Bundha

This seems to be true, I think they have wilted under pressure from some organisations (one who has a popular forum in canada) and they had changed all the translations of the word Sant - to mean akalpurkh.

which seems to make a mockery of the translastions of Sukhamani Sahib where it says "Sant ka dhoki..........."

anyway, I think under more pressure they reverted back to the old transalations but I do not know the state of play now.

You lucky lucky people of Smethwick.

Do not listen to the nindhaks, go to the diwans and get lahaa of Baba Jis buchans.

Anyone got their full itinery?

The ideal is that there are no castes and we can all keep repeating this mantra, but the reality is that there is, and we would be naïve to ignore this. First we have to acknowledge the problem only then can we start to rectify it.

The Bhatras are a very close knit group and rarely have contact with other Sikhs, they have there own Gurdwaras and rarely attend other Gurdwaras. We have a number of Gurdwaras in Leeds and I could probably go to any of them (which I do) but for some reason I would not normally go to the Bhatara one. Infact I would say that if I did most there would wonder why this guy has come to this Gurdwara. It is strange but true.

We used to have Bhatra neighbours and they were shocked when we said we were veggies, “then what do you eat?” came the question.

I remember when I was a young lad, we went to a Bhatra Gurdwara - I played tabla with a guy who used to do weddings as a profession, but I was only about 14 at the time. I remember once we did a wedding at some ones house and the bride and groom were both like 13 year olds !!!, any way I digress - and we went into the langar hall and they were serving egg and bacon and that was on gurdwara premesis, having said that, it was some time ago.

The Bhatra community in Leeds have split into two – no change there then ! – because one are pro meat and the other anti-meat, whether they serve that in the langar hall I do not know.

One question though, why the serving of bacon and eggs to the janj ? Why they not satisfied with samosay and pakoray like the rest of us?

I have heard reports that Baba Ranjit Singh Ji Dandhriawallay are coming to the UK in July and that they will be in Southall in a few weeks time, also that they have booked a dewan at smethwick Gurdwara Birmingham?

Is this true, and if so does anyone have a full program listing, and are they coming to Leeds ?

Did anyone attend the Atam Ras program in Leeds on saturday?

It was awesome and very inspirational. When all the four jathas got up on stage and cooporated with singing

with each others kirtan it was great to see. And the kirtan was brilliant.

Didn't realise Bhai Harjinder Singh was such a light hearted person and his banter with Sant Anoop Singh was nice to see.

Pity it was held in the smaller hall rather then the main darbar and the people who set up the PA system should have done that way before the kirtan had started.

Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji, haat jaa puttay kam karnoe !

<<< I'll say whatever I want whenever I want.

I am not disrespecting anyone.

The colour looks gold to me so I made the comment. >>>>

Such humility yaar. You disrespect Guru dhay piaray and rather then beg for forgivness you say you can say what you want when you want, your true colours are showing.

<<< If taking Amrit means having your sort of wisdom or knowledge on Sikh issues, then I would rather not be an Amritdhari..... >>>>

Your hunkaar knows no bounds. To say that you would rather not be an amritdhari - whatever the issue - should never ever pass the lips of a GurSikh, shame on you yaar.

I will be going to the Atam Ras kirtan on Leeds.

TavParsad,

please do not taint all mahapursh with your biased post. He is not a Sikh, he is not teaching spirituality, he is not teaching gurbani or anything like this.

This person is a yoga master and he is teaching yoga. There is no SEWA here, he is teaching people yoga that is all.

If he wants to charge astronomical amounts of money for his sessions and people want to pay those prices why is it getting up your nose?

I agree that people should get up amritwelly and go naam/simran but if our middle aged uncles and anties who have over indulged on prathay, samosay and ladoo have gotten off their back sides and done a little excersice that surely that is a good thing.

.

Here is another good game.

You will need some LEGO bricks.

Build yourself a small model out of lego using different colours – not too complex, place it behind a screen in the corner of the room.

Split the people into teams of about 4 or 5. Each team has all the bricks to make the model plus extra bricks.

One member of the team gets appointed the ‘observer’

Only the Observer gets to go to the corner of the room and view the Main Model, BUT he is not allowed to touch the teams bricks. All he/she can do is instruct the team verbally how to make the model.

Optional : One appointed team member (unbeknownst to the others) is a traitor and tries to sabotage the building of the model by deliberately confusing them or tries to build the model incorrectly.

The first team to build the model correctly wins. This is great fun as people are running about the room others are shouting to be heard others are trying to sabotage the whole thing and the rest are desperately trying to hear the Observer and make the model.

Personally I think that at camps a happy medium should be struck between learning excersies and just fun things. Learning kirtan and instruments is all commendable but the kids get enough of this at home and what they really want is to do different things that is fun and engaging.

A lot more activities like the ones above is a good direction. I remember we went on a team building exercise and we were given bollsa wood (very light and easily cut) some string, glue and paper clips and a few other things and we were split into teams and given an afternoon to build a tower from which an encreasingly heavy load would be hung and the tower which could support the largest load won. At the end of the afternoon we all brought out towers and it was great fun as all watched and the organiser hung weights off the towers and one by one they collapsed into big heaps.

Things like this are fun, or you could have a load of plastic milk crates and large empty water bottles and a few poles and rope and the aim is to build a contraption to pick up an object in the middle of a circle into which you cannot enter etc.

Randip Singh Ji are you amritdhari ?

If not then what gives you the right to harp on from the side lines as to what the panj piyaray wear or not.

If you yourself are not part of the Khalsa then what right have you got to critisize?

First walk the walk.......................... and then talk

I think Pritam singh Khalsa has put it nicely.

I think you are wasting time here with this issue, bye.

<<<< But that doesn't mean that women should be allowed to be covered, and not men. >>>

Who’s stopping you? Every time the sun comes out you see men stripped to their shorts, if a woman feels she wants to do that then go ahead. But, here lies the destructive force of Kalyug, we get so bogged down in detail that we miss the big picture. In the pursuit of equality a mata or Bibi is willing to forgo her modesty just so that she can say I am as equal as a man. I would hope there are better issues to fight inequality with and I suspect that most bibbies are intelligent enough to recognise this.

<<< That bra example that was given was not the type that would help me figure this issue out. >>>

Dunno about that mate, there are a few gianies who could benefit from one of these !

<<< If we are Sikhs, and we respect each other, what harm is there in public bathing? >>>>

You gotta be kidding right?

In puratan times bibbis would do “chund” and keep themselves covered for modesty, how times are changed where people advocate public bathing. There is trouble enough in gurdwaras with people eying each other up and to be honest with you most bibies I am sure would much rather bathe in privacy anyway.

<<< What if, say, a man wants HIS privacy? >>>

Agreed, this is a shortcoming, but here surely the male is under represented as he does not have as good a facility as the females.

We are bought up and moulded by our environment and it has direct effect upon us so the Punjabi influence has always been there, even in the Guru Sahibs times.

I find your premise on equality rather naïve. You seem to equate equality with an attitude of “we must do everything the other gender does.” This is not necessarily equality. Women have made great strives in proper equality, however nobody is saying that inequality does not exist but the energy needs to be channelled at worthwhile causes to spent on meaningless issues.

The basic point is that the genders are different and Guru Ji loves us because of our differences. We have differing roles to play in life and Guru Ji loves us for this. One gender was given the title ‘Singh,’ the other was given ‘Kaur,’ why? If there is total equality then why this fundamental difference? Why not have both ‘Singhs’ or both ‘Kaurs?’

In normal society men can walk around in kashera and SiriSahib but a woman covers other parts of her body for modesty. You want a woman to walk around like this also? How many Mata / bibbia would take this up? How many Matas and bibbia would want to take ishnaan in the glaring eye of other people? I am sure most ladies welcome the privacy of being able to do ishnaan without prying eyes, where as men are not too bothered about this.

Whatever next? Men stand up when they do a ‘peepee,’ are women going to demand this also?

Just to expand a little on doing sewa.

One only learns how to do sewa if one does sewa. For instance in Gurdwaras where there are tables/chairs, then when you bartaa say some daal, one should not put the bowl of daal on the table , of if you are giving out some water then one shouldn’t put the jug on the table at any point, because this is where everyone is eating and suchum must be kept. Nobody tells you this, you only learn this when the jug is a little too heavy and you put it on the table to get a better grip, that is when you collared by “Uncle Ji” who in a very loud voice will shout that you must not do this. You never do it again.

Sewadhaars can be insensitive, we are all learners and we all make mistakes. A quite word in your ear is sufficient to let you know when you have done something against maryadha. But some people take great delight in telling people off. No point in arguing with them because you are opposing there hunkaar with your own hunkaar and krodh.

When you are doing sewa the type of ‘phall’ you get is directly related with the types of thoughts you have while doing the sewa. If you do sewa with a specific ‘mang’ in mind then this may be fulfilled but the reward is limited, one should try to do sewa with a free mind and with japing “waheguru waheguru” inside, and always mindful that the sewa is only being done with the grace of Guru Ji and one should not show favouritism to anyone or ignore someone because you don’t like them or your family does not speak with them, one must try to treat all the same .

Wicked Warrior,

It is a nice sewa, as Khalsa4eva has said do what you think is appropriate, there are no fixed rules.

Kids will love the sweets, children are pure and innocent, if they are happy when you offer them sweets then who knows what good thoughts will wash away your sins and paap (not that I am saying you do a lot of paap mind, but I think we all do it and we could all benifit from our paap being washed away.).

Do not get hung up about what you should do or what order it needs to be done. If you think taking the sweets into darbar sahib and place infront of Guru Ji and then take them to the langar hall, then that is fine.

I totally understand your apprehension about doing sewa and getting told of for not doing something correctly. What i would say is do not worry about this, just do the sewa and if some insensitive person does tell you off, just accept is humbly.

In the house of Guru Nanak be humble, is someone admonishes you then accept it with folded hands, this brings nimarta to the mind and is very good for you, even if the telling off is incorrect.

One must not stop sewa in the fear of getting told off, rather do sewa and get told off then not do any sewa at all.

Piyara Ji,

I wouldn't beleive all that you hear. Maybe there are some raggies that charge a lot but all I can say is that the average raggi from India who comes to the UK is ROBBED by the Gurdwara committee.

The committee gives that raggies a flat fee - and this is very low, beleive me - and then take all the payta infront of the kirtanees, if this isn't day light robbery I don't know what it !

All the gurdwaras are in on the act, they have grouped together as a cartel and say "this is our terms, accept or go somewhere else" the raggies have not choice, they have to accept.

Raggies leave their families, their children behind and spend months in dingy rooms and paid a pittence just to earn a crust for their beloveds back home................ I say Dhan Dhan those Raggi!

again, there may be some who do get a lot of money but for the majority it is a different story altogether .

The Nihang Singhs also have code words for different things.

Like potatoes are called anday (eggs) and batau (aubergines) are called battaray (some sort of animal like a gopher, I think), a donkey is called a thanay Dhaar (some police official), going to the toilet is ‘madhaan marran chulla’, and everyone is a kuchaa-pilla.

I was wondering if you have come across words in Punjabi that you use that others never use or others use that you have never heard off.

When I was a laddi my mum used to put some sabzi on a roti and roll the roti up into a long roll, we used to call this a ‘kugoo’.

We used to call guests – paraunay but I have heard others call them magaynee (African in origin I think)

We used to call onions – gunday but I have heard others call the piazz (used in Indian restaurants)

We used to call the sly (steel rod) that you use to tidy your hair into your pag – Khalsa Meter.

We used to call tinday – false aloo, because they looked like aloo in the sabzi but when you bit into them they were something else.

We used to call karalay – rats.

This is another misconception that no one can recognise a sant. If someone says to you that that person is a doctor, then how do you know he is a doctor? Because he does what a doctor does - takes peoples pulse, checks them administers prescriptions, he is a doctor. A sant, and I am not talking about the fake ones, a true sant can be recognised BUT you have to want to recognise them. If you are of the ilk that you find fault in all and criticize for the sake of it, then a true sant will pass you by and you will not know it. Only with Akalpurkhs kirpa those most fortunate will find and recognise a sant.

<<< there are those who use all the sant tuks to refer to there sant, which makes no sense >>>

I have never met any of these and anyone with even a little intelligence knows that all references to sant do not refer to sandhus and that many do refer to the Guru. The same can be said to those people who use all sant tuks to mean Guru, which also is not correct.

You asked earlier how does one become a sant – the title of sant comes from up above, those sat in satch khand will bestow the title of sant on a maha-soul and send them down to earth to put fools like us on the path of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No matter how much we criticize them and do nindhyia of them the title of sant remains because it is no earth bestowed honour and their spirituality will shine through no matter what people say.

Now think about it, what will happen to those people who do do this nindhia – but they shout at the top of their voices that this is not nindhia – but these mahapursh have been sent from above and boy some people are going to get some serious chittar !

I think all we are doing here is voicing our concerns about interpretation rather then translation.

It is no secret that people like AKJ (who I have the utmost respect for) are very anti-mahapursh and here is another attempt at wiping the whole concept of ‘sant’ from Sikhi, BUT this is wholly corrupting gurbani which cannot be acceptable.

What happens for instance to the whole astpathi in Sukhmani Sahib about “sant ki nindhia” or the whole a astpathi about “sandh kay sang” OR what about the astpathi about SANT KA DHOKHI? Is this to be translated as GURU’s dokhi, who can ever be GURU’s dokhi? And how can Guru ever feel dukh?

These concerns have obviously reached the Max people and now they know how the sangat feels. We have a legitimate right to voice our concerns. It seems unbelievable that by taking out the word ‘saint’ for ‘sant’ and replacing it with ‘Guru’ or ‘devotee’ the sevadhars did not realise that this would cause an uproar , did they not foresee this ? Or maybe they were pressurised by certain people/organizations to do this

One note of contention however, apparently they have changed all the references to sant = saint into sant = Guru.

Since when can saadh jan (saint disciple) be inetrpreted as 'Guru.'

You won't believe how many wedding cards, vaisakhi cards, Des Pardases, Sike Times etc I have all piled up. I need to dispose of them as they are all over the house.

I think the best way would be to -aagan pait - that is, set a little fire in the back garden, do a little ardaas benti and comit them to fire.

There is no point in plucking a statement out of the air and expect everyone to understand what you mean.

<<< that RSS article should be removed...how many are for this? >>>

What do you base this on ?

The article is extreamly informative of the ways the RSS are operating, it gives info about their motives and the ways they operate, surely this is good for all Sikhs to read and form plans to combat this, there is no point hiding our heads in the sand. This is happening now, we are being attacked now, undermined now, and we need to make everyone aware of it.

This site is run by me!

If you have a problem with it then tell me what it is, the article on the RSS is showing how they are twisting Sikhism, it is exposing them.

King Singh what is your problem ???