?

UK = Paji i do believe that the soul has to travel through a journey that is not necassarily restricted to the life we are living right now. Sikhi does have mystical elements and I don't believe that non-Mahapursh's can know everything there is to know about what happens when this present life ends. I am aware that Karma in Sanskrit refers to actions in this life rather than in previous lives. I do not believe in any way Hinduism's definition of reincarnation as per Manu Smriti - whereby the believers of such philosophy think that 300,000 plus Sikhs that were killed in Pakistan in 1947 got murdered as a result of the sins of their previous lives. I don't believe that all the innocent Sikhs that died in 1984 or under Beanta's reign of terror did so as a result of previous sins. I regard such beliefs as wrong. Is your question related to your belief that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj had a previous life connected with the Hindu Maa Durga according to yourself? Do you truly believe in that story and that innocent Sikhs killed suffered as a result of their past sins or do you actually agree with Dhunda Sahib that the innocent Sikhs that died were killed as a result of the evil actions of our enemies and nothing else?

Jonny Paji i do respect your interpretation and those of esteemed scholars within the Panth's history. However, as you know in the pro-Gurmat school of thought within Sikhi everybody is united in the belief that Gurbani opposes miracles and that the miracles referred to in Gurbani are metaphoric and illustrative. Paji there is no concrete evidence that Bhai Gurdas Ji truly mentioned the rotation of Mecca - as you know there are those that deny this.

I don't really wish to extendedly debate upon this with you Jonny Paji (as i truly have massive respect for you as a sincere GurSikh even if I might disagree with you on this issue) but I think the rejection of miracles is central to keeping the Panth strong and that's why I've expressed my beliefs. When we accept the rotation of Mecca etc, it weakens certain minds within the Panth to be susceptible prey to believing in miracles like ... the virgin birth of Jesus and his resurrection after a few days in a coffin ... half-elephant half-human "gods" ... or Guga Pirs or Prophet Muhammad splitting the Moon into two parts ... or Sikhs participating in mundan, tewa, jaath-paath ... you name it. I agree that Gurbani should always be interpreted in a Gurmat way as opposed to literally when it may suit a particular viewpoint.

Like I said Paji, overall we need to put our minor differences aside (though by all means we can respectfully debate them) and focus on using what our enemies have done to us in not freeing Bhai Rajoana, Professor Bhullar and others whilst freeing a proven murderer like Kishori Lal and now acquitting Sajjan Kumar ... and focus the energy and anger we have inside us on how we are going to uplift the Panth by building more schools, paying for more education for poor Sikh youth, building more drug rehabiliation and sports facilities in the villages, stamping out those who aid female infanticide and wretchedly preserve the caste system as well as trying to extract what we can for the long term benefit of the Panth as a 25million united front from Manmohan Singh before his term as Prime Minister of India ends.

Kully = sounds a bit paranoid there are lots of bad people in this world not just specific militant hindutva organisations,

London = Agreed Paji, racists and Nazi's like Anders Breivik, terrorists whether they be Muslim or like Indira are all the enemies of the Sikh Panth

Kully = destroy by any means necessary is a bit over the top

London = the ideologies that put tyres around innocent people's necks or kills scores of children on a Norwegian Island or kills 300,000 plus Sikhs in Pakistan in 1947 do need to be destroyed

Kully = people from the 84 riots should get there sajja

London = Agreed and the best sajja that we can all participate in is doing our best in our own little ways to create a larger and Unified Sikh Qaum, without biraderi, without alcohol consumption, without drugs or female infanticide or illiteracy or poverty plaguing it

Kully = but we dont need to grow our numbers

London = Sikhi is for Sarbat dha Bhalla. A thousand people working collectively as a Sadh Sangat to help the poor and oppressed is always better than ten people doing the same.

Kully = the gurus never openly asked hindus to convert

London = I never said anything about converting people. Let's accept those who attend the Gurdwara but might have a name like Kumar to be accepted as Sehajdhari members of our Panth. Let's invite all those who believe in Sarbat dha Bhalla to join hands with us as Sikhi is the best platform to create social change in society as our Guru Sahib showed.

Kully = your actions should show them that sikhi way is amazing

London = 100% agreed

Kully = but so is hindu way if followed rightly

London = there is no precise definition of a "Hindu" way. Most people defined by the RSS as Hindu's are in fact Sikhs. The word Hindu itself is an Arabic word.

Kully = you have no place to "wipe out" a religion absolute horse/<banned word filter activated>

London = Kully Paji you've got the wrong end of the stick :-) I never said anything about wiping out the followers of a whole religion!

London = I was referring to wiping out ideologies that commit terrorist murders against innocent human beings.

Kully = that would make us as bad as the mughals of old/political hindutva orgnisations

London = Agreed the murder of innocents is wrong. Hindutva's political base can be wiped out by acceptance of most good Hindu's as being Sehajdhari Sikhs.

London = But good on you Khalsa Ji for pulling me up on what you perceived about my wording.

London = It's better for us to criticise anti-Gurmat hatred where we see it (rather than stay quiet) so VJKK VJKF

Our history say that Guru Nanak sahib went to Mecca and as mullah turned his feet to otherside, Mecca rotated to that side. But faithless missionaries refute that saying it is not possible.

There is Gurdeep s johl who writes on this forum that he does not believe in this.

He writes

Rotation of Mecca and Panjokhra Sahib issue veerji I don't either believe leave aside Dilgeer.

Showing miracles is against Gurmat.

But rotation of Mecca is endorsed in Bhai Gurdas ji Vaar also. Bhai sahib was born during last year of Guru Angad dev ji and lived till time of Sri hargobind sahib.

Missionary mindset does not understand that miracles are not caused but occur as will of God to aid his devotees.

Many young minds come to this forum for learning sikhi.What type of example we are giving them by disowning our history?

UK = GPS Paji, I don't place much credence in the story that Mecca rotated either. For me, my Guru's Truth and Highness shines brightly enough through the fact that they taught the Muslims that God does not reside in Mecca alone but in ALL directions. The deep point made by Guru Sahib does not need embellishment by stating that Mecca itself rotated. The matter is not about disowning our Panth's history - it's about reclaiming the True history which aligns with Gurmat and Gurbani. I'm 100% sure that Gurdeep Paji, Dhunda Sahib, Panthpreet Singh Khalsa and others that you view as atheists care about Sikhi just as passionately as you do (for which I genuinely respect you, even though I often disagree with you on this particular matter).

Great topic veerji. The Makkah rotation saakhi finds mention by non other than Bhai Gurdas Jee's varaan. As Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhinranwale jee mentions, some(very few actually) began denying this saakhi out of fear of Muslims.

Like the makkah rotation, another Saakhi from the jeevani of bhagat namdev jee mentions the rotation of a Mandhir. This event is mentioned in Gurbani itself. Gurbani mentions many such miracles of Vaheguru that have occurred. Unfortunately many missionaries are so brainwashed by the metriculation passed Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana that they cannot think outside the box.

UK = Jonny Paji no Gursikh will ever fear Muslim beliefs. Guru Sahib liberated the poor and instituted Langar. Prophet Muhammad, as a rich Slaveowner, traded in the lives of innocent human beings and children as well as clearly developing Islam as effectively an Arabic Empire (under the guise of submission to Allah). Jameen aas'maan da farq haii Paji.

UK = The Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Gurbani is metaphoric and refers to the fact that God's illumination was more brightly present "outside" of the Mandir (with the shardha of the True devotees of The One meditating upon the True Name) as opposed to inside the Mandir where the wretched caste-discriminating Mahants had lost all spirutual connection to Akaal Purakh ParmAathma.

Missionaries just want to prove that their Bulls**t Parchar is more miraculous than Our Satguruji's Miracle.

If they say Miracle are against Gurmat.....then SGGSJI is also miracle because SGGSJi bani cannot be written by any human......If you get cured from Illness and DIsease by reading Bani.....it is also Miracle.......If Baba Deep singh ji Carried his head on this Palm just to save his Sikh Dharam......Then that is ALso Miracle..

UK = MP Paji every Sikh on the planet agrees with you in so much as that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is indeed a greater miracle than any debateable miracle which has been written about in relation to Sikhi in more recent history as an attempt at embellishment and which merely serves to drag the Sikh Panth into the same maya that Hindu's, Muslims and Christians with their incredible unbelievable miracles are clearly engrossed in.

UK = For anyone that is cured from a disease, every Sikh on the planet will utter "Vaheguru" on such an occurence.

UK = Mohinder Pal Paji I respect your sharda in believing that Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh carried his head in his hand whilst fighting for however many hours or days you believe. However, do you not agree that it is even more incredible if Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh received an (ultimately fatal) sword wound to their neck but still with unmatchable bravery kept on fighting whilst losing blood so long as their heart was pumping with Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji's body fighting till the very end for Sarbat dha Bhalla. You believe that they fought with a decapitated head held in one hand. Others believe they fought so long as their physical body would phsyically allow them despite losing so much blood from their neck. That doesn't mean either side has any less reverence for Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji. Who is the greater Mahapursh - one who fights with a decapitated head in hand or one who continues fighting till their last breath suffering severe blood loss from ultimately fatal wounds. Don't answer that - just think about it in your heart Paji.

Bro, I agree with you. But we are not talking about Ridhi Sidhis. We are talking about the out right denial of miracles through out history which have even been mentioned in Gurbani and Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji. We cannot write them off or try to deny them because to deny those occurrences would be to deny the truthfulness of Gurbani.

UK = Jonny Paji no Sikh on the planet can deny the 100% truth of Gurbani.

UK = However, interpretations can differ and we shouldn't lose Panthic Unity as a consequence.

Bhagat Namdev Jee was kicked out of the Mandhir, he went to the back side and was in vairaag.

To keep the laaj of His Bhagat, Vaheguru made the Mandhir rotate around Bhagat Namdev.

UK = Jonny Paji just like how Guru Sahib explained to the Muslims that there is no direction in which God is not present, it needs to be borne in mind that for God to be "present" with Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj it does not require a physical building to literally rotate. Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj was in vairaag in a state of spiritual bliss with the Lord outside of the Mandir. The wretched caste-discriminating Mahants inside the Mandir were as far away from God in spiritual terms as evil people can be. That's the rotation Maharaj was referring to. Literal interpretation will lead our Panth into the same acceptance of miracles as Christians, Muslims and Hindu's. Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne.

Miracles are not caused.They do happen with God's will. Rotation of Mecca was not caused by guru sahib.It was God's act.

The problem with atheists is that they do not believe sikhi as a mystic path.

Now there is a slab erected since that time in memory of Guru sahib's visit and a place where Guru sahib had

dialogue with Peer behlol. He became Guru ji's disciple and did bhagti till his last breath where he had dialogue with Guru

ji. To turn him into a disciple was also a miracle.

The above is narrated by Swami anandmurthy in his famous poem " Song of swan bird" he passed by that place on foot on his way

to norway sometime in 1916 around.

Poblem with these missioanry cult is that they do not believe in existence of a soul. How can they believe in God. Their whole scholarship is fake.

UK = Paji it's highly questionable whether such a slab exists in Mecca attesting to the fact that Mecca rotated. The bigger testimony to such a miracle occurring would have been that the Qureshi caste (the Arab Brahmin caste that Muhammad belonged to and which controlled all funds donated by piligrims as a business) would have accepted the Truth of Sikhi along with all Muslims. Sadly the fact is that they haven't and most Arabs would not have even heard of Sikhi is indicative that such a Saakhi should not be interpreted literally. Is it not questionable whether God would have chosen to end the Mughal Empire and end all hunger, suffering and oppression in the World ... instead of rotating Mecca with the effect of no real change in the beliefs of the Arabs or Muslims more generally?

Sikhi is a simple path.Without Naam simran there is no sikhi. But Gurdip johal ridicule Naam simran and say gurbani itself is naam simran.

I asked him what about those who cann't read gurbani? He does not answer to that.

UK = GPS Paji i respect Naam Simran. I believe Gurdeep Singh also does. Sikhi is a simple path. All that certain people you oppose have dared to suggest is that Naam Simran must be accompanied by practical positive action thereafter. For example, when the Khalsa Fauj fought the Mughals for Sarbat dha Bhalla, they did not solely sit down on the battlefield and do literal Naam Simran alone. Real life actions have to accompany meditation is all that the pro-Gurmat kathavachaks like Dhunda Sahib and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa are saying.

UK = As for those who cannot read Gurbani ... there is absolutely no impediment from them to realise True Gian at a far greater level than myself, yourself, Jonny Paji or Gurdeep Paji. However, there are those who might proclaim themselves as Sants and Baba's who fail to "understand" Gurbani to a lesser degree than illiterates who live their lives as paragons of truth and humilty such as Bhai Lalo Ji to cite one example.

Bhai sahib, how can a person who does not believe in existence of soul can believe in God even. I asked a missionary does he believe in soul.He replied have you seen it. Then i asked him why do you believe in God since you do not see him.

These people do not believe in God but do not say it openly as they are scared.

UK = GPS Paji if every Sikh on the planet believes in ParmAathma how can anyone deny the the existence of a "soul"? What is denied is the conventional Hindu+Muslim thinkings relating to what the soul is, as opposed to simple blanket denial of the soul in an atheistic sense. Nobody from the pro-Gurmat camp would deny God - that is merely an allegation used by their opponents to try and discredit them.

per missionary philosophy if one cann't read Gurbani he is useless.

UK = GPS Paji that's a gross misrepresentation of the pro-Gurmat position. An illiterate can have higher God realisation than the most clever pakhandi Baba. Spirituality does not necassarily correlate with education and shardha. However, when certain so-called Sants and Baba's fail to understand Gurbani and twist the Truth in an anti-Gurmat way then it's not wrong to point out that rich Jatt businessmen like Gurinder Dhillon (Radha Soami Business Empire) and Ram Rahim Sidhu (Dera Congress Sirsa) do not understand Gurbani.

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UK = GPS Paji from your words it seems like you feel that Gurdeep Singh is an non-Sikh and an atheist. I believe him to be as passionate about Sikhi and the Panth as you are.

UK = GPS Paji this is what I would say you need to consider before forming a judgement of him and where he stands in relation to you as your brother in the Panth from Ambala:

1. Is he angry about the clean chit given to a Jatt like Sajjan Kumar?

2. Is he angry about how Bhajan Lal treated our Qaum?

3. Is he angry about what happened at Hondh-Chillar?

4. Does he want all of our Panth to leave drugs, alcohol, female infanticide and biraderi discrimination behind?

5. Does he want 100% literacy within the Panth and 100% access to healthcare for gareeb members of the Panth?

If his answers to those questions match your answers, match my answers, match Jonny Paji's answers, match Sarbhjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda)'s answers, match Panthpreet Singh Khalsa answers, match SikhRi.org answers, match sikhilehar (youtube) answers, match Singh Sabha Canada's answers, match Giani Amrik Singh (Chandigarh) answers ... then why should GurSikhs see each other as two opposing parties? We are one indivisible Panth. Within that Panth there can be Unity in Diversity. Instead of labelling Amritdhari Gursikhs as non-Sikhs and atheists wouldn't we achieve more by continually striving to join forces on the issues that matter related to seeing the Panth in Chardi Kallah.

If we all saw the other Gursikh with a tyre around the other person's neck wouldn't we all defend each other without thinking about the other Gursikh's interpretation of Sikhi?

United we stand, Divided we fall! Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

We need to put our minor differences aside (though by all means we can respectfully debate them) and focus on using what our enemies have done to us in not freeing Bhai Rajoana, Professor Bhullar and others whilst freeing a proven murderer like Kishori Lal and now acquitting Sajjan Kumar ... and focus the energy and anger we have inside us on how we are going to uplift the Panth by building more schools, paying for more education for poor Sikh youth, building more drug rehabiliation and sports facilities in the villages, stamping out those who aid female infanticide and preserve the caste system as well as trying to extract what we can for the long term benefit of the Panth (as opposed to justice which we will have to get ourselves) as a 25million united front from Manmohan Singh before the next Indian General Election (which will occur within 12months maximum).

Brilliant post Khalsa Ji! Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

13 = Rather than being blunt and saying "shove off" we have to explain why they literally need to shove off.

13 = And another thing rather than paying attention to Dera Ballan we need to cement our position with the other individuals who believe in the other Bhagats.

UK = Mirch Paji if we use the 1945 Nehru+Congress+RSS definition of a Sikh then we will further lose the chance to cement our Unity with Kabirpanthi's and Jatavs from Uttar Pradesh as United memebers of the Sikh Panth (to mention but two of the communities that are more numerous than Sikhs within the original Panth). We made this mistake in Dr Ambedkar's lifetime - let's not repeat it.

Pehlvan = The fact that they have had relationships outside of marriage and dragged their parents names through the mud in the process shows that they never cared for Sikhi in the first place. We can see the results around us.....how many children of mixed marriages do you see who are into Sikhi ? They are far away from the religion, language, culture, everything. This is obvious to anyone not wearing rose-tinted barmy PC glasses.

UK = Paji it's precisely because of the attitudes many in our community hold that certain folks may well discard their connection with Sikhi. If you go back in history it is overwhelmingly likely that all of our original Sikh ancestors had so-called mixed marriages as a result of which we are alive and blessed by Sikhi today. Granted, even I would accept that there are probably less Kesdhari children from such marriages but we are looking at keeping people within the Panth - not necassarily for them to raise the next Sant Puran Singh Ji. The greater the Panth's numeric strength, the more True Khalsay will arise. If you have a pool of 100 people, then the maximum number of Amritdhari that can arise is 100. If on the other hand there is a pool of 100,000 people the odds are there should be more than 100 Khalsay amongst the same with the same level of parchaar.

UK = 100,000 Sikhs in London today. Currently around 10% have so-called mixed marriages. So this decade by your suggestion we discard 10% of them. When there's 90,000 left we discard another 20% of them. Then when there's even smaller minority left we discard possibly 50% of that even smaller minority. Genuinely Paji, I feel why the reason why you think what you do but use your logic to see that it will lead to a statistical annihilation of the Panth's number in the Diaspora and outside of our strongholds of Majha and Malwa. I was disgusted and enraged by what happened at Swindon exactly for the above reasons I'm outlining to you. Don't let emotion think for you because my emotion and yours are probably on the same page as to how beautiful Sikhi is and how can some possibly be so shallow as to ignore it's total Truth.

B9 = it's really upsetting to see young impressionable youth sitting in the Sangat, witnessing an inter-faith "Anand Karaj", it's completely confusing for them.

As a father I have kindly declined all such invitations, although i will happily attend marriages of other faiths, in their places of worship.

As a Sikh I have utmost respect for all faiths, their customs and traditions.

I have the same respect for mine, hence i disapprove of inter-faith Anand Karajs.

It's clearly a life-style choice, so should be conducted outside the realms of the Gurdwaras.

I have no problem with inter-faith marriages, conducted in a non-religious ceremony.

UK = So Birmingham Paji if these couples get married at a Hindu Mandir, you'll fully support the marriage and wish them all the best? So why oppose the couple marrying in a Gurdwara and being attached and engaged with the Sikh Panth as a consequence (via interaction with Sadh Sangat) rather than deliberately pushing them towards the Mandir or Dera etc, etc?

Chatanga = Who so ever bows before Guru Granth Sahib cannot be taken criteria to define a Sikh.

UK = This is how the RSS and Sena and the rest of our enemies slap us down Paji. To them anyone without kes or sunnath (circumcision) is automatically Hindu as that's the clever way to define themselves as an 80% majority (when in fact RSS+Sena sympathisers number 10 million throughout India tops = 1% of so-called Hindu's). Whereas, we officially number 1.8% of the Indian population yet can't seem to see that the 1945 definition suited Nehru+Congress+RSS down to a tee. It makes sense for our Panth to define a Sikh to include as many as possible. Mainstream Sikhs, Kabirpanthis, Jatavs, Sanatani's, so-called Hindu Punjabi's etc collectively number over a 100 million. Collectively that would be the biggest United population demographic in India if it ever occurred. You would never see a repeat of 1984 with those kind of numbers on our side. But basically if we look to exclude those people who have the sharda to go to Gurdwara, then we can look forward to other Hindu Jatt enemies of the Panth like Sajjan Kumar getting clean chits in the future.

Chatanga = This is absurd to think that of all the people world-wide who bow to Guru Ji, are Sikhs.

UK = Paji I think it's absurd (and insane) for us not to accept and welcome them as Sehajdhari Sikhs. This is why we have Bihari's from close to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Patna - who are natural born members of the Panth if only we explained the faith to them - ignorant about where Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was born or what Vaisakhi 1699 was about and still being defined as Hindu's after so long in Punjab.

Chatanga = We see thousands of Hindus daily bow their heads at Darbar Sahib, are they Sikhs?

UK = They are Sikhs Paji yes. The average so-called Hindu is not actually Hindu despite the RSS+Sena defining them as such for political purposes. I strongly believe that this is the psychology in your sentence above that we need to (collectively) change. According to Gurbani's definition they are Sikh. Why should we use the RSS definition to define them as Hindu's? Can you name me any other major large faith in the world which claims that devotees who attend their places of worship do not actually belong to their own faith?

Sat = As per the original post above the marriage refused was to a hindu family to have anand karaj for there children , not for an inter-faith marriage, no one wants inter-faith marriages , so why is everyone going on about inter-faith, the issue here is hindus wanted there children to have Anand karaj because some hindus have always had anand karaj in there families , i wish people would read instead of just jumping on the band wagon.

UK = That's the thing Sat Paji. The so-called "Hindu" couple want to get married in a Gurdwara yet supposedly "we" know what's inside their heart so that we can label them as Hindu's instead of accepting them as fellow Sikhs (albeit Sehajdhari presumably). I salute the North Carolina couple for realising that the Anand Karaj is a true form marriage which grants the couple true equality as opposed to the wedding ceremonies of other faiths where the woman is clearly told she is inferior to the man. Instead of welcoming such sincere people, the Committee have alienated them from the Panth. I'm glad that you actually see what's what on this issue.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

rrss = Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh sahib welcoming non-sikhs into his house

UK = Actually Paji yes I can envision that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj would because their life was replete with examples of their Universal Love for all humanity.

rrss = To those claiming that such marriage somehow boosts numbers, same people are quiet when it comes to doing sikhi parchar around the world to spread God's message and quench spiritual thirst, same people like to see sikhi as being owned by those having a sikh ancestor, same people mostly have not taken amrit. Get over it, ancestry is meaningless and void.

UK = Paji if the Sikh Panth does not have a critical mass of numbers - we can see how much Sikhi's message has flourished outside of Punjab, in the Islamic world and indeed even Sri Lanka - there won't be much Sarbat dha Bhalla going on globally. I totally agree that Sikhi comes from within, as opposed to ancestry. However, the correlation between one's parents introducing a child to Sikhi and it being in most of our lives today cannot be ignored. That's why other faiths have so many more followers - it's not due to those political faiths that have killed, murdered, raped and enslaved hundreds of millions being any better for the good of humanity.

rrss = Numbers argument is ridiculous. Muslims, Christrians have to convert before being able to have a religious wedding, and they don't have the high standard of spiritual union set by Gurbani, nor do they have Guru.

UK = The difference is Paji that there are 2.2 billion Christians (almost around 90 times the number of Sikhs) and about 1.5 billion Muslims (around 60 Muslims in the World for every Sikh). Sikhs represent 0.4% of the human race so such so-called mixed marriages will undoubtedly affect us disproportionately more. Either we adapt and use it for the advancement of the Panth or we copy the Christians and Muslims and watch how this proposed alienation of those who wish to marry in a Gurdwara backfires on us with Sikhi's influence in the Diaspora declining in numbers as a long term consequence.

NZ = Get this numbers thing out of your mind.

NZ = Use your energy and efforts on how we can get Quality rather then quantity.

UK = Bro if the Mughal and Afghan Ghallugharay don't reinforce the message of numbers that's one thing.

UK = But 1947 and 1984 should have been a wake up call for us that numbers do matter in implementing Sikhi for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = When it comes to the Amritdhari jeevan, I agree with you it's about true Amritdhari quality rather than churning out quantity by initiating certain folks who are not spiritually ready and then become a patit via meat/sharaab/scissors after a short while. That hurts our Panth's image and agreed that quality is more important for the Khalsa Panth (which is the best of the best within the overall Sikh Panth). However, when it comes to overall population it doesn't matter how fearsome the Maori warriors and their Haka is ... sheer force of numbers will dictate where the global agenda is going time after time. If you don't wish for the Qaum to suffer injustices I urge you not ignore numbers and to welcome as many into the Sikh Panth as possible (even though they may be overwhelmingly new Sehajdhari members of the Panth). If we want Khalsa Raj to offer justice, food, healthcare, equality and peace to the world's population ... we will never get to that vision of Begumpura everywhere without the numbers to back that up ... and instead we will continue crying as to why we don't get justice from the more powerful and more predominant forces in the World.

_{Jonny Paji your interpretation seems to be totally literal.}

My brief interpretation of the above, admittedly as a simple ordinary person and which does not do the depth of Gurbani any justice, is that Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj is speaking of Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj's mental liberation from the falsehoods of the fake intermissaries (between man and God) and their Holy Ganges in which they try to mentally drown and oppress those who stress devotion to the One God on the basis of Gurmat and Truth which are one and the same.

Interpreting Gurbani literally on every single occasion could be argued as being somewhat akin to believing that "Ram" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj refers to the Hindu God in human form (Ram Chander) when that quite clearly that is simply not the case. Like Gurdeep Paji said, if we go down this route of literal interpretation on every single occasion then what difference will there be between the Sikh Panth and the Christians with their magical virgin births and 72-hour timed resurrections or the Muslims with their Prophet Muhammad flying on a horse from Mecca to Jerusalem and then onward to outer space and Hinduism's millions of mythological miracles which are well documented.

Sikhi is above this anti-Gurmat philosophy and our Guru Sahib were above this, as unlike other religious figures they did not win adherents via the sword or via miracles but simply through their devotion to the One God and the philosophy of Kirat Karo Naam Japo Vand Chako.

_{My brief layman's interpretation (which can never do full justice to the true depth of Gurbani) is that Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj are not referring to the physical rotation of the Mandir per se ... but instead they are referring to the fact that God is there with the devotee who has Truth within his or her heart regardless of their physical presence outside a Temple's boundaries (rather than with those purveyors of falsehood "inside" who may happen to control a House of God at any one point such as Massa Ranghar).}

_{Thus the wretched caste-discriminating Temple Mahants, though they threw Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj physically out of the Temple ... by that very act effectively dispersed the Love of God from the Temple ... meaning that God's Truth was spiritually present in its most wondrous form in front of Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj OUTSIDE the physical shell of the Mandir. Quite clearly God was not present in the actions of those wretched Mahants (though they might have proclaimed to the outside World that they had purified their so-called House of God from the pollution of a Dalit as espoused in Hinduism's Manu Smriti).}

_{But we don't need to argue over Gurbani - you are welcome to your interpretation}

_{- and let's always re-focus on the issues where the Panth is always in full unanimous agreement.}

UK = Jonny Paji i understand and respect why you the hold the viewpoint you do. You do so because you want to see the Panth in Chardi Kallah rather than as a declining force. However, I want to respectfully put the opposite viewpoint to you for exactly the same reason ... kay Panth Chardi Kallah vich hovay.

UK = The first question Jonny Paji is ... should we take the Guru Granth Sahib Ji definition of a Sikh (jay'rah vi Guru Granth Sahib dhay a'geh matha tek'dhaii) - whosoever bows before Maharaj or the version defined in 1945 when the Nehru+Congress+RSS aim was to limit the definition of "Sikh" to as small a population as possible.

UK = Your observation is that in the case of mixed marriages you believe it is always Sikhi that gets dropped. My strong observation is that actually the opposite occurs - particularly so with spouses from Dharmic faiths. Logically if any child in this world is presented with Sikhi and any other faith out there as a 50/50 open choice I am 100% confident that the fundamental Truth of Sikhi shines through. So if statistics were shown to you that confirmed that actually the Panth has enlarged over time as a very result of the marriages you now oppose, would you change your opinion? I do agree with you that we need to be extra careful about grooms from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths - however, those crooks ought to be easily weeded out by simply asking them to disavow Slavery and Slaveowners which the Torah, Bible and Quran all actively support. The children from such marriages will claim to be Sikh depending on how welcoming we as a Panth make them feel. If one's parents are not allowed to seek Maharaj's blessing at a Gurdwara for their marriage that will result in a near 100% exodus of the children of such so-called mixed marriages away from Sikhi.

UK = Like Gurdeep Paji said, we cannot restrict Maharaj away from the Sangat for fear of the message it will send to certain girls. The certain girls in question who you wish to control will marry who they want anyway. It goes without saying that Sikhi is the only faith that grants 100% equality to males and females ... so it puzzles me, as much as it does you, as to why somebody would see better qualities in an erstwhile non-Sikhi-practising spouse (which is something that can change due to the marriage with the correct pyaar waalah parchaar). But nevertheless that reality exists so we have to be practical about addressing it. Year on year there will be an increase in so-called mixed marriages. You know that, I know that, we all know that. The question is do we alienate an ever increasing percentage of people away from Sikhi or do we use this demographic reality as a way to adapt and positively grow the Panth's numbers for Sarbat dha Bhalla. This issue is crucial because it's vital to the future of Sikhi in the Diaspora in particular. In our overseas strongholds of UK+Canada we number a mere 0.9%. We don't even hit 1% of the population. It's 100% inevitable that so-called mixed marriages can only increase in such circumstances. So the question is whether it's better to engage with people so that may link themselves and their children with Sikhi or guarantee that they cut all connection to Sikhi forever?

UK = Sevadar Paji thussi Bedford da haal dekho ... bakhre bakhre Gurdware kitheh pay nay ... and now if the grand-daughter of one of those fooled by Indira's pet Gurbachana wants to get married in a Gurdwara is that not a good sign of someone returning to the true fold? If the groom wishes to get married in a Gurdwara - as opposed to a Bhawan - bowing down before Maharaj that shows that he is not a Hindu like his parents or his name may indicate. By the way I wholeheartedly agree with Luton Gurdwara's suggested code of conduct whereby Singh and Kaur would be the names at point of marriage - and this is something that we would do well to extend to help wipe out gotra use in the UK at least.

UK = Paji I strongly believe that via your exclusionary approach that for every single female that you might compel into marrying within the faith another twenty will cut their links with the faith altogether. The end result is a demographic weakening of the Panth. The other suggestion accepts that mixed marriages are going to be an ever increasing reality and works on a proactive approach to engage and link the couple with Sikhi and the Panth as much as possible. If we had adopted your approach 200 years ago then we would still number today not much above the 5% in Punjab as we were at the start of the 19th century. Instead by 1947 we comprised 13% of Punjabi's and as result of the Partitions we now number a majority of the population in Majha and Malwa (and approximately 1 in 6 of the historic Punjab populations from Pakistani Punjab, East Punjab, Haryana and Himachal).

For sake of girls thinking we cannot deny any one coming to Gurdwara for marriage.

UK = 100% agreed Gurdeep Paji

Jonny = Rather I would argue that we are giving a green light to Sikh youth to leave Sikhi(through inter faith marriages) by encouraging these inter faith marriages to occur in a Gurdwara.

UK = Paji try to ignore the Nehru+RSS influenced 1945 definition of a Sikh which sought to limit the Sikh Panth's population by definition. Look at the Gurmat definition of an ordinary Sikh from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and focus your thoughts on the children of such marriages, given the inevitable reality that one day this century such marriages will be in the majority - rather than the minority. One method will ensure that 100% of the children will discard any connection with Sikhi. The other way means we can move out of being defined as an ethnic faith and truly be observed as a Universal faith that exists for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Our Panth's collective deficiency in terms of parchaar and explaining the Truth of Sikhi and what Moolmantar stands for is what makes Sikhi meaningless for certain youth - not permitting two souls to wed before Maharaj is not the cause of the malaise you fear Paji.

Jonny = I have relatives both in India and the west whose daughters have married out of faith. In the case of the Indian relatives, their daughter married a Hindu man. Today she has no faith in Sikhi, she has raised her children as Hindus. In the case of the relatives in the west, my relative's daughter married a Muslim man, and she also has no faith in Sikhi and has raised her child as a Muslim. In both case Anand Karaj ceremony was performed in the Gurdwara.

UK = Paji i think your family experiences are exceptional. I'm convinced that in the majority of marriages where the couple's parents are Hindu and Sikh respectively ... Sikhi is the path adopted by the majority of the children when the parents choose to marry in a Gurdwara. Worshipping the One God alone or a batch of mythical stone idols should present an easy choice to most in the West. Fair enough your rishthaydaar in the West chose to raise her child in a faith which openly gives men permission in the Quran to beat their wives and openly keep extra slavegirls (or kaffir consorts) and where women are openly and clearly considered inferior to men. That's her choice and that's on her and to an extent it's our fault collectively that Sarbat dha Bhalla counts for less in her mind than an openly anti-female creed where the founder himself Prophet Muhammad had 13 wives and multiple slave girls for his own enjoyment besides. However, due to the cultural changes taking place it is inevitable that, with increasing personal freedoms, more and more Muslim females in the West will voluntarily leave their parents' religion of their own free will the minute the Muslim honour-killing culture starts to lose it's grip in the West.

Jonny = We cannot strengthen our faith by diluting it by encouraging inter faith marriages. If anything this type of encouragement is a recipe for weakening our community. Point is, we are not stopping anyone from marrying who they chose, they are free to marry who they want.

UK = Paji nobody is encouraging anyone into mixed marriages. It's about accepting the reality of what is happening and trying to bring a positive demographic and spiritual outcome from that for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

Jonny = To date I have not seen an inter religious couple who had an Anand Karaj follow SIkhi after marriage. In fact all the cases of inter religious marriages I have seen their children have always been raised as non-Sikhs. And living in the west I have seen plenty of inter religious marriages. So you can forget that allowing non Sikhs to have an Anand Karaj is going to turn them into Sikhs. I think we should utilize more effective methods of doing parchar instead of encouraging the mockery of the Anand Karaj ceremony.

Jonny = Personally I like the way Sikhs are doing parchar in M.P., Mathana. That is a sure and effective way to do parchar that will strengthen our community.

UK = Paji I think your viewpoint has been discoloured by your own anecdotal observations. Statistically, I don't think your supposition holds up. I strongly believe that Sikhi is a logical Truth which if given equal exposure will always be chosen in more than 50% of cases. Your viewpoint ensures 100% of children of such marriages will stay away from Sikhi. By using the Gurbani definition of who is a Sikh I can guarantee you the Panth should strengthen numerically thereby enabling us to do more for Sarbat dha Bhalla rather than less.

UK = Let's look at Madhya Pradesh situation with a view to the future Jonny Paji. What AKJ have done there is superb. However, the reality is that Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh as a total number 0.2% ie 1 person in every 500 in Madhya Pradesh is Sikh. Long term do we realistically feel that the new Madhya Pradesh Sikhs will only marry others whose parents are also Sikh given the demographic reality there? If we can accept that in the long term they probably won't then we need to focus on how to keep the youth strong - not by way of preventing the Anand Karaj's you wish to stop but by ensuring that every Sikh male or female grows up knowing that their faith is not something to be compromised on (because of the equality, opposition to injustice, commitment to humanity etc, etc Sikhi stands for). In short, why would anybody want to raise their children worshipping stone idols whether they be in Benares or Mecca or Bethlehem? Sikhi says male and female are 100% equal whereas no other faith says the same. Sikhi is for Sarbat dha Bhalla - whereas the other faiths claim that if you do not follow their founder's creed one will end up burning in Hell. What legacy do Christianity, Islam and Hinduism have to actually offer the World apart from having killed tens of millions in the name of their respective religions, murdered tens of millions via Slavery and oppressing millions of Dalits via the almost just as wretched Caste System? Copying the Abrahamic faiths method of matrimonial apartheid will never advance the Sikh Panth because our faith is a totally different spiritual path for the benefit of all humanity whether Sikh, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jain etc that inspires loyalty from within and which cannot be forced but can only be encouraged via pyaar and engagaement with the Sadh Sangat.

I hope this helps phonetically (and spiritually) too: