sikhiseeker

UK sikh council should do this dirty work to put force on the management to resign and take back permit seeking application.

WJKK WJKF

Yea I agree. The sangat should rally around nationally and raise the issue with the council. No way should this be permitted to go ahead.

WJKK WJKF,

Unfortunately, many people have hijacked sikhi under the banner of their various castes. If the sikhs what understand equality stand strong and say no to caste in any situation and in any acceptance of caste, slowly we maybe able to claim back our Nirmal panth from the caste harbouring so called sikhs.

Keep on searching for the rishta, waheguru will heed the call of his true gursikhs. When an amrit dhari asks for your ancestral background, voice a thundering readdressing to the person who drank the holy nectar and has insulted the guru by their question, as khalsa ji you are the guru panth and have the very right to grab firmly back your beloved sikhi.

Stay strong khalsa ji, don't loose heart!

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF

Unbelievable right! Maybe the best way to deal with this issue is to contact the Akal takhat directly in the form of a letter or maybe the Uk Sikh Council?

WJKK WJKF

You know you say you are busy with family and kids and yet you manage to have time to post such a long message, I am surprised! Anyways, I am lost and find your post going haywire from one point to another. You want people to post in English, fair enough, so be it. I'll make sure you're responded to in English. You want to create new topics (and get them locked as well), go right ahead. Just wanted to let you know that there are more than several members on here who have raised a concern to us about you repeatedly starting threads that are controversial in nature.

You didn't read them properly then. They are nonsense as well.

WJKK WJKF,

Dear Mehtab Singh,

Sorry for my staggered post. Each paragraph is a reply to the response in order of your replies paragraphs. Again sorry.

Firstly, thankyou for replying in English, I hope you understand my point of view.

Secondly, why would you be surprised at the length of my post and me saying I lead a busy life and will reply to you when I get a chance? Obviously you are implying that I am lying? Lol why dear brother would I need to lie on such a trivial thing? I have replied to you when I got a chance, literally! What does the length of my post or my personal schedule have to do with this in anyway?

Thirdly, the fact that you have received more than several complaints from the sangat contributing to this forum about my topics being controversial demonstrates the insecurity of those such members that they through debate cannot challenge or converse about the topic in question. Rather complain about the topics controversy as it does not go with the grain of mainstream sikhi, albeit wrong or right. The whole of this correspondence to one another had stemmed from me disagreeing with your comment on the "bhappe" issue. As I see it, like you said subjectively, caste is against the principles if sikhi and if mainstream sikhi harbours this, it should be highlighted and corrected, not followed as it is not sikhi! I'm sure some wise sikhs as you stated will correct me if I'm wrong.

The only reason why my topics are locked and sometimes totally wiped, is really because again, the opinion is in difference with "mainstream" sikhi. Again my topic in question in regards to animal products being used by sikhs was locked and wiped? Why, does it highlight a discrepancy Mehtab Singh? Hence why it should be permitted to be discussed.

WJKK WJKF

Is the Indian Cricket star batsmen Virat Kohli Sikh? Ive heard alot of Hindus trying to make out that Virat is a Hindu.

But from his last name and the fact he wears a Kara seems like he is infact Sikh and not Hindu.

WJKK WJKF

Dear brother,

Sorry for hijacking your post and taking it to a totally different direction. This happened also on your thread about the history of the moguls lolz.

Sorry brother!

WJKK WJKF

Thankfully karmas are not like a contagious disease, like for example someone in our family is having cold or a flu, so there are chances to catch one ....

Karmas are very strange sometimes for us humans to understand, but they are always individual, though they maybe collective at some point.

Anything we may do in this creation, is a bondage, is karma. If we do good karmas we shall have rewards, if we do bad karmas, we shall suffer pain and misery, but in no case shall we be free from the cycle of births and deaths.

So we may ask ourselves, is there anything that could be done, which not only does not create new karma but also burns away the previous stock.

Well according to our Guru Sahibans, there is a remedy for it. They say: Sarab rog ka oukhad Nam.

Means Nam simran is the remedy for all our illnesses or karmas.

Why?

Because it is the only power beyond the spheres of Maya and Kal.

As Wahiguru is karmaless, so by attaching ourselves to His Nam, we too become inmaculate, become karmaless.

This is the mahanta of Wahiguru and His Nam.

WJKK WJKF

Really inspiring post, thankyou'

WJKK WJKF

today kara is worn for fashion purpose ...not only sikh but non sikh also wear it...not because of they have faith in Sikh Gurus...Just because of Fashion and show off...

and being born in just sikh family does not make someone sikh unless he/she follows Gurus and their teachings...Wondering what thing made you to post this article...its Ridiculous :lol2:

WJKK WJKF

Totally agree with your point. A pag and a Kara instantly make some one think their sikh. It's like how in the uk, many of my English friends do not believe in 1 line of the bible, yet as they celebrate Christmas, getting drunk, eating till they drop and other frolicking around without going to Christmas mass, or following any other Christian tennet, their Christian lol. Mirrored by our own community.

WJKK WJKF

Let me put it down to you, plain and blunt in your adopted bolee, Angrejji and not give you a chance to complain later on.

But they all make serious efforts to learn and understand Gurmukhi which includes Punjabi and several other languages so that they can grasp the real meaning of the Shabad. This is just an excuse that all Sikhs don't speak/understand Punjabi. If you've read the various English translations of Gurbani, you'd know that on many instances English doesn't do 100% justice to the meaning of the Shabad. Oh but sorry, how could you differentiate, you yourself claim that not all Sikhs can speak Punjabi, so how could they tell the different between "sath" when it means seven and "sath" when it means truth, right????

Thats solely your viewpoint, and this is a subjective matter. What you hold as top priority may not be the top one for another Sikh.

How do you know how passionate someone is? And how do we know how passionate you are when you keep questioning everything without running a search on this forum? Every other topic you start has been discussed on here or on other Sikh forums atleast 100s of times. Perhaps you didn't see the response you like? Which is why you start topics that have been brainstormed tons of times already.

Hello?!?!?! You are NOT Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaj!! When are we Sikhs gonna quit such retarded examples where we knowingly or unknowingly compare ourselves to Guru Sahib?

Dude, looks like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which is why you couldn't even take a minor joke which was out of fun. Here is what I'd suggest, request and encourage you to do. Each time your mind has a question, PLEASE run a search on this forum, you may get your answer. If not, please post in that same thread so we can continue wherever we left off from. If that topic is locked, you know that the topic CAN AND WILL turn into a controversial one so please spare us the hassle to lock another thread and get blamed for not allowing the so-called "freedom" to discuss (more like diss and cuss). I am not trying to evade your questions or discourage you from posting your questions on here, I am only urging you to help us out by continuing the "left-off" discussions.

pata nai tuhade gall palle pei vi honi ja mai apna adha ghenta fer barbaad karta

WJKK WJKF,

Thankyou for writing in English, also you have confused a complaint with a suggestion. I feel that you have missed my point in regards to the benefit in writing posts in English in correspondence to one another so that other non panjabi speaking sikhs can benefit from the posts also not every person born from panjabi descent has a 100% grasp of the language.

I have not stated that when learning and quoting gurbani it should be written in English!? In terms of gurbani a written quote in gurmukhi and an English and romanised translation is fine. We all know that the full knowledge of gurbani is better understood in Gurmukhi. However in normal correspondence, I have only suggested that it be written in English so the topic and posts can be followed and understood by all sikhs of different linguistic skill levels. I do not see the issue here.

Also, as you stated my view point that caste is the most detrimental issue concerning sikhi is my opinion, however I do not need to be told that I put "more strength into this topic than learning/speaking/understanding/writing panjabi as it is patronising and as you said, subjective.

My response to being passionate was directed at my passion for my sikhi, not anyone else's so the strength I put into my sikhi will always be 100%, never 1% less. The topics I start on this platform are for the sangat to debate at present. Events take place what change opinion, opinion is ever changing so why is a topic in 2008 relevant to me in 2014. I want to debate and understand people and learn from other peoples opinions, younger and older. Also if I started a topic which did not have no posts in reply I would understand your point. If a problem which was around in 2002 is still present in 2014, shall we just read the 2002 posts or speak on the matter at present? It's not the case that I have not seen the response I like, however it's a case that you do not agree with my response and allow it to be debated.

I have never regarded myself as guru nanak ji? Quite frankly I do not understand how you came to the conclusion that I have? My point was guru nanak dev ji on his travels would of spoke in the language of the country, not panjabi. Please correct me if in wrong.

Thankyou for your suggestions, as you know a number of my topics have been locked. This maybe because they seem or are controversial however I believe they should be discussed as then through debate, other opinions can be understood and taken upon from both schools of thought. This should be done within a adult manner and with respect as we are all sikhs. I am not here for arguments, cussing or abusing people. This is evident from my posts. I am not here for the sake of arguing as you have stated, however if I read something to which I disagree with, I have the right to challenge that opinion and question it through debate via this forum, as does someone else have the same right to obviously disagree with me in an mature manner not like children within a playground. Again as I suggested to you when a number of my posts were not just locked, but totally wiped like the saki of guru gobind Singh and madho das, they should be permitted to be debated, basically can we only debate within the lines of sikhsangat.coms version of sikhi? What they say in regards to sikhi goes in essence? I have not been able to watch one minute of the videos you posted on the above topic or respond to you as it has totally been wiped.....again. That must be the "so-called" freedom you mentioned right?

Also this whole post which you quoted was actually for the attention of my brother SINGH4PEACE?

Did you basically disagree with my opinion on the posts in regards to "bhappe" as that was what I had originally stated? To which I received posts in reply in panjabi which I asked then to be sent in my adopted "boli, angrejji" (ENGLISH) so everyone can benefit from the posts!

WJKK WJKF

sikhiseeker, bhaji tuhanu thodi hi kehhchal karni chahidi punjabi sikhan teh. Attay meh eh vi soch rakhda ki punjabi bolni/likhni/sunani/parne eeh jaat paat vallay issuean taun jaeda important haegi. meh tuhaday viccharran nal poora sehmat haegaan but lagda tusi kuj jaeda apni energy ik passay laga rahay ho.. chalo koe nah, saab raab deh bannday apnay kaman karajaan teh lagay neh..

Not every sikh is panjabi speaking or panjabi born. Their are many sikhs born around the world. Also punjabi bolni/likhni/sunani/parne in my view is not as important as the jaat paat issue, this is the sole issue which holds sikhi back. I am still awaiting your response to the topic on bhangra artsits who promote caste, maybe they like you think caste is not such an important issue commanding " jaeda" importance as you stated. Also I find it extremely gobsmacking how a fellow sikh is trying to ridicule another fellow sikh on thier passion for sikhi and the issues affecting sikhi.

Learning the sikh principles is fundematal to becoming a sikh first. Panjabi is a language. Sikhi is a way of life. Do you think guru nanak spoke panjabi in Baghdad or China and told them to learn panjabi before the principles and tenets of sikhi?

So please again as I stated refrain from patronising me as we are all sikhs here. The reason why I ask for replies to be written in English is so that all non panjabi speaking or reading people can benefit from reading and engaging in posts made.

WJKK WJKF

tu hukam kar veere kal svair tak thhaaaahh bol jaani ehdi te

nah jee nah asi te maan naal kaheeda ki asi bhand hunne aa

WJKK WJKF

I am not quite sure what you have written. Please correspond back in English.

Thankyou

WJKK WJKF

How the word 'Bhapa' came to be used for Sikh refugees

There are many dialects of Punjabi ( The Punjabi University lists 12 dialects) spoken in different regions of Punjab (both in Pakistani and Indian Punjab) and parts of what are now in Hmachal Pradesh and Haryana. . Word Bhapa is used in some parts of Pakistani Punjab and the use was more common among the Hindus and Sikhs especially in Pothohar region (Pothohar region is around Rawalpindi Islamabad of Pakistan). It means brother or respected person older than yourself. The word was sometimes also used for father. Most of Sikhs ( Brothers) native to areas in Northern and North Western part of Pakistani Punjab are from Khatri background. During the Partition when they came to eastern part of Punjab as refugees, the people here stared to call them Bhape- ( to both -the Hindus and Sikh refugees not just the Sikh refugees). With time the word started to be used in a different sense. It is not an original name of khatri Sikhs - nor it is nick name of Khatri caste ( Gurus were not Bhape). This word Bhape /Bhapa became associated with the refugees (both Hindus and Sikh) after the Partition (1947).

Punjabis seem to have the habit of changing the sense of word for brother. Here are a few examples.

• Word Bai (bai ji as Pamma Bai) is the word used for elder brother in Malwa region. A very respectable word. However if a young man goes the Doaba or Majha region and some one calls him Bai, he is liable to take offence because in these regions the word Bai takes the sense of a tough young man from Malwa a bad brother (equivalent to word Dada as used in Bollywood films)
• Word 'Bhau' is a very respectable word for elder brothers in Majha. But if someone from Majha goes to Doaba , Malwa or other regions , and someone calls him Bhau, he is not going to like it. Again in other regions it is used as slang for dangerous tough guy from Majha.

3. In Hindi speaking area of Northern India (Such as U.P and Bihar) the word commonly used for brother in respect or for a kind person is Bhiyya.. In Punjab, the word is synonymous with the migrants from those areas

WJKK WJKF,

Dear Mahaan Singh,

All of the above is fine for the history of how, where and in what context the term"bhappe" has been used however at present, it is used as a affiliation with caste for the majority of panjabi's. Just like how jatt is termed for a person in the occupation of farming, it is now affiliated with caste.

Wr should not take pride in caste affiliation.

WJKK WJKF

Being Amritdhari in appearance doesn't make one Amritdhari on the inside

WJKK WJKF,

Yep definately, I also think when amrit dhari and one does beadbi of the amrit, it is at a much more heavy penalty than someone who is not, as the amrit dhari chose to abide by a rehat which does not belong to them and was gifted by the guru.

WJKK WJKF

I am not using it in any insulting way, just stating a fact, the way they are referred in mainstream Sikh community.

WJKK WJKF

The caste affiliation terms like "bhappe", "jat" or "chamar" should have no place within sikhi albeit mainstream sikhi. If mainstream sikhi uses these terms and it is generally accepted, I would differ with mainstream sikhi, as the people who deem it to be right are actually wrong.

WJKK WJKF

So veerji by this logic all gurus were Bhappes - as far as i know bhapa is a very derogatory, mocking term. So on a sikh site we should avoid these kinds of words - much the same way N word is considered uncouth in west.

WJKK WJKF

I agree with your point totally, when oh when are the caste affiliations gona go right?

WJKK WJKF

which nihang guy? video link please

WJKK, WJKF

I think his name is Niddar Singh from the West Midlands in the uk. He is quite handy when it comes to Shastar vidya but had a few opinions which didn't go with majority so he had to go and do maffie at akal takhat ( I think)

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF

I'm no sure what K. S Makhans antics are and what his goal is but I have no issues with dharmic geet sung about bhagat ravidas within the sikh context, however when one associates bhagat ravidas with the term guru of sat guru it becomes out of the sikh context obviously, again if this is being associated with sikhi, it's needs to be condemned. That nihang guy was reprimanded for his views, why not K.S Makhan?

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF,

Many sikhs have an outright no to the consumption of meat in regards to a sikhs diet as does sikhsangat.com aswell. This topic maybe locked due to that reason. However, the notion of being meat and egg free is not all what makes up a sikh and being vegetarian alone will not gain you mukhti. There are many contributing factors which will gain you mukhti, if one decides to take amrit, are you willing to battle the fires of kaam, krodh, mo, lobh and hankar until the day you die? Also any affiliation with your caste? Are you ready to train to use your guru given kirpan?

You have questioned whether by feeding met to your pets with somehow invalidate your amrit sanchar, yet when you sit and sing the praises of waheguru in a gurdwara, as I have stated in many posts, you will pluck the stings of an musical instrument made from an animal product also whilst beating the skin of a dead goat on a tabla! If your view is as the above stated, have you considered your use io such things which use animal by products like leather?

Waheguru is within everything, the sikhs goal is not to make a meat and egg free society, however to serve justice, live honestly and gain mukhti by service and equality of all,

WJKK WJKF

its no enough to ask Sikhi not be associated with it. Caste discrimination should be tackled on all levels.

What a retarded thing to be proud of if you think about it.. proud that your great grandfather was a carpenter or farmer?

Not exactly the engineer/doctor/lawyer that todays castist parents want? why arent they encouraging their children to buy some land and be a farmer...if thats not what they want..then why hold onto the caste of it! haha

WJKK WJKF,

Again, your totally right, caste should be abolished on all levels unfortunately caste is still written on the hearts on minds of many a sikh in high positions of responsibility. Even sikhs on here show their condemnation on the meat issue, yet with caste they kinda find some form of justification,

WJKK WJKF

Wow unbelievable, I actually went on to youtube to watch this and there's a woman who was ANNA FRANK!!!! Amazing!

WJKK WJKF

Dear Singh135,

These sort of songs just fuel the fire really, like ducussed within the posts it fills the demand for the people who buy into caste supremacy wars. But whenever they associate sikhi within these songs, we should all show our condemnation.

WJKK WJKF

@SINGH4PEACE....awaiting your response to my posts to you dear brother.

WJKK WJKF

Ravidassia singhs "dalits" make up the majority of Singhs FACT but dont get treated like 1 equal khattri jatt sikh yes you guys can say they differ this and that, but they have contributed alot to sikhism, from bhagats to icons that will forever live on 1 example BEANT SINGH the guy who got revenge for all SIKHS but no one really speaks about him because of him coming from a Chamar background yes the ravidassia times twitter feed is full of nonsense that doesnt mean all ravidassis are like that? its like saying General brar and his antics and him being a proud jatt sikh, all jatt sikhs are like him? are they?(fingers crossed no) i know people reading this are firing up inside but lets face it amritdhari or not how many people do help the oppressed castes and accept them and help them and now jatt farmers are struggling its got everyones mouths moving FACE IT we messed up in expressing equality between all castes and even now you keyboard babbar sheres are on about watch out for them blah blah either way who is watching when muslims are grooming (something much more important) if the sikhs accepted the dalit castes SIKHS would have punjab with a lock and key instead you see fellow singh brothers demanding justice through starving themselves which still dont work Sorry if i offended anyone im just extremely upset how us guys as a sikh nation are just on the decline with no unity and worrying about social media feeds rather than then reality of what sikhs are going through on a day to day basis worldwide we need to make our people come back to sikhi and not become christians etc etc.

WJKK WJKF

You have stated many truths, sikhi is indeed fragmented into caste supremacy divisions, the Ravidassia religion is a direct result of this and now many people within sikhi are pointing their fingers at other organisations which may have infiltrated the Ravidassia community rather than lookin internally at what we as so calle sikhs have done and what we have taken guru nanaks Nirmal panth. I hate the titles chamar sikh, jatt sikh ramgarhia sikh etc, the sooner we can drop these titles the sooner we will just simply be sikh.

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF

Dear brother, I am a 17 year old from US. I will speak from the bottom of my heart about the state of Sikhi youth in America. Currently American Sikhs especially the youth are lacking in following our Gurus teachings and even falling into the pit full of maya. Most Sikh girls and boys in their teenage years have been destroyed by western culture including drugs, alcohol, cutting hair, and vulgar music. Not only that but they don't even want to learn about Sikhi and their attendance for gurdwara shows that. Sikh camps are still going on, but lack of interest in Gurbani teachings and lack of knowledge of our Shaheedis is incredibly sad. My Sikh brothers in America are following all these famous people lifestyle making them shave and dress like them its sad. The whole panth is declining but there are some bright Sikhs in America that are keeping faith intact. Parents aren't taking the time to teach their kids when they are much busy themselves leaving their kid to be confused when he/she becomes a teenager. That is a root of one of many of the problems of our youth today.

WJKK WJKF,

What a shame it is to hear the state of sikhi in America. In the uk there has been an influx of people, generally younger who are reconnection to their sikhi. God willing the same will happen in America. It just takes a few gursikhs who live sikhi within every minute of their life to start this ball rolling. Here in the UK we have many young gursikhs who a giving a brilliant example to the younger generation. You may have already seen his videos on youtube, bhai Jugraj Singh from basics of sikhi, if you haven't share it with your friends and family and hopefully guru nanaks parchar will once again awake sleeping souls.

Is there also this caste supremacy ideology over sikhi in the states?

WJKK WJKF

I think it is time not rely on others to do something. If some are praising them then let them praise. If you see fault or disease like castiesm then put your energy in finding solution rather than passing down fault next person you see.

WJKK, WJKF

Dear brother,

This is not simply kicking the the can to some one else, this is about change and change can only happen within debate and opinions. As recognised by various sikhs who have contributed to this post, the problem lies with the demand and the person singing the song to fulfill that demand for monetary or fame purposes. The whole panjabi scene music industry is fine if it is left to do that. But the issue is when they start to associate it with sikhi. Jazzy B, Sukshinder Shinda, Malkit Singh and Diljit Dosanj are just a few of these contradictory contributors to the tainting of sikhi. This is where, WE as sikhs should be concerned and show our condemnation about the image portrayal of sikhs and the caste supremacy issues which are being associated with our dharam. It is not simply blaming the next person you see, rather identifying a problem, finding who are contributing to the problem and trying to raise awareness. This then involves the music producers, the singers and also the listeners. One person cannot do this alone, their has to be a United sikh stance to say "well no, we do not want our dharam to be associated with your gaandh basically!" However, the united stance is not there as many people still harbour caste supremacy issues, amrit dhari or not!

WJKK WJKF

One SIkh singer I have had more respect for is K.S. Makhan who was involved in drugs like 2-3 years ago or so but became Amritdhari. I found his songs to be very inspirational for Sikh youth in Punjab as most of his songs are Sikhi related in terms of having pride of wearing dastaar and etc. But he came out with a recently new song "gurpurab gura da" singing about bhagat ravidas ji with his followers in the vid.... I found it a bit odd.

In my opinion, there is a lot to change in the Punjabi music industry. Of course first you have to clean up all the singers. I feel today's Punjab youth are looking up to Bollywood/ Punjab singers and actors instead of our great leaders of the Khalsa Panth who lived a unique life and give us much pride today. When these Punjabi teenagers look at how they dress up or how they shave they want to look exactly like them. It is absurd. They are falling into western culture style which in my opinion does not go with Sikhi lifestyle very well since we have many problems in America keeping Sikhi intact.

WJKK, WJKF

Dear brother,

Are you from America and if so what is the state of sikhi at present especially within the youth?

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF

Dear brother,

I am waiting for your view and post on what has been debated within this topic by various sikh and myself. It would be really interesting to hear you opinion.

WJKK WJKF

A complaint should be made to Sikh Channel. Also has anyone ever heard a Bhangra song that states another caste other than jatt?

WJKK, WJKF

The majority are jatt based, I understand old traditional panjabi folk songs are based on such stories like mirza jatt and the other 8 traditional love stories, I have no problem with these as it does not associate itself with sikhi, my problem is with today's modern bhangra, lyrics what are really based on nothing with no beauty, simply just silly songs sung by silly people wearing a khanda made outa gold. The majority being jatt tracks as you rightly said, however like other sikh have stated it fullfills the demand. This is were the problem is with the whole caste supremacy ideology all being promoted within sikhi, my problem lies with any caste being tagged to sikhi, not just the jatt and any vulgar portrayal being associated to guru nanaks Nirmal panth.

I am soooooo surprised at the support for such contradiction, it brings me down to the point that many "sikhs" really only say its ok because they must belong to the caste in regards to the bhangra song and if amrit chak, really they still harbour caste as I see no justification for this, well anything which taints sikhi.

WJKK WJKF