sureal69

Sorry but not the words of our Gurus, but of Bhai Desa Singh Ji. Unless you consider both to be the same. 114900[/snapback] They are words of a GurMukh, we should abide by them. 114916[/snapback] my point is to clarify the source of those words. Then you can abide by any words you wish to. 114922[/snapback] I for one would like to thank everyone for participating in our discussion. Its become rather lengthy and we've covered the topics that I had intended on covering. I would like to respond to a few posts in general. I am and have lived a sikh way of life to the best of my abliity. I do believe in sikhism but not this psuedo fanaticism that exists today. I do not see the need for women to wear turbans and feel it has been introduced in order to make it seem as if these people are more religious than others. Its all very bizzare. As well, I don't think that a woman should be made to feel as if she's not a sikh simply because she decides to remove unwanted facial hair. That I also see as bizzare. I believe alot of families take amrit simply because the father may want his friends and associates within the Gurudwara to know atleast in appearance how religious thier families are. Let me tell you about our family friends. Father wears full nihang outfit and their three kids wear turbans both girls and the boy. Even the four year old daughter wears a turban and kirpan as she has taken amrit. His wife didn't want to wear a turban after amrit and he used to beat her until she started wearing a turban. So its just all very odd. No one, not one person has discussed the case of the girl that was posted in this thread who had facial hair and wanted to remove it and was unable to leave the house because of it. Or the fact that her parents went nuts because she wanted to do something that was logical and rational. So if you want me to answer your questions please first state your position on the above case I mention. Other than that I have nothing more to say, once again thank you for the discussion. I have learned a great deal and thank everyone who has participated. Later!

Should we conclude from the above that you out of modesty wear your turban inside your stomach lining? Sureal, nice english, I see you've mastered the masters language, but not the master. You harbour such passion about fanaticism... or should we say you harbour such fanaticism about passion? Welcome to the forum. :nihungsmile: 114424[/snapback] I do not understand a thing you are saying, maybe thats because you're an <banned word filter activated>. Write in coherant sentences if you want people to take you seriously. What is that about my turban inside my stomach? Very weird. 114473[/snapback] Sureal, I’m disappointed, when I ask for my share of amusement from you, you end up rather feeble. Such a strong reaction for someone “not understanding a thing” don't you think? Is that all it took to transform you from eloquent to unraveled? Your own stark contradiction quoted back to you can be difficult to understand. 114572[/snapback] I am almost always unraveled but just the very thought that I had you convinced that I may have been eloquent amuses me. My friend give yourself credit you are far more eloquent than I. Still you leave your comments shrouded in mystery, what was that about turbans and stomach linings? I still find it weird. Please do not hide the higher meaning, I'm sure there is one hidden in this riddle you pose about digestible turbans.

He's probably long gone akj... 114545[/snapback] I'm sure you'll be perplexed to learn that I am still here, although tied up at the moment. This isn't a chess game or point counter point for me. I'm not interested in a battle of wills or intellect. I am genuinly here to learn, if I am wrong so be it. I will have learned and then corrected mine own misconceptions. Khalsa Starr, in your #109 post you had not asked a direct question but now you seem to want an answer to your post. Typically in the english language when one asks a question the sentence is ended with a "?". You seem to imply I am in some way evading the question or selectively answering what I am will or able to answer. Both assesments of yours are wrong. Ask a question "?" so shall you recieve an answer. Otherwise wait an eternity, brooding and pretending that others are avoiding you. I'm sure this isn't the first time others have been confused by your so called comments masquerading as question. I just hope its the last. So once again "#109" post, what is your question?

I enjoyed reading your entire post. I have to agree with everything that you have said, however if I may add a little without taking anything away? You mentioned a very powerful point that is often lost amongst this group thread I've been slamming my head against. That is, Gurbani above all, rehats etc.. are simply secondary. Things like the Panj Piara's saying that Sikhs can only refer to God as Waheguru is a compelete joke. The guru granth Sahib starts out with Ik Oh Onkar. Onkar is a jain word for god. If Guru Nanak would have wanted us to refer to God in only one name he would not have used Ram, Gopal or any other word. Sikhism is a complex religion that cannot be simplified. Like I said before to experience the complete experience of Sikhism one must focus your energies on Gurbani. Following whatever rules that your local Baba or the person that gave you amrit or whom ever you consider to be your spiritual guide. If you're spiritual guide isn't Gurbani, then you'll fall prey to all the things that I've been discussing in the thread. The second point which I do disagree with you on is, Gurbani was never intended to the word of God. Everyone seems to often refer to the Guru's as if they were godlike or god. As I remember it, they said they were inspired by their love for god or his love for us. I do not remember but maybe I was asleep on the day at the Gurudwara when they covered the fact that the Guru's said god spoke to them. Very important difference. Most other religions dervie their authority from the fact that "God Spoke to Me". Sikhism says that we have written these words out of our love for god and inspired by not him but our love for him. Please clarify. Later.

Dude, I'm sorry to be rude here but that could quite possibly be the dumbest thing I have read on this post. Let me give you an example here, There is a bucket of water sitting in your driveway. You are going to use it to wash your car. An elephant walks by and thinks of it as a cool drink. An ant walks by and thinks of it as an ocean. And a tadpole hops by it and thinks of it as a home. Would you say to those animals that "NO! That can't be thought of in any other way besides a bucket of water that I need to wash my car with. It could not be used in any other way, it can not be thought of in any other way, it's a bucket for washing a car and that's it! That's Final!"EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINIONS! Just because you define Fanatic one way, does not mean that it some one else can not think of it in another way. And don't even think about using the excuse "This is the dictionary definition." When the Tables and Chairs issue was going on in BC, Canada the media labeled the (for lack of a better phrase) floor sangat "fundamentalists." That doesn't fit at all. All the sangat that sat on the floor was doing is following the Akal Takht's Hukam. That doesn't mean that they're Fundamentalists, it just means that they're following Hukam of the Akal Takht. Let's look at the term fanatic again: Fanatic: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion. Intense uncritical devotion? So are you saying that you only need to devote yourself to the Guru until you've devoted yourself just enough? So after that you can just stop devoting yourself because it is no longer necessary? That's all I can think of posting write now. Please forgive me if I offended anybody or made any mistakes. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 114419[/snapback] There can be varying opinions on any subjective issue, however language and its meaning are by thier nature objective. If it weren't so, language would lose its meaning where everyone of us would essential be unable to communicate. Spiritual experience (Sikhism) subjective, the meaning of Fanatic, objective. So discuss with me Sikhism and I will listen to you, a discourse on english definitions and how we all feel that we can agree to disagree on the actual meaning of words makes you sound well, y'know what I'm thinking? That you're an <banned word filter activated>. Sorry, but thats how it comes across. Our world isn't based on interpretation but on fact. Next you'll be telling me that the number one is actually two and two plus two is actually five. Objective vs Subjective, simple concept to master so run along and master it. Come back when you're done.

Should we conclude from the above that you out of modesty wear your turban inside your stomach lining? Sureal, nice english, I see you've mastered the masters language, but not the master. You harbour such passion about fanaticism... or should we say you harbour such fanaticism about passion? Welcome to the forum. :nihungsmile: 114424[/snapback] I do not understand a thing you are saying, maybe thats because you're an <banned word filter activated>. Write in coherant sentences if you want people to take you seriously. What is that about my turban inside my stomach? Very weird.

Please do not try to redefine fanatic. I have defined both fundamentalist and fanatic in my earlier posts. Take the time to read above before posting. The other thing is I feel some people simply cannot digest sikhism. That is why they need rehats and the like. O LORD GIVE US SOME RULES. Such that we may be able to ascertain those who are worthy among us. For your ilk, I have no other suggestion that to follow a few religions with plenty of rules and conventions. May I suggest Islam, fundementalist Christianity? Any of the Judao-Christian religions will suffice. You will have rules upon rules, down to how you dress and who you may befriend. Islam I might add really does well in this area. Give it a try, I know you'll like it, Sikhism seems to just confuse you. Hinduism has the caste system, that will really help you in determining who you are better than and who was lesser than you. Its much better than the other religions because you have to put no effort in, you are born lower or higher. You are free to live your life in whatever way possible in the comfort that you are born higher than someone else. Great fun! See, there are plenty of religions like that, where dress code vs conduct and dress code and convention win. Thank god for Budhism, Sufiism and Sikhism. But juding from some of the posts might I suggest a different religion? One that is more to your way of thought? Thank You. And Praise the Lord!

Ok im gna approach this systematically cos all these posts are giving me a headache!!! 1) Facial hair obsession with respect to sikh women. If you’re a girl and you shave or wax then you’re not sikh. With regards to facial hair on women. At the end of the day, women (and men) should not remove ANY hair from ANYWHERE on their person. This is standard, and cannot and should not be questioned, cos ovawise ur just questioning ur Guru. I wont bring up quotes cos a lot of people have already done that!!!! However, some women feel that they are unable to cope with their excess hair in ‘unwanted’ places, and so they do remove it. This is their personal choice and so we cannot question their tendencies. It is not up to us to condemn them in any way, even if we appear to follow our guidelines to the last detail. Who are we to question them? Same goes to sureal69, you have said in ur posts that it disgusts you to see women with facial hair, but who are you to condemn them for what they believe? That is just ur personal opinion, which you by all means are entitled to. No-one is saying that if ur a woman and u shave etc that you are not a Sikh, however is just means that these women have not fully embraced their faith. Also, women with facial hair are not attractive? In my opinion, we will all be paired up with the one we have been destined to, so our personal appearance does not come into it. Its fate. Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!! 2) If you’re a woman and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not Sikh. I myself come from an amritdhari family, but I myself am not amritdhari just yet and do not wear a dastaar. Some of the women I know who are amritdhari do not wear a dastaar. Having read some posts on this site iv learnt that women should wear a dastaar as part of their identity, to enforce equality amongst men and women. This is why Guru Ji said their SIKHS (therefore men and women) should wear a dastaar. However, for whatever reason, some women feel that they cannot do this, or perhaps have not been brought up to believe this etc. there are many different reasons, but again it all boils down to the actual person. We as the general public cannot and should not try to impose our beliefs on others, or mock anyone in any way. Sureal69, you say that u find women who wear a dastaar unattractive, but again this boils down to ur personal preference. I know a good many who find women with dastaars more attractive than those without – its their personal opinion. 3) If you’re a guy and you don’t wear a turban then you’re not a Sikh. What is a Sikh? A soul waiting to be taught, a learner/disciple. If we were all perfect right from the start, why would we be born in this janum? The fact of the matter is, all men should wear a dastaar. End of. However if some do not, again it is their own personal choice, let them be if that’s what they want. By all means show them the true path, BUT do not force them onto it. I believe that if ur a guy and you do not wear a dastaar, then u are still a Sikh, but one that has not fully embraced their faith. 4) Numerous references to being guru ji’s prince and princesses?!?!? What?!? This is all new to me, sorry if I don’t follow. Kaur = princess Singh = lion BUT Singhs and Kaurs are brother and sister, therefore princess and prince!!!! Jus some affectionate terminology (I tink!!). Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaims that all Sikhs are their sons and daughters (at Chamkaur). Guru Gobind Singh Ji is royalty, we are royalties children, therefore we are all princes and princesses, again affectionate terms with powerful meaning. To me, a person’s outward appearance is EQUALLY important to a person’s inner quality. A person should not focus on one, without nurturing the other. So in some ways, I agree with sureal69, because there are a lot of people who do jus focus on their outward appearance, and not on their inner self, and visa versa. My girl cousins who are sikh but cut their hair had a chance encounter at my house with my dad’s family friends who’s daughters wear turbans. My girl cousins are rather fashion conscious and very good looking, but are not wild drinking party animals. However the girls wearing turbans treated them as if they were wh**s who had no morals whatsoever. It was as if they acted and this is a quote “Guru ji’s princesses” and above anyone who doesn’t wear a turban. GET A LIFE! That’s how you drive away anyone who may even be remotely interested in the religion. This was clearly wrong, the gals wiv the dastaars should not have done this. Clearly these gals have a lot to learn about pride etc, and I second ur comment That’s how you drive away anyone who may even be remotely interested in the religion. How can people be brought into Sikhi, if they are constantly being condemned? SIKHI SHOULD BE EMBRACED WHOLE HEARTEDLY, NOT IMPOSED UPON BY OTHERS. However, sureal69, how can you judge all gals who wear a dastaars on the actions of a few? I know a few gals who wear dastaars, all from different families, and they are some of the nicest people eva. A persons appearance does not dictate his or hers personality, so to say that all gals who wear dastaars consider themselves to be better than those who do not, is an ignorant comment to make. The question of fanaticism…. I think what sureal69 is tryna emphasise on is the fact that many people just wanna show how ‘Sikh’ they are with their appearance e.g. who’s got the biggest Kara etc. Contrary to what a lot of people on this site think, I believe that sureal69 is a very intelligent person with perhaps controversial beliefs, but still they are important. I think that sureal69 has brought up a lot of interesting issues. if iv offended anyone, ma bad!!!!! Wjkk Wjkf 114357[/snapback] Thank you for such a wonderfully informative post. As you may have noticed some were offeneded that I referred to God in any other name other than Waheguru. Sad how some will always miss what Sikhism has been trying to say. I find it fascinating how this thread has in some respects through discussion uncovered all of the biases that I intially wrote about in my first post. For some people who wrote the more absurd posts, you know who you are and what you've got to change about your thinking. I would like to thank everyone for participating and I hope we can continue trying to figure out why and how our religion has changed in a direction that is difficult to support or defend.

I started this topic in order to understand the nature of 2nd generation fanaticism within our religion. I received a few relevant posts. But this quote above about someone asking for our prayers because she used kaur when she wasn’t a sikh takes the cake. You make me laugh with your holier than though attitude. “Lord once I was lost but now I am found, whatever!”. If you’d read the topic you’d be able to appreciate what I was trying to focus in on, this topic is specifically designed for people of your ilk. I do appreciate the few who tried to say that my posts were brahministic in nature, it certainly gave me a good laugh. Whenever you disagree with someone label their comments seditious with respect our rehats or nominally your rehats from a particular babba. One of my uncles son’s wears his full bana, full nihang outfit to university so no pants but a kurta type of thing, you all know what I’m talking about what you see during Vasakhi. He wears it every day!. Apparently if some of you people have your way, that will be the accepted dress code for anyone choosing to follow Sikhism. There’ll probably be like two of certified sikhs but no matter quality but not quantity right? For me, gurbani is most powerful and I feel its sublime message wash over me in waves whenever someone with true love in their hearts sings shabads with utmost devotion. Those people are few and far between but always worth the wait. That is the essence and the meaning of Sikh and Sikhism. You people embarrass yourselves and at times our religion by doing the things you do. Imagine, having a discussion on who should and shouldn’t be able to use kaur or singh. I don’t even have words to describe how you’ve wasted your time posting such nonsense. As with anything there is always a law of diminishing returns. Initially these things had to be said, in order to bring some reality to these forums. But as I realize more and more I’ll be labeled a Brahmin LOLOL, still can’t get over that one, I do find that the ratio of effort vs impact diminishing. Or if you prefer thrust vs payload efficiency is decreasing as this discussion drags on into the abyss of idiocy. Once again thank you for taking me further into this abyss by your highly intelligent dissertation on who is and isn’t a Sikh. Thank you for once again reaffirming why such a topic is needed. You repulse me. Anyone who agrees with me may I hear a simple “Praise the Lord”.

Can you please clarify the above? I've never heard it before.

Sorry, for hopping on the roller coaster, however i have a few words to say. First of all, you cant be overly sikh - it;s not possible. We should all try to get our fellow sikhs more interested in sikhi. This is not fanaticism, it's just sikh who are trying to encourage others, of course, it's bad to try and force it on another. If you do shave/cut your body hair, you are not a true sikh, however, you are still a disiple of guru ji. When amritdhari, you must not cut hair anywhere on your body. Singhs and kaurs, what is stopping you from wearing a turban? I mean, who is watching you? I'm always stunned to see sikhs especially boys not wearing dastar or head covering in public - be proud to be sikh!! This quote makes me question whether you really are sikh, your words are very offensive. The reason? Only the world and it's corrupt thinking would view our pure women in that way, womean and men are equal. I honestly hope your not amritdhari The above statement is a contradiction to what you said before. You were putting down women who don't cutt their hair in the previous paragraph, and then you talk about the SGGS as if you read it and you know it well? Perhaps you should be reading it again! You just insulted the khalsa sureal69... The rest of your paragraphs is just s***, go back and read the SGGS, and look around at your fellow sikhs before saying such offensive stuff. -Khalsa starr 113982[/snapback] I think I've made some valid points even if you've said most if not all my paragraphs are not worth looking at. I want to know where and when this whole thing about women wearing turbans started. Just a simple question, nothing more, threading has been around for a while in Punjab. So do you think sikh women back in the day didn't use threading to remove unwanted facial hair. Or is it this western image concious society that has oppressed women and forces them to conform? As for me being not a sikh, thats the last bastion of those who have no other argument. Call into question my sikhiness. Whatever. Do better than that. I've seen women in the gurudwara with a decent size beard doing seva and god bless them for it. But do you think that is what the gurus intended for us no to have a professional looking image? Once again, I do apologise for my earlier language as I reread some of my comments I do agree they may have caused offense. Do you agree that Sikhism needs to reach out to its youth and to cultivate a larger following for our religion. How is that possible if we keep putting more and more outward demands on practising sikhs? I can't imagine many women wanting to joing sikhism if it requires facial hair. I mean if you read the above post, the poor girl didn't even want to leave the house. Is that something you would want to happen to your own daughter, cousin, sister? Its not enough to say that we base this on ego or she shouldn't care what others think. I mean c'mon you can do better than that. What would be your answer to that poor girl's plight? Then look around and ask yourself who could benefit from a sikh way of life? Then ask yourself what precentage of these people would be able to live life like that? Its absurd. We are pushing away decent people that could add a great deal towards sikhism by making such demands.

- upon that head, the crow now cleans his beak. ||1|| so sir chunch savaareh kaag. ||1|| What pride should we take in this body and wealth? is tan Dhan ko ki-aa garab-ee-aa. Why not hold tight to the Lord`s Name instead? ||1||Pause|| raam naam kaahay na darirh-ee-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o. If you knew the nature of God, jay jaanas barahmaN karmaN. you would know that all of these beliefs and rituals are in vain. sabh fokat nischa-o karmaN. Says Nanak, meditate with deep faith; kaho naanak nihcha-o Dhi-aavai. without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||2|| vin satgur vaat na paavai. ||2|| But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3|| ih tan ho-igo bhasam kee dhayree. ||3|| Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful. oochay mandar sundar naaree. But without the Lord`s Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4|| raam naam bin baajee haaree. ||4|| Where did you come from? Where have You been? And where are You going? kujaa aamad kujaa raftee kujaa may ravee. Tell me the truth, in the holy city of Dwaarikaa. ||1|| davaarikaa nagree raas bugo-ee. ||1|| How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech. khoob tayree pagree meethay tayray bol. Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2|| davaarikaa nagree kaahay kay magol. ||2|| Please veer ji read the whole quote, as none of the above quote have anything to do with gender in relation to wearing a turban rather something completly different. 113975[/snapback] my point was to show that when turban is talked about, no gender is involved... 113977[/snapback] Thank you Pheena, Just reading the entire quote takes you away from all these discussions regarding dress and such petty contravercies. When the Granth Sahib mentions Pagri and Sardar, it is meant in a cultural context. In the above context it was meant with respect to who we think we are in life, ie pride etc. and that we should remember where we will be in death. To act accordingly. Please do not attempt to distort the meaning of what was written in order to prove a personal archiac point. Thank You.

You make a valid point Paneet, I've been shooting my mouth off for quite a while but I'm a guy. Lets hear from some of the ladies regarding the matter!

Dear Jeevan, Thank you for pointing out something that I may have overlooked. But I must admit I have never heard of Ravidass Gurudwara's. Where should there ever be any Ravidass Gurudwaras ? I thought that we were all sikhs? I will not blame the Chumars for wanting to be as far away from us Jatts as possible. We are the culprits in all of these endemic problems within sikhism. Our drinking is paramount as well as our love for the caste system. But once again accept my apologies for saying something that has offended you and your commet was with merit. later.

I'll try to clarify what I meant as it seems people who want to misinterpret what I have said will certainly do so. 1) Until the last few years you will admit that Sikh women did not wear turbans. I had never even heard of it until recently. It only came up after asking some uncles etc. within the last twenty years. 2) Choice regarding headwear: Look a cowboy hat covers ones head as well, you don't see me wearing one now do you. Sikhism is about covering one's head, but I am very much against women wearing turbans. Its a recent fanatical fashion trend as far as I'm concerned. Women wear scarfs or chunnis, men wear turbans. Men with beards women without. Maybe that makes me a tradionalist but thats what I meant. 3) If you choose as a woman to keep a beard and moustache and wear a turban, go right ahead. Just my opinion. But my main point being, that Sikhism was meant to be an open religion and I don't see any talk about this in any one of the chat rooms. This whole thing about guru ji wanting peoples heads is absurd, everything is upon interpretation. What is within the guru granth sahib to me is sacred. If Guru Gobind Singh had deemed it important, he would have placed within the Guru Granth. If it ain't there, then I'm not going to bother with it. He had every opportunity to list a group of laws and conventions within our Granth Sahib. HE DID NOT. That tells you alot. Look, I'm not out to anger anyone and I sincerly appologise for some of my language it doesn't belong here. But its just sad to see everyone so focused on hukam namas and Jatedar rehats. Yet rarely is anyone even talking about what really needs to be made clear. Gun gopal Jupo. (Praise the lord!) Sikhism is founded on our love for humanity and each other. Sad that every id or avatar or comment is full of swords, and images of sikhs carrying swords. What is this obession with militarism? When the time came to defend amritsar there were a handful of sikhs who laid down thier lives. Well under 200. During the height of militancy there were once agina a few hundred. All this sikh power thing is a myth, the longer we stray from Sikhisms true message the weaker we will always be. The saint comes before the soldier. You cannot fight effectively unless you have something to fight for. If there is no underlying belief then there is no warrior. As for sikh women with turbans, I find it unattractive, women with beards and moustaches I am repulsed by it. Its like we're becoming moslems slowly but surely. To wear facial hair for women is like a right of passabe to show how I don't care what anyone thinks and my ego. Whatever, its about looking presentable and professional. Anyways, I know I will never get through to alot of people but I believe it was worth the effort. Sikh women with beards and turbans is a recent phenomena not something that has been with us since the foundations of sikhism. Atleast admit that much. Yogi Haribajan from 3H0 or whatever made it popular amongst white sikhs. I think the Akand kirtan jathas or the khalistanis made it popular amongst themselves. I know of one man who used to beat his wife until the wore a turban because she didn't want to wear one. Now how sikh is that. Not one person has had the guts to talk about the girl who had excessive facial hair and refused to leave the house or do kirtan infront of people because of it. Remember the story posted up above? How many sikh guys who are cheering on this new "sikh women look" would marry a girl with a nice sizeable facial fuzz. Not many I bet, yet look at them talk. Hypocrites! Lets be real here people that all I've got to say.