YOYO29
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Everything posted by YOYO29
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Fine !! now tell me why we don't see the same level of minority migration in Bengal ? If Muslims were so evil why they did not cleanse the East Bengal of minorities like they did in West Punjab.There is reason that Muslim reaction was severe in West Punjab than in east Bengal which still has 10% minority population.No huge transfer of population like the scale of Punjab took place in Bengal.Both Bengals still have significant number of minorities. This is in clear contrast to Punjab.Why do you think Punjab situation was worse than Bengal ? Only thing I can think of is that Sikh leadership did not want to have their community permanently cut into half in both countries.So they decided to clear east Punjab of Muslims so that west Punjabi Sikhs could be brought and settled in there.Naturally Muslims followed suit and cleared West Punjab of Sikhs and Hindus to make room for East Punjabi Muslims. -
come on stop putting your words in my mouth.I said that Pakistanis don't know him not because of some discrimination but because that our people rarely study about different religions.I won't expect an average Indian Sikh to know about some companion of Prophet.Just like you can't expect an average Pakistani to know the name of companions of Sikh gurus.
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I have never said that caste system does not exist in Muslims.It's a reality of south Asia.To whichever religion these dalits convert to , they still face discrimination whether they convert to islam ,christinaity,sikhism. I never denied that .I made a point to those who were criticizing others for caste system that their people are doing that exact same thing which seems to have triggered some of them.
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Emotional attachment.It's been centuries since we converted to Islam.I would prefer to stay this way. Like I said south asian islam is differnt from arab iranian turkish islam.But yes we do have some aspects of Arab culture visible in Pakistan which should not be a surprise as Islam was created by an Arab.Just like some convert Sikhs from western backgrounds will like Sikh Punjabi culture.Some even changed their western names to Sikh Indian names.So,yes when a religion is developed/created by some ethnic group it will definitely have impact on it and this impact will be visible wherever that religion goes.
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Never claimed to be egalitarian.Caste system in a reality in south Asia.Nobdoy denies that.It's you people who criticize hindus and muslims for caste system yet turn a blind eye towards the caste system in your own community. And I would like to see your upper castes marry your daughters to Sikh low caste.Like I said countless times that you should not throw stones when you live in a glass house.Let me know when you have all finished caste system in your own community then we will talk about ours. It was new to me.My experience is based on Pakistani mosques where i did not witness any of caste discrimination.Here is one video showing discrimination of sikh dalits.
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Existence of caste based gurudwaras says otherwise.Why we hear about dalit sikh facing discimination in gurudwaras ?.Tell me when was the last time you heard about lower caste Muslims denied entry into Mosque ?
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Nah I said what i meant.Read it again.Islam has a history of 1000 years in Sub continent.South Asian Islam is way different than Arab,Turkish islam. You speak as if you have done survey of 300 million Arabs.Besides I don't care how someone else view me.You should be worried about the discrimination your mazhabi sikh face in punjab. Muslims should be least of your worries.
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Actually I have read his book bloodied partition.Rawalpindi massacre started in March 1947.And before that there were sikh/muslim tensions in punjab.Remeber Shahedganj Gurudwara controversy in Lahore in 1935.Now Muslim refugees started to come into Pakistan in mid august.This clearly shows that Sikh leadership had this plan to get rid of Muslims of East Punjab all along.Otherwise I don't see why they waited for 5 months to take revenge of Rawalpindi massacre.If all the Sikh attacks in East Punjab were mere revenge attacks for Rawalpindi massacres then these attacks should have been spontaneous.Why wait for 5 months ? As you know these revenge attack/riot happen at the spur of moment you don't wait around months to take revenge.This clearly shows that Sikh leadership had made up their mind to exterminate Muslims of East Punjab. Rawalpindi massacre just gave them excuse they were looking for.I have no doubt that with or without Rawalpindi massacres Muslims would have met the same fate. Because they were living in a State ruled by a Muslim nawab. Plus they were well armed compared to Muslims in Sikh states who were sitting ducks.Nawab of malerkotla had good relations with Sikh ruler of Patiala .Then there was old history i.e haa da naara by sher khan.So all these factors saved their lives.Sikhs jathas must have thought that once the rest of East Punjab is emptied of Muslims these muslims will also migrate. Even Muslims of different sects are not safe.The less is said about the plight of other non Muslim minorities is better.I hope someday this madness will end.
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Come on man he was not an ordinary man.He was Sikh leader of that time who negotiated with British,Congress and Muslim League on behalf of Sikhs. Like I said before nobody knows him in Pakistan apart from some people like myself who are interested in Sikhs.
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This requires a detail discussion and I won't be able to do justice with this topic as I have to work on my presentation.I will get back to you tomorrow.
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Only if Paul A. Brass is Pakistani.here is an excerpt from his article In February 1967, however, Master Tara Singh, whom I interviewed then and who was the principal political leader of the Sikh community 20 years earlier, said to me in words I have never forgotten: “We took the decision to turn the Muslims out.” By this, he meant the decision to attack violently the Muslim population in East Punjab to force them to migrate west so that the entire Sikh population in West Punjab would be able to migrate east to replace them and take their lands and property in exchange for what they would lose in the west. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/77f1/d2b9735df0283aa1f3af94eafa6ae701d7e4.pdf The partition of India and retributive genocide in the Punjab, 1946–47: means, methods, and purposes
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Most Muslims don't read Quran with translation.So I doubt that their actions are directed by Quran.Most have no idea what is written in it.Quran is just kept some high shelve in most houses.Very few people read it with translation. Besides Quran also prohibits Muslims from consuming Alcohol and also frobids from doing other things but I see people don't care.Discrimination is discrimination whether it is backed by holy book or not. You can sugarcoat it all you want but it does not change the fact dalits are mistreated in your state.Some dalits When you can't give equality to you own mazhabi sikhs then all this talk about helping others seems hypocrisy. Nobody knows about him in Pakistan let alone calling him names. Well I may not believe in religious tenets of Islam but I do see myself as cultural Muslim. nope it was created to escape the economic domination of hindus and Sikhs. Mullah were against the creation of Paskitan. These idiots thought that they could convert/take over all of Hindustan without realizing that if centuries of Muslim rule did not make it Muslim majority how will you do it in a democratic Hindustan where you will be junior partner in power. The man leading Muslim league wasn't a bit religious.
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As far as riots of partition are concerned. You people were just looking for an excuse.Tara Singh stated in one of his interviews in 1967 that they (the sikhs) had taken the decision to wipe out Muslims from east Punjab so that Sikhs from West Punjab can be brought to settle in East Punjab.So Sikh leadership all along had made up their mind to massacre East Punjabi Muslims and drive them out.So you see your people are not an innocent party here.
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I pointed out the hypocrisy of some members who love to discuss the discrimination happening in Muslim World but refuse to look back in their own backyard.I merely stated that pehle apni manji thallay daang phero. Poor people whether sikh,hindu,muslim or christian tend to be very religious.There is no doubt about that. Islam, Sikhism ,Christianity all say that no body should be discriminated on the basis of caste (at least that is what i have heard) but people rarely follow this teaching and Before telling me how dalits are mistreated by Hindus and Muslims have a look at their miserable condition in Punjab.Have you given them equal respect that you are taunting Muslims and Hindus ? I watched a video a year ago where dalits were refused entry into a Gurudwara in Punjab.Take care of that first. And yes Muhammad and few other Arabs created Islam and since then rest of arbas,turk,south asian, indonesian muslims are following it.Of course you can't expect every other ethnic group to play a role in the creation of Islam.And yes forced conversion did took place under some muslim kings.Auranzeb is the prominent name I can recall but you people just turn a blind eye to all those muslim babas whose tombs can be seen in almost every city/town in south asia.What do you think that people like Sheikh Rukn-ud-Din Abul Fateh of Multan and Ali Hajveri of lahore , Lal Shahbaz Qalandar of Sehwan,Sindh and Abullah Shah Ghazi of Karachi doing here ?? Selling popcorn ? .Whatever the case may be ,we are happy where we are .Get over it. Some slaves created big muslim empires in india and middle east i.e mamluks.But i would be fool to assume that every slave had the same opportunity or easy life.Perhaps if you dig deeper may be even Hindus can come up with some Dalit in history who achieved a greater social status.But that would be an exception.
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Well I haven't met any Jutt who claims Arab ancestry . I live Pakistan and my experience is different from you. In fact I had a Jutt warraich teacher in my high school. In one of his lectures he did mention about his Hindu ancestry. He wasn't ashamed of his Hindu ancestors. None of my friends from other castes claim Arab ancestry. Apart from syed and qureshi castes no one I know who claim Arab ancestry. But yes you're are right about some people fabricating their family trees especially fake syeds. A lot of people have fabricated their family trees to make it look like that they are syeds . As syeds being descendent of Muhammad enjoy a privileged position in society so people changed their caste to syed in 18th or 19th century. Today it is not easy to deceive ppl.
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Thanks for at least admitting the truth. Some Indians like to mock far away ethnic groups without looking at their own backyard. I think Indians should be the last people on earth to criticize others for discrimination when they practice worst form of discrimination to their fellow citizens i.e Dalits. Indian should end this holier than thou attitude when they have so much going on in their own home.
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Yes some people do but not all that's why I used 'average' word. All the big castes like Jutts, Raj puts,Gujjars etc don't claim Arab heritage. Some small castes do. And yes there have been migration from Arabia Iran and central Asia so definitely some people can claim their ancestory from them but not all of them. But some Indian I have encountered on Facebook have this habit of picking some random guy or small caste in Pakistan which claims to be from outside South Asia and then made sweeping statements like see these paki deny their Hindu roots. It's not good to Generalize a nation of 200 million on the claims of some small castes who would probably won't make 2 %
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Only glory an average Muslim in South Asia seek through Islam is that he is happy to be born into "only true religion" of the world.
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It's good thing to have your people at powerful positions. This might come in handy someday for Khalistani Sikhs when opportunity arises for Sikh State in Punjab.
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hmm what kind of tendency do you see in Dalit or other low caste Sikhs in Punjab ? Do they take as much pride in Sikhi as Jutts ? The way i see things,Jutts are at the top of Sikh pecking order in Punjab. Rest of low caste Sikhs are just there to maintain dwindling majority status.What do you say ?
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Like I said in my previous posts that those few liberal Muslims in west don't have much impact on their respective ethnic groups as a matter of fact they are nothing more than piss in the ocean.It would be wrong to paint the whole ethnic group with same brush that too based on few token liberal/Atheist Muslims living in Europe.If you wanna know how much they take religion seriously.Just see all those footage of Protests in Lebanon,Turkey, and Russian states like Chechnya ,Tatarstan where thousands of Muslims took to streets to protest against 2012 anti Islam movie.If they had been as liberal as those liberal Muslims in west they would have stayed in their homes.Look up the images of t shirt wearing Lebanese girls participating in Hezbollah rallies in Lebanon. If burka clad women have been participating in these procession/rallies it would have made sense.But all these girls seems from young liberal families which is evident from their dressing. Case of Chechen and Tatar Muslims of Russia is interesting. They had lived under communist rule for more than 8 decades but it did not have big effect on their attachment on religion. Chechen also came in large numbers on streets to protest on charlie hebdo cartoons in 2015.
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European take pride in pre Christian European history but due to some mysterious reasons we South Asian Muslims are not taught about our pre Islamic past. Historic figures such as King Porus merely get any mention in our text books. We are not taught about Indus Valley civilization or about pre Islamic Indian culture. Since hatred between Hindus and Muslim is so strong we hate everything associated with them. So it would be wrong to say that we don't have any rich pre Islamic past. We have as much claim on pre Islamic civilization of India as Hindus or other people living in India. It's just that we don't care about it and deliberately ignore it due to Hindu Muslim schism. Perhaps if entire India had converted to Islam we might not had this attitude towards pre Islamic Indian civilizations. Just like when entire Europe converted to Christianity. They get to keep their pre Christian heroes. Same thing in Indonesia. If 1/3 of Europe had converted to Christianity and rest of them stayed loyal to natives European religions. European Christians might have same attitude towards their pre Christian past as South Asian Muslims do towards old sub continent civilizations.Since Europeans are all Christians and Indonesians are almost all Muslims and they don't have any of rival group living among them so they don't have to disown their old culture.We South Asian Muslims and Hindus have rivalry or mutual hatred so naturally we would be cautious to own our pre Islamic Indian cultural civilizations.And there may be a factor of assimilation to Hindusim.Had we not insisted so much on our otherness we might have ended up being reabsorbed into Hinduism. Much like how some people on this forum have aversion to anything Sanskrit or old Indian civilization.There everything starts with Sikhi 500 years ago.They are not much interested beyond that.
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True every one considers himself chaudhry in Islamic world perhaps it's true for whole world Hahahahah cracked me up. Bro, you really have got a way with words.
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@Tejs sorry bro for hijacking your thread. Every time I comment on some thread I divert the topic that's why most of time I silently observe without commenting
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Wasn't he an Afghan? Anyways Muslims killing each other nothing new. Every ruler who killed people of other sect did so in the name of Islam lol its not like that all we have done is kill each other in last 1400 years. Most of these 1400 years we lived in peace. There have been three phases of Muslims killing Muslims. First was right after the death of Muhammad when thousands of Muslims died in wars of 4th caliph Ali and Ayesha the wife of Muhammad. But later on in order to avoid more bloodshed among Muslims Hassan the son of Ali reconciled with Mavia another contender of leadership of Muslim world. Then in in 1500's Ottoman and Sadavid Iran fought bloody battles. Many Muslims died in these wars. Then the third phase started with Iraq and Syria war. Though most Muslims put the blame on West for the the mess in middle east which is true to some extent but I think we Muslims are not innocent party either. It was started when that <banned word filter activated> bin Laden decided to blow up two American buildings. We destroyed their two buildings and killed a few thousand of them but they came back destroyed two of our countries made millions homeless. Bin Laden is solely responsible for their plight, if there is any Hell he must have been burning in it. Gosh!! I get so emotional sometimes and lose track of real topic. Lol