sikhiseeker

There are plenty of fake artists who claim to be dharmic when it suits them. Malkit Singh recently released some dharmic tunes.

The same Malkit Singh who recently when he attended Downing Street to celebrate Vaisakhi failed to raise the Devinder Pal Bhullar case with David Cameron.. Then after agreeing to meet the sangat protesting outside ran away down the street when the sewadars back was turned.

Two faced people when it actually matters they don't care about dharam or Sikhi

WJKK WJKF

AGREED!

Manak nailed all major points in the above interview. Music industry must watch his interview.

I think main problem in punjabi music industry is having so much gandh in almost every music videos. As manak said its fault of people and tv channels for diluting real punjabi music culture.

WJKK, WJKF

Dear brother,

Manak sahib is right in the context of the music industry, but my point is from the dharmic viewpoint, samaaj and virsa cannot mix with sikh gurmat as it becomes Mann matt.

Also, you did not reply to the post I made to you?

WJKK WJKF

I think they sing what sells to make a living... you had Miss Pooja and I think Lembher are not Jatt .... but sing songs bigging up Jatts because thats where the demand is and what sells... the lyrics regarding Caste, sharaab etc doesnt necessarily mean the singer endorses the lyrics... or even believes what they are singing... Miss Pooja is a known Ravidasia follower!!!

The blame does not belong with the singers but Punjabi community! Compare Diljit's dharmic album sales and his Jatt filled stuff... where does he earn a living?

I think we need to look at the Punjabi community that buys and demands these songs... if there was no demand there would be no supply. Kharku song from a sikh perspective is not good! but look how long it was number 1?

I fully understand the OP in stating that its kinda hypocritical but Diljit has done more for Sikhi in his songs and image with dastaar (albeit trimmed) then say Gurdass Mann or Malkit Singh IMO... He has full keshdhari singhs in his dharmic videos and most of the time he probably makes a loss on such releases. In addition it will be interesting to see his new film about 1984 and how he challenges the Indian Government... this is the first high profile punjabi singer that is making such a film. I understand how people view him as not a role model in Sikhi... but hes doing more than 95% of other singers,... and I dont think he considers himself to be any sort of Sikh based role model... I know he would feel uncomfortable should any associate him as being a role model for Sikhs...

However, I think we should support him more on his Sikhi based projects like his new film 1984 and albums... having met Diljit Singh I can confirm he is panthically aware and fully respects Sikhi... neither does he follow any deray baba or sing for them like most other high profile singers do...

When you met Diljit Dosanjh, how did you come to the conclusion that he is "panthically aware and fully respects sikhi"?. Did you watch jatt and julliette 1 & 2 and then listen to his song "Kharku" first before making your opinion? I find it completely ridiculous that people try and justify these caste endorsements done by these people and then say support them. I will never support a person who on one hand supports anti-gurmat and then on the other hand has the cheek to sing Dharmic geet! I will never let this person become a role model either. I do agree with you that the issue needs to be addressed within its demand. It's fine if a person believe in their caste, idolise themselves and wanna sing their castes praise and be apart of their caste. However I have a problem when they bring my gurus Nirmal panth into that! Any amrit dhari sikh who endorse this needs to ask themselves "why am I ok with is when it is causes segregation and bad issues within my religion"

Also how can you state that Diljit Dosanj has done more for sikhi albeit with a trimmed beard lol, why? The alcohol, women, caste and trimming of the beard becomes good for sikhi then if you simply have put a pagg on? So what your saying is adhere to Man Matt but with a pag on, encourage segregation, booze and girls within young people born into "sikh" families, then after you have done this the dharmic album will flop because people don't wanna listen to this as they want what you did first, but you have made a brilliant contribution to guru nanaks Nirmal panth!?

Also your right, the song "Kharku" is not "ok" from the sikh viewpoint, hence why I condemn these singers actions as I try to have a sikhi viewpoint on all things within my life, for me personally everything starts and finishes with my sikh viewpoint. My view point is man mat and it will always win if I give it the opportunity to voice it's opinion.

Again, caste and the image portrayed by people like Lembher hussanpuri, miss poojo and Diljit Dosanj should be condemned if we say we are religiously sikh, no amrit dhari should support such actions.

WJKK WJKF

Majority of the youth are monay and mostly all are hooked with singers like the above you mentioned. I don't think these singers are bad as they always step up to lend hand for any sikh cause like of bhai gurbax Singh khalsa. Song writing is one unique talent but I don't think we have any famous one who is close to sikhi. If we see problem then we should become a part of solution. Write songs that promotes the true message of sikhi. Also do keep in mind that in 80's singer were against sikh movement and today they are with sangat.

To better understand the situation one has to really go into punjabi culture/lifestyle rather than just label wrong/right.

Please dear brother take a look at these lyrics sung by a Mr. Diljit Dosanj in his song Kharku!

Kive tod dau koi tera mera pyar ni

Mure jatt kharku khdaaaaa

How can someone separate us? Jatt Kharku is standing right in front to protect us.

Haath vich fadi talwar ni

Gut vich soniye Karaa

I have a sword in my hand and karaa(steel bangle) on my fist.

These aren't based on the traditional stories of panjabi culture, rather a caste based reference associated with sikhi where sikhi denounces caste.

Also brother, I read this post you made on a topic about meat " Meat: SikhSangat.com holds an Anti-Meat stand. We feel that eating meat is immoral, unlawful and simply wrong according to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib jee." It would be great if this view was taken by sikhs in general as in caste is immoral, unlawful and simply wrong according to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahibi ji. Rather than excepting that caste associated with sikhi within bhangra alongside other defaming issues and telling one to try and understand panjabi culture, there should be an anti-stand against caste by sikhsangat.com and sikhs.

Sikhi is not a pick a mix religion, as it has been made at present.

WJKK WJKF

Majority of the youth are monay and mostly all are hooked with singers like the above you mentioned. I don't think these singers are bad as they always step up to lend hand for any sikh cause like of bhai gurbax Singh khalsa. Song writing is one unique talent but I don't think we have any famous one who is close to sikhi. If we see problem then we should become a part of solution. Write songs that promotes the true message of sikhi. Also do keep in mind that in 80's singer were against sikh movement and today they are with sangat.

To better understand the situation one has to really go into punjabi culture/lifestyle rather than just label wrong/right.

Simply showing support to people like bhai Gurbax Singh Khalsa Ji does not undo the caste segregation and bad image bhangra singers like the above mentioned do. The 80's were the 80's, we need to look at what the issues are present day and how that situation will play out in the future. Caste, Alcohol, the image of these singers and the general frolicking around with girls is fine, as long as you do not associate it with sikhi, which is the case now.

Panjabi culture is of no value to me, I don't personally care about heer ranjha or any other traditional panjabi love story which traditional bhangra is based on. My heroes and heroines are people like mata gujri ji and shaheed bhai jeevan Singh ji.

Also, not all of bhangra music is now based on the traditional panjabi love stories. Lyrical content is simply caste based.

Do you appreciate the film "jatt and Juliette"? I certainly don't and hope that rather than support these artists constant contradictions, we should as the SIKH sangat condemn any association with derogatory physical images associated with sikhs and kick out caste.

Panjabi Culture and Virsa is one thing, sikhi is another, the two can never mix.

The very reason why I condemn artist such as I have stated in the topic is the very point you mentioned. The youth, the wrong message is given at an early age. Basically, alcohol is great, sex is great and your caste is your identity and no one else's matches- WRONG!

How can a person who sings that their caste is the best wearing a Kara having camera shots of the sikh symbol of the khanda within the video also featuring again, girls and booze then on another channel be singing a Dharmic geet about our shaheed. Do you really not thing that their is no damage on the youths opinion when listening to their music?

What should be done is they should sing songs which celebrates all panjabi's and the healthy panjabi culture and Virsa what Panjab once saw, not the very tools used so that Panjab has become a alcoholic fueled, drug inflicted wreck. Then their positive stance will enable to call these singers as role models and their dharmic geet will be an inspiration for that same youth which they inspire, which then the dharmic geet will also inspire.

WJKK WJKF

Sangat channel is promoting caste on their matrimonial selection. Hypocracy is rife

WJKK, WJKF

yea that show is a joke. It's funny how people call it a "SIKH MATRIMONIAL SHOW". The worst thing is they have now got a amrit dhari sister reading the caste based references. What is she doing?

WJKK WJKF,

Once again, I heard a sikh brother who greatly inspires me say on The Sikh Youth Show on the Sikh Channel on Sunday night that Diljit Dosanj is doing a great job inspiring people wearing his pag???

Is it just me? Have I gone crazy? Just because someone chooses to wear a dastar while trimming their beird, promoting caste segregation and booze and frolicking around with girls all at the same time of wearing a Kara and claiming he's a sikh....how is this inspirational? Because he's doing it with a pagg on? Is that what dastar di izhat is these days?

To me inspirational is someone like Bhai Jugraj Singh ji from basics of sikhi or Bhai Satvinder Singh and Harvinder Singh Dehli wale or K.S Makhan when he was blesse with amrit and became khalsa or even Sardar Roop Singh who won the £250k on Deal or no deal.

These silly antics by people like Diljit Dosanj should be condemned not congratulated.

I wonder if we will get another dharmic geet track out after one of his caste based films next? Something not to look forward to anyway!

WJKK, WJKF

ravidassian sectarian extremists been caught out creating anti-sikh propaganda, anti-khalistan and pro--indian terrorism propaganda for a long time now. Its time they had some propaganda against their cult too. How do you know a ravidassian extremist is posing as a Sikh to divide and confuse our kaum? When they use the term "sikh taliban".

Ravidassia polled 11,000 only in UK 2011 census a laughable amount of adherents even the jedi's polled more than them showing that vast majority of chamars and "ravidassia" sikhs see themselves as Sikhs and not some new officially recognised as a religion in the UK created just recently out of thin air.

Therefore as a opposing religion to Sikhi as a religion that attacks and mocks Sikhs we have seen on twitter and facebook it is our duty as Sikhs to stand up to ravidassian extremism and fascism by dismantling the so called religion they created in 2009 and educate them and our community of the false beliefs they hold.

Let the games begin

Sikhi is a Nirmal panth. People have mocked sikhi and real sikhs who lived by sikh principals like our shaheed since the dharam was born with Shiri Guru Nanak Ji. If this new religion, Ravidassia are now slandering sikhi, it only shows insecurity. What we need to do is look within our dharam and see what the reasons are behind these factions being created by people in our religion such as caste and westernisation and make a change on an individual basis within our personal lives. Only by each and every principal believing sikh will this change take place by doing this, then maybe in our children's lifetime, or our grandchildrens lifetime will we establish the faith of our gurus how it was meant to be. It's like the whole climate change and the wastage of energy issue, if one person shuts of the light when it's not needed it isn't gonna have any effect on the overall wastage of energy however if everyone participated then it will make a massive change! We should adopt this to sikhi and strive for equality.

Rather than standing up and dismantling the extremism and fascism within the Ravidassia Religion and educating them on the false beliefs they hold, I feel we should first do this within ourselves and sikhi, as we harbour all of these issues too. How can we educate other faiths when we are so uneducated ourselves? Sikhi is being dismantled within sikhi, the emphasis should be on that. Not a religion made in 2009 as you rightly stated.

I hope you can see my point.

WJKK WJKF

Sikhiseeker you are correct that it is the lack of commitment to eradicate the filth of caste that has led to some of the problems that today exist, and also caused some of the problems that exist.

That said, what is the way forward? How do we check the momentum of hatred, and outside groups playing the SIkhs through internal divisions, as well as fighting the militant caste based groups that are fueling this hatred?

Rab rakha!

Dead brother,

Please read the post I made to cool water, as I don't know how to quote two posts at the same time lol.

WJKK WJKF

a groups of "high caste" punjabi hindus called "brahmin sena" has been infiltrating their ravidassia orgs and particular their social media using youtube vids, facebook profiles and pages to create hate for Sikhs so that ravidassian secterians and Sikhs fight each other.

This is old news but most sikhs been too busy wasting their lives way not defending their religion as usual until crap hits the fan then they wonder why didnt they wake up and get others to wake up too.

The ravidassian secterian extremists must be challenged not physically but ideologically their so called new religion. It needs to be dismantled clinically. It is easy to do because they do idol worship of statues of bhagat ravi das, they believe in castism by creating an exclusive caste orientated chamar religion, they will still be treated with contempt by most people chosing religious and caste separatism rather than staying in sikhism and being seen as equal sikh brothers and sisters. They dont have any wealth of heros or martyrs like Sikhs do, They dont have any clear concept of God or what their purpose of life is from these artificial created religion. There are so many holes in this ravidassian cult it wont take 10mins to chuck its 2009 created ideology in the bin.

WJKK WJKF,

Again, the sikh dharam is equal, but the people who claim to be sikh are far from it. Their is no unity in sikhi. At present it is caste based sikhs which in itself is a contradiction to the religion. These people have never been accepted due to caste issues and other castes claiming caste supremacy over sikhi. Hence why we still have terms like "chamar sikh", "mazabhi sikh" and "jatt sikh". All these terms should not exist once amrit is taken but they do. So I cannot see no brotherly/sisterly love between sikhs. They faced exclusion from so called sikhs and turned their back on sikhi, rather than the people claiming to be sikh. We should highlight the shortfalls within ourselves so we can talk and try to find a solution for the sustainability and progression of sikhi, rather than blame other people on infiltration of this community. The first people who pushed the domino for this domino effect to happen was the so called sikhs, due to their caste supremacy ideology damaging our Nirmal panth based on equality.

WJKK WJKF

WJKK, WJKF

alil concerned at some of the opinions of this sister, main one being about allowing to let amritadharis do what they will, like for e.g the girls trimming eyebrows and wearing make up. Once amrit is taken, the man or woman is living by the rehat set by the guru, living by gurmat, the point and emphasis being not their Man Matt. A female doing her eyebrows for e.g is man Matt, that person should not of made the commitment if they can not fully commit to the rehat. It's like one day amrit dhari men accepting amrit and still trimming thier beirds or even eyebrows in some cases lol. Would that be ok? Definately not!

Amrit is your choice, the choice of living to the rehat and not your Man Matt, defeating the 5 vices which are as hard for both men and women and the rehat being the same for both male and female as sikhi is genderless, ones interpretation should be within the guidelines of the rehat and gurmat, not western society, western culture and the western idea of beauty.

I support Harnaam Kaur's stance, she should not have to give up her chance of mukhti after her millions of janam to get to her human for due to the western ideology of beauty. However I feel she has took two steps forward and one step back, with the whole make up and dress sense issue as an amrit dhari is khalsa and a soldier of the guru. Not an fashion advertisement for topshop lol. Same for bit genders, dress beautifully, appropriately and practically within the rehat, as if your amrit dhari, you chose to live by it!

WJKK WJKF

Dear "luckysingh99"

We're lucky to have a sikh like you lucky Singh, totally agree with you. The fabrication of waheguru and the intertwining souls are very complicated.

WJKK WJKF

singh bj

we are talking about 2 different points here.

please please answer these questions.

where do you get your gurbani gian from?

why did you post the english translations of the shabads above?

Yea I agree, kinda off topic, we're not singin from the same hymn sheet.

There are many verses in Gurbani that talk about Kul (ancestry).

Positive example -

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

Saahib Bhaavai Saevak Saevaa Karai ||

साहिब भावै सेवकु सेवा करै ॥

When it pleases our Lord and Master, His servant serves Him.

2 ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੭੦ ਪੰ. ੧੩

Raag Basant Guru Amar Das Page:1170 Line: 13

ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਸਭਿ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਰੈ ॥੧॥

Jeevath Marai Sabh Kul Oudhharai ||1||

जीवतु मरै सभि कुल उधरै ॥१॥

He remains dead while yet alive, and redeems all his ancestors. ||1||

3 ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੭੦ ਪੰ. ੧੩

Raag Basant Guru Amar Das Page:1170 Line: 13

Negative example -

ਇਕਿ ਕੂੜਿ ਲਾਗੇ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ॥

Eik Koorr Laagae Koorrae Fal Paaeae ||

इकि कूड़ि लागे कूड़े फल पाए ॥

Some are stuck in falsehood, and false are the rewards they receive.

19 ਮਾਝ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧

Raag Maajh Guru Amar Das Page:124 Line: 1

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥

Dhoojai Bhaae Birathhaa Janam Gavaaeae ||

दूजै भाइ बिरथा जनमु गवाए ॥

In love with duality, they waste away their lives in vain.

20 ਮਾਝ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧

Raag Maajh Guru Amar Das Page:124 Line: 1

ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਕੁਲ ਡੋਬੇ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥

Aap Ddubae Sagalae Kul Ddobae Koorr Bol Bikh Khaavaniaa ||6||

आपि डुबे सगले कुल डोबे कूड़ु बोलि बिखु खावणिआ ॥६॥

They drown themselves, and drown their entire family; speaking lies, they eat poison. ||6||

21 ਮਾਝ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧

Raag Maajh Guru Amar Das Page:124 Line: 1

These examples show that one's karma can have positive as well as negative effect on his family & ancestry.

WJKK, WJKF

Dear brother, thanks for posting these shabad from our guru. However again, within the lines of the original topic, "do children take the karma of parents" the shabad you have provided are really not on that topic,

He remains dead while yet alive, and redeems all his ancestors. ||1||

This shabad is talking about someone who lives by gurmat, by redeeming his ancestors it does not mean a gurmukh carries their karma...basically all their kul da karma.

"They drown themselves, and drown their entire family; speaking lies, they eat poison. ||6||"

This shabad is talking about someone who lives their life by Man Matt and the affect their actions in life will inevitably influence their entire family. This is not due to karma, this is due to ones poor decisions and influences made to family while living, like drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, cheating, encouraging caste etc.....

All the other quotes I feel are not related to the topic in discussion.

For me and what I understand in my opinion is I can only be accountable for my actions. Why should I be accountable for my Biological father/mother or even the entire kul? We all take our janam due to our previous karmic action. This is our individual chance after millions of janam. If one achieves the state of brahm gian and receives ridhi/sidhi, I believe then one may have the ability to help ancestors but that is another topic in itself.

WJKK WJKF

Guru Piare Sikhiseeker

Unfortunately the people that these people are being blinded by are using their affiliation to jaat, or a particular jaat and correlating this as a link between Bhagat Jis bani and a nation that Bhagat Ji never espoused as a nation, nor ever existed. They have fermented the hatred of prejudicial treatment that they received by some sections in society due to their jaat into a hatred of Sikhi. And groups opposed to Sikhi are using this hatred to ulterior motives, such as the Nirankari speaker in the video link Rankirini has kindly uploaded.

In reality, wider Sikh society accepted that mistakes were made and that is why the establishment of Bhagat Ravidas Gurdwaras etc was not opposed, similar in manner to the establishment of Black Led Churches by Christians of African/Carribean descent in the UK due to the discrimination they faced in the UK when they first arrived.

The problem as dass has understood from observation over recent times, is that with the development of a separation from mainstream Sikhi, core parchaar was compromised at these Gurdwaras and some people with political motives and personal vendettas and even hatreds, with newly found identity and pseudo-confidence in numbers, set up Bhawans etc instead of Gurdwaras, they adopted a separate nishaan, a separate Jaikara and started referring to Bhagat ji as Guru ji.

Unfortunately, with the vacuum in parchaar, others exploited the separation, and slowly the identity mushroomed into anything that was Ravidasi and not just Sikhi. Hence Ambedkar days being staged at these Gurdwaras, even though Ambedkar ji himself was a Buddhist. Similarly, a large proportion of this now 'caste' based Ravidasia community slowly entered into a following of RadhaSwami as well as other deras, including deras such as Dera Ballan including a sizeable denomination following Christianity.

Most of the Punjab based deras have though maintained links with mainstream Sikhi and resolutely stated that their first and foremost link is to Sikhi, and their reverence is to Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have thus rejected the moves by dera Ballan to establish a pothi only containing Bhagat jis bani instead of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Gurdwaras and Bhawans.

There are unfortunately those within the Ravidassia community, as it has now labeled itself, who have no respect for Sikhi, aren't Sikhs and have no linkage to Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, other than the fact that Bhagat Ji's bani forms part of the Ang of Guru Maharaj.

They now want to separate these banis from Bhagat ji as a reference to all of humanity, and stranglehold them into a separate entity. Conversely we have another enemy within in the guise of the Missionaries who want to extract all Bhagat banis from Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. All these people, in my opinion, don't have any spiritual base, but are either former naxal influenced communists who for decades wanted to vent their hatred to Sikhi, and like trojan horses or virus, have remained loosely connected to Sikh diaspora as predatory leaches waiting to exploit their narrow agendas.

We shouldn't despair as it is all in Guru Jis bhaana. If any objective comparison was made of the way people of different castes are treated in India in Punjab and other states, the comparison would be eyeopening. It is only due to the blessing of Satguru Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji that the Khalsa were created, Sahib Sri Gobind Singh ji created Sardars from peasants, (incidentally all these so called jaats were actually peasants- its is unfortunate that the tradition of kes and dastar hasn't been maintained in all sections of our society), Banda Singh Bahadur confiscated land from the Mughal aristocrats and Hindu Rajas and distributed land to all Sikhs, who regardless of their former jaat overnight had become Sardaars. This model isn't found in any other state.

People of peasant castes in other states are still unable to have landholdings, let alone have their own Gurdwaras or deras or mandirs of any religious denomination. That is why in Orissa Dalits who convert to Christianity are brutally murdered, their women stripped in public and their children whipped.

Yes, agreed things aren't perfect in Punjab, but Sikhs haven't been able to exert Sikh philosophy anywhere in its true form, not even in Punjab, In Punjab Amritdhari Sikhs across the board are persecuted; nearly a quarter of a million Sikhs have been exterminated in the past 3 decades. We can't have our own free press and media. And Sikhs remain a minority in every part of India including Punjab. So the remaining remnants of this social cancer of caste haven't been able to be addressed in the way shape or form that many practicing Sikhs would expect; the past 2 decades have simply a time for survival.

Bhai Beant Singh ji and Bhai Kehar Singh who were both responsible for avenging the assault on Sri Harmandir Sahib were mazbi Sikhs. And they along with Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh, with Maharaj kirpa, are responsible for restoring the dastar of the Sikhs after Operation Bluestar. It is a fact that when we remember Bhai Kehar Singh and Bhai Beant Singh their jaat is never brought into the equation, just as when Bibi Bimal Kaur Khalsa were elected as an MP post 1986. Lets celebrate these heroes wholeheartedly, and the more and more Gurdwaras that celebrate Bhagat Ravidas Ji's janam din and the days of other Bhagats, the less influence these trojans will be able to exert and their cause will die a death.

More importantly, lets remind all our brothers and sisters that they are equally worthy to receive Guru Ji's blessing of Amrit and share in the Sardari that He has blessed all His children with. This will be the biggest slap in the face of the haters and will develop lasting bonds with Guru Maharaj instead of superficial labels of Sikh nationhood.

Rab rakha

When people from this caste chak amrit as many other castes did, they were and still are continuously reminded of their pre-caste by people who call themselves sikhs. We talk about inter-faith marriage, yet within the so called mainstream society we still do not encourage marriage within sikh communities due to the wide spread belief of caste, everyone sticking to their own basically. When our panth is Nirmal and the khalsa is pure and equal, people who claim themselves to be sikh have never let other people from other heritages be equal. That is why these people after so many yaers of injustice have split, wrongly I agree, as it is not the religion which is at fault, however the ones who deem themselves to be religious.

So after all these years of people calling them chamars, even when they are amrit dhari, they have turned ther back to sikhi, instead of the people who claim falsely they are sikh. Now we are stating that people who are against the progression of sikhi like nirankaris are relating it to their caste? We as the sikh community did this, before anyone else and we still are to other communities. When ones caste is used in a derogatory manner, that community of people will then try and claim that term back, like how Our African brothers and sisters call one another "nig**r" also how Pakistani people refer themselves as "p*ki". When a chamar Chaks amrit, they should of been refered to as khalsa, not chamar sikh. Even today, a khalsa who was from mazabhi decent is still termed as a mazabhi sikh?

So again, my point is within mainstream sikhi, were great at giving caste references to our own fold and having the same hierarchy in western countries what stil exists in India. So we should look at what we do as a kaum and how far we take our sikhi, also the defamation of our faith we do within sikhi ourselves and asses our understanding of the equal, casteless, colourless, genderless Nirmal panth of shiri guru nanak dev ji.

The reason behind the people of India excepting amrit was the equality it offered under waheguru, this also being the reason why many from the Hindu faith converted to various other religions like Christianity and Islam to break their aste affiliation of the inequality of Hinduism.

sagal dhuaar ko shaadd kai gehiyo thuhaaro dhuaar | baahi gehae kee laaj as gobindh dhaas thuhaar |864|

O Lord ! I have forsaken all other doors and have caught hold of only Thy door. O Lord ! Thou has caught hold of my arm; I, Govind, am Thy serf, kindly take (care of me and) protect my honour.864.

Unfortunately as the sikh kaum, we do not protect one another's honour, we now point fingers at others blaming them for the cracks we helped make.

WJKK WJKF

It is very important to know why these Sikhs left Sikhi. This will allow us to know how in the future Sikhs can better themselves and not let this happen again. No one is saying they should be forced to stay in Sikhi. Many times political figures stigmatize very small issues and fool the average person. I'm not saying this caused them to split, but it can be a possibility. Keeping a bond with them will foster better relations in the future and gain information on why they split. What you suggest of moving on is the wrong way about it. It will only cause a bigger divide and a further misunderstanding between the two communities.

WJKK WJKF

The reason why this has happened is because the supposedly sikh kaum cannot stop affiliating itself with its pride of caste. How many titles of " this sikh" "that sikh" are there? We even go as far to attribute caste to great shaheeds now, who died for the right to live by the sikh principles. So called Parcharaks and historians are fuelling the fire as they state one caste did more kurbani for sikhi than another. Dhan Dhan Bhagat Ravidas anti caste views within his shabads sound at such a volume, hence why they were compiled within our guru, but the so called sikhs of that guru today practice the religion of caste and simply bow down to the SGGS ji as mere ritual now. We should all as sikhs condemn caste, encourage the holy nectar and instead of holding caste close to our hearts, we should denounce our castes and hold strong our sikh bond with our brothers and sisters. Simply a boycott on caste is needed. As we are the parents now, if caste is still present within sikhi when our children become adults, we have no one to blame but ourselves. So if we really believe in the progression and the sustaining of our Nirmal panth, then it is everyone's responsibility and we as parents now should not blame the elder generation, we should educate them as we will educate our children and move forward as our guru intended.

WJKK WJKF

Dasguruka respect to you for speaking the truth. These people are unfortunately blaming sociological discrimination they have faced, sometimes quite horrendous, and instead of showing a better way, have almost lost the plot, in that they are breaking away into a manufactured path, which has no meaningful beginning and no real direction.

Bhagat Ravidas Ji have been universally respected by all Sikhs, and Guru Maharaj make an immensely strong statement by including their priceless bani in the treasure-trove of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji - the only universal Guru the world has ever known and will ever know.

What the people who think that they are respecting Bhagat Ravidas ji in this manner, by separating bhagat ji's bani, are actually doing is secluding Bhagat jis bani to a very small section of society; what they don't appreciate is that Guru Nanak Sahib ji through their 11 saroop abmonished caste so that peoples professions and work would be respected, but their standing in society would not be tarnished. They would all be equal. That is the statement that Bhagat Ji and Guru Ji make by leaving words or tuks in shabads that equate to so called caste, e.g. shimba, chamaar, jat etc. And by leaving those words in the Gurbani when each and every Sikh and non-Sikh bows down in reverence to Gurbani, they bow down to a chamaar, a shimba, a jat etc, and acknowledge that those Bhagats, in carrying out this work were the higehest of the high; they were all pure and, by being so pure they are now submerged back in Akaal purakh Waheguru. And whatever egotistical prejudicial view a fool like me may have, it stands trampled on by my ego having to bow down in reverence at the feet of a chamaar, a shimba, a jat etc as not our equals but as our masters.

We must earnestly partake in Amrit, which also reinds us that the first five came in a similar manner, from 5 different castes when they were Hindu and then when they were born again, they drank from the same vessel, a practice which still leads to certain death in some parts of India. We were to become brothers and sisters on the loving journey to Waheguru. This is where we have become separated; we have not been able to imbue the love in all sections of Sikh society that Guru Gobind Singh ji awaits us all, arms aloft, waiting to embrace us all regardless of to whom we were born or what work our forefathers carried out. Here in the west not many of us are farmers, fewer still are butchers or leather workers, or water carriers etc, yet many of us have held onto these labels as if that is our first love, when the love for these poisonous labels should have been abandoned when we first bowed in reverence to the banis of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and the bani of our lovingly rejoiced Bhagat jis. But the understanding of bani has not been as deep as our egos and these labels have stuck because we were unable to submerge ourselves in the soapy waters of bani and naam so that our egos could be washed away for good.

Rab rakha.

Great post, so much more needs to be done about the caste issue within sikhi, if only people would understand that really caste is simply a job title....nothing to be proud off like a shackle of a slave, holding them back from azaadhi, it is the largest detrimental opinion left in sikhi, which its affect is literally evident and the bases of why the split has happened.

Even now, in posts people are still attributing this communities caste, what has their caste have to really do with it? I think we should look at ourselves.

I look forward to reading your other posts.

WJKK WJKK

The gist of the verse is that talk & DAWAH are useless.

If anyone truly believes in caste it will eventually come out in the open.

WJKK, WJKF

Yes. I partially agree with you on that. DAWAH is useless but talk is verbal speech formed from ones mind and if based on the gurus, gurmat and gurbani it becomes sikhi da parchar. If it is self opinion, it is simply opinion.

I also agree with you that if one who gives themselves a title of sikh and then has a soft spot for caste, is indeed no sikh as they have not learnt one of the basic fundamental principles of sikih, it does definately come out in the open in the end.....like promoting caste based programs and inevitably becoming that parent, who instructs and misguides their children into marrying within their own caste. All along still claiming their sikhs.

Again, please can you clarify what caste has to do with ones karma? Because you still haven't? I have read that you don't read sakhi's, parchar from sants or gianies. So please provide me with a shabad from gurbani concerning the relation to Karam and Jaath Paath, also where guru ji tells us we will take our parents karma on. Please stay on topic and educate me why your view is as such, if I am incorrect in my thinking, please correct me with the relevant shabads in regards to what I have stated above.

WJKK WJKF

Just as passive smoking affects children; so does immoral wealth, and pooja da dhan. There are numerous references, as to why Guru Sahiban would throw wealth into the river, rather than feed the Sikhs with it.

There is a saying, not directly from Gurbani, but based on Gurbani kamiee:

Pooja da dhan tinn kamm karein; hadd bhanan, mat maran, Naam na jappan dehan.

Consuming pooja dhan or immoral earnings, will lead to: laziness, a corrupt mind, and the inability to japp Naam.

If anyone needs to see the practical result of this, just look at the people who feed themselves, and their children on such wealth...

Waheguru.....

WJKK, WJKF

Dear Mokham Singh ji,

I agree that one should earn an honest living however I personally thing this is a separate issue to whether a child takes his/ parents karma on.

WJKK WJKF

Gurbani talks about human psychology

ਜੋ ਜੀਇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਉਗਵੈ ਮੁਹ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਵਾਉ ॥(SGGS jeeo - Ang 474)

Jo Jeee Hoe S Ougavai Muh Kaa Kehiaa Vaao ||

जो जीइ होइ सु उगवै मुह का कहिआ वाउ ॥

Whatever is in the mind, comes forth; spoken words by themselves are just wind.

As for living with parents, solution is either learn to adjust, tolerate or find a place of your own.

WJKK WJKF

Dear Brother,

It feels like you keep moving the goal posts in a way. The original post was about whether a child takes on the karma of his/her parents, from disagreeing with you on bringing in caste within this debate, you now have stated a shabad of our guru ji in reference to the humans psychology? Again, I can not identify your point or understand what this has to do with our previous posts to one another. It's kinda out of context.

Also, you did not respond to what I asked and stated within my last post.

WJKK WJKF

WJKK, WJKF

Dear sister,

It's so difficult having to go through the day without having a good night sleep.

The only advice I can personally suggest is firstly, look at your daily routine, if your not physically busy enough try and fit in some excersise which will tire you out as you will use up your surplus energy, helping you feel tired before you actually go to bed.

If you do already do this and still experiencing distracting dreams, when your asleep having a dream, once the dream breaks and you are back into your own consciousness (even though you will still be very sleepy) DONT HO BACK TO SLEEP....... wake up, maybe go down stairs and have a glass of water, give it a few minutes and then go back to bed. This should break the continuous cycle of the dreams occurring. Also before you go to bed, you should remember Akal Purakh waheguru and say a personal prayer. Also when you wake up from the dream and go back to bed, again take your thought upon waheguru.

If the problem still occurs, before you go to bed you could listen or recite the sikh prayer of Kirtan Sohila before you go to bed. This will not affect your Hindu faith, as our guru is for everyone and waheguru is universal and unlimited.

Hope this helps sister, update me either way.

WJKK WJKF

I don't judge people based on their Caste but your topics/posts suggest that you certainly have a problem with yours.

Otherwise why bother ?

Anyway i was trying to make a point in regards to the verse you posted about not blaming others but your own karma or past deeds.

Which also includes being born in certain community, whether it is caste, class, religion etc

Coming to the second part or the main topic, Haraamkhor term is for the kids who accept food, clothing & shelter provided by parents but

still disrespect them. Either they should leave parental house & earn their own living like Guru Nanak Dev ji. Who moved to another city for work in Modi Khana.

Dear brother,

I think you are missing the point I am making and may have misunderstood my point.

Also, I am a sikh, I have no caste, so I do not have a problem, if you look back at any of my topics/posts I'm sure you will see that actually, my posts are 100% anti-caste. As a sikh, I will not promote any organisation/program/person who associates themselves with caste and at the sametime say their sikh, for e.g your topic on the sangat channel "sikh" matrimonial show lol. The problem lies within opinions and past affiliations with sikhs who were once at some point Hindu and still today take pride in their previous caste, where ever I see or read caste being associated with my guru and shaheeds sikhi, I will fight and apose it dear brother. It is my duty and responsibility as a sikh.

What I feel you have misunderstood on this topic is that within sikhi, there is no caste, period. So how can one be born within caste due to karmic actions? Dear brother, I feel you are mixing Hinduism and sikhi and coming out with a mixed view. Our path of mukhti, is not the same path as a hindu's path. You quote gurbani in many posts you make, I only wish you could apply gurbani to your acceptance of caste also.

Again, with the issue on parents Preaching Mann Matt. I believe it is every sikhs duty and responsibility to preach gurmat, irregards of relation. Just because it's your father or mother who are wrong, it does not mean you should follow them boundlessly breaking your religious rehat and principal with your guru?

I would like to ask you a direct personal question, Do you believe in caste and do you thing it has any part/role in sikhi?

WJKK WJKF

Then you should accept your caste & status that comes with it.

Didn't Bhagat Prahlad ji go against his father Harnakash ?

If you don't have the guts to walkout then at least don't be Haraamkhor and say bad stuff about parents.

According to Gurbani, a holi person can enlighten & change a person's destiny.

ਮੇਰੀ ਬਾਂਧੀ ਭਗਤੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ਬਾਂਧੈ ਭਗਤੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥(SGGS jeeo - ANG 1252)

मेरी बांधी भगतु छडावै बांधै भगतु न छूटै मोहि ॥

Merī bāʼnḏẖī bẖagaṯ cẖẖadāvai bāʼnḏẖai bẖagaṯ na cẖẖūtai mohi.

The devotee can release anyone from my bondage, but I cannot release anyone from his.

THE END.

WJKK, WJKF

Dear Brother,

Please can you explain to me why you have brought caste within this debate. What is the relevance and connection of caste to guru nanaks dev ji's patti I posted? If you support caste so much, please educate me to where our guru, SGGS ji or any of the Gurus accept caste. Also if you are sikh, how can you be associated with the Hindu hierarchy of caste? If you are a believer of the Hindu caste, then should you not do what the Hindu dharam tells you to do, to be born a Brahman male to gain mukhti and call yourself a Hindu, rather than a sikh of guru nanak?

Saying " bad stuff" and being "haraamkhor" to parents is one thing, but explaining to ones parents about gurmat if they are telling you to exist within Mann Matt is another. Would you then also suggest that Guru Nanak Dev Ji should be brought under the above term, as per his relationship with his parents, denouncing the janeu was against his parents will, do you suppose he should of just gone along with the ceremony and obeyed his parents wish? Or explained the gurmat what our father, Akal Purakh wants us to do?

WJKK WJKF

I am not creating anything, just putting the facts on table.

Let the readers make up their mind.

If grandmothers & mothers are given freedom, ie smartphone & a facebook account.

They too will start having affairs or will run away :-)

Dear brother,

Please specify what facts your putting on the table?

Also, I am a reader and what I stated was in my opinion, as what you stated is in your opinion. It's just a disagreement on opinion.

Lol, you assume every female, grandmother/mother or whatever status, if they are given "freedom" via smart phones/Facebook there all bound to having affairs and running away lol? That's kinda a degrading way to look at it, do you then also apply this same outcome to men? Or just females?

WJKK WJKF

why did these people separate from sikhi? they are from chamar caste i believe???

What has caste have to do with this issue? Whether they have separated from sikhi or not, why attach a particular caste? It's like if an issue arose with the American sikhs, someone would try and put it down to caste with them too lol. It's so irrelevant.

Guys if it's all about Karma then why are you giving advice to others ?

What is the need for Guru ie Gurbani & holy men.

Thing is, if you are knowingly associating with Durjan, Saakat or bad people then you too will have to pay.

Either you get out of the boat which is sinking or sink with it.

Simple as that !

Dear brother,

Please refer to guru nanak dev ji's patti:

ਦਦੈ ਦੋਸ੝ ਨ ਦੇਊ ਕਿਸੈ ਦੋਸ੝ ਕਰੰਮਾ ਆਪਣਿਆ ॥

Dadda: Do not blame anyone else; blame instead your own actions.

ਜੋ ਮੈ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਦੋਸ੝ ਨ ਦੀਜੈ ਅਵਰ ਜਨਾ ॥੨੧॥

Whatever I did, for that I have suffered; I do not blame anyone else. ||21||

It is self explanatory.

WJKK WJKF