sikhiseeker

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, the original Bhat Movement brought many people to sikhi, who then joined this movement in travel through India. Yes, when this mass of people reached Punjab they would of done the same parchar and brought people to sikhi there too, but the emphasis is on sikhi. Due to the movement being poets, people associated with this community of Sikhs would have been called bhatrai, but this is where manmatt then creates caste, not sikhi. This is where just as any other jaat, caste creeps in and caste based marriage occurs which in result, works against the foundations of sikhi and it's tennets. The tennets of which the original bhats were so moved by, they physically moved throughout India singing that parchar.

Hai hai baba....brother lol, were just literally on a next level tangent now. Shall we both just do our kirtan sohila and ardas for sarbhat da bhala? Good idea or am I being to sanctimonious again? I do wish I had enough gian to be a Giani though, it's been my dream since a kid. Hope to get there one day.

WJKK WJKFVeer, believe me I'm no sant, more like shataan. I don't hide either but I believe in gurmat, if you wanna call what I have to say as "sanctimonious crap" that's your choice. But do you say that to your Giani at your local gurdwara too? Also why use "we" in knowing that I'm no sant? Who's "we".....please introduce me atleast veer.....leave what ever pehta you will aswell lol. Preferably cash of any currency. Thank you come again (Apu from the Simpsons)

WJKK WJKFVeer ji, The bhagats of the gurbani called "Bhat de swaiye" originated from Sri Lanka. The original Bhat parchar movement worked its way through India, upto northern India doing parchar of sikhi. This was gurmat, not manmatt. It is the manmatt of man which then attributes caste on this movement. These people were Sikh, with their parchar bringing other people towards sikhi. Panjab is irrelevant to sikhi. Veer ji, read gurbani, there is no place on this earth where akal purakh does not exist, meaning sikhi has no geographical boundary. Fact of the matter is, if you continue to believe in Bhatra sikh, the you have to believe in all of the other caste based Sikhs. These so called castes of then preserved due to arrive within them. The only way to realise this falsehood is sikhi, the Amrit and the Khalsa.

WJKK WJKFVeer, please read your own posts, ask yourself the question and all will be answered. Like they say to an addict, you first have to admit there's a problem, then you will be able to resolve it. WJKK WJKFThank you, I must of misread something you wrote within a previous thread which is obviously my mistake. But I'm glad you accept my apology veer.

WJKK WJKF Sorry! Your ancestral tribe may not be numerous among sikhs, but within Sikhs, there are only Sikhs. But again, sorry bro.

WJKK WJKFMassacre another's caste supremacy rants with your own caste supremacy egotistic rants....please don't veer, il definitely be there and try and use gurmat to make a point ether than caste. Did you read your own words which I quoted? You didn't mention it you see.............wonder why?

WJKK WJKF Jagsaw Singh, I think you should go through the original thread, read all my replies on the thread to you and to other contributors, also any other post I have made on different topics. You will then see that I am anti-caste, that means all castes not just jatts. I'm sure we can both agree, that the thread needs to be closed, right?

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, apologies for my shortfall in grammar, I will try and be more concise for you. As you requested, you stated: Its the Sikh work ethic Roudh, and it is what differentiates us from the Muslims. It is also, in many ways, what, for the past 100 years or so, marked the Bhatras out as being very different from the other Sikh groups. That work ethic and the long held Punjabi female spirit of hard physical work had, up until now, been sorely lacking among the Bhatras. It is worth us remembering at this point, the letter Alexander the Great sent home to his mother in Greece when he reached Punjab. His letter stated that it was unlike any land he had attempted to conquer before as the Punjabi women would work the fields as much as the men. You see, my friend, in this regard Sikhi is similar to Calvanism in that most Sikhs, especially the jatts, believe that hard work is a route to salvation. I myself am studying for my doctorate but earn my keep by working hard physical low paid manual labour in warehouses for minimum wage. It is part of my psyche, as a Sikh, to do that. I will happily clean toilets too. Its an honest living. So, in that regard, one should at this point refer back to that book by Denzil you mentioned a number of times in your last post. According to The Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and British historians of British India, Bhatras were not considered ethnic Punjabi and their heritage was attributed to central India, specifically Uttar Pradesh. Those historians state that of all the Sikh communities the Bhatras are the only ones that were not native to the Punjab and only entered the Punjab after embracing Sikhism given Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's travels in central and southern India. I'm not saying they're right in their assessment but you have to admit it does somewhat explain the missing inherent Punjabi / Sikh spirit of gender equality and calvanist work ethic.

Veer ji, what threads....the one by the starter of this thread in which we both conversed previously? I'm confused....what other Bhatra threads? Please tell me your killing me with the suspense. Also, you came into a caste thread with your own castist opinion (as you stated, your a jatt sikh, lol) to say to the poster, take your caste to your caste based website whilst stating yourself this is a sikh website and at the same time promoting your own caste associating it with the nirmal panth sikhi and the casteless Khalsa? Brother, define contradiction for please?

WJKK WJKFVeer ji, our ancestors have nothing to do with where your going or defining who you are. Gurmat and gurbani defines who you should be and where you should go. Our ancestors gave us life in blood and flesh, by the hukam of our creator, it is the creator who is the only giver and supporter. No one else. Also veer ji, we can converse through pm in more detail in order to get this thread closed as it's not achieving any benefit to sikhi parchar.

WJKK WJKF Brother, unlike you and your open jattism, you assume I am of Bhatra ancestry? Why? Because I know history of the bhagats of gurbani? Lol Veer ji, please state where I have "bigged up" any caste? While claiming your a jatt sikh yourself lol?

WJKK WJKF Me too....married with no emphasis on jaat. Where I came from is irrelevant, where I need to get to is everything. My atmaa needs to merge back with parmaatma....by the gurus grace and at the feet of Akal purakh my deeds will be judged.

WJKK WJKF MODERATORS, even the person who opened the topic is saying close it down lol! Somebody, anybody........

WJKK WJKF Lol, I love the way you used CAPITAL LETTERS in the attempt to highlight that I maybe embarrassed of my ancestors lol. Brothers ancestors are the Sikhs who have their lives for me to call myself a sikh. Also, I think you miss the point of why people state the panj pyare's PREVIOUS caste and the location they lived in. It's not to encourage ego in their individual castes, it's to show that they left it all behind brother, not bringing it into sikhi!

WJKK WJKF Unfortunately, the moderators on this site would have closed this thread down if it was anything to do with the topic of jhatka as in sikhsangats words " jhatka is anti gurmat" however if there's a topic in which people who call themselves Sikhs whilst at the same time promoting their own caste supremacy, spouting nonsense and creating more segregation like jagsaw singh, sikhsangats moderators are non existent. Obviously caste supremacy is something sikhsangat.com and it's moderators deem to be fine, allowing jagsaw Singh to go on and on, and on, and on, and on and on.....please someone direct him to jattworld.com along with starstriker where they can gauge themselves on everything about their beloved caste. Moderators lock this thread.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, I can't remember where I saw or read this, but I think it was the sikh channel? Someone said that women are permitted to do kitten at Sri harminder sahib, however any katharevousa ha to be well versed and read, being able to sing over a 1000 shabad. Due to the life and role of many women within a life of ghristi, many are able to get to that threshold? I don't agree with that at all, I think if you can sing shabad and are trained, Kirtan should be permitted with equality of gender.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, maybe you should start a new topic specifically on "tradition", "culture" and "language", as this topic is about Muslims doing KIRTAN in which the history of the mirasi has been discussed.

WJKK WJKF Yea to be fair I think a high percentage of mirasi are still Sufi Musalmaan. Obviously a certain percentage would have converted to sikhi, however their role is still basically hired talented musicians. Sikh kirtan jathas somewhat different as they believe in the gurmantar in which they sing, where as the hired mirasi sings beautifully and gets payed his dues.

WJKK WJKF I think you have misunderstood my post, I was basically asking you, if you love panjab so much and your jatt heritage, why don't you and your family migrate back to your rural village literally? Why live in a foreign land? The other thing you have confused me about is you promote within your posts the hard work ethic jatts have and how both male and female worked the field and that some Sikhs do not hold this work ethic, directing it indirectly towards the bhatra community within this topic. Now, you have stated in essence that the land owner does not work his land, the employees do, you also stated that even though you are well educated and could get a high paying job, you feel the need to do a job which requires manual labour? So which is it? You are teaching your children to oversee work done by whom on the fields? Will your children eventually farm fields or oversee farming of fields as you say, within the uk at some point?

WJKK WJKFSorry disagree, kirtan is not a family tradition or culture, it's the norm for Sikhs rural or urban. Kirtan being an integral part of sikhi, the very method Guru Nanak Dev Ji utilised as to reach the hearts of people he met on his travels.

WJKK WJKF Yea probably a difference in location then however many members of my family were kirtani jathas, originally lahore de sikh.

WJKK WJKF Akal purakhs wahegurus beautiful creation can be seen all over the world and beyond. I have personally come across quite a few people within your caste in which the older generations are now selling their land due to the younger generation not being bothered and also because they moved out of Punjab and reside in another country, where the economy is more stable, they are financially secure and their children/children have become to westernised to have the knowledge to work the field or even survive as to how your ancestors did. Veer ji, why don't you take your kids and family back to your rural village? I don't see many "jatt" migrating back to their rural villages in India to once again, continue farming however I do recognise the numbers immigrating to countries like Italy, Dubai, Uk, Canada and Malaysia etc?

WJKK WJKF If any brother or sister wishes to discuss the origins and history of the composers of the bhata de swaiyye without bringing any caste supremacy issues within the discussion or jay status into it lol, please pm me. Interestingly, the word waheguru is written once within our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, within the swaiyye of the bhats.

WJKK WJKFVeer ji, I think after the Sakhi of Balvand Rai and his brother Satta dhoom within the time of our Guru Arjan Dev ji, learning kirtan was encouraged by our guru and was then undertaken by his sikh, no longer continuing with the tradition of the the musical trained mirasi.