sikhiseeker

actually its simpletons who believe in conspiracies that you state genie

care to explain what I posted what was anti sikhi??

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You do not need to be rude, we are all sikhs here. If you did not want to contribute to such a topic then why contribute? Just refrain from giving your view and let other sangat members converse.

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America is trying once again to use NATO as it's puppet to put weaponry directed towards Russia legally as they can't go marching in themselves and do it! The tables are indeed shifting, I think the ancient calendar of the Mayans actually predicted this rather than the world ending in 2012, it demonstrates the change of human emotion and world power leading to world war and the climax of kal jug.

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I agree, but there should be more emphasis on Sikhs not to kill female foetus's as well.

Plus you have to actually raise them as Sikhs, no point in having four kids if you dont teach them anything about Gurmat and the Panth.

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agree with you, it would be good if he realised the other reason why sikhi is on the downfall, him being one of them lol.

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The SGPC, Indian government/officials and unfortunately the fraudulently led Shri Akal Takhat are not going to do nothing about this situation.

Realisticly, our sikh brothers and sisters living in other countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and even Gujrat need empowerment within themselves, within the countries in which they live in, as the three above mentioned institutes do nothing to protect sikhs within India, why would they help sikhs living abroad? It is now the sikh sangat who live in India and all over the world who have to display to these institutes how us sikhs should live and support one another where ever we are living in the world geographically.

People in Pakistan also need to realise the world is a big place with many colours and religions. Just how a Muslim has the right to build a mosque in India or here in the UK, other faiths have the right to worship freely within Pakistan, if someone or a representative of a group dishonours their religious practice, they should deal with that person and the associated party within the law of the land, not then just go round trying to once again burn and plunder other innocent people and their establishments of faith as we are not in 1947, it's actually 2014!

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Bro forget about Nihangs. Question should be, where are the Sikhs in general? this is besti of the entire Sikh Nation. Every Sikh is a Sipahi. When we see a Sikh in distress, it's our duty to help our brother and not just stand there like a silent spectator. During the 80s right after 1984, in many parts of urban Punjab, there became such a situation that there were attacks on Sikhs in the urban areas of Punjab which were heavily dominated by Hindus because back than there were very few Sikhs in the urban centers of Punjab.

Right after 1984 my uncle and his friend both riding on a motorcycle were passing by when they saw a lone Sikh being attacked by a couple of Hindus. They began doing beadbi of the Sikhs dastar and beard. Just then my uncle and his friend stopped immediately and came to the aid of the Sikh while beating up those Hindu attackers. Back then Sikhs had a sense of brotherhood. An attack on one was an attack on all.

This new incident happened in Amritsar of all place. Amritsar is like our historic cultural/religious capital. Historically Sikhs have always made a decisive last stand in this holy city. This is one place where beadbi of a Sikh's dastar should not take place.

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I agree with your posts, the ideology behind your opinion is spot on , however the reality is not many so called sikhs are tyar bar tyar, even if they carry Shastar how many know how to affectively use it?

We really have come so from the khalsa fauj because of westernisation and other contributing factors. The only tyar bar tyar we many sikhs are, is when theirs a party with sharaab!

The sad fact of the matter is, their is a certain arrogance amongst all Indians which I personally think is cultural and characteristic for the whole of India, if someone was being attacked in the uk, no matter who, someone would of come to the aid of the victim. Were at a stage of time now what mirrors when our guru tegh bahadur shaderdi took place and our guru gobind Singh asked shaheed bhai jeevan Singh ji, "was their no sikhs there", to which the answer he received guy ji replied he would create such a sikh, one would be recognisable in a crowd of 100,000, unfortunately, these days they are distinguishable, but not recognisable as the shakti of many sikhs has all but gone. In the sense that no one, not even sikh police officers, local sikh residents of Amritsar could come to the aid of our brother who was attacked.

How sad.

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This happened a few minutes away from the Harmandir Sahib, it shows how little the Sikhs can do in India. One Kirpan against a mob is of little use, when Sikhs are attacked its always against a massive mob, often aided by the Police. Our Jathabandis need to take collective action, however most are under the control of India and have done nothing.A bigger insult is that it happens on Hola Mohlla, the anti Sikh groups are basically saying the Sikh warriors are for show only these days.If only a few Nihangs turned up in Amritsar they would get the message however no one comes to a Sikhs aid.

WJKK WJKF,

I agree with your post, I just don't understand why the nihang don't do anythink? The anti-sikh groups opinion of sikhs being weak now has to derive from partly this and also as you mentioned politically led agenders.

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Alien abduction?

DEFINATELY

Some facts>..

firstly, these are not family names,,these are caste names...which means gotra...Take a time and go india and see what these people do with these gotra...and at the day of khalsa..they go to these gotra places and bow down

secondly, There was hardly any sikh guru who was using his caste name ...except oe of them..

thirdly..favoring caste names we are not sikh ,,we are still hindus..

fourthly, in ancient times there were groups and they formed a unique name for their own group.....and it was tradition of being married from one group to another group of same profession. In sikhism we should not marry in relatives that mean those who have blood relations. but sikhism does not prohibit marrying in the same pind unless there is any blood relation...

fifthly, we are indian so we know we follow western people somehow....we look at their surnames and family names and at last we think and make our castevnames as family names..In actual Singh,kaur,kumari,kumar,Dev, Rani,Rana,Raja...these some of the surnames in indian history..

I m wondering ,,if Tenth Guru would not have created khalsa and did not give a name "sikh to Guru nanak's Gaddii.. Are we gonna believe in caste Cancer?? was guru nanak's energy going to be wasted ?? Tell me the name of any guru except Guru Gobind ji who believed in castes?????

Wake up sikhs...don't hide your weaknesses ..except the truth ..do what gurus want from us...follow what has been said .About 60 years ago ,,,A biggest mistake was done by Mooorakh sikh leaders rejecting B.R. Ambedkar to be a part of sikhism,that resulted into heavy loss of sikhism....Have we learnt something from it?? No not at all...........because We lick the balls of brahimans.........no doubt..

Do you see the future of sikhism?? ofcourse it is ..but unfortunately not in indian communtiy..... I wish someone like HITLER should come and every indian should be caught from every part of the world and hanged till death...because at last its Hindu blood,,it behaves in the way as arayans tell people....how can we think that we can be sikh when we already know its hindu blood and that caste cancer has been involved in this blood.......

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Dear brother,

I understand, agree and support your view if the casteless sikhi. But I do not agree with your sentiments about someone like Hitler hanging Indians from around the world as it is Hindu blood. Brother, do not let anger take over your compassion, the khalsa is the protector of people and faiths not the destroyer as Hitler did. The Second World War was a terrible time in history not so long ago which should never, ever be repeated in any circumstance.

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Brother, both the statements you made above are untrue.

I don't know where you've been 'noticing' bhatra surnames but most of the ones I encounter use surnames such as Rathore, Potiwal, Digwa, Bhakar etc.

I don't know where you've gone to 'notice' that jatt sikhs don't have Kaur and Singh as their middle names because I've never met one that doesn't in my whole life.

More often than not, villages in Punjab are named after the jatt clan that founded the village. Thus, jatt surnames denote which village they are from.

Now....the thing is....it's all very well starting threads which allude to being 100% against 'caste'. You can get away with it too when you rely on the general ignorance of people not knowing what your username actually means. Where the ruse falls apart is when knowledgable people such as myself appear and ask how someone that calls himself 'tera' (another name for Bhatra) in his username can start a thread supposedly against 'caste'.

As a side note, I do wish to ask a question you may be able to help me with. In my line of work I do regularly have dealings with bhatra sikh females. As a rule, a very large number of them sem to have Hindu first names such as Geeta, Seema and Laxmi etc. In passing I've mentioned it one or two of them and they told me they were from Delhi before they married a british bhatra male and it was common for them to share a sikh and hindu identity as bhatra sikhs believe that Sikhi as sikhi is supposed to be practiced is only for men....NOT women.

Can you shed some light ?

WJKK WJKF,

Dear Brother,

Just because some sikhs have names in relation to Hindu gods and goddesses and other beings from Hindu scripture and history doesn't make them a Hindu. For example Shiri guru Ram Das, Shiri guru Arjan dev, Shiri guru har krishan. All these above stated names have relation to Hinduism however does it then make our gurus Hindu?

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Dear Brother and sisters,

We should all fight for equality and one sikhi. The very fact that this topic has become about "jatt" and "bhatra" is a reflection of the misunderstanding of sikhi. There can never be jatt sikh, bhatra sikh or whatever else, there can only be a guru ka sikh.

My brother Cisco Singhs point is right that when amrit is adopted one becomes Singh and Kaur and I think the original point of amrit was that the set of amrit dhari khalsa parents would obviously initiate and administer the holy ambrit to their children and so on...this is how it was meant to be, hence why the suffix Singh and Kaur should be passed on however this has been broken and the issues which have been discussed on this forum present day are a direct consequence of this.

We should all take steps to our guru, forget our caste affiliations and the whole "my caste is better than yours" and unite!

Family names should be passed down through knowledge, only for the purpose of "a" cannot marry "a" and nothing else, we should be initiated with amrit and follow the hukum. Anyone who believes in the ten gurus and the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji but has not drank the holy amrit should only refer themselves to be a sikh, when they understand the sacrifice and cost of which our shaheed gave for the privilege to call themselves sikhs. If they believe in the superiority of their caste whether it be jatt or bhatra, they should understand they are not simply sikh. They are a product of their caste and void of any understanding of sikhi.

In Bara Maha da Paath, it states :

This is Nanak's prayer: "Please show Your Mercy, and bestow Your Name.

The gurus Khalsa is casteless, creed-less, genderless, ageless and colourless, yet we still argue for caste supremacy? Lolz

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SINGH4PEACE is right for stating the following "In this democratic world, let them do what they are doing. If these people are converting on their own will then I see nothing wrong."

The problem is recognising the underline issue why people are converting to different religion. Do they truly find peace and get treated as equals?

India is a vast country with many different cultures, languages and as communities move from one state to another, its common trait in human-beings to find similarities with your new neighbours. From personal observation of India that is the reason why India has flourished and become a multicultural state. The problems come, when these similarities are not so common and the only way to achieve this is to either adapt & evolve or accept these differences and try to get on. But sometimes the only solution is to change your current outlook accept the majority. This was never the case in historical India (not India as a country but as a land mass), many cultures were accepted as part of the big picture but the problems seem to have occurred in mid 20^th century, where religious identity became the common trait. Well, it made things simple, you followed the same religion as the masses and automatically you are accepted by the masses.

Why is Christian conversion on the rise? They are not part of the masses; the cultural similarities are contradictory from the locals they are converting. So, why are these people converting? Maybe that is the answer, the differences, something new. Christian church is accepting the people for who they are, no caste, everyone is treated as equal.

Where Hinduism, caste system plays a crucial role in the Indian society and the low caste will always be treated like an animal, change Christianity brings, the low cast locals are looking for. For once, the low caste can break out of this vicious culture of caste and stop discrimination against them.

Probably, many are thinking on this forum, why not Sikh dharm, we dont believe in the caste system, we treat everyone as equals.

Do Sikhs really practise what they preach? We are seeing a common occurrence of many low caste Sikhs breaking away from all Sikh affiliation and creating their own Temples under the banner of Baghat Ravi Das and other Saints. This is on the increase in India and the west.

Many on this forum have stated, we need to push the knowledge of Sikh Dharm to these people and we need to fund these activities but, will it have any outcome? Personally, I dont think so, its not the lack of knowledge these people are deprived off, its the feeling of acceptance and being treated as equals. Even now, the Sikh faith is littered with religious leaders who are from Jaat caste and they still continue to push this during the elections. May not be intentionally but its the way the Indian society have been raised by the previous generations, the caste system is the core off all Indian person. Sikh faith may not believe in the caste system but do majority of Sikh people believe in it?

The answer is YES.

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Great points to which I agree with you, the Nirmal panth of Akal Purakh waheguru via guru nanak dev ji through his 10 other forms has been hijacked by caste. Hence why people feel the need to convert. If only they put their trust and faith in sikhi and pushed for change and solidarity.

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This is true. However, one can't help question the mental capability of one that enjoys being a slave. Enjoys being ridiculed. Enjoys being a second class citizen. Enjoys being under the rule of a power who officialy even denies that he and his faith even exist. Enjoys being the only major religion on god's earth without a nation of their own. Enjoys being massacred. Enjoys the fact that his people are routinely hung to death whilst the killers of Sikhs are given promotion and rewards. Enjoys living under a power that only became his lord and master because of false promises, deceipt and lies told by Nehru at the All India Congress at Calcutta in 1946.

Seriously, you have to question the lack of will, hope and backbone of people that enjoy being trampled upon in this way.

Of course I have heard of sado masochism and how those kind of perverts take pleasure in humiliation. Not saying you fall under that category but it's certainly odd.

WJKK WJKF,

Dear brother,

All the above atrocities you have stated above targeted at sikhs and sikhi are true and a 100% valid, however their are many issues which us so called sikhs do to one another within the Nirmal panth of sikhi which cannot be tolerated, I feel many have not understood the basic, fundamental principles of sikhi and if Khalistan was ever issued, unfortunately I feel it would be based on money, power and caste.

The will, hope and backbone of such sikhs who are true gursikh should be based on the strength in regards to one another and their unshakeable faith for sikhi. We are the only religion in the world without a nation as you rightly stated, but I feel the khalsa and sikhi has no geographical bounds and limitation, as we are the army of the world under gods rule, the only time Khalistan would be successful is when they realise what khalsa means. Wherever sikhs have settled around the world, caste is prevelant alongside other issues, why would it then not be if Khalistan was created?

For me, "Raj karega khalsa" is based within people's hearts, minds and souls.

Hope I have elaborated enough why my opinion is as such and it obviously is only my humble opinion.

WJKK WJKF

Unless he has changed his mind from several years ago Roop Singh questions the need for Khalistan. Its on Youtube, Roop I was happy when you got the 250k, but I'm very surprised for a guy who has been amritdhari for 30 years, questions the need for a Sikh state.

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Dear Brother,

I am not in favour for Khalistan either. I personally don't think it makes you any less a sikh. It is just an opinion. What makes you a sikh is the day to day life you live, trying to base all your decisions from gurmat.

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I think this phrase derives from the fact that a gursikh who has been gifted a Kirpaan and Shastar when initiated into the khalsa panth must never draw his weapon in a situation what does not require it to be drawn, as the only situation when the Kirpaan should be drawn is when all other paths for resolve have been explored to no avail in protection of someone else, injustice or self protection.

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Being meat free is not the end all and be all for a sikh, Bhakti and shakti are as important as each other and are the basis for a gursikh.

Sister when you sharpen your Bhagti with Naam, remember to sharpen your shakti via your Kirpaan and shastar and practice your weaponry.

lol....you can see now...most of guys favoring caste names...except that "sikhseeker"...

but at last stupidity of sikhs redefined...yes, we form a world of hypocrite sikhs.............

what we have been ordered ..we can't follow...but what has not been ordered ...we are ready to follow...(eagerly)

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....agreed....100%

our surnames

help us identify the ancestral roots

they help us snot marrying with our long last relatives

other then that there is no use of surnames.

yes we should keep surnames but not to make caste differences

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Surnames may help for sikhs not to intermarriage, however in my opinion after the hukam of Shiri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, it should be used as knowledge and not a surname. Singh and Kaur should only be used. Unfortunately the main reason for surnames is simply to display you belong to a particular caste and nothing more.

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Though brother Sikhseeker has given a very good reply above, we could say that while living in this world we have to deal with several situations in which we may find ourselves, whether willingly or not so...so it is better to draw a line at some point.

.......

Wahiguru Jee.

Very nice and accurate post. I understand the point you are making. In my opinion and what I understand, (maybe I'm wrong) sikhi is made of two components, Bhagti and shakti- for a khalsa, both components need understanding and growth. Many sikhs today have done much to grow and increase their Bhagti, but many only wear the kirpaan as a symbol.

*deleted*

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Mod Note: Refrain from going too deep in whether meat is right or wrong.

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If only moderators would step in when people justify caste also, would be much more commendable.

Is there any first hand evidence linking suleman baba ishar singh.. I.e. mention by baba ji in katha?

What makes me doubt the authenticity is 'sulemans' urdu and accent.. did they speak modern day urdu in iran????? If he moved from iran surely urdu was his second language..

Sounds like something non of us need to give any attention too...

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I have never heard the cassette but I don't think we can apply the laws of the living to another realm or level of existence of the soul, like the language issue.

Attention has to be given to this subject as many people go to dera and babeh due to no help from established gurdwareh on the topic of spirituality, then when we offer them no help or advice we shun them for going down another route and question why dera and babeh exist.

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are you serious? I'm just very curious about it...

WJKK WJKF,

I have heard "Sant" Baba Ranjit Singh mention this story and the cassette in a katha about another spiritual case which about with sant maskeen ji. That katha is on youtube and I think if you do a search within sikhsangat, the link is in one of the posts.

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About last year I was talking to a Christian preacher and his wife. They were both trying to impress me with Christianity. Then when the preacher asked me about my beliefs and I told them about reincarnation, they were both very amazed and left speechless, especially his wife. When he saw his wife being impressed with the concept of reincarnation I could tell the preacher was beginning to feel uncomfortable since this one believe invalidates their religion. And it's the Christians and Muslims who feel uncomfortable with reincarnation, not the Jews some of whom are open minded to this.

WJKK WJKF,

I think the fact that as sikhs we do not preach to convert is a beautiful thing. When I tell some one from another faith about sikhi, I first start with that as it kinda settles them and releases their security barrier which opens their minds a tad. The preacher probably realised his wife had reacted to the parchar you did, hence his reaction. It's amazing how guru nanaks parchar still can wake a sleeping soul. Keep it up brother!

Interesting, what exactly have they been able to hide before?

WJKK WJKF,

During the renaissance the Roman Catholic Church had great philosophers like the Italian Giordano Bruno burned at the stake for his scientific view and findings on the Copernican system of astronomy which placed the sun, not the Earth, at the centre of the solar system. They even tied his tongue so that he could not adress people before his death. Also Galileo under the threat of torture was told to change his support by the church order, which he did as he had become old. This is how the church treated great minds during the renaissance as it was a different view to that of theirs. Also it I just a drop of rain in the sea of wht is concealed. Giordano Bruno's literature is still on the forbidden list of literature within the library of the Vatican!

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Khalsa ji, no need to thank me.

Again stay strong!

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