sikhiseeker

This is probably the sweetest message i've ever read. I actually cant explain how it made me feel but its so lovely to know that we can and do actually come together as a Sikh family

Thank you!

WJKK, WJKF

Dear sister,

You do not have to thank me as I strive to be a servant in the house of guru nanak. I wanted to tell you, as sikhs we try to put out the flames of kaam, krodh, mo, lobh and ahankar everyday and it is such a struggle, however alcohol (sharaab) is the key fuel what makes the flames of these emotions burn stronger and fiercer. I know this because I drank for about 15 years of my life. Every mistake I have ever made has been made through alcohol, as is makes the 5 emotions so strong, it leads to a domino affect of bad personal decisions when drunk and inevitably there are consequences in everyday life and on our spiritual path of mukhti. The meaning of sharaab if you don't already know is, "sha" an abbreviation of satan and "aab" meaning water, defined as "satans water", in itself the word is self explanatory. So I just wanted to stress to you, alcohol is not the answer.

Also, if your love one passed on, think what their reaction would be to you coming of your path, what do you think their view would be if it was a connected reaction to their death and the emotion you felt? We do not know if our loved ones reach the goal of mukhti, however mukhti is only in reach of each individual person for themselves, you can't change whether I will merge with Akal Purakh due to my Karam, neither can I achieve mukhti for you.

The most important thing is you have recognised that you have tripped up, getting back up is what you have to do now as you cannot crawl spiritually through your life.

A really nice explanation of the meaning of us being here and death from gurbani is the salok of sheikh fareed. They give such a home hitting metaphor of what we do here wasting time.

So again don't worry, take darshan of SGGS Ji, do your ardas in your mind and hold strong as Akal purak is within you, he knows and bears witness to your reservations, worries and failings, he also witnesses the good deeds you have done, the simran of his name you have done and the love and faith which you have had and will find again!

If you find it hard to do Paath or simran, simply just listen and you will here the unstruck sound. Find shanti in your Mann. A Father, Mother, Brother, Sister, Uncle, Aunt, Husband, Wife, Son, Daughter, Friend and whatever other relation there can be all inevitably leave you or you leave them at some point of life, this vichora happens for everyone, but the only thing what will ever be steady and remain with you, after you and forever is Akal Purakh.

Sister, learn from my mistakes and try not to get in deeper, get yourself up!

WJKK, WJKF

Another case of a male trying to showcase his superiority of gender, I wonder what percentage of equality he interprets Sikh females were given from kalgidhar pitha.

Be great if they did something about the Sikh youth as portrayed in Panjabi and Indian media too, but i dont think it will happen as caste is always greater accepted in sikhi than anything else.

I have done my research to and that is why I have come to the conclusion. The meat issue is not just the issue here, its all the above mentioned and if we cannot discuss these issues as you state, it causes further rifts within the Panth, we basically again do not agree, we are burying our heads in the sand and not doing any think as the new generation of Sikhs. I see cracks emerging and i want to try fill them. However, up and till we don't recognise we have issues, they will get larger and worser. The numerous segmentations are evidence of this, like you said we are three thinkers, I am not a sheep who will just simply follow someone who has sant status gained from somewhere. The reason today behind our problems is our justification of our interpretation of sikhi and the Khalsa, yet we are the youngest religion out of the 5 worlds major religions, look how segmentated we have become, due to self ego, caste and power. Again, we simply bury our heads in the sand.

This will probably be locked now because we mentioned the word what should not be mentioned......meat! Lol

I think one beauty of Sikhs is how we can have our own opinion among ourselves and be free thinkers if you a group of sheeps who follow the sheep herder then you only need to defeat the sheep herder or just one sheep and you defeat all of them, because all of them share the same ideas. Let's say religion x which acts like a cult iterates a script among all of it's followers to convert people, all you need to do is defeat one person from x in debate and you defeated them all- they all think the same. In Sikhi if you defeat one person, we still have sava lakh more points. We were taught by our guru to be freethinkers and not to bow blindly before any cleric easily to become sheep easily.

Let me elaborate on the rehat issue: The sgpc rehat says you can eat meat but not halal, every other jatha agrees to this at least in some shape or form. Jathas which are pure vegetarians agree halal is a no-no but to add on to that they don't eat any other slaughter form. So they share that very basic. Nihang jathas and other factions with nihang origins promote pure jhatka and are against halal. Because of the panthic rehat both nihangs and vegeterian sikhs are both under the panthic rehat. So there rehat on that basis is one.

AKJ feel keski is a rehat, some jathas feel keski is a formality, SGPC says bare minimum is keep kesh with the other kakkars every Sikh jatha agrees keeping kesh is a requirement of khalsa so the panthic rehat is united on that issue.

The issue of how much paath and to which point to stop. Sikh jathas all say 5 banis, some say 5 banis in morning 2 after (evening and night), some tell you to do a bit more anand sahib some say do a bit more chaupai sahib stop here or there. SGPC gives the bare minimum of paath that every other jatha does anyway, any paath is better then no paath. So the panth is in agreement on the banis set to be read the least, and the SGPC encourages people reading more bani anyway.

Bibek buddhi, sarbloh rehat this is a very difficult one SGPC rehat say don't keep bibek with panthic dushmans such as massands, minas etc unless they take amrit become khalsa i.e repent. Every Sikh jatha is in agreement of that they only differ on technicalities on this matter.

So with the above technical differences we all do have on common rehat just we differ on technicalities. We do have one common rehat but many of us are still taking our baby steps before following that and in a way people are fine walking towards the guru, you walk one step, the guru takes a hundred. On the subject of marriage every jatha agrees a sikh should marry a sikh there is no difference in that rehat.

Gurusahib made the panth the guru and gave panth khalsa the power to make hukamnama and by the power of the five takht, sarbat khalsa, five jathedars and panj pyare from each takht everyone agrees with the bare minimum of the panthic rehat.

Again very interesting however I disagree everyone agrees on a common thread, just look at the question and answer shows on the various sikh channels and general opinions on websites like these, on issues like meat, there is no agreement at all. People will state clearly, meat is forbidden for sikhs, that's my point, too much of a mixed message. This website does not even allow topics on meat at all, as they have a outright no stance.

People who become ego centric about their own spiritual path will drift from it themselves, don't worry about the drifters just keep your own car on the track, because if you pay too much attention to the drifters you might end up drifting aswell - i'm not saying be apathetic to them or indifferent but focus on what matters more. Besides sometimes the best way to change a group is to change yourself, many Sikhs are always on the look for great sikhs and we need people to steer us right aswell. Since we are all products of our kaum, one factor can change the collective end product. It takes one great Sikh like Baba Deep Singh to make all the rest of us shine on the world stage. But in the court of god we need our own spiritual merit. It sounds like in the example of the car engine the parts are not working well oiled, and colliding in your example. Sikhi's correction method was always that great sikhs rose, flops fell. People like Banda Singh Bahadur grew in fame, the massands, minas all became no ones from once being from the gurus families or/and the equivalent of the panj pyare system in the past.

The rehat marayada have been based off the hukams of guru gobind singh, surely the panthic singh sabha's was in the opinion of many sikhs. If you read into how the singh sabha was formed as a body during the british empire to maintain and administer gurdwaras and sikh matters, some people have called the singh sabha sell outs to the british due to a few black sheep who were abstracted and due to how the Indian government can interfere in the successors of the singh sabha, the sgpc matters. Your thread was probably closed to avoid a secterian argument that could abrupt out of disagreements on versions of history or rehat.

Guru Gobind Singh's dictations of what rehat was, was written down by various writers in rehatnama such as bhai nand lal, bhai daya singh etc. You can get books listing the known ones and what they said. There were mutal matters in them and matters Sikhs who claim from prestige sikh lineages from prestige gursikhs with oral history considered to be direct interpolation, probably the massands changing them or error in transmission. There were hukamanama written by guru gobind singh combined with various historical sources all used by people like sardar kahn singh nabha and sardar vir singh to find what was common in them all and what the hukam of sikh was and to define sikhi so as to rid sikhs of the growth of heretical groups such as deviations of the massands and other anti-panthic groups which are introduced today. Some Sikhs such as bhai randhir singh another prominent sikh is said to have disagreed on the entire panthic matters so went on latter to form a jatha whose marayada was seen as the right one but it was still considered a part of the panth because the panth marayada's bare minimum was still in line with AKJs. Other segmented groups had reformation movements which I won't name to avoid people calling me a jatha-basher or start jatha bashing all of these various groups had that basis and felt certain teachings were not accurate. Now one of the other more famous groups was slowly moved out of the limelight of the panth which was the nihangs and alot more history goes into this.

But every legitimate Sikh group can agree that the very minimum to being a Sikh is in the SGPC rehat inherited from the Singh Sabha, the other groups only deviate on technicalities but for the most part agree on it's totality as being the framework of sikhi. Other groups who fundamentally reject panthic rehat, through out the Rehat marayada of the SGPC are usually anti sikh groups like the arya samaj, rss, bajrang dal, massands, minas, noormahalia, and more groups growing.

"English people" as it is who seek those things usually take an anthropological view on the entireity of Sikhs, the english people know heresy exists in every religion. But when people study a religion they are usually more concerned with it's teachings, tenants and philosophy rather then it's deviant heresy. We have to accept the heresy exists and work it out among ourselves, our religion gives us the freedom not to follow it if we choose and most of us take small steps in the faith. Although some people stress jathabandi is equal in weight of a problem to caste, I personally in my opinion feel caste is a worse problem. Jathas existed in the time of the Gurus such as the Tarna Dal (youth group) and Budha dal (elder group), tat khalsa, sarbat khalsa had various divisions mostly based on tactically displacement for survival during harder times. Jathas exist on geographical basis now, but the problem plaguing these jathas is people seeking jathedari, president seats, positions of power in sikh religious institutions and when they don't get it they make a new gurdwara, a new jatha, a new sect, a new religion. I wonder sometimes if people are so hungry for respect why don't they earn it else where in a career or open a company and become a CEO- invest that effort else where (maybe start projects translating more sikh texts which are lying around and haven't been translated yet). The respective jathas we have, have increased the competition between them and all of that has actually overall improved over time the quallity of the parchar - that is one positive. One negative is how we don't unite in times like turban searches or sikh attacks (such as grooming gangs- people run away, hate crimes etc.)

All of our "Sikh" numerous paths converge to one point which is Guru Granth Sahib, if we accept it as the light of guru Nanak and follow it we will not differ. This was the uniting factor in the times of guru gobind singh in times of hardship after the 10th guru among puratan sikhs. Out of all of the disputes; the worst of arguments would fade because gursikhs never quarrel in front of guru granth sahib; considering it as a great sin and people's enmity were even buried - the power of gurbani also opens up the human heart (not many experience,it all maharajs kirpa and hukam, but it happens).

WJKK, WJKF

Thanks for your reply, it was really interesting to read. I agree with you on many things you stated, I personally feel that our guru made one path, even though jathebandiya were around very early in the creation of the khalsa, like you stated. However today's jathebandiya are basically factions of sikhs who differ with beliefs. The numerous paths of sikhs that merge into one does not make sense to me. As there is only one khalsa not many. When sikhs wrote various rehat Maryade from the hukumname of Shiri Guru Gobind Singh, they at that point should of realised they were creating future factions which inevitably would work against sikhi. Only one rehat should of been released by elder sikhs in the name of the khalsa. The problem is, many sikhs views now differ on what sikhi is and what is permitted. So how can we unite and work out any dharmic issue if we are all segregated in the first place. I agree with you caste is such a disease breaking down the body of sikhi, but all these other factions are too.

Again, great informative post, thank you!

Dear sister,

Sorry to hear your struggle. Death is indeed one thing what brings a flood of emotions with it. My father passed away suddenly 5 years ago and I'm sure you felt the same feeling as I did of complete and utter shock. However sister, the lesson I have been taught from my 31 years of life ( I know it's not much) is that the only support which you will receive constantly in whatever situation, happiness, sadness, confusion is from Pramaatma, Akal purak themselves! As the only definate thing we will all go through, regardless of status, gender, religion etc is Death. So sister, you can have a conversation in your mind with Akal Purakh, as Akal Purakh resides within you, ask a question and it will be answered in some way you will recognise! Only god knows what resides within your deepest thoughts and he knows all your actions and failings, however we all fail and slip off the path, the important thing to do is recognise you have, which you have done and thing of the things which inspired your love for sikhi, hold on to it and move back stronger!

Everyone is different, no one is perfect for we all take this life as to gain mukhti. I used to drink, go clubbing etc but I always had a pull to sikhi like, I used to get irritated at the state of sikhs and their actions until after my dad's death, I realised that I moan about others being inadequate to call them selves sikhs, yet I am inadequate myself, so I thought that I will represent the sikhi that my guru established and all the Mahaan shaheed, men, woman and children gave their life's, complete bloodlines in kurbani for me to have the privelege to be able to follow sikhi. Our struggles today are not violence or wars or the unacceptance of our dharam, it is simply our own Mann. The war is with our Mann, our own mind is our biggest threat now, so sister when you feel the urge to take that detour, don't! Think of those shaheed what lined up to have their heads chopped off, think of those women who had their children cut up and stringed into a necklace, think of the sikhs what were skinned, scalped and scored with boiling hot water, all for our sikhi. Urge yourself to make these sikhs proud of us sikhs today, do it in their name for our kurbani today is in no comparison, as we just have to fight our mind!

So my sister, if you need to speak to akaal Purakh, speak to them, waheguru is within you, if you find your taking a detour, get directions from your family, the shaheed and gurus what gave so much and if you strive to be a sikh, be the strongest most i breakable sikh you can so we can set a standard for our future generation!

I leave you with my favourite shabad, Tu Daata, jiya sabhna ka basu mere Mann mahi!

You have a brother here, cheering you on! So don't lose your path!

WJKK WJKF,

Brothers, sorry for the late reply, iv logged on when possible to read everybody's contributions to the topic.

I think its a case of were gona have to agree to disagree on this one lol.

My opinion is based on what I believe our Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling us, I refer to shabads "aval Allah noor upaaya- ang 1350" and "koi bole ram ram- ang 885" for anyone who's interested.

I personally do not want to participate on insulting any religious prophet like the prophet Muhammad, as we all know how it feels to us when someone insults someone we hold close, whatever our claim is, we don't need to cause insult, because if our gurus didn't offend on that basis, why should we?

Also I have not said that everything about Islam and Hinduism is right at all, my point was waheguru exists in all and it's us who feel insecure to say not an iota of truth exists in any other faith about waheguru.

Various brothers have stated it could be sheikh Ibrahim's saloks and that the sources I have read from are ever bias or inaccurate, however, the source I read from is my Guru, Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and when my guru speaks, my guru says "salok sheikh fareed" which is really the full stop for me.

Also, on the topic some have stated that Sufism is not apart of Islam as they reject the prophet Muhammad? The majority of sufi sects I am aware of are Muslim and don't reject the prophet Muhammad, they hold Ali as the successor of Islam after the death of the prophet Mohammed where as the orthodox Muslims do not condone this. Also Sufism has a more mystic, spiritual version of Islam where Allah is within everything and is everywhere and the point of a sufi musalmaan is to merge back with Allah rather than go to a specific place in the afterlife, this view is very similar to our dharam in principal.

The view that Entertainers like the late, great Nustat Fateh Ali Khan would do anything for a quick buck is a little crude. Who are we to judge someone else's spiritual advancement in their own faith? The sufi celebrate waheguru, understanding the oneness of god in their own way as do we, yet my post about bhangra artist who cause caste divide go unseen, contradicting themselves by saying caste is great, then in a dharmic geet they sing caste is wrong. My topic on this didn't get much attention yet these people are able to poison young understanding on sikh principals and make a quick buck by doing so.

My point was that just because someone is a musalmaan, Hindu or Jew, does not mean they know no truth of parmaatma, language used by sheikh fareed meets both gurmat and anti gurmat e.g being buried in a grave and hell, their are many shabad in the gurbani that state idol worship and praying towards Mecca are inadequate, however their are many shabad which also refer to the oneness of parmaatma who has many names from every part of the world and out.

In my opinion, to think the world has known NO truth about god before sikhi is silly, the reason behind sikhi, Guru Nanaks Nirmal Panth is because the state of man kinds paap had blinded man kind, hence "sat guru Nanak pargateya meethi dundh jag chanan hoa". Guru Nanak enlightened the very parts of the world he reached. Who so ever wants to walk on the path of Nanak must play the game of love and put their head on their palm. Many people from other faiths do the same thing, "Islam" means to surrender, one has to surrender to gods will. We cannot say that people of other faiths have not surrendered to waheguru, it's people who interpret this wrongly, as in terrorism and the killing of innocent people. The gurbani tells us, that a person can find waheguru simply sitting in their home by surrendering. Again, the principal between parmaatma and his creation is this in its very essence without any stamp of any religion.

Someone on this website on another topic asked me the question "how far does my equality go". My answer then is relevant here, as sikhs such as "SIKHKOSH" quite sarcastically remarked once again "my favourite people, the Muslims" in one of his posts. SIKHKOSH dear brother, the Muslims are my favourite people, as are the Jews, Christians, Buddhists, White, black or whatever creation of waheguru. I strive to see pramaatmaa in every individual I meet irregards of their religion or ethnicity. I am no higher or lower to a Muslim, I am a learner, a sikh of guru Nanak, my karma and their karma has been written and we will all inevitably be judged on our action. We can see the fundamental floors in other peoples faiths, yet we cannot sort out our own problems within our faith which was perfect and now has been factioned and fragmented. We can insult someone else's prophet which they hold close, yet we allow people who call themselves sikhs and at the same time mock our gurus principals.

Pramaatma has no bounds, Pramaatma is everything, everyone and all knowing. To think that sikhs have the monopoly on Pramaatma is simply ahankar. The thing that makes us different from the majority of the major worlds religions is we do not preach that we are the ultimate people, we are simply learners, we are Akal purakhs faujh, the khalsa, we protect everybody who suffers injustice including "my favourite people" the Muslims as Dhan Dhan Baba Taru Singh Ji did. Every sikh is obliged to tell others of their faith as our gurus did, however we do not need to carry out Dawa, the defragmentation of another's faith to highlight their own faith.

The unity of god as I have stated does not mean that a sikh can idol worship or dishonour their kesh or use tobacco (any kurehit) as if we call ourselves sikh, we have to abide by the law given to us as sikhs. That means the sikhs that lived and called themselves sikhs pre guru gobind Singh, lived within the then rehat, after 1699 dasmesh pita gave us the gift of amrit, then great Mahaan sikhs who lived as sikhs pre amrit took amrit and adopted the khalsa, as did many others as this was the new maryada that we should all aspire to live as sikhs and take amrit. I think it was veer Mehab Singh that asked me whether it is ok for someone who cuts their hair, smokes tobacco and consumes alcohol to matha tekh SGGS ji, as we can take sikhi with a pinch of salt, well it happens all around the U.K on a Sundays divan. Many sikhs are sehaj dhari, smoke and consume alcohol? I don't quite understand your point? People already take sikhi with a pinch of salt, that's my issue and what brings me to discuss matters on here. Muslims have their own rehat as do Jews and Christians. The thing that sets us aside as sikhs is that to get to the desired destination afterlife you have to be apart of that very faith, if you are not Muslim, Jewish or Christian you are a kafir or infidel or non believer. In our faith, you can be anybody and find waheguru. Religion, caste, colour, creed are all irrelevant. The concept of kafir or infidel are against sikhi and waheguru. This is evident in the concept of langar and the architecture of Harmandhir Sahib. I think we have forgotten that and moved far from the principal of what our gurus set.

After all, our gurus and Mahaan shaheed gave kurbani for people to practice other faiths and Shiri Guru Hargobind Ji even constructed a Mosque, for the worship of Allah/Waheguru by Muslims as per their rehat. The khalsa faujh are the protectors of peoples faiths not destroyers.

Now, I'm off to start my own jatha that sheikh fareed was Muslim lol, joke!

WJKK WJKF

I leave you this beautifully sung shabad, by sufi Muslims via the musical medium of sufi quwali in a gurdwara in the uk. The late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, so blessed by waheguru.

Lol, mehtab Singh/sikh kosh, if professor Khalil nazmi is the head of the sufi sect of sheikh fareed now, why are they still Muslims of as you both state they are sikhs of the guru, if they are sikhs of the guru should they of not taken the amrit of Guru Nanak ji in his tenth form? As sikh kosh you stated dhan guru Nanak was a companion of sheikh Ibrahim. To adopt another groups language and terms means what exactly? That their then alittle bit more sikh than they are Muslim? As you said, professor Khalil has more right to speak on the matter of his sect, but I'd love to hear him answer your and mehtab singhs question or answer really " you must be sikh sir, because your sheikh before you has bani in our SGGS and you are no Muslim as you are a sufi " I live in the uk, work around Christian Holidays, give Chrishtian Holiday greeting cards to my neighbours and I speak English also using Christian Terms, dear lord am I becoming a Christian to brother?

Also brother why should I stop saying "sufi Islam this", "sufi Islam that"? Because you think it is not apart of Islam? Why don't you ask a sufi MUSLIM what religion he is apart of. Why do you have the right to say they are not Muslim because they do not follow the basic tenets of Islam? Like I stated before, us sikhs have many a different understanding with one another, we can't even discuss meat on this site however can easily discuss caste. But hey, we're all great sikhs!

Also, it sounds like really, it's not the debate about sheikh fareed which is getting you irrate, however your intolerance of Islam and that you cannot accept the bani of sheikh farid is written by a Sufi Muslim, because really you can't accept that a MUSLIM from Islam knows some truth about Akal Purakh, hence why your need to stamp him a sikh and to reinsure yourself "it's ok"

Mehtab Singh, when Shiri guru Nanak dev rejected Islam and Hinduism and why still have Muslim/Hindu scribes in the SGGS, again because it is the beauty and truth behind the gian what's been written! Let them be Hindu and Muslim, for Akal Purakh knows truth about everything and other religions also know some truth about waheguru, hence the Hindu and Muslim scribe in iur SGGS.

WJKK WJKF

Please search "Farid" on these pages:

http://www.searchsikhism.com/101.html

http://www.searchsikhism.com/102.html

Also, please care to explain the following by Bhagat Fareed Jee

ਬੋਲੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲੀਐ ॥

So speak the Truth, in righteousness, and do not speak falsehood.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਸੈ ਵਾਟ ਮੁਰੀਦਾ ਜੋਲੀਐ ॥੩॥

The disciple ought to travel the route, pointed out by the Guru. ||3||

Ang 488

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮੇਲੀ ॥

In His Mercy, God has united me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਜਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਅਲਹੁ ਬੇਲੀ ॥੩॥

And when I look again, then I find God as my Helper. ||3||

Ang 794

A Sufi Muslim who intends to bring others to Islam uses words like ਗੁਰੁ and ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ . What does that infer? My entire point from the beginning has been to trying to understand Bhagat Fareed Jee's Bani and then concluding if it sounds like a person who could be (a.) following anything other than Gurmat, (b.) bringing others to the fold of anything but Gurmat.

Thanks

Mehtab Singh ji, I understand your point, but still don't see the point of calling someone a Sikh just because their scripture was added to SGGS, you provided me examples of language used which is not of a Islamic nature by a Sufi sant, I provided you with language and religious references of Islamic nature by a Sufi sant. As you have provided me with some links to references, I will definitely have a read and thank you for that.

Lets not talk about historians then. Lets talk facts. Bring your source to prove that Bhagats were not Sikhs from their writings plus history.

1. Do you deny that all Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

2. How would you explain a fanatical Muslim (as you claim Sheikh Fareed was one) revering a "Kafir", Guru Nanak Dev and use un-Islamic terminology such as Guru, Saadh, etc.

3. Do you really believe people like Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed and Bhagat Ravidas were Muslims or Hindus? How can one be a Muslim when he rejects Hajj (Kabeer)?

4. Professor Khalil of Pakistan claims that a migrant to Punjab like Sheikh Fareed could not have written such Bani in Punjabi. Give proofs that the 12th century Sheikh Fareed, a non Punjabi, managed to write such poetry and so similar to the Punjabi of 300 years after of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Language evolves over 300 years, or will you now claim it does not ?

5. Did Sheikh Fareed write his Bani in Arabic script?

Don't believe things only because you read them on net, research history brother. Read Janamsakhis. Can you tell me what Janamsakhis say about Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak? Where they met?

WJKK WJKF,

1) whether or not Shiri Guru Nanak Dev ji met all the bhagats in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib has got no relevance to the topic however, just because someone met our Guru, does not mean they became a Sikh. Our Guru met many people, many who claim he is of their religious fold like the Muslims, so obviously they never converted to sikhi in order to say he was a Muslim.

2) sheikh baba fareed was a Sufi Muslim. It differs very much from orthodox Islam and as discussed with my brother Mehtab Singh and I, even the orthodox Muslims do not condone Sufism. The approach of Sufism is totally different to the kafir as you so rightly state, as similarity is explored and held on to rather than the difference. I'm not sure if you have read Sufi Kalaam but it is very interesting at least for the beautiful words they use in the name if god. A Sufi sant is the same equivalent to our guru for Sufi musalmaan. When they started to preach in India, do you think they would use their mother tongue or speak the language of the land? Like our Shiri Guru Nanak, would he have spoke Panjabi in Bagdad?

3) Again just because the sheikhs and bhagats bani is in our gurbani does not make them Sikh, i think that it demonstrates our insecurity in the sense that we have to stamp someone a Sikh if they know some truth of pramaatma. We are now claiming these people to be if our fold, like how the Hindus and Muslims did to Shiri Guru Nanak. Again, the Rehat of the Sunni and Shea are two very different things. One rejects hajj, one rejects Ali, one rejects shrines, one rejects the peer.......so on and on and on yet they all believe their Muslim! Very similar to us "UNITED" sikhs, yes/no to Shri Dasam Granth, yes/no to meat, this jathebandi, numerous Rehat Maryade so on and on and on, but we all believe were Sikhs.

4) I have no proof against the claim of the Professor Khalil of Pakistan, however Shiri Guru Gobind Singh also wrote the beautiful, exquisite Zafarnama in Persian verse which was not his mother tongue but obviously was one of the languages he could speak and write. The beauty of the language which is written, is devised from the beauty of that mind that perceives it to be written, from at which initial point that perception is given, by Shiri Akal purakh, I obviously cant say that language does not evolve over a period of time, however the Salok of shiekh fareed are in our gurbani, it's not a conspiracy.

5) The bani I know and love of baba shiekh fareed is in our Guru Granth Sahib which I put my faith in as it is my guru, whether it was in Arabic/ Greek/ Latin before makes no difference to me.

I tried to answer your questions fully, I have three young children and work full time so sorry I took so long, everyday is a rush.

However its a little insulting for you to suggest to me not to believe in everything I read off the internet and to also ask me if I have read and have any knowledge of janam sakhis of various bhagats. If you are so knowledgeable and have been granted gian from our guru, why would you pose such a question in the stated language? it is not in a Sikhs character to try and ridicule or patronise someone as sheikh baba farid Salok states ;

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਤੂ ਅਕਲਿ ਲਤੀਫੁ ਕਾਲੇ ਲਿਖੁ ਨ ਲੇਖ ॥

Fareedhaa Jae Thoo Akal Latheef Kaalae Likh N Laekh ||

फरीदा जे तू अकलि लतीफु काले लिखु न लेख ॥

Fareed, if you have a keen understanding, then do not write black marks against anyone else.

ਆਪਨੜੇ ਗਿਰੀਵਾਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੁ ॥੬॥

Aapanarrae Gireevaan Mehi Sir Nanaeevaan Kar Dhaekh ||6||

आपनड़े गिरीवान महि सिरु नींवां करि देखु ॥६॥

Look underneath your own collar instead. ||6||

WJKK WJKF

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became

If people in the Indian subcontinent converted mostly due to Sufism, then why is number of Sufi Muslims so small in India and Pakistan.

The original topic was about the Mughals, to which a discussion started on Sufism which contributed to the conversion numbers of Islam. I'm not sure of the specific percentage of the Sufi population of in both India and Pakistan, however history tells us Mughal and Sufi converted Indians. The Sufi didn't go to India site seeing for a holiday lol. Its was to spread the doctrine of Islam via the Sufi method other to that of the Mughal regime.

WJKK WJKF,

Mehtab Singh,

I'm happy to hear you have the respect for some Sufi sant however again, you presume that the whole of India was against the Islamic invasion and all Indians were bruised from the struggle against it. In my opinion brother, this is wrong as some people accepted Islam voluntary and there was indeed issues of inequality as we both are aware. As this is my opinion, it is your opinion that Sufi sants in our gurbani were not the "type" of Sufi sant who would convert people to Islam, their is no such proof on this matter. A Sufi is a Sufi spreading the love of Allah as they see it. Why would a Sufi sant then not convert? In indian history, Islam flourished due to the Sufi movement.

Your point about the Salok of shiekh fareed being alongside gurmat, the Salok talk about hell and laying in a grave, being eaten by worms, also dust, which is at one point beneath you then above you, again when one is buried as per the Muslim right, these are not a concept from sikhi however more from the abrahamic faiths. I have mentioned these as they are not per gurmat.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਕੁ ਨ ਨਿੰਦੀਐ ਖਾਕੂ ਜੇਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Khaak N Nindheeai Khaakoo Jaedd N Koe ||

फरीदा खाकु न निंदीऐ खाकू जेडु न कोइ ॥

Fareed, do not slander the dust; noting is as great as dust.

ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਪੁਰਸਲਾਤ ਕੰਨੀ ਨ ਸੁਣੀ ਆਇ ॥

Vaalahu Nikee Purasalaath Kannee N Sunee Aae ||

वालहु निकी पुरसलात कंनी न सुणी आइ ॥

The bridge to hell is narrower than a hair; haven't you heard of it with your ears?

ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਪੈਰਾ ਤਲੈ ਮੁਇਆ ਉਪਰਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੭॥

Jeevadhiaa Pairaa Thalai Mueiaa Oupar Hoe ||17||

जीवदिआ पैरा तलै मुइआ उपरि होइ ॥१७॥

When we are alive, it is under our feet, and when we are dead, it is above us. ||17||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਮੈ ਭੋਲਾਵਾ ਪਗ ਦਾ ਮਤੁ ਮੈਲੀ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Mai Bholaavaa Pag Dhaa Math Mailee Hoe Jaae ||

फरीदा मै भोलावा पग दा मतु मैली होइ जाइ ॥

Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

ਗਹਿਲਾ ਰੂਹੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਭੀ ਮਿਟੀ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੬॥

Gehilaa Roohu N Jaanee Sir Bhee Mittee Khaae ||26||

गहिला रूहु न जाणई सिरु भी मिटी खाइ ॥२६॥

My thoughtless self did not realize that one day, dust will consume my head as well. ||26||

ਪਾਸਿ ਦਮਾਮੇ ਛਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਭੇਰੀ ਸਡੋ ਰਡ ॥

Paas Dhamaamae Shhath Sir Bhaeree Saddo Radd ||

पासि दमामे छतु सिरि भेरी सडो रड ॥

Drums were beaten in their honor, there were canopies above their heads, and bugles announced their coming.

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤੇ ਜੀਰਾਣ ਮਹਿ ਥੀਏ ਅਤੀਮਾ ਗਡ ॥੪੫॥

Jaae Suthae Jeeraan Mehi Thheeeae Atheemaa Gadd ||45||

जाइ सुते जीराण महि थीए अतीमा गड ॥४५॥

They have gone to sleep in the cemetary, buried like poor orphans. ||45||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥

Fareedhaa Eitt Siraanae Bhue Savan Keerraa Larriou Maas ||

फरीदा इट सिराणे भुइ सवणु कीड़ा लड़िओ मासि ॥

Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh.

Also, as I have stated in my previous posts, im aware Sufism is not in accordance to orthodox Islam, however the Sufi community still see themselves as Muslims. Just like us Sikhs now having many Rehat Maryade and jathebandi, we all see ourselves as Sikhs rite? The Sufi sant in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib were no different from the other Sufi preachers of Islam, the Uch de Peer still today are Muslim, even though some do not cut their kesh out of the respect of the gurus house, but they are still Muslim according to their own Rehat.

As I said, other religions also know truth about Akal purakh, to think no other religion out there has any truth and does not know any beauty of pramaatma, is a very confined notion to have. I am not saying all other religions are right, but I cannot say that they do not know any truth at all. The logic behind sikhi was the creation of the Khalsa, Akal purakhs fauj, to fight for justice for the world, our enemy was never Islam, but the Mughal Regime that used force against some ones will and bring down the inequality against one another. That was the logic behind sikhi and why it was needed!

Dhan Dhan bhai gurdas ji said "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya" because Shiri guru Nanak did lol, but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in? Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said? It doesn't work like that my brother, god dwells within all, if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian, its about devotion to your faith and respect to the other faith for pramaatma is within all living beings and in mass. We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

Sheikh Baba Fareed lived and died a Muslim, converting people to Islam as per the Sufi Rehat to which he lived by, which knows some truth of Akal purakh waheguru and our purpose for being born in human jhoon.

WJKK WJKF

It is accepted by many noted historians that the Fareed of Gurbani is the contemponary of the Guru, a spiritual successor to the 12th century Fareed, who was impressed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The real name of this Bhagat was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani.

The devout and fanatical Sheikh Fareed, one who converts people to Islam as you said yourself, would not use un-Islamic terms such as Guru, Saadh in his Bani.

The meeting between Gurudev and Bhagat Fareed has been documented in many Janamsakhis, such as the Puratan and Meherbaan.

All Bhagats whose writing is included in Guru Granth Sahib were influenced by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were therefore his Sikhs. And don't tell me you believe that Sain Mian Mair laid down the foundation stone of Harmandar Sahib?

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion, If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi, however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so, he was fanatical about god but the Sufi path of Islam is very different to that of orthodox Islam. Thats why there is no obligation to using in-Islamic terms in the Salok. If you research the Sufi path, you will see how different it actually is, Quwalli is a product of Sufism, which would be strictly against sharia for orthodox Muslim right? Sufi ustaad, like the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

To conclude, Sufism is obviously not orthodox Islam as Islam rejects Sufism itself, in my opinion, they are the Salok of sheik farid, who lived and died a Sufi sant musalmaan, Sheikh Ibrahim Sani was the successor of that Sufi Gaddi, but if they were his Salok he simply would of called them his Salok.

God dwells in all people of all faiths, they know truth about Akal purakh, if that is then written and added to the Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became a Sikh, the gurus met many people, not all turned to sikhi for e.g they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

I do quite admire Dr. Naik, honestly.

But just for you quick attention :

Tiwanas claim their ancestry from Raja Bhoj (Parmar Rajput Clan) who ruled India and had capital at Bhojpur in Madhya Pradesh, India. It is believed that Tiwanas settled in the Punjab region, in search for a fertile lands after the fall of Parmar kingdom. During the Bhakti movement in the 15th century, they followed Guru Nanak's {Founder of Sikhism} teachings and became Sikhs at the time.

Those who settled in the western Punjab became Muslims by accepting Islam at the hands of Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Commonly known as Baba Farid (ਬਾਬਾ ਫ਼ਰੀਦ), he was a 12th century Sufi preacher and saint of Punjab

lol, how about another thread then ?

Lol mehtab Singh ji, when I read my posts back, i sometimes sound like Dr. Naik lol, I apologise if I sound rude, this is not my intention my brother, so if I have offended you in anyway, phul chuka de khema brother.

Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

This was my original post mehtab singh. I was linking the debate that the whole history should be told as its a huge saga as for e.g 1984. Islamic conversion wasn't just done by the moguls, hence why I added the Sufi history in for the attention of "Big Tera" as he may also find it intriguing as I do.

I was not talking about whether Shiri guru Nanak was Muslim. You just brought that up for some reason. Mainstream Islam obviously does not condone the approach of Sufism, i'm aware they don't hold sheikh baba fareed in high esteem, still does not change the fact that he lived as a Muslim as per his Sufi Rehat and died as a Muslim, buried and enshrined as per their SUFI MUSLIM REHAT.

Also, You quoted my post, you asked me the question I replied to your question to which you then replied and now your asking me to keep on the topic? Lol!?

Nice piece of research however just because the saloks were added into our Guru Granth Sahib does not mean they became Sikh. They wrote simple truth of Akal purakh, the same for Bhagat Ravidass Ji and Bhagat Kabir ji. These never became Sikhs. They just knew sach. Sheikh baba fareed is a Sufi sant musalmaan, which is not along the same line of orthodox Islam, for e.g the singing of devotional hymns, the swirling dervish all stemming from Rumi. However they were musalmaan just how us Sikhs have now many jathebandi and paths and Rehat Maryada. We all claim were Sikh, just as sheikh baba farid is Muslim even though his Rehat is different to the other main stream Muslim Rehat.

Sheikh baba farid converted people to Islam, I can remember reading this, also a vast number from the Tiwana ghot. I read this in a piece of history on baba sheikh fareed, but cant remember the source, but when I find it il be sure to let you know sir.

From the 1 guru onwards it was martial.It did not start with sri guru hargobind sahib Ji.

WJKK WJKF,

Dhan Dhan Baba Buddha Sahib ji smashed the onion with his fist and said to mata Ganga Devi, your child will be strong and be able to smash the enemies of guru nanaks house as I have smashed this onion.

The first Sikh armies and arms were raised by Shiri Guru Hargobind, he made Sikhs a Martial race. Our other gurus ji's were not martial as no war was physically thought between two sides. It was Shiri Guru Hargobind who took on the Mughal Regime due to the martyrdom of Shiri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

The Sufis came only after India was bruised by repeated Islamic invasions. They did the job of what a Pakistani army nurse would do to an Indian soldier after he has been wounded by Pakistani bullets and captured alive. Sugar coated sweet talk therapy after a boot camp thrashing session I'd say.

Baba Fareed Jee was not that type of a saint. Please find me any source where he preached Islam and had people convert.

Mehtab Singh, sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh. What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam? Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned. Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

Also veer ji, The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk. Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions, just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

you know it dear....we sikhs always escape.....we can't face the truth...... .. hypocrisy in sikhs f*cks these days.....

I think because we're the younger generation, we can all reform and get back to what sikhi was about, one path one panth! For the sake of our children and the state of our dharam

Yea it is a confusing issue, I think we can have our personal opinion because we are Akal Purakh de faujh, we can condemn that person for their actions, if criminal they can be punished within the laws of that land and receive punishment via the legal system. We can do ardas out of our own compassion for that person, that in no way is anti gurmat, but the end all and be all is really, they will be judged at the weight of their own karma. They will then be reborn at stage one and will have to get their karma right to progress through to human birth, for in this Jhoon we can achieve Mukhti, but can you imagine having to go through 8.4 million Jhoon to gain human form? What a horrible thought, even worse than the Abrahamic faiths concept of Hell.