DeccanSingh
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If I remember correctly from the Bhagvad Gita by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami the soul does not lose it's individuality when it dwells with Krishna. On the other hand it has already been proven Gurmat rejects the very notion of Krishna being the supreme being himself! How does this concept of the soul, propounded by the Gita, relate with Gurmat?
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Nice article on maharaj.
http://tisarpanth.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/the-divine-sovereign.html?view=timeslide
No pen can suffice to describe his greatness only attempts can be made.
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I was not going to say so , but after going through these , what is to say that Krishna isn't Akal Purakh Waheguru himself ?
O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||
ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.
ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. ||1||
ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਅਹਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੀ ਪਾਵਨ ਕੇਤਕ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across?
ਐਸਾ ਅਧਮੁ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਉ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਆਈਅਲੇ ॥੨॥੨॥
Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. ||2||2||
(SGGS : 988)
Pondering over above shabad , wasn't it Krishna who saved honor of draupadi ? Also , God is formless , Chakra is related to Krishna .
ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.
ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.
ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.
ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.
ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
( SGGS : 1082)
The above shabad also sounds similar to description of Krishna . Actually , a RSS Sikh hater used same shabad against me to prove that Sikhism also worships Krishna .
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥
He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.
(SGGS : 1105)
CAN SOME SIKHS PUT SOME LIGHT ON THIS TOPIC ?
The Bhagats were removed from the superficial bickerings of the RSS and other imbeciles. Bhagat Namdev expands upon Krishna's physical form whilst crediting the supreme Akal, who powers him as the true Krishna. The physical Krishna is only a hollow entity. His individuality is nothing but a figment of this illusory creation. The one who created him also created us. Subsequently that being also powers us and resides in us. If he could grant Krishna so much power, than imagine what he could do to us?
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I might be extremely harsh but what's up with all this incoherent english being thrown around? Your message itself is lost in all this ramble you have typed up, the only sense I can perceive makes it out to be some sort of a equivocal citation criticising some aspect of the Sikh community whilst requesting it to discard any radical attribute.
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source - sikhanswers.com
From 1892 to 1897, scholars assembled at the Sri Akaal Takht Sahib in Amritsar, known as the “Sodhak Committee”, to study the various hand-written Sri Dasam Granths. They concluded that Sri Dasam Granth was the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. However, the group of scholars who studied Sri Dasam Granth deleted 8 Banis (compositions) from the revised Granth which were present in Sri Dasam Granth claimed to be compiled by Bhai Mani Singh. The 8 Compositions deleted by the Sodhak Committee are the following:
1. Sansahar Sukhmana – It has 43 stanzas.
2. Vaar Malkauns – 11 pauris, Nanak Jo Prabh Bhawangey, Harji Harmandar Awangey.
3. Vaar Bhagauti Ji Ki – Different from Vaar Durga Ki – Bhagat Bhagauti Tis Ki, Jo Jan Dhir Dhre
4. Sri Bhagwat Gita Bhakha Sri Gobind Singh Kirt – translation and commentary of the Bhagavad Gita. It talks about the Khalsa warriors, the warriors in Krishnas army and other things. There is however doubt regarding the author. It starts with “Ik Oankaar Sri Waheguru ji ki fateh Patshahi 10″ but the writing style seems more similar to one of the court poets than that of Akaal Ustat or Bachittar Naattak etc.
5. Raag Aasa & Raag Soratth Patshahi Dasvin
6. Asfotak Kabits (Published by Randir Singh in Dasam Granth at Punjabi University)
7. Maajh Patshahi Dasvee’n
8. Chakka Bhagauti Ji Ka
Question arises as to why the Sodhak Committee deleted the following 8 compositions, and who authorized the committee members to do so. The original version of Sri Dasam Granth was not accepted by this Committee that suggests that the original version of this Granth has been altered and adulterated. The present-day published Sri Dasam Granth (1902) is the work of the Sodhak Committee.
Further re-examinations and reviews took place in 1931, under the guidance of the Darbar Sahib Committee of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabhandak Committee they too vindicated the earlier conclusion (agreeing that it was indeed the entire work of the Guru) and its findings have since been published.
Sri Dasam Granth is not our Guru and cannot match the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But it is a scripture of the Sikh religion and the has been with us for many centuries. Hence it deserves respect. In recent years Sri Dasam Granth has been at the centre of controversy with Professor Darshan Singh, the former Jathedaar of Sri Akal Takht, questioning its authenticity and message. Unfortunately he not only criticised the Granth but has used much derogatory language for it. When summoned to the Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Prof Darshan Singh was very arrogant and stubborn and refused to engage in any discussions on the topic in private. As a result of this, on 5th December 2009, after giving many chances to discuss the issue within the frameworks of Gurmat traditions, an edict was issued by the Sri Akal Takht Sahib asking the Panth to boycott him and declared him as a ‘Thankhayia’ (liable to chastisement/punishment).
The Sri Akal Takht has asked the worldwide Sikh community to not engage in any debates on Sri Dasam Granth in public. If any individual(s) wishes to contribute to the discussion on Sri Dasam Granth’s authenticty etc then they should present themselves before Sri Akal Takht Sahib and respectfully engage in scholarly discussions rather than rake controversies amongst the normal Sangat.
The 3rd Bani you mention in that list. I think it is also present in the Sri Sarbloh Granth or Sikh answers has made an error.
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The following screenshot is of the contents page from a dasam granth beerh at patna sahib from 1698AD. In the bottom left you can see the bani Sri Bhagwat Gita Bhakha Sri Gobind Singh Kirt listed.
Thank you for that.
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Follow up question would be who were in sodhak committe? were they fully qualified? What's was the reasoning for them taking out this text along with other 8? Was it ideological difference or writing style, binding indifference etc?
I guess that's a question for the blog. Follow their facebook link to their facebook page and ask.
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Tisarpanth and NihangSingh.org have some good articles on your question. Read those and see where you get.
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Thanks for detailed feedback bijla singh, really appreciate it, just add to below:
If we study other minority groups fighting for land like tamil, tibet..they already got rough constitution and they even have acting PM of tibet...i like their model, tibet has pm who is highly educated/diplomatic and is working closely with his counterpart dalai lama-spiritual advisor/leader while dala lamai spiritual leader is public figure, travels all around the world- winning public opnion of mass regarding autonomous tibet... tibet pm - Lobsang Sangay- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Sangay, working in the background. ..i really think we desperately need constitution rough drafted and hopefully get everyone to agree on broader constituation points then move from there. May be thats why other groups including many sikhs themselves are not taking concept of khalistan seriously, we have nothing, nothing rough drafted.
To start with Sikhi imbues diversity in many forms. We have Nihungs, Nirmalas, Udasis and many others on the sidelines. What do they receive out of Khalistan? Traditionally many Udasis such as the Suthra Shahi branches did not retain their kesh . Even today many Udasis are devoid of facial hair and adorn tilaks. What happens to them? Will they be put through a forced process of osmosis and made into what the mainstream wants them to be or will they retain their unique individuality? Will the Nihungs consume meat or will they have a panthic rehat police after them 24/7? Will Hazoor Sahib still perform a sargun saroop aarti or will the rehat police also ban that? So far we haven't been able to prove the morality of Khalistan, other than Sikhs will be free, so when will we draft a constitution? And will all Sikhs be free? Maybe the panth should resolve all these differences before diving headfirst into the notion of an independent country or we will end up like another India.
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If we look at the article the author does not go against or support Khalistan. Let the political matters rest where they lie and instead focus on the spiritual precepts highlighted by the author.
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Does this kirt exist in puratan(period:1690-1760) Shree Dasam Granth Saroops? or only a few selected ones written after that puratan period?
Phokat Kabit is claimed as bani when it was not even found in Puratan saroops for example.
From what I am aware (I am sure the Sodhak committee report is available online) all purataan Dasam Granth Birs include Uggardanti, Bhagauti Astotar, this Bani, and a few others which were removed on the basis of the committee's understanding.
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The article has nothing against Khalistan. The author does seem ignorant of the concept of Khalsa Rule and out of reality about the beginning of Khalsa Rule.
I don't think the author is trying to define Khalsa raaj in a political sense, but more from a spiritual perspective.
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You and some others on this website can keep on promoting the myth of "Judeo-Christian framework" by using these types of random labels including Hindu-phobia.
No one is saying that Guru Gobind Singh Jee couldn't write it. He could write whatever he wants! (Again you are twisting words).
But realistically, He didn't write this.
And you are basing that assumption on what? One, a single, academic's summary which might or might not be evidentially authentic.
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What institutes? You can try and twist my words whatever way you want to make it seem like I "answered [my] own question".
Institutes in this case are sampradas or traditional bodies such as Nihungs, Udasis and Nirmalas. As for the Hinduphobia query, it seems quite radical to say that the Guru could never write something like this. The validity of the latter belief was first questioned by the Sodhak committee because this work hampered it's progress in defining a Sikhism in a Judeo-Christian framework.
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There is not even one pre singh sabha translations which supports your translations its ridiculous..do check farid kot teeka, read pandit narian singh dasam granth teeka...the first time i realized how insecure neo tat khalsa were, when i read your sarbloh granth translations regarding gyan and bhagti ..its literally showed how desperate/insecure you were regarding your wrapped neo tat khalsa idealogy that you have adhere to...you made up as you went all along, ... I call spade a spade as i see there is systematic brainwashing of youths making them more self absorbed in their vanity false pride and i choose to uphold old traditional gurmat than reformist one... there is no down playing there is no beating around bushes...we hosted all types of right wing/left nut jobs on sikhawareness so we know all different types. You have nothing else to offer against same old crap against vedas by rejecting all of it, if you reject theological framework of vedas-vaishvanvas/vishiadvaita/advaita-vedant you are inadvertently rejecting gurbani aspects- advait/bhagti aspect in gurmat as its theological/etmology framework is one and same. Ultimate Bhram/divine expereince of sikh saints and hindu saints is one and same, bhramgyan avastha- turiya avastha/turiya atith avastha is one and same.
I have spent good time with hindu collegue freinds, build up dialogue with them (patch up interfaith relationship which neo khalistanis destroyed) regarding sikhi/indic snatan dharma at work and also read upanishads/vedas- essence message is very similiar, those hindus at work are at advance level meditation practitioners, none of them beleive in crap you demonize them.
From my perspective the Gurus were against dogmatic belief, but emphasized faith. With faith one gains personal experience and thus liberation. That person is a true Khalsa.
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Probably the greatest enemies of Gandhi's legacy is Hindus themselves!
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Seems to me that some individuals may have academic-phobia.
Those who have looked at Krishan-Lal's poetry and compared it to the Gobind Gita know the truth.
The court poets of Guru Gobind Singh Jee had immense love and praise for Him, so it's not out of the question that Krishan Lal attributed it to Guru Gobind Singh Jee ('Tu Samrath Vadaa, Meri Mat Thori Raam' style of thinking as per Gurmat, destroying ego, everything is done by SatGuru).
Vidya-Sagar Granth had not only Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Baani in there, but also LOTS of writings from His court poets...
It is widely agreed that Gobind Gita is one of the few portions of the Vidya-Sagar Granth which remain.
So there's only two options, either it's Krishan-Lal's composition, or it's Guru Gobind Singh Jee's.
Just because the evidence leads to it being Krishan-Lal's work doesn't mean that it's "Hinduphobia".
The Kavi's name is KRISHAN LAL for heaven's sakes......where is the Hindu-phobia?
Please don't make stuff up...
You just answered your own question. Other than the Sodhak committee all other institutes have agreed that this composition is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's own work.
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ਦੇਖੋ, ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਲਾਲ.ਕਾਸ਼ੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਰਿਲਾਲ ਦਾ ਭਾਈ, ਜੋ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਦੇਵ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੋਇਆ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਹਰਿਲਾਲ। ੨. ਇੱਕ ਕਵਿ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਮਹਾਭਾਰਤ ਦਾ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਕਵਿਤਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਲਥਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ. ਇਸ ਨੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦. ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਹੇਠ ਭਗਵਤ ਗੀਤਾ ਦੇ ੧੮. ਅਧ੍ਯਾਯ ਲਿਖੇ ਹਨ, ਇਸ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ "ਗੋਬਿੰਦਗੀਤਾ" ਭੀ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਹੈ. ਪਰੰਤੂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਕਵਿਤਾ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਫ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਰਚਨਾ ਦਸ਼ਮੇਸ਼ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕਿੰਤੂ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਲਾਲ ਦੀ ਹੈ.KRISHAN LAL:Krishan Lal was one of the court poets of Guru Gobind Singh. He translated the Mahabharata into Hindu poetry. Gobind Gita which he attributed to Guru Gobind Singh was in all probability written by him. It contains 18 chapters of the Bhagvat Gita in the poetic style of Krishan Lal and not of the Guru.
Interesting what was his agenda in attributing his own work to the Guru? Smacks of Hinduphobia.
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Here is more information regarding gobind gita:
http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/52957-gobind-gita/
On one of those threads an individual mentions Guru Nanak Dev Ji writing an essence as well, which is retained by the Udasi samprada. Can you please clarify a bit on that?
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Can someone provide a pdf or a link to buy this?
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I have heard so much about Baba Jee. He is a true Nihang and a very high avastha Mahapurakh. I want to know their jeevan and their daily routine. I hope some young Nihang Veer tells us about this Mahaan Gurmukh.
From what I know Baba Ji was given charge of Gurudwara Shaheedi Bagh by Akali-Nihung Kirtan Singh Ji, who also elected Akali-Nihung Makhan Singh Ji as his successor. Both mahapurakhs are a part of the Tarna Dal. Baba Ji lives at Anandpur from where he has supported the present dissemination of the Sri Sarbloh Granth and other forgotten or veiled traditions of the Khalsa.
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Have you read Bachittar Natak?
Another one? Why don't you clarify your objective first.
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have u read Krishna avtar?
Your point here is? The Guru does not deify any individual he praises and criticises them as per their merits. I am sure even Krishna himself is against the Hindutva rampage in India.
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