sikhiseeker

Good points my friend. Doesn't show the whole picture though. In fact, it totally ignores the existence of the 50% of Sikhs that are female as if they are irrelevent as human beings. And that goes back to my point doesn't it ? the one where I say there are some communities among the Sikhs (lets use Tarkhans and Khatris because you specifically mentioned them above) where the majority of men have dastaars but their wives have cut hair. I personally don't see how these men add any value to Sikhism as 'Sikhs' when the mothers of their children are basically Hindus.

You made a mild rant about Jatts in your post but you are failing to recognise the current rennaisance in all things Sikhi among the Sikh youth in Britian. Seeing how I, unlike you, also count females as human beings too, one could argue how it is only the jatts keeping Sikhism alive by being the only ones with a dastaar and amritshak. (you can count on one hand the entire number of bhappa females that are amritdhari and dastaar wearing).

So you see your argument above is valid but only if one wishes to ignore the existence of half our number purely because of gender. Personally, I feel the female Sikhs are even more important than the men as they give birth to Sikhs.

Yes and yes. Yes I do have strong opinions and yes I do tend to keep my eyes open when I'm in public places as I have often found that keeping them closed leads to accidents, falls and trips.

WJKK WJKF ( that "J's" don't stand for JATT)

It's funny bro how your demonising whole communities of Sikhs under caste preservation, all under your "sikh" opinion. It's also funny how you seem to forget that the majority of the Jatts after leaving panjab and going out to abroad like the uk and canada cut their hair (men and women) to gain jobs and be accepted and progress. Now that the 2nd/3rd generations of these original Immigtant Jatts are well educated and financially secure, they have somehow remembered the religion they turned their back on. Other sikh communities didn't lose their dharam, struggled for work, opened the very first gurdware and also succeeded, with their religious dignity intact.

The point is, all castes/braderi have pro's and cons, the Khalsa has only pro's.....which do you affiliate with? Caste or Khalsa as both can never be affiliated like oil and water!

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I have question to the above posters if you all are amrithdahries ..The Question is "Why did you take Amrit when You still know you are behaving like Any Hindu or Brahmin?

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LOL, good point brother, I think this user thought this was jattworld.com but mistakenly came on a sikh forum. It's always the same case scenario isn't it veer, using percentages and derogatory language for their supremacist cause.

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Surely, the Khalsa should be on the side of the innocent, Israeli and Palestinian alike? The religion if both is unimportant, the actions of both toll heavy on the innocent.

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These so called Sikhs in the above video will suffer in many janams for what they just did to the sadhu sant in the video, an innocent in which akal purakh dwells too, the hand what struck this innocent man shall eventually be turned, the hand will be that of alkali nihang shiri guru gobind Singh Ji who will slap these idiots after tainting Guru Nanak Mahrajs nirmal Khalsa panth.

I think he is not Sikh, look at this link http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/pavandeep-paul-big-brother-2014-3861132 , ties his paagh like a tharkhan and has the surname of a chumar. Suddenly becomes "Pav Singh" for TV purposes.

WJKK WJKF

What turban style would make your insecurities on caste preference feel better?

His surname suddenly becoming "Singh" is stereotypical of all punjabi people when it's suits, like how jazzy b is apparently a great role model as is the very caste orientated chap, Diljit Dosanjh!

Again, why such castist comments surpass this forum defies logic, as it is meant to be a "sikh" forum. Last time I looked, caste is all about Hindus, nothing to do with us Sikhs!?

No he's a Katri / Arora bhappa Sikh. The new British born generation of the Afghan Sikhs that arrived in the 90's.

I was at the Parkash at the Guru Nanak School in hayes on Sunday and I would say 75% of the sangat there were these Afghan bhappas. You see them and you instantly notice 2 things about them :

1) Sikhism is only for men. Sikhism does not apply to their wives and daughters. The men have paghs (very very small paghs that are even smaller than some small caps and hats these days) but they ensure their wives are hair-cutted / hair-styled and slutified with hooker type make-up and regalia.

2) Every one of the males has his hair uncut but thats about it. Its as if the uncut hair on the head and the pagh is the sole requirement of being a Sikh. Apart from that, anything goes.

In so many ways Pav Singh actually lives up to his group's stereotype in much the same way as that American hotelier Chadha does. The pagh on the head is just the family tradition. Inside, there is no pyar for Sikhi, only for wealth and they'l gladly take the inequities that come with it.

WJKK WJKF

How your above comment is permitted on this forum goes totally over my head? You have brought this topic down to his ancestry/caste when really it has zilch to do with it. You quickly judge other Sikhs level if sikhi, when sikhi teaches their is only one judge, which is not you or me!

Pav Singhs weakness/strength in sikhi is simply his own, not a whole communities.

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The topic on the Amritdhari Harnam Kaur who was recently in the media for being a bearded lady was locked on sikhsangat as the reason was that she was not able to represent herself on this forum? How can this topic on Pav Singh then be permitted?

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Great post veer ji, I was unaware of this gurdwaras existence and obviously this Tiguas is connecting to the shabad guru ji spoke at kurkshetra within our gurbani. Great info.

Thanks for the education!

WJKK WJKF,

yeah and Kaurs such as Mai Bhago proved it by fighting in the battles alongside Singhs. Similarly the Kaurs who defended themselves in 1984 is amazing too.

Sometimes I just don't know why the kaurs of today under estimate themselves (including me at times) :no:

WJKK WJKF

Not just female sikhs but many male sikhs fall short too! However rather than condemn and judge we should educate and bring them back with posts such as yours, inspiring and bringing sikhs together through similarity and not recognising the difference.

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one point which is kinda lost on this subject is that we put blame on in this case, to the Muslim males, but what about the actual "sikh" girls? They are at fault themselves in equal percentage. This issue is about girls from "sikh" families who know nothing about their heritage, tradition and dharam. Hence why they will date not just Muslim males however many other people from other religions. The problem lies within our own communities as we preach unity and equalty, yet we practice nothing but.

There are many "sikh" males who choose to marry out of sikhi, these too should be highlighted in my opinion. As this is manmatt exactly the same as any girl, however it is for some reason socially excepted.

Any male or female who does as such, in my opinion only demonstrate their personal weakness within our own dharam. That they lack knowledge and love for our blood drenched sikhi. Only by smearing ones spirit with the blood of our shaheed through gurbani will one fully understand sikhi.

These poor people are weak links within sikhi hence why they find it so easy to be broken away from the links and convert. If they never understood the equality of Akal Purakh waheguru's sikhi, then what chance would they have understanding Islam or Christianity?

The way in which to combat this is not trying to bed Muslim girls, rather educating your own children and family in your own four walls of your home. Bhagti through Education and gurbani and shakti through practising martial traditions and physical/emotional training.

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The Excorism of Emily Rose- The Virgin Mary gave emily rose one option, to leave her life in death and the possession would obviously cease, emily rose chose to live throughout the Possession and it's unspeakable physical and spiritual torture, as if people saw and read her story and derived that her tormentor was the devil, then god would have to exist! Another Mahaan shaheed of Akal Purakh waheguru may her soul rest in peace in mukhti.

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Great post!!! The gurus daughter is as strong as the gurus son, what a beautiful thing!

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How long will continue to live in the past and live off out past glories? The question is- how many so called "modern Sikhs" would have the courage to do this?? Not too many I am afraid.

WJKK WJKF

We should always remember out Mahaan shaheed brothers and sisters, we should tell our children's about these historical occurrences. Otherwise there will be no inspiration for sikhs of such courage in modern times. We always remember and thank out shaheed every time we do ardas.

WJKK WJKF

What you are saying is correct but whats so funny about it that you have to " lolz" about your own thoughts.

WJKK WJKF

It's not that I find myself funny, it's that the usual unnecessary extensions and fund raising done by gurdwara to make their gurdwara better than the one 600 yards down the road better which I find funny and this is usually the mentality where I live across the board in the uk. That's why there is Sarcasm and exaggeration in my previous post which unfortunately has been missed. Il try and be funnier next time or better still just put a stop to it right now and should take my thoughts very seriously.

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I think the gurdwara in Norwich is the only one within a 50 mile radius. It serves a small community of sikhs there which wish to renevate the delapadated premises as funds are minimal from the Norwich sikh sangat.

I think rather than straight away criticise the sangat for trying to improve their gurdwara, we should do good to remember that every gurdwara is sanjha as it is our own. It seems that this gurdwara is asking sangats help for their dasvand as it is in an unfit state. Not to fit another dome on top lol. But on a serious note, where I live there's 3 gurdwareh, and then in Wolverhampton there's about a 10,000 then in Birmingham there's around 100,000 lol, so I'm very luv key to have sikh facilities to accommodate my way of life. That's why the Norwich sadh sangat deserve the sikh facilities in their gurdwara to further forward and educate our youth, if the gurwara reviews no financial help, what happens to the sikh youth in that area?

So sikho, let's not criticise, let's sympathise lolz!

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If you got young kids pra, I'd go with carpet with underlining as it's good for kids when them learning to crawl and when they fall over. If not, wooden floor restrained is real nice, but alittle bit noisy and cold. You always end up getting a big rug in the middle anyway. Iv got young kids so got my dining room with oak flooring with a rug under the dining table, both living rooms with good thick carpet and underlayet and the hallway floor with high gloss tiles following all the way into te kitchen as it's more hygienic and easy cleaning however the high gloss tiles are a nightmare to keep shiny a stain free as you see every little mark on them and its a OCD overload!

WJKK WJKF

It's very encouraging sane majority voices from muslim world are outraged by this:

Here is good comment by muslim brother from CNN..This is how condemnation needs to be done:

WJKK WJKF

Its very good to see Muslims condemning what's happening, however the condemnation of acts like the cold blooded murder of the British soldier Lee Rigby, may his soul rest in peace with waheguru should also be quickly condemned by Muslim councils and Muslim communities. When terrorist attacks occur in the name of Allah and Islam, Muslims are very slow to condemn and make a noise about their condemnation to show the world that not all Muslims have the same interpretation of the Koran. The fact that this is a incident evolving a Muslim man and Muslim children should not mean that Muslims should now show their condemnation on a larger scale internationally, as it being based on an internal issue within Muslims. It should be condemned as a direct assault on someone's human rights. This same peel of condemnation should of been put across on incidents like the murder of Lee Rigby.

Also, in sharia law a women should only get one quarter of a will and a male 3 quarters. So if a man had a son and two daughters, the will would not be devided equally by the 3 siblings. The son would get a half and the two daughters a quarter each! Sharia law isn't as equalitarianism as the Muslim poster divulges, even though his intentions are commendable.

Crazy to think, what happened in our gurus life times in kal jugh, is still occurring in our life times in kal jugh. We need more of our Mahaan shaheed like Dhan Dhan Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh ji to be born and once again, sent by Akal Purakh waheguru!

WJKK WJKF

Bad news, sikhs should always be tiar bar tiar, we are losing our martial ability.

WJKK WJKF

OMG!!! Wahegurus creation is just unbelievable! How perfect!

Thanks for the upload veer ji!

Sikhiseeker's message (above) is confusing. It's neither here nor there. After reading it 2 or 3 times I still can't figure out if he or she says it's ok or not.

Brother, I know exactly how you feel. I haven't been to the banquet hall wedding party of anyone in over 10 years. I always go to the gurdwara marriage. I never go to the parties afterwards. What would I gain from doing so ? Spiritually speaking it is soul destroying, and I'm not even Amritdhari so I can't believe how any amritdhari can feel comfortable in such places. How can their light shine in such a place? Just by being there he brings shame to himself and other Sikhs and so it is truly destructive on every level.

We cannot serve two masters.

But even leaving spirituality out of it for the moment it is morally corrosive from an ethical and social point of view.

We cannot bury our heads in the sand and pretend we just don't know. We know the debt / suicide rate in Punjab is epidemic. We know most of this comes from the lavish wedding parties and marrying off your children. We know they in Punjab look to us in the west to set the trends and by default set the right example. We know if we set the right example they will follow suit. Instead we carry on spending these obscene amounts of money of parties in banquet halls even though we know full well people will kill themselves as a result of it in Punjab, families will be ruined through debt because of it in Punjab, social problems will worsen because of it in Punjab.

Set the right example. Go to the marriage in the Gurdwara. Then go home.

WJKK WJKF

sorry for my staggered post lol! I'm all for going to the party as the whole world is in the last half of kal jugh, you can't simply remove yourself from it. If a gursikh hides themselves and the gian of sikhi what they know, that in itself is paap as a gursikh should do parchar of the guru everywhere 24/7. A gursikh should know how to stand which izhat in any place in any situation, just how when raja shivnabh of sangladeep (now Sri Lanka) sent dancing girls (prostitutes) to halt the gurus arrival at sangladeep, the guru referred to them as his sisters and daughters at which point the girls realised that this was no normal man, slave to the five vices, I'm sure they would of learnt something from that meeting? Hence why we as sikhs should stand anywhere and still represent of guru, we may fail however the importance is understanding where you failed an how to empower yourself and correct the fault within your Mann.

Hope I cleared up my earlier gibberish!

WJKK WJKF

Adapt simple honesty-truthfulness-sat, integrity, bibek (higher intellect to filter right from wrong thoughts) virtues you cannot go wrong, be honest with yourself as none knows you better than yourself -inner real self and besides satguru inside. If your vision senses are easily heavily influenced by outer noise then avoid going there. However, if you have established little contemplation on bairaag, dhian and vichar on shabad then time for you test it and move on learning if you fail it and improve it next time if you fail it (where thoughts are wandering away to outer noise) atleast it should invoke to start higher spiritual quest with earnestly next time. This could be good test for yourself to gauage where you stand as far thoughts in mind goes, see if you can establish dhian on gurmat English vichar while there via mobile ,test it where you stand- observe what thoughts you are getting with bibek while you are in banquet. Sure lot of situations can be avoided, but some situations is beyond our control, no point in being dilemma- absolute reality (Ikongkar) exist everywhere- amrit and poison exist everywhere, its up to your mind whether to dwell in amrit or poison. You can also listen to gurbani with headphones while there that adress your concerns.

Most people dont' want to face themselves in mirror in honesty and most people will brush under lining issues they have under the carpet keep down playing them/band aids fixes until they revolt ugly as opposed to facing them head on with bibek on from the point of conception- stand truthfully stand infront of satguru with honesty, learn from downfalls, adapt true bairaag while reading gurbani to naturally get to state- Gurmukh maya vich udasi.

This is ithasik sakhi-

In Sri guru gobind singh ji darbar there were two group of sikhs wanted to go to mela but one can go..one had to do seva of guru maharaj ..sri guru gobind singh ji sent one group of people to test and others were not too happy. So after the mela group came back..both groups were called in guru maharaj darbar..the group that went to mela were addressed- o sikhs you guys are great, during your time spent in mela your mind was attached to my lotus feet, you were thinking about me , you guys were bairaagi you guys were gurmukh maya vich udasi now guru maharaj addressed to the group which was in hazaar nazaar in sri guru gobind singh ji hazoori doing seva, guru maharaj said even though you were physically present in guru maharaj darbar try to do seva physically, your mind was wandering in mela, have all sort of thoughts things in mela...in this way guru maharaj gave updesh to both groups.

WJKK WJKF

Great post, great reference and great advice! Keep it up brother!

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IMHO one can't hide from the world. In situations like these where maryada does not mention any guideline, I try and look at the sakhiya of fbte gurus. In this case, it reminds me of when the guru told the sadhu sants in the Himalayas that theirs no point hiding up in the mountains if you do not agree with the world and you have gian, go down and make a change..... In the same instance by you respecting that someone wishes your family and your personal presence on a celebratory occasion should be respected, you being in the banqueting hall changes nothing. It doesn't undo the naam you have spoken. It's making a stance in society, that you respect the people, but will not participate in the culture as it is not rehat. People "should" respect that, as you have respected them and maybe someone their will see the example you set and their sleeping soul might wake up!

Hope that helps!

WJKK WJKF

Lol! That is so weak and down right untrue. Anyway I have been told it was reviewed by Derby Gurughar.

He had finished the point and had moved on to another topic. The video has been put up on youtube.

All the other speakers spoke of the need to tackle the issue of caste, as it is a problem within our community. He said "caste will end with time (implying we don't need to get involved.) Time always changes things. The same water that comes out of the tap in our houses is the same water that is in our homes in our toilets. You are all knowledgable have you ever drank water out of the toilet?? Because it is a matter of quality. When people will change their habits and obtain 'ghun' then others will start liking them!!!!!! And then caste will end!!!!!!!!! Implying that people of lower social status are without ghun and unliked!!!!

Bhai Joga Singh made an excellent speech. Following this the other speaks talks utter rubbish.

I have just been informed they are reviewing what happened and having a follow up show this Sunday where the person has been asked to clarify what he meant. This will be interesting. Especially as I have since heard this has not been the first time he has used this example when informing someone that so called 'lower class' people are beneath him. I have also been told that three people have witnessed him saying the exact same thing previously.

Here's the video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XgexN81z2Sg

Follow up show Sunday 4th May at 16.00 from Derby Gurdwara. Respect to Sangat Tv for bringing this issue up after reviewing their position. I don't think the guy will clear his position on Sunday because how can he? I think if the issue is not cleared anti discrimination groups should take up the issue with full vigour.

A Singh from kesri Lehar just came on Venus tv and absolutely slated the kempston gurdwara speaker for his views. Will upload soon. Said totally against sikhi and rajoana sohchi which he stands up for.

WJKK WJKF,

Totally agree with your views, it's funny how it's an "alleged" incident and how "overall" the speaker is anti caste lol? What a metaphor to use, how daft do they think sangat is to state in their clarification that the metaphor he gave was about equality, rightly said by you you only drink water from a tap, not out the toilet as due to the quality and more to the point and stating the obvious, one urinates and excretes in the toilet! Why oh why would someone use that as a metaphor lol? As got the sangat, either they supported his views or many were simply giddhar, as a sikh of Shiri guru gobind Singh would have roared this fool down. I'm not to concerned either about when and what the akj'a believe system is or what they are based on, as my only believe system is that of one kaum, one caste, one creed, one khalsa!

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@ _gupt_ and simran345- my family have done this on wedding cards what have gurbani on and also old pictures of the gurus as a clean way to dispose of the paper out of respect doing agan peth. There are many learned sikhs on this site which can redirect me if this is in anyway wrong. If you want to say mool mantar or whichever Paath or even waheguru simran, it's upto you, it's your personal relationship with waheguru. In whatever situation you choose to say gurmantar, it is a good thing, go crazy I say lol.

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Either light them with fire so they turn to ash or just immerse them in a river or in the sea.

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