S4NGH

The Ottoman Empire ruled by the law of Hanafi were responsible for the cities of Mecca and Medina and the empire lasted from 1229-1923. In an article of mughal-ottoman relations during the reign of Akbar an interesting note on Hajj in an early document by an imperial ottoman firman stated that:

'No Muslims and believers in the unity of God should be hindered in any way if he wishes to visit the Holy Cities and circumambulate the luminous Ka'ba.'

Mecca: a city in saudi.

Kaaba: the black box.

Masjid al-haram: the holy mosque with in which the Kaaba is located.

Bhai Gurdas jis vaar and writings by other authors speak of Mecca moving. Not the mosque or the black box itself.

In terms of Gurbani, mecca haji and kaaba are defined in terms of spirituality.

Mecca is the mind, kaaba is the heart and haji is someone who goes from being manmukh to gurmukh.

Guru Nanak jis sandles were kept inside the mosque by Qazi Ruknud-din who wanted a memento of Guruji. A long while after Gurujis visit, the qazi wanted to meet Guruji again and so took the sandles with him on his long journey to india so that on meeting Guruji, Guruji would instantly remember the qazi from the sandles. Guruji however had moved on and so they never met again. There were then kept at his shrine in Uch, Bahawalpur Pakistan.

Theres a kicking off every weekend. Police are now pretty much a part of the sangat lol only last weekend there were 7 police cars!! How embarassing.

You live in canada, call the cops. Whats the problem. Dont take things into your own hands. Theres a system in place. Make use of it. This isnt india we're talking about.

A beautiful example of modern sikh architecture, recently completed, The Guru Nanak Darbar in Dubai.

Hello fellow Architect

Can i be cheeky and ask where in central london this new Gurdwara is going to be? How exciting!

To get a better understanding of the layout, facilities and activities that take place with in a Gurdwara, I would recommend a visit to one of your locals

Theres quite an old one in Shephards bush/holland park- Queensdale road, W11 4SG.

And then theres a massive one in southall, Havelock road which is quite impressive.

A Gurdwara is open to everyone regardless of their race sex religion etc. There are some rules you must adhere to- cover your head, remove your shoes. You must not be under the influence of intoxicants and must not have any on you. Tobacco alcohol etc forbidden on premises. Other than that, pop by, ask someone to give you a tour, take a few snaps to help with your project, ask a few questions and have a free veg meal one the house Im sure you'll enjoy your visit!

Please keep us posted on your project! Very exciting

Thanks

I think the real lesson to be learned here is how blunt our kirpans are.

Last year we had 4 UK Sikhs trying to cut the throat of Gen. Brar with a kirpan that turned out to be as blunt as a children's toy sword.

Now we have dozens of people visibly hacking away at each other's body parts with long swords resulting in relatively minor injuries.

I think the world, and that includes right wing hindus and muslims, can clearly see that our kirpans are actually as lethal as a freshly baked baguette.

LOL

How can u be forced to do anything. Ur nearing 30! Doesnt seem like ur ready to get married mate. Unless u were at gun point or something...

Can we leave everything we have here and return to our home?

Everyones calling out for a khalistan whilst they sit in the comfort of their homes abroad. Who would return once this khalistan is created when no ones willing to return now. Yeah badal will be gone, no more indian gov influence etc etc but our people are greedy power hungry. Theres a 100 more badals willing to take his place. And drugs. Whos going to stop them being smuggled or grown? Are the 70 odd percent just going to forget their addictions?

We sit here abroad with all the comforts life could possibly offer. Free education free healthcare safety protection a none bias system human rights everything. How many of us are willing to leave all this? Leave this luxury to return home to face the situation.

The golden bird has left its nest. The sweet smell of the rose has faded away.

Punjabis are too busy trying to get out of punjab. Whos going to take care of it? The Bayae and the bahmans. We've shot ourself in the foot. Everyones trying to get into england or usa canada australia but whos actually stood there and faced the situation instead of running from it. Its all about money these days. Punjabis will soon make a minority in punjab whilst the bahman b*st*rds bleed it dry.

This whole situation is so sad. Is punjab a lost cause?

Well its no surprise such buildings face opposition. Its asthough theyve been lifted out of india and randomly plonked in the middle of nowhere. O freshies.

We need to take control of our heritage before its all taken over by the likes of sgpc et al. and whitewashed. I think in india, it is perhaps too late. The majority of sikh architecture in pakistan however is untouched. Yes its decaying badly but there is still a lot of hope.

Karseva wale, although their intentions may be good, they do way too much damage. We need artisans to complete these tasks. And a lot of money.

Why restore them into gurdwaras? Sikhs are a minority of a minority in pakistan. Yes, where there is a significant sikh populations, by all means restore/renovate/preserve/conserve the gurdwaras to be used as gurdwaras but elsewhere, why not convert them into museums? Educational institutes? Libraries? So people can learn about us. So future generations can see our heritage, preserved. Instead of the whitewashed structures in india.

I think we need to look beyond their original use. We have plenty of gurdwaray. Plenty.

Let me just give some background info on my circumstances. I moved to London about 12 years ago and I have never really fully fitted in even though I tried. I have just had enough of the rude people here. Where I live there are mostly black/white/Asian people.

Due to the large number of black people in London. The culture people follow is largely a black culture. ie the music the fashion and even they way they talk has become a dialect of Jamaican origin.

I am originally from a town close to Manchester where people tend to be alot more reserved and respectful. I feel like I don't belong here. Its not like i want to go back up north as ive lived here so long. i just feel i don't belong anywhere even if I moved back. but something tells me I would be happier back close to the north somewhere. I live in a predominantly black and white area in the east of London. anyone got any ideas where I could move that is more friendlier then in east London. I know areas up north are also bad in certain parts.

At these times i just feel like packing my bags and going back to Amritsar in india where my home region is back home.

Wow 12 years is a long time yet you still feel out of place. Maybe you just miss being up north? I moved from yorkshire to london. Every now and then i go back up to visit family. I think i need that mix of country and city. I love london. I love how everyone keeps themselves to themselves. Busy in their own lives. Even the dogs dont give you a second gaze! Whereas in the country everyones in everyones business. But at times i miss the greenery. Trees and grass and open skies. Each to their own i guess.

Veer it really comes down to where in london you are. Londons possibly the most diverse city ever. When im in london, i feel like im abroad but with all the british comforts. Another thing i love about london. Everyone belongs. Everyones foreign. I feel more at home. I guess spending so much time up north amongst the majority white folk, i long for that sense of belonging.

Hmm friendly areas in london, Holland Park- my fave place to be, Shephards Bush in and around westfields, Kensington just about anywhere . Anywhere thereabouts is good for me. Im sure there are many more places. You just have to go out there and explore.

Maybe a trip Home, Panjab would do you some good?

Alternatively, you could read the Guru online? Obviously it makes sense to start from the beginning though

Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom are found in several statutes. Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation is forbidden. Any communication which is threatening, abusive or insulting, and is intended to harass, alarm, or distress someone is forbidden. The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both.

VJKK VJKF

If there is a security search/metal detectors etc you should tell them up front. If not, personally id walk straight through.

I would like to think you shouldnt have a problem since the kirpan is allowed in canadian court rooms, gov buildings etc

It is said that the Khalsa Tract Society changed some of Giani Gian Singh Ji's works. There is a proportion of sheer inconsistency amongst some of them, especially the Naveen Panth Prakash.

I love your site veer. Some amazing articles on there!

Muslim males seem to be alot more mature then sikh males at a younger age. This is due to muslim casturation of genitalia. When one is abstinent from sexual activity due to the above. The power one has is imence. One becomes a man much quicker. Hence he has a mans brain instead of a teenagers. They use this to manipulate girls and convert them. Its all to do with tostestrone . Keep the precious semen fluid within and you to will become stronger then ever. Just stay abstent from masturbation for 7 days continually and feel how powefull you become. The power is wirhin you. I stopped and now I can have any girl I desire. Listen to these words beforw its to late.

Haha for real?! "Muslim casturation of genitalia"! Aka circumcision? Lol bro the "benefits" of Genital Mutilation were refuted long ago. Step into the 21st century.

LOL "the precious semen fluid". O gosh i so hope our sisters dont read this! Ejaculation causes no change in "Tostestrone" (aka testosterone) levels. Semen does not contain testosterone either. Unless you have a special sort?

Muslims use circumcision to manipulate and convert girls?! Wow...lol thats a new one.

Also veeray, now you've given up masturbation, perhaps you have more time to work on your spelling? Instead of having "any girl [you] desire"?

Puhaha thats made my day! Thanks

http://www.tapoban.org/webforum/read.php?1,6465

Foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib: Sri Guru Arjan Dev or Sai Mian Mir?
Taken from “Sri Harimandar Sahib Sunehri Itihaas” published by Dharam Parchaar Committee SGPC
Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org


Foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib

Sri Guru Arjan Dev jee and Baba Buddha jee consulted with the leading Sikhs of the time and set a day for setting the foundation stone of Sri Harimandar Sahib. A great congregation took place of 1 Maagh, 1654 Bk. The Sarovar had been drained in preparation and the divaan took place in the sarovar itself. Sri Guru jee explained the meaning of Harimandar and the importance. After distributing karah parshaad and invoking the first four Satgurus, Baba Buddha jee asked Guru Arjan Dev jee to place the first brick.

Sri Guru Arjan Dev jee with his hands then placed the first brick:

ਇਮਿ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਕਰੀ ਿਬ੍ਰਧ ਜਬੈ। ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਰਜਨ ਕਰ ਪੰਕਜ ਤਬੈ॥੧੩॥ ਗਹੀ ਈਟ ਤਿਹ ਕਰੀ ਿਟਕਾਵਨ। ਮੰਦਰ ਅਿਵਚਲ ਨੀਵ ਰਖਾਵਨ। (Gurpartap Suraj Ras 2, Ansu 53).

It is clear that Gurpartap Suraj Granth says that Sri Guru Arjan laid the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib with his own hands.

Why the Confusion?

The first Sikh historian to write otherwise was Giani Gian Singh. In the third Lahore edition of Sri Gur Panth Parkash, he writes that Mian Mir placed the brick. What is odd is that Giani jee in the first edition of Panth Parkash (published in Delhi, 1936Bk.) and in the second edition (published in Amritsar, 1946Bk) does not say who placed the first brick. Only in the third Lahore edition does he say that Mian Mir placed the first brick but does not say where he has learned this from nor does he give any reference.

From the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib to the writing of Panth Parkash, 300 years had passed. None of the writers of Gurbilas Patshahi 6, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Mehma Parkash (1776), Bansavalinama, Gurkirat Parkash (1812), Suraj Granth nor Pracheen Panth Parkash by Rattan Singh Bhangu had indicated that Mian Mir was involved in laying the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib.

Further, none of the Muslim writers who have written biographies of Mian Mir have written that he laid the foundation. This is odd because they would have been very proud to note such a fact. It seems clear that the story of Mian Mir laying the foundation is imaginary.

Butay Shah: Beginning the Myth

Principal Satbir Singh has written that the first person to write about Mian Mir having laid the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib was Butay Shah (real name Ghulam Muhaiyuddin) in his book “Tavarikh-i-Punjab.” Butay Shah was a Muslim Maulvi. He writes, “Shah Mian Mir came to Amritsar at the invitation of Sri Guru Arjan Dev jee and with his holy hands, placed four bricks in the four directions and one in the middle.”

A hand-written copy of this work says that it was written in 1848AD. The British were in control of Punjab at that time. No Sikh or non-Sikh writer had written about Mian Mir before this time. How did Butay Shah find his information? He has not given any source. The method he outlines of how the foundation was laid is also unusual and has not been seen or read anywhere before.

Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangoo writes about Butay Shah in Pracheen Panth Parkash. Rattan Singh had found out that the British had hired Shah to write the Khalsa’s history in Persian. He protested that a Maulvi would not do justice to Sikh history because there had always been tension/conflict between Hindus and Sikhs and the Moslems and they spoke against each other.

Giani Gian Singh also writes about the above incident. He writes how Rattan Singh and Cpt. Murray discussed the issue and Rattan Singh told him that Sikh history written by a Maulvi would be of harm to the Sikhs and he did not write the truth. He told Murray that each person could write about his own religion for which he was knowledgeable but he could not write about another’s religion properly especially in the case where there was conflict between the respective religions. He said clearly to Murray after seeing the history written by Butay Shah, “he will write history in a way that will harm the Singhs.” And also “how will he write the truth? He will write what is the opposite.” (Sri Guru Panth Parkash Poorbaardh Bisram dooa)“

After this, Rattan Singh wrote Panth Parkash and gave it to Cpt. Murray. Murray kept both Panth Parkash and Tavarikh-i-Punjab with him. Rattan Singh did not however write in Panth Parkash who placed the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib.

Clearly from what Rattan Singh told Cpt. Murray, he saw that Maulvi Butay Shah was writing Sikh history in a twisted and inaccurate way.

Which Account is Authentic?

Accepting Butay Shah’s statement that Mian Mir placed the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib, Sohan Lal Suri in his book Umda-Tu-Tavarikh (1885 AD) repeated the same thing. In the same way, the Amritsar Municipal Corporation in their record for 1849 to 1885 seem to have relied on Butay Shah and recorded Mian Mir as having placed the foundation.

Before all these, Kavi Santokh Singh wrote in Gurpartap Sooraj Granth (1900BK) that Guru Arjan had placed the foundation. Bhai Santokh Singh had received his training at Sri Amritsar Sahib from Bhai Sant Singh. Bhai Sant Singh used to do Katha every day at Sri Darbar Sahib. Before him, his brother Giani Gurdas Singh and their father, Bhai Surat Singh used to do this seva at Sri Harimandar Sahib.

Bhai Surat Singh’s ustad was Bhai Gurbaksh Singh, who had received his training in Gurmat and Sikh history from Bhai Mani Singh jee himself. Bhai Mani Singh jee had been in the Guru’s service since the time of Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib. Bhai Sahib’s grand father, Bhai Baloo jee was a Sikh of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib and was shahid in the Battle of Amritsar in 1691Bk.

Bhai Mani Singh jee must have known from his grandfather and father about the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib and certainly must have been told by the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth Guru of the same.

Bhai Mani Singh passed on his knowledge to Bhai Gurbaksh Singh, who then passed the knowledge to Bhai Surat Singh who educated his two sons, Bhai Gurdas Singh and Bhai Sant Singh. It was from Bhai Sant Singh that Kavi Santokh Singh learned of the foundation of Sri Harimandar Sahib. It is clear that Kavi Santokh Singh’s knowledge is more reliable than that of Butay Shah.


Butay Shah and Sohan Lal Suri do not have even a distant relationship with Sri Harimandir Sahib nor did their ancestors have any link. It is clear that these writers have not relied on anything besides their own imaginations. In fact, Butay Shah and Sohan Lal Suri’s accounts do not match between themselves. Butay Shah writes that four bricks were placed in the four directions and one in the middle. He then writes that Mian Mir was invited to Amritsar by Guru Arjan Dev jee. Sohan Lal writes however that Guru jee himself went to Lahore and invited Mian Mir to place the foundation of Harimandar Sahib in Amritsar. There is no further mention of whether Mian Mir came to Amritsar and whether he placed one or five foundation bricks. In a court of law, where the statements of the witnesses don’t match, they are not given any credence. Therefore the writings of Butay Shah and Sohan Lal cannot be accepted, especially since they have both been written after Gurpartap Suraj Granth.

Dr. Madanjit Kaur on the Issue

Sikh historian Dr. Madanjit Kaur writes in “The Golden Temple: Past and Present, “According to the earliest Sikh tradition, the foundation stone of the Harmander was laid by Guru Arjan himself. A mason, so goes the story, accidentally displaced the brick (the foundation stone). On seeing this, the Guru prophesized that the foundation would be laid again in the near future. This version of Bhai Santokh Singh is carried by almost all subsequent Sikh sources right up to the twentieth century ….”

The author further writes: “The story of Mian Mir having laid foundation of Harmander appears amongst the Persian sources for the first time in Bute Shah’s, ‘Tawarikh-I-Punjab’… The real objective of the author (Bute Shah) was to eradicate any chance of animosity between Sikhs and Muslims after fall of Sikh Kingdom…”

“The first recorded reference to this version in European sources is to be met immediately in, “The Punjab notes and queries”. It records: ‘The foundation stone was laid by Mian Mir...’ The contributor of the entry, E. Nicholl, (Secretary, Municipal Committee, Amritsar) does not cite any authority, he merely states the facts”.

Renowned Sikh historian, S. Piara Singh Padam also accepts that Sri Guru Arjan Dev jee laid the foundation. He writes “Mian Mir was barely 36-37 years old at the time. Only after considerable meditation did he finally (later in life) become so respected.”

Therefore it is clear that the foundation Sri Harimandar Sahib was laid by Sri Guru Arjan Dev jee. The myth of the foundation being laid by Sai Mian Mir is a fabrication of the mid 19th Century.

Just wondering how many attacks have happen in harmandar sahib , is it two or three

the indian gov alone has attacked over 3 times

lets try making this viral.

they seriously need to advertise their manifestos. their websites pretty lame too.

ohh man ive already voted :blink2: what a shame!! I've always thought they were a bit too white/english/edl'ish

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/14/excerpts-guardian-reporting-first-world-war

12 Nov 1914: When the Indians Arrived

The people of the Raj – modern India and Pakistan – were not consulted about their participation in the war. More than 1 million soldiers served overseas in the Indian army – and 75,000 died. By autumn 1914, Indians were on the western front.

It was a curious sight to all of us, French or English, the day when the Indians arrived in a dreary little town of Northern France … Suddenly the Indian Lancers appeared, and the pavement on both sides of the street was at once filled by a crowd of soldiers and civilians watching the procession, as a London crowd will do in Whitehall on the day of the opening of Parliament. In fact, those Indians looked all like kings. The Lancers sat proudly in their saddles, with their heads upright under the Oriental crowns; then came a regiment of Sikhs, walking at a brisk pace, all big and strong men, with curled beards and the wide 'pagri' round the ears; the Pathans followed, carrying on their heads that queer pointed bonnet, the 'kullah,' which reminds one of the warriors seen on old Persian tapestries – a more slender type of men, but equally determined, and with faces at the same time smiling and resolute.

… The day after, we heard that during the night one of the Sikh regiment had had to recapture the trench, which the Germans had taken by surprise, and that their bayonet charge was so tremendous that the enemy did not dare counter-attack. Almost immediately after that feat an order came not to allow the Indians uselessly to expose their lives by walking out of the trenches. The fact was that, in order to show their contempt for death, some Sikhs had refused to hide themselves in the trenches and had immediately drawn a fierce fire on their regiment. Fortunately, they did not insist on playing that sort of game; otherwise the Indian Army Corps would have disappeared in one week's time out of sheer bravery. […]

A 'Black Maria' fell quite near a sapper while he was lying on the ground and steadily firing on the advancing foe. It did not hurt him, but dug a hole six feet deep at his side. The sapper – a Sikh, I believe – waited until the smoke had gone, and then jumped into the hole. He soon found that the position was a comfortable one, and started firing from the cover the Germans had dug for him; according to officers who were standing by, he managed to kill some fifteen or twenty Germans by himself, and would have remained there for ever if he had not been eventually ordered to retreat. He was warmly congratulated afterwards, but did not appear to think he had done anything remarkable.

"The anti-sikh parchariks are telling youth you cant be a Sikh unless you have kesh,etc the same mistake made by SGPC which put all sahejdhari's into the camp of hindu punjabi's"

Good joke. According to you it is anti Sikh to have kesh. And my question was what is reason of patitpuna.

How is that a joke? and how is that statement anti-sikh? Youth are told they're not sikh unless they have kesh. why should they even bother to make an effort to discover sikhi with the possibility of advancing and keeping kesh when they are sidelined right from the beginning?

Cool Water made valid points. You post a question on an open forum, you get a response and then you critise rather than accept it as a differing opinion. lol another reason why youth cba with our people. our elders run the show, their opinion counts, everyone elses is just invalid.

I'm glad you haven't had to use it, someone will end up in hospital or prison, lol.

It's very well made, I've sharpened it with a ceramic stone so it's hair popping sharp. I'm selling this kirpan in order to fund a sword purchase.

Still for sale? Please check inbox