jashb

4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

And people do play down (or are ignorant) of the economic aspect of the Khalistani movement too. When it was going on, it was directly alluded to. A lot of the changes being asked for, did relate to central government's agricultural policies. Which were obviously designed to benefit the agricultural community. To oversimplify everything that happened along purely religious lines is plain wrong.  

I think this is true. However, I for one would never seek to play it down or deny it.

I believe that the thinking behind this was that a relaxation of government policies towards the agricultural sector would have provided real and tangible benefits which would have filtered down to the the manual labourers working on the farm and the petty peasants owning 1-2 acres or taking them on lease, because let's face it, an outright and overwhelming majority of Sikhs in Panjab were and are engaged in agriculture and the proportion involved during the 1980s would have been even higher.

In this sense, I think the panthic committee were being practical to incorporate these into their demands. I sincerely believe this was an innocent measure proposed to make life easier for the overwhelming majority of the Kaum that resides in Panjab. I don't believe that this was at all sinister or underhanded in any way. This proposal practically reflected the demography of the Panth, and to a large extent it remains the case.

For an organisation whose members were essentially always on the run and a fire fight away from certain death, they lacked the time and resources to come up with an optimal economic solution for Panjab. I think they simply had to make do with the limited resources they had. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but it doesn't always work out perfectly in practice.

It is another matter altogether that had these demands been met, the indian national congress funding large landowners owning 100+ acres, their own worst enemies, would have been the first to benefit. But it's a consequence of any fiscal policy designed to cut taxes on the poor that the wealthy will benefit first.

In this sense, accusing them of adopting these policies simply out of a sense of "tribal loyalty" so to speak is unfair, and it would have been counterproductive in any case.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I am unaware of such a thing. I'd say the worst enemies of progressive segments of rural society are ironically its wealthiest members, who are perfectly satisfied with the status quo and don't wish to rock the boat in any way.

It is these casteist elitists that are the real problem, and they should be the object of our ire. I believe they are the ones who bought wholesale into and started the whole superiority complex and separate race bs. As an aside, notice how the very wealthy ones that have the time and money to waste on producing music willingly do bahman's work in culturally propagating this same message through the lyrics of the music they produce on bahman's behest. It has not gone unnoticed how the so called "high caste" hindu elitists control the "music industry" in Panjab, and I believe it is no coincidence that every second track produced there cites the term "jat". Popular music is a powerful medium for propagation of a subliminal message. But given our people's addiction to bhangra, getting them to accept that a message detrimental to the Kaum is being propagated and consequently to exercise some self restraint in relation to it is largely a wasted effort. There needs to be a popular alternative instead.

The petty peasant followers of these casteist elitists are simply hangers on who are pointlessly looking up to them to confer some small petty benefits on them. They are simply being exploited. They will turn elsewhere if they are presented with a potentially better system.

We should not forget however that the panthic committee promised to recruit only Dalits/Sikhs to all state sector vacancies for the first 10 years after independence. That would have certainly annoyed a certain prominent privileged class I can think of, which means it is no convenient coincidence that their opposition to it was also the most vociferous.

Even today, easing economic conditions for the agricultural sector, or paying small farmers a better rate, possibly subsidised by progressive taxation on large landowners, would be beneficial in preventing thousands of suicides. At the very least, they should not be prevented as they have been since india's conception from marketing their produce privately, which is a blatantly negative intervention and a complete farce. Our people are perfectly capable of private enterprise when their hands are not tied.

However, the government's attitude to the agricultural sector is not about to change. It views it as a cash cow, and given that its members are to uneducated to know better, they will continue milking them for as long they can. In this sense, rather than waiting for the government to change its tune, mass scale industrialisation in Panjab would be a better and more immediate solution, and is an outstanding and urgent priority.

Having said that, we should not overlook the fact the panthic committee were foresighted enough to realise that Panjab would badly require the proliferation of industry. This was a key demand that still hasn't been met some 30 years later. This is blatantly discriminatory as Haryana, probably the most backward state in northern india after UP and one that confers no special benefits other than it being largely non-Sikh, has received the lion's share of industry in northern india at Panjab's expense, even though Panjab has a countload of factors in its favour, such as a far more numerous and higher educated workforce, most of whom are consequently unemployed or underemployed.

I think if the whole movement was conducted today, we'd be able to handle it a lot better. But that's hindsight for you, and in any case, other circumstances have changed. Given the level of drug dependency enforced on Panjab's potentially productive youth on a level akin to that deployed to depress the Chinese during british occupation, it is a matter of debate whether we'd have sufficient numbers to rise to the challenge now.

3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Pendus rarely seem capable of rising above petty tribal loyalties. So any action they take will only be designed for their own benefit, as much as they might try and wrap it up in some cover of religiosity. All the other Sikhs see this. That's one reason why they get little support. 

 

I disagree, and you are making a wild generalisation here.

The allegation being made, if I have understood it correctly, is that "pendus" only undertake direct action when some sort of personal benefit accrues to themselves out of it, and they subsequently have the gall to claim to have undertaken the same on behalf of the Panth.

As all of the Shaheed Singhs are labelled with this derogatory term and would obviously fit it by your criteria anyhow, let's consider a case in point.

We all know who was killed in the November 1984 Anti-Sikh pogroms. The innocent people massacred outside Panjab hundreds of miles away in places like Delhi and Kanpur were almost exclusively poor urban labourer Sikhs and middle class urban dwelling Sikhs. They were not rural Sikhs.

Yet these atrocities moved rural Sikhs like Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha so much so that they felt compelled to essentially embrace death in order to travel to Delhi to eliminate the two perpetrators of this genocide who were the most instrumental on the ground in organising and committing the massacres of urban Sikhs, that these rural Sikhs had no personal relation with.

Explain what personal benefit for taking these actions accrued to Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha, and thousands of others like them after 1984.

1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Apnay aren't half as clever as they like to think they are (in relation to other prominent communities/race), and apnay's relativily childlike deviousness gets seen from 10 miles away but other more prudent, strategic communities.  

I don't agree with everything you've got to say. However, what you have pointed to here is a valid point.

Sophistication is not a trait overly associated with our people. I think this is a contributory factor to the way our people are slow to pick up on others' hidden inner motives.

We have largely been dumbed down into doe-eyed overly honest innocent kaffirs/malechh waiting to be taken advantage of. I believe that certain elements within the Kaum have deliberately propagated this honesty and innocence via distorted Parchar that has become so common now that it's almost fully accepted. I'm talking about the forceful prioritisation and pronouncement of the virtues of innocence and honesty in all our doings at the expense of sensible and necessary political expediency.

I think this played a part in turning some of our people into useful id1ots ready to do the bidding of others, out of a misguided and almost groomed sense of duty, entirely failing to comprehend the concealed inner motivations of those that were and are using and abusing them.

What is sad about our people's wholesale acceptance of such shortsighted behaviour is not only that it leaves them at the mercy of predators with no such misconceptions, but it actually flies in the face of Sikhi. We were actually given the hukam to instruct ourselves and our families in Raaj Niti by Dashmesh Pita. Yet we have accepted what is taught to us by fake sants and babas who have never seen a day's fight in their lives.

Because for too long we have not been sophisticated enough to practice the art of warfare with concealed weapons and motives, we have failed to recognise it when others like abrahamics and revived hindus were and are doing just that against us.

There is a very true saying that it takes one to recognise one.

What I wouldn't do, is generalise that all rural Sikhs or "pendus" to use the urban hindu casteist elitist derogatory term for them are easily manipulable and that urban Sikhs are immune to this.

I think it's far more serious than that. I think all Sikhs are prone to being used and abused like this. And I think the problem is at the heart of our religious/cultural dissemination.

12 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I can't really speak for the motives of SGPC.

I would be careful to keep calling pendu Sikhs thick. Because when it does come to action they won't over think like the erudite Urban Sikhs, they will just act. They will act first and think later.

Seconded.

We have to be careful not to unthinkingly let the smug deprecatory attitude of the urban hindu casteist elite towards all Sikhs as mere "pendus" to get embedded into our own Sikh psyche.

Due to nonsensical illogical hindu casteist beliefs deliberately introduced, propagated and enforced by bahmans within the Kaum with the aim of keeping the Kaum disunited and weak, this has sadly to a large extent already happened. You just have to look at this forum for evidence of how much our own people casually insult each other with this derogatory term.

The more affluent sections of our Kaum have certainly already imbibed the hindu casteist elitist perception of rural Sikhs into their own perspective. This needs to stop and be reversed. We should not willingly and knowingly continue to fall into their trap.

When large sections of the Kaum are uttering the same derogatory remarks for our own people as our enemies, you should recognise that something is seriously wrong.

No well meaning Sikh should belittle their fellow Sikh brethren as "pendu". By all means, remove their ignorance, if that is what you perceive. But don't attack the very reason they came to be born into Sikhi. Instead, attack the atheist lifestyle of our urban elitist enemies.

Think about it. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Ji Maharaj themselves did manual labour on the farm. The most respected early companions of Guru Ji were from a rural background. The most respected early Sikhs were from a rural background. The defenders of Sikhi were from a rural background.

The root of Sikhi is in the rural landscape of Panjab. It was accepted in undivided Panjab, and still largely applies, that the urban industrial elitist was a hindu, the urban labourer was muslim, and the rural labourer was Sikh.

It was two rural Sikhs that beheaded Massa Ranghar. It was two rural Sikhs that killed Arun Vaidya, Lalit Maken and Arjun Dass. It was two rural Sikhs that burnt Paapi Ajit Poohla before he could be released from prison. The lethal power of our rural brethren is something to harness, not criticise.

So what are we unwittingly saying when we casually insult someone using this derogatory term? Should we accept it to describe our Guru Sahiban and Shaheeds too?

Our enemies well understand the physical threat that our rural brethren provide, and it is for this reason they cuss them while at the same stereotyping them as unthinking violent savages. No. They are just as capable of intellect as the urban elitists. Furthermore, they are far more inclined to act out what is necessary than our comfortable, scholarly, polished brethren.

11 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Shiv sena in punjab is pure evil . I tell you if sikhs keep migrating the way it is now from punjab, we're going to be next zoroastrians of punjab. And lets not forget that hindus are always hiding in bush to wait for the moment when they can reclaim back the punjab. As their numbers grow, so will their influence in politics and ultimately Hindu hegemony over punjab , which even badal was afraid of . I am glad the badals lost the elections.

 And it won't stop at that. They will like to move back the hindu idols to darbar sahib, as it was before the reformist Singh Sabha movement we don't appreciate as much as we should !

I don't think relations between sikhs or hindus are anyways better. We can pretend otherwise.

Ofcourse , Hindus started all the game of marrying with sikhs just so that they can always control us.

 

The hindu agenda in panjab and viz-a-viz the Sikh nation has always been apparent, as you correctly recognise. But Badal being afraid of it? Really? What do you know about this that is not publicly out there?

Badal & company seemed quite satisfied with it all when they were in power. All they seem to care out about is their ability to emotionally blackmail poor Sikhs too uneducated to know better into voting for them while continuing to mint it from various businesses set up at their expense.

Here's some pictures of them rushing to a few of their anti-Sikh rss hindu cow urine drinking brethren when some dhushts got wet recently.

They don't look remotely concerned with the proliferation of the hindu agenda in panjab to me. They look concerned about losing the saala haraami being treated and the rss head in the huge portrait they are paying homage to.

Mere letters and phone calls without the weight of a very real power to replace these corrupt committee men are of limited use.

These shady guys in the committee are hardly going to desist and comply due to the concerns of a handful of objectors, some of whom might not even be part of the sangat, no matter how eloquently written. They only care for their power. So you have to adapt and respond accordingly. Hit them where it hurts.

At the same time as holding this sharabi kebabi committee to account, it is of critical importance for you now to be building up a counter group to contest and replace them at the next elections.

And here we encounter the elephant in the room. Namely, the corrupt casteist constitution of this Gurdwara that excludes anyone from outside of the so called illogical nonsensical and non existent in reality Ramgarhia "caste" from standing and voting.

To effect real positive change in the long run, it is entirely insufficient to merely get Meat and Alcohol off the proverbial menu. That is short term thinking.

It is of the utmost urgency that you attack the real source of their power this corrupt casteist constitution.

Otherwise, and I guarantee you this, nothing will ever really change. Family block voting will stagnate committee power in the same corrupt anti-Sikh hands, and in five years time you will again be faced with the same indian national congress supporting fake Sikh crooks pushing through their anti Gurmat agenda onto a sangat that can largely do nothing about it because its hands are tied behind its backs because they can't vote them out.

On 02/05/2017 at 11:38 PM, Singh1989 said:

lol whas with the (married to Amritdhari Singh) every single line?

That's the entire comedic genius of it. Lol 

I am sorry to hear of the difficulties that you and the sangat of this Gurdwara are facing from your corrupt Gurdwara committee. That does not mean to say, however, that I am at all surprised.

There are some critical questions that the sangat of this Gurdwara need to ask of their corrupt committee as well as themselves.

* Who gave these corrupt committee members who have no respect for Guru Ji the undeserved power control and authority to take decisions in unashamed spite of Guru Ji when without the presence of Guru Ji this Gurdwara would not even exist?

* Did these corrupt committee members even bother to consult Guru Ji to see what Guru Ji says about their proposal before they made their decision, or did they completely neglect/ignore, and ride roughshod over Guru Ji's authority in order to open a Meat and Sharaab hall regardless for their own unscrupulous and sinful financial gain while blatantly violating Sikhi Rehat?

* Have these corrupt committee members even bothered to apply Sikhi to their own lives? Do they maintain Sikhi Rehat? Are they and their family members in Sikhi Saroop? Are they even able to recite Nitnem?

* Do these corrupt committee members refrain from Alcohol and Kuttha Maas in line with Sikhi Rehat or are they themselves committing the very same transgressions they wish to legitimise by enforcing them on Gurdwara premises?

* Is this not the same so called "Ramgarhia" caste named Gurdwara where a disgracefully casteist President/Secretary, whose mouth should have been washed out from the inside with soap, cursed a member of the sangat with an abhorrent term used to denigrate a person whose heritage is of a so called "low caste"?

* Why has the sangat knowingly and willingly accepted the use of a blatant caste term to name this Gurdwara? Do they explicitly or tacitly support the superiority of the so called "Ramgarhia" caste?

* Does the sangat of this Gurdwara fail to comprehend the hypocrisy and absurdity of its commemorating under the so called "Ramgarhia" caste name Vaisakhi 1699 - the very event in which Guru Ji in contrast to their repugnant caste name destroyed the illogical hindu caste system to create on the orders of Paramatma the casteless Khalsa Panth to which they falsely pledge allegiance?

* What use is it for the sangat of this Gurdwara to claim to be Amritdhari or Sikhs at all when they reject Guru Ji's clear injunction against the illogical hindu caste system? Are the sangat of this Gurdwara any more than hindus disgracefully disguised in the garb of Sikhs of the Guru?

* Will the sangat of this Gurdwara who are eligible to vote in its elections per its casteist constitution ever enforce casteless Sikhi Rehat?

* Will the sangat of this Gurdwara continue to defy/neglect/ignore casteless Sikhi Rehat for no apparent aim other than to preserve the convenience of their corrupt control over the the finances of this business they contemptuously run on the name of the very destroyer of idols and caste like they have continously and shamelessly done now for the past five decades?

* Will the sangat of this Gurdwara now do the honorable thing and admit that they reject Vaisakhi 1699, and consequently declare that they are not Sikhs of the Guru? Will they now return Guru Ji's Saroop, take down Nishaan Sahib, and revert to praying to impotent useless hindu idols like vishwakarma like hindus in pursuit of casteist illogical hindu ideology that the abundant majority of them knowingly and willingly cling to?

I say that the actions of this corrupt committee are exactly what is needed. Needed, that is, to kick sense into the sangat members' heads.

On 01/05/2017 at 0:42 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

2 questions:

1) If Preet Kaur Gill is married to an Amritdhari why is it that Preet Kaur Gill still doesn't have enough akal to stop cutting her hair to just below the ears ?

2) If Preet Kaur Gill is married to an Amritdhari, what kind of amritdhari is he that keeps a wife with her hair cut, styled and dyed ?

 

12 hours ago, BhForce said:

I have no idea of what set of circumstances may have led to Gill's husband being Amritdhari (if indeed he is), and his wife not. But your use of "keeps a wife with her hair cut" seems to imply that he should divorce her. Now, exactly what great example of Sikhism would that be?

There's been a spectacularly massive misunderstanding all around on this thread.

Firstly, our quick-to-jump-to-conclusions buddy from West London confused Preet Kaur Gill, the prospective parliamentary candidate for Birmingham Edgbaston, and the named subject of this discussion, with Neena Gill, the current member of european parliament for West Midlands, who has nothing to do with either the Birmingham Edgbaston seat, or this discussion.

You can rely on jigsaw's confident assertion that Preet Kaur Gill's hair is cut to "just below the ears". Evidently it isn't whereas Neena Gill's is.

Secondly, nobody recognised his mix-up, which is inexplicable given that we have so many members from the West Midlands area.

Thirdly, right on cue, plenty of people piled in like a car crash on a motorway to deliver pointless rebuttals, in the process providing undue credit to some poor bloke who doesn't have the first clue what he's on about.

All the while the poor bloke's been barking up the wrong tree.

The fact that jagsaw subsequently went into an uncharacteristically silent "maun vart" should have been conspicuous enough to be self explanatory.

On 01/05/2017 at 0:42 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

A simple Google internet search reveals plenty of pictures and news stories of Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) and yet, strangely, there is nothing in which Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) says anything about the plight of Sikhs in Punjab.....or the Sikh genocide....or the right of Sikhs.

If Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) wants our votes then Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) needs to understand that we are not uneducated performing monkeys that will vote for her just because she is Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh). For Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh) to come onto this forum and expect our votes just on the basis that she has the word 'Kaur' in her name (and is married to an Amritdhari Singh) without telling us ANY of the things she believes in or stands for tells us exactly what she thinks of us on an intellectual level. Best of luck to Preet Kaur Gill (who is married to an Amritdhari Singh).

 

Mega lol. Hilariously superb satire. Talk about laying it on thick.

Only one way, jagsaw, it could have possibly been topped.

Perhaps, if it was, actually, in any way, true.

Just a small pity then that it's entirely off.

Before you launch into a massively hysterical rant, make some attempt at the very least to get your subject right. Lol 

On 30/03/2017 at 10:36 PM, StarStriker said:

Committees can fork out £1000s on unnecessarily tarmacing an already tarmaced gurdwara car park, yet cant buy these properties up n make em into sum sort of sikh related shops, h@rami saleh.

Useless and unnecessary expenditure like the sort you have referred to above is deliberately incurred by sharabi kebabi committee men in return for kickbacks. Straight corruption at its easiest and simplest.

They simply look after number one, which is why they can shell out unnecessary £000's, but can't even organise free Sikhi parchar.

There was a case at my local Gurdwara where this exact thing happened two years ago under the old committee.

Completely useless, unnecessary, and unrequired work was incurred at the cost of £000's for a car park that was going to be built over anyway. Worse still, the dodgy contractor wasn't even paid from the Gurdwara bank account. This is what made this case even more blatant, contemptuous and offensive than the usual embezzlement of Gurdwara funds.

The General Secretary instead claimed he made the payment on behalf of the Gurdwara personally. Yeah right. They took sangat for straight fools. This was their mistake.

It followed from his claim that he needed reimbursing. Being the man in control, he then easily obtained a cheque for £000's from the Gurdwara Treasurer, which he paid directly to himself.

When the sangat discovered this outrage, the dodgy General Secretary was pursued and proof of the alleged expense was demanded. He was asked to provide any sort of document to verify the expense he allegedly incurred, e.g. an invoice, contract with the builders, or receipt. The old bugger was hardly going to supply one was he? He would have simply incriminated himself.

So the old committee sat tight and saw their term out. Evidence was never supplied.

This incident was the tip of the iceberg. There is a long history of overpayments to the "old boys" network posing as contractors and using vastly inflated contracts with these budday (and that is meant as a matter of fact not an insult).

But the opposition from sangat was too strong, determined and active to take no for an answer. We forced them out at the last elections.

This is what corrupt Gurdwara committee Presidents and General Secretaries need.

These shady types masquerading in the garb of Sikhs, to steal sangat funds and respect they don't deserve, are unafraid of the Guru and don't respond to brotherly advice or dharam. You have to relentlessly and publicly challenge, expose them, warts-and-all for who they really are, and force them out. This is the only way.