jagjit_waheguru

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, you asked for an example of a karkoo singh at the times of the Gurus? OK, lets take Bhai Biddhi Chand ji. Did he not go into his aatmik saroop and attack the Moghul emporer? Did he not go and bring back Guru jis horses? he like all gursikhs did seva with mercy and compassion.

You keep implying that Singhs did mindless acts similar to Alqieda style today. I disagree. I ask you to name when Bhai fauja Singh, sant Jarnial Singh and Bhai Sukhdev Singh did sangarsh against the rules set by Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji? Name an incident veer ji?

Yes bombs were blasted in Punjab in marketplaces, but who were blasting them? It certainly was not Singhs. Singhs like karam Singh babbar were bringing those to justice who were doing this, they were black cats. Singh did bombs to kill Beanta, Gobind ram, and those who planned the Delhi roits. They did not bomb innocent punjabis in marketplaces. These were done by those who wanted to give the Singhs a bad name.

I perfectly accept that Gursikhs should do sangarsh with assols. What I am saying is that the significant number of them did. They should not have to apologise for the wrong acts of punjab police, Indian army and black cats. That is rediculous.

I suggest you take time and actually read about the jeevans of the Singh who are criticizing. Or do abyass and have darshan of them.

Further veer ji, if you think they wre not worthy, then there is nothing stopping you showing how it should be done. KPS GIll is still alive, unless you consider him a man of peace?

The Singhs did not talk of internet boards, they did the seva, took the torture and gave thier shaheedi. Veer ji, do what it takes, it not that easy is it? But do not just talk about it in a patronising manner.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.s. veer ji, I believe punjab trauma was set up by Punjab Police themselves. They have numerous sites. Including a martyrs gallery, where the murderous rapists like Gobind ram are eulogised. Check who makes the sites before, or who funds them before you believe everything you read on them. Just like many Indian army generals have written book on Operation bluestar... Try and be more intelligent that to be a mouthpiece of propoganda for punjab police. Did you take time out while on the site, to ask why punjab police were not acting like a civilised police force, and what steps they have taken to stop corruption, murder, rape, torture, humiliation, false case, false encounters, mass graves, or is your time just for asking accountability from Singhs? If we search the truth, then you have investigate all of that, and work to bring them to justice.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I have nothing against Osho. Maybe throughout his life he will have achieved more than I can dream.

However when we compare him to our Guru sahibaan that is a completely different matter.

He lived no life comparable to Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji. His writings do not compare to bani.

He made no composition on par with Sukhmani of Sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev Ji. He wrote nothing on par to Jaap sahib of Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji. Compare his life to any of our Guru sahibaan.

In todays world it is not hard to find the truth. many people have taken all the Spiritual texts of the owrld to increase their wisdom and do what they believe is good. Especailly since Gurbani became pargat, this has happened more. Look at Nirankaris, radhe Swamis, Noormaalian, Namdharis, etc. they have build their whole movemnts purely on the basis of using gurbani for thier benefit.

Osho was far more intelligent than any of them. But lets take just one saying from sahib Siri Guru nanak dev Ji - Truth is higher, but higher is Truthful Living.

A true mark of a man is his truthful living, and we can judge this by their legacy.

Think about the Legacy of sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev Ji? We have the other 9 Guru sahibaan, Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, 400 years of Sikh history bathed in Seva, Simran and Sacrifice. Gurbani is revered throughout the world, with millions following and respecting the Bani, covering it with Rumallas and bowing to it.

What is the Legacy and history of Osho and his followers? Are his writings held in the same esteem as Gurbani?

Then consider the statement that was made and judge for yourself. Is he really comparable to Guru sahibaan? can he really judge them? Is there not ego in that statement?

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, Just a quick response to your question, before I have to get back to doing some work.

Guru kian Sakkian are very important for sikhs to understand. Many of us the next generation, have more knowledge on modern Gursikhs like Sant jarnial singh, Bhai sahib randhir Singh, baba nand Singh, and others than we have about our Gurus. This is a worrying trend. Also not only should we know about Guru kian Sakian, but we have to dig into them and understand the deeper meaning.

We have to understand what really happened to the Guru Sahibaan. The policies they adopted, and the policies that were adopted against them. So go beyond the wonderful stories that we hear all the time. But also question why?

Why was Sahib Siri Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji refused access to Darbar Sahib?

Why was he shot in the eye?

Why then throughout his life did he never return to Amritsar?

Why was Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh born at Patna Sahib and not darbar Sahib?

Why did Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji reject Siri Chand for Bhai lehna?

Why did sahib Siri Guru Angad dev ji accept Sahib Guru Amar das ji and not Datu?

Why was Sahib Siri Guru Amar Das ji kicked?

When sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji created a begumpura, why did they not last?

Who helped Prithvi Chand against Sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji?

Why when sahib Siri Arjan dev Ji dictated the sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, was it not given to Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh, and instead he had to dictate it again?

Who conspired with the Mughuls to have wars with Sahib Siri Guru HarGobind Sahib ji?

What was happening to all the Sikh literature during these times?

What was happening to the Sikh institutions at these times?

Who was controlling Nanakana Sahib, and other sikh institutions while all these things were happening to Our Gurus?

Why did sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji go to Machiwaara and not to Amritsar, Nanakana sahib, etc?

All these forces that opposed Guru Sahibaan due to not been given Guru ships and various times, how did they all come together and control sikh institutions and push our Gurus to new places?

Who was benefitting froms the money, power and gifts sent from far off sikhs to these Sikh Gurdwaras? Why were they not given to the Gurus?

Why is it that the tat Khalsa throughout Guru ki History were being shaheeds, but where were those who now claim to be decsendants?

How did we get to a situation at baba Bakala where there 22+ people claiming to be the next Guru? Who were they and where did they come from?

There are so many things in just this part of history that we need to think about. Even before we go on to later history. Just because people say, we are this descendancy or that, we accept, without looking did Guru ji accept them? Fundamentally that in itself is such a huge question? What was there role? Are they following Guru ke Hukam, and Bani, or just using connection to live of Sikh institutions, history, with very dubious roles at the times of Guru ji and after.

These things are rarely discussed, because you have to think deeper, and research harder. It is very easy to just say, he lived at the Time of the Gurus, so he is part of the Panth, and can use his link to live of sikhs, no matter if he follows Gurbani or Guru ke rehit. Are we going to accept the descendants of Gangu Brahmin? he also lived at the times of the Gurus, and has descendants today aswell.

The Guru house is always open and welcoming, but Guru ji himself put Assols in place, that we as Sikh live by. I would ask Sikhs to really read carefully Guru Kian Saakian, and learn from them and understand exacly what happened to the Gurus, and the message of the Bhana.

Recently a talk was done at Khalsa talks in Birmingham by Dr Dapinder Singh called Internal and external threats to The Gurus during their time. It was very good, and fully backed up with facts. It was recorded and hopefuly will be on the net soon.

But I humbly do a benti to all Sikhs. Think about what is happening. Our Guru Sahibaan were not blind. So we as Sikhs cannot be blind and follow blindly. Understand what happened to our Gurus, because them forces still exist today. Akaal gave us every lesson in Guru Kian sakkian and the gift of Gurbani. All the answers are in there. We really need to study and learn. It is vitally important especially today. Read what our Gurus wrote and what they did.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Well said JSS Jee!!! Agree completely with everything you said.

Just a question I wanted to raise regarding the Mahants - I always thought that the Mahants were Udassis, and not Nirmallas? Is there are any source to say that that the Mahants included Nirmallas as well?

If there were Nirmallas that were Mahants, then obviously they did bad things. No-one will justify their actions. BUT that does not mean that all Nirmallas were bad. Some Nirmallas made great contributions to the Panth, and carried out vast Amrit Sanchaar smaagams. It would be wrong of us to paint everyone with the same brush.

Similarly, if someone calling himself a Taksali or Babbar committed an atrocity in the post-84 period on innocents, then that does not mean all Taksalis or Babbars were bad ... cos a true Saint-Soldier does not carry out such acts.

It's not simply a black or white issue, where a whole Jatha or Group can be labelled as bad or anti-Panthic.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

136586[/snapback]

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I have started a poll thread.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?act=ST&f=14&t=15473&st=

I have no interest in getting involved in a conversation that leads in an exchange of vikaars, that is un-befitting of any Gursikh. The problem when debating with veer namstang, is that he says alot but cannot back anything up with facts.

Admin - Apologies for going off-subject, but the whole agenda of Nirmaals, uddasis is linked to the agenda behind defamation of khalistanis/shaheeds. I am sure you realise that. I do humbly ask you to consider between your team, to insist on facts when people make accusation. Especially when you have subjects like Shaheeds, these are very serious, and not something that should be taken lightly. If any of you have darshan of a Shaheed Singhs, then you will know what I mean.

Veer ji, makes numerous allegations, and I am quite happy to debate. I am also happy to debate issues with sampardayas, and even his long standing prejudice with Panthic groups like akj and the issues around it.

But do it with sincerity and facts. There is little point in having a debate, if you will only end up making snide remarks, or exchanging in Vikkars. I have no interest in doing that, because what kind of Gursikhs are we if we do. Everyday I analyse my actions in terms of vikaars, and the last place i expect to have them them, such as traits of frustration, tinged with slight anger, is in sangat. To maintain sehaj at all times, is so important for every Gursikh.

So the issue of Shaheeds, I leave to the sangat in the poll. If veer namstang wishs to honestly debate any of his predjudices or beliefs in sampradaya, and it willing to do it with facts and sincerity, then he is most welcome.

Also veer ji, on the poll, I have presented my viewpoint, please fell welcome to present yours aswell.

waheguru j kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, When I first read the initial post by Veer namstang in the thread

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?act=Po...02&f=14&t=15251

"i am willing to be a khalistani", I initially just ignored it. I usually skim through titles and only read a handful of threads from which I am interested or inspired by. So when I read this, I just though what a waste of time. You are either a khalistani or not depending on your heart and love for the Panth.

However the manner in which it was written implied grave accusations upon those who did seva. This stuck in my mind. Although I ignored it initially, over the day I kept thinking about those shaheed Gursikhs. If all of them were still alive today the Panth would be such an amazing place. When someone walked that path, whether Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, and the thousands who walked with their heads in their hands, as per Guru jis hukam, they knew the end, yet the never thought to turn their back on their Guru.

The path on which they walked, they accepted it knowing that we Guru khalsa Panth is there to look after their families and children. They relied on us. Yes, the panth has done alot, many of their families are now abroad and looked after. However can we honestly say with our hands on our hearts, that we have done enough?

Personally, I think NO. Compared to what they did for us, what have been able to do for them. We still hear ninda of people calling Sant Jarnial singh a terrorist. We still have done little for the Delhi riot victims. There are still hundreds of Shaheed families children who still need to be married and set up.

Thinking this in my mind, I felt hurt. Hurt because we have not yet as a Panth still been able to fulfill our part of that bargian. They gave their all, yet we gave so little. You know when someone does ninda of someone close to you, inside your attma feels hurt. Consider double that when someone does ninda of a shaheed. There is no your shaheed, mine shaheed. A shaheed is a shaheed, and they all belong to the Panth. They are such special souls.

So today when people speak of them. They cannot speak back. The least we can do is speak for them. Hence after a day or two I responded to Namstang. I asked him to provide accountabilty for his messageboard seva, and compared it to the accountability that he asks for on such a huge scale.

Veer namstang, who I think is an intelligent young man, it is such a shame he has some personality traits that let him down sometimes. He has lost some family to an incident. Similarly there are probably very few of us here, who have not lost family. Such were the times. I lost family aswell. However veer ji, can no way 100% say that they were killed by Singhs, and not by black cats, police stooges, or even police dressed as Singhs. So can we make judgement without facts? Can we condemn without facts?

I further asked veer ji, from the last 28 years, (1978-2006) to name just one incident in which Singhs killed innocents. Is there a sikh equivalent of vaisakhi 1978, Kanpur 1978, Operation Blue star, Operation Woodrose, Delhi Riots, Kanpur Riots, genocide in Punjab, rape of women, killing on children, 5 years old children jailed under TADA, Godhra riots, etc. can you name even one incident in which you can 100% say sikhs brought genocide, rioting, rape? Name one hindu women throughout that period who was raped by Singhs? Name the Singhs responsible? Fundamentally we have to accept that for everything that happened against Sikhs, sikhs only fought and punished those who commited crimes against us.

Alot of bad things happened during the last 20 years, but that was not done by Singhs. They knew their mission, and that killing of innocents was against it. Singhs did not bad things. However bad people adopted a Sikh roop to give it a bad name, i.e. nihang phulla Ajit for example. These were balcak cats, police stooges who did crimes in conjunction with the police. We all know that.

So when veer ji asks for accountability, I ask him name one incident in which you can name any prominent Singh, and say he killed an innocent?

More seriously when veer ji asks for apologies. I personally think, it is us who need to apologise to the Shaheeds for not doing enough, and we have no right to ask them to apologise to us for doing Seva.

I for one, am proud of our Shaheeds, and and am definately not embarassed by them. When I see their pictures in Gurdwaras, I am pround that such sikhs existed in modern times.

Veer namstang is more than welcome to present his side. Then it is up to the sangat, to decide via the poll, Should Shaheed Singhs apologise for their Shaheedian or Seva?

I am very surprised, I even have to ask it, but it seem today we have people who question them.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, when I speak of Nirmallas, udassis being rejected from the Panth, I speak of incidents in history such as Nankana sahib Saka. The whole Gurdwara Reform movement was to take our Gurdwaras out of the hands of British backed Nirmalas, udassies, etc, who were also called mahants.

Surely you cannot just ignore such a major part of history, and just pretend it did not happen. From the time of Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji, the udasis started by Siri Chand have tried to divert sikhism. He may have been forgiven later by other Guru ji sahibaan, but then during the times of the Moghuls, and british, and now aswell they conspire to control sikh institutions. All sikh reform movements have always opposed them.

There is no akj Panth. If you wish to start topics, then have a proper sensible debate, without making silly comments. There is only one Guru Khalsa Panth.

Do you honestly believe just by name dropping Taksal to justify the existence of Udassies and Niramallas, is going to start all Gursikhs on this forum to start on me, then you must be mistaken.

Are you currently now saying that Niramalla 100% believe in Amrit, and there is not one nirmallas who is not Amritdhari, and none of them state that taking Amrit is not important. Are you saying that every nirmallas is 5 kakkaar? Are you saying every nirmalla adheres 100% accepting the Siri Akal Thakht rehit maryada as its minimum level of rehit?

When I met jathedar joginder Singh ji, he said his background was with taksal, and spent years studying Gurbani with Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara. He made no mention of any nirmala to me.

As I said before. I am sorry for your loss. I have also lost family in the 80s. My great grandfather was also a Babbar Akhali who was hanged by the British, for do seva of them and police touts, namely nirmallas and udassies.

I once again ask you to consider that those who killed your family. Where they Shaheed singhs, or possibly police touts, black cats, dressed as Singhs set to defame a movement? Every Khalistani knew killing innocents was against their movement. So I once again say to you present proof if you are going to make the accusations? I do not see why any taksal and akj singh should apologise for anything that they have not been involved in.

Lastly veer ji, I have no interest in writing this stuff. It is of no spiritual benefit to me at all. However you have spent too much time making accusations, snide remarks, and general misinformation. I am just asking you back up your comments with facts.

SOLUTION - just accept in the past you may have made comments that were unjusitified or defaming. You do not need to apologise. Then try and not do it again. Then we can just forget the past, and share each other virtues as Gursikhs.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kek fateh

Admin Note - Stick to the topic. Or start a new topic to discuss Nirmalas and Udasis.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, with all due respect to all the Gursikhs on this forum. I would advise you to put your questions on www.tapoban.org messageboard aswell. Purely because there are Gursikhs on there who are knowedgable on gurbani grammer, more than proably here.

As far as you questions, most have been answered. But I would point some things out.

We have no slave mentality to Gurbani abyass. A slave is forced to do something with no return or personal gain. Doing abyass of Gurbani is about praising and sharing the virtues of Waheguru. By seva and simran, one reduces our negative virtues, and expands our positive virtues. This takes us and humanity closer waheguru. Hence there is an exchange, but the benefit is to us, not waheguru as he is beyond that. Neither is Sikhism about bargaining or points sytems. This bargain in the House of nanak is a Saccha Suada, (true bargian) one in which we as souls benefit.

Pyare jio, I have mentioned before to you, that evil does not exist in sikhi. We do not accept the concept of evil. Instead we accept the concept of Bhana and 5 vikaars.

Our lives are a play, in which we play various roles, while being the same soul. We can be a husband, an father, a son, a villian, a hero, a wise man and a fool. Throughout this life, our aim is to break the cycle of life and death, and to share the virtues of Akaal with ourselves, and then with humanity.

God did not create us, because he has an ego and wants us to praise him all the time. We are really not praising him as such, but his virtues, and sharing them. Waheguru is beyond praise and ego. Neither does he need us to sustain him, but we need him to sustain us.

Where I think you are making a mistake in understanding this. You are considering God and humanity as separate entities. But Waheguru is in humanity and everything else. "ram naam, sabh hai ram nama".

So how can waheguru and humanity be opposite. They are one and the same.

I hope this makes sense. If not please question further.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, completely agree with the posters above. bani is here. If Guru ji did come back, he would not say anything, which we have not already got in Gurbani.

If is not Guru jis physical roop that we need, it is that we need to follow Gurbani more sincerely.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, just repoding to your points below. Hope you take it with the sehaj in which it was written.

You once again rave about your misguided sense of history. The majority of the Sikhs were fighting in the jungles, and were hunted with prices on their heads. Clearly the majority of the Sikh nation does follow the Akal thakht rehit maryada, or a jatha which is under it. Rejection of nirmallas, udasis, etc is widespread in the Panth. History is testiment to the fact they were active with Anti-sikh forces from the times of the Gurus, to modern day. Their personal interests have always been threatened by a strong Khalsa Panth.

I see no difference between Baba Deep singh or Bhai Randhir singh, Baba Gurbaksh singh or Baba kharak Singh. They were all inspired purely by Gurbani and dedicated to the Khalsa Panth. They were all Tat Khalsas. Your whole theories of Bhausauria sikhi, Amritsar sikhi, snatan sikhi,is complete rubbish. Bhausauria has his views, whic were dealt with by the Akal Thakht sahib. He had no influence on the scale which you guys make out. You just link his name to mainstream sikh thought to justify the existence of these so-called sampardas. Then just add Damdami taksal, to give it some legitamacy. But no matter what, if people have not taken Amrit, do not do ishnan, do not believe in Amrit. When this is so clearly against gurbani, how can they be accepted as mainstream sikhs? The Akal Thakht does not accept them so why should we? How are they any different to bhausaria?

Plus there is no AKJ gatkha, Taksal gathka, etc. There is just gaktha or shaster vidya.

Plus why is it when we get to the nitty gritty of facts,. You seem to disappear again. Veer ji, if you canot back up your theories by facts, then do not keep ranting on about your theories. I specifically asked you to from 25 years of history to name me one prominemnt Gursikh, Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh, Bhai Sukhdev Singh babbar, , etc who killed any innocent through blind rage? Pyare veer ji, you started this thread, so now please back it up with facts?

Once again veer ji, when I ask to justify your mirch massal comment, you fail agian miserably to provide facts to back up your comments. I take offence that you are making such comments aginst Bhai Tarlocahn singh, a widely respected scholar of the Singh sabha Movemnt, and Veer harpreet Singhs father. So veer ji either re-tract or accept you do spread mis-information in an intentional manner to cause doubt in those innocent minds who come to learn.

Lastly veer ji, I often find those who complain about tunnel vision, i.e. neo-nihangs, snatanists, and unlabelled like yourself, often suffer from the same symptons. You all complain about predjudice, but you are the first to condemn Khalistanis, singh sabhas, or anyone who does not accept your interpretation of history. In the past, many Gursikhs, including muyself just ignored these rants, but so often they have passed the realm of truth so much that no longer can we just ignore them, without asking you to back them up with facts. Like I said before, I no enmity to you, but do ask you to at least try and stick within the realms of truth.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Gurfateh Jagjit Singh,

Signifcant majority of Sikhs don't agree sampardhai parchar of Sikhi or as you grossly generalize as easy Sikhi? Where did you get this number? May be you got this number by looking at forgein sikhs in forgein countries who either follow new age sikhi or follow tat khalsa Amristar singh sabha, bhausari singh sabha sikhi. Tat Khalsa got it's support 80-90 years ago. Before that only parchar which was done for 180 some years was via Sampardha's. Great warriors, scholars, saints, Matyrs like- baba deep singh ji, baba gurbakash singh ji, baba sahib singh ji bedi, baba bir singh ji nurangabad, baba maharaj singh ji, baba sahib singh ji kaladari, baba hanuman singh ji and many more. when they did seva, they did seva by rising above from their sampardha's they belong to and they did seva for Khalsa Panth but you cannot ignore these great people got their vidya from instituations(sampardha's) that Guru's created. Just how when we talk about shaheed bhai sahib fauja singh ji.. you cannot ignore the fact shaheed bhai sahib bhai fauja singh ji was inspired by akj jatha.

No young khalistani on here I don't think have killed any innocent but my questions is not if they killed an innocent or not but my questions are quite clear- If they were to become leaders - -what actions will they take as a leader against self proclaimed khalistan freedom fighter who across the line and become ruthless murders of innocent person in course of making khalistan because of unjustified offence caused by blind hatred? three choices were wrong in the orginal post.

I would rather not to waste my further time going through forums. As i already told you, it's not the poster or hate monger or fanatic I have issues with, I have issues with ideology and methodology that new age sikhs and tat khalsa amritsar singh sabha, bhausaria singh sabha's follows

But please try and be factual, rather than ranting. Let me remind you of a few threads.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15293&hl=

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=14906&hl=

Please re-read what i posted: I posted:

read bhai sahib orginal texts in punjabi. I wouldn't trust english translations..lot of chelas of sant, bhai sahib, baba in general have tendency of adding lot of "mirch masala" in course of translating.

That was general comment rather than specific type of comment targetting against english works/translations of bhai sahib randhir singh ji by premi singhs.

I understand if you had some bad experience with some strict sikhs. I have had some, and others may have aswell. But I do not thing having a vendetta against strict sikhs just because they do not except easy sikhi, with kissing, and the rest is the answer. Just try to understand, why you have such issues.

I have bad expereince with ideologies whether it's tunnel visioned or very laxed one and it's context. I have no issues with any sikh.

Also consider this as my last post. I am sorry to go off-topic but i felt i needed to clarify myself. Thanks for everyone who understood the relevance of dharam yudh rules by sri dasmesh pita ji and my questions and answer them honestly.

Gurfateh Ji

136044[/snapback]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I am sorry for your loss. I have just had a baby girl only a few months old. It is so easy to get attached to a child...

Your questions:

I was told by the hospital that they will arrange the funeral, i know as a Sikh we must be creamated, but the hospital contacted a gyani at the local gudwara who said because she is still born, upto a certain age a baby can be buried..what does everyone think?

Sikhs are cremated because we do not give importance to the body with is a vessel only to a soul. The soul has already left. Ideally cremate, or your parents allow, allow the body to help other young children who may be somehow lacking. Itis your choice.

I know she is with god, but for how long?

She always was with God, and always will be. She came to do 9 months of kamai in your womb. All souls slowly work their way to Sachkhand.

Does she have to pass a time to stay in heaven? Will she get older, like year by year or will she stay a baby?

Only a vessel has age. A soul has no size or age. it is like a spirit. Our spirit form goes to Akaal. When you pass away, you also will go as a soul, not as a young adult.

Will she come back to me?

All souls are interlinked. If her next life, or your next live, I am sure you will be interlinked again.

Will she be watching me?

God watches over everyone. She as a soul will be interlinked to you, but only souls that merge with God, by breaking through the cycle of life and death watch over people. Be assured, she is in a far batter place than all of us. For that we should never be unhappy.

Will she be with my family, who have passed?

All souls are interlinked. The world beyond is not like Earth. No one is left alone, no one is lonely, and no one is unhappy.

It is very easy saying we should not be unhappy or less attached. Grieving is a natural process. Let me just share with you a story. There is a very Spiritual Gursikh in India called Puran ji. I am not sure what his real name is , but Bhai sahib Randhir Singh called him Puran when they met, and that name has stuck with him since. Puran means someone who has complete spirituality. He had two sons, who had just been engaged to marry. Both were very special Gursikhs.

One day coming back from a keertan smagam, both were involved in an accident. There motorbike was hit and they both died. Bhai Puran Singh was coming in a car behind with other Gursikhs. They saw the accident, and saw the bodies covered in white sheets. They did not know who they bodies were. Out of compassion, Bhai sahib got out of thier car, and did ardas for the deceased. Only when they got home, did they realise, them two bodies were their only two boys. His wife was naturally very upset. Bhai sahib just silently went to the Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib and said " Waheguru ji, what was yours you have taken". He did ardas.

It is easy to say, but difficult to do. Remember the child was a blessing for Waheguru. Now that is where the child has gone. The child was perfect when it came, and has gone back perfect with 9 months of Spiritual meditation in your womb. The child has gone to Waheguru in an amazing spiritual form. Please do not be sad, but be happy that they child was so blessed. In the next days, just do ardas for that soul, and for those around you. Try and maintain a state of Sehaj ( poise) and be strong for those around you.

Nothing bad has happened to that child. It is in a far better place than any of us.

You will have another child. There is no reason, why the same soul does not come back. Everything is in the hands of Waheguru.....

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, this is an almost indentical to the reply letter he sent to me, about my email to him over the incident, using faxyourmp.com.

It is probably a general letter being sent to everyone. I do not think he should really be blamed for the clear stupidity of the Punjabis who ran the Gurdwara at the time.

What is not yet clear. So if sangat can please clarify?

Has the Gurdwara committee been changed, or are the same people running it?

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, clearly veer ji , you have a number of issues with a number of people on a number of issues. I think at some point you have to accept that there is a significant majority of sikhs that do not agree with you on a number of subjects. Why do you wish to force them to do so, by saying if they do not, then they are doing "twisted parchaar".

In my experience, I have seen alot of very lax Sikhs, and some very strict ones. I am sort of in the middle, a person who tries to concentrate on the simple and important things and tries to get them right. Sometimes I have seen strict singhs do things that I found strange, unnecessary and wrong. But I seen lax singhs do things that I find icomprehensible.

I think I would rather see my sangat as people who are strict with some assols (principles) than Sikhs going to gigs, having girlfriends, drinking booze, eating meat, and doing all this in bana.

I also notice that you have been unable to stick the subject about control and accountability from leadership. I still ask you to name one incident where a young khalistani leader of name, has killed any innocent?

As far as your little rant about various issues. I would probably come into the category of those people who you state do twisted parchaar. I wish to take issue with that. I and many young sikhs who form the majority, nowadays follow Sikhi which is based on gurbani and factual research. We reject Sanatanism, Hinduised Sikhi, "easy sikhi", and feel that we do not need to apologise for not accepting what many percieve as RSS sikhi.

However I would ask you, if you still think that you have validity in your viewpoints. Then probably the most strict in rehat, message board is tapoban. Start a thread on each issue that you deal important and debate it on there, with the very people who you claim are wrong.

But please try and be factual, rather than ranting. Let me remind you of a few threads.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15293&hl=

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=14906&hl=

You have once again mentioned this whole bibi thing. Are you really saying the Jyot is a liar. He/she has presented photographic evidence.

The problem is everytime we get past the rants, and get to to the nitty gritty with facts. You do not seem to be able to provide any.

I understand if you had some bad experience with some strict sikhs. I have had some, and others may have aswell. But I do not thing having a vendetta against strict sikhs just because they do not except easy sikhi, with kissing, and the rest is the answer.

Just try to understand, why you have such issues.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, we all know the indian media are not the brightest sparks in the world. However rather than ignore, I suggest the original mailer send them a polite email asking to have better research and more accurate sources. Also provide them with a link to a good quality sikh history website.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, thank you for your well balanced response. Ultimately you have just proved my point.

You have come on this forum, which is read by kids who never even saw the period of 1978-1992. Then you asking them for accountability for the actions of people that most of them have never met. Every Sikh is perfectly happy to be accountable for the likes of Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh and Bhai sukhdev Singh Babbar and like Gursikhs. But I am the first to admit I find Dr Jagjit Chohan, zaffarwal, Dr Sohan Singh, and many gurdwara pardans are highly dubious characters. If we say their actions are representative of khalistan, then equally are thier actions representative of Sikhi? Clearly we can only judge Sikhi according to its idealogue, and not by the actions of some characters.

My point is a leader can only inspire, no man can control. You ask for leaders to control a nation, yet yourself, you cannot provide the same accountability for just your messageboard. Please think about it.

Then, just the mention of your messageboard, has put you in a huff and a puff. So you ask for accountability for a nation, but you are unable to control your own mind. Please think about that one more...

Lets just all do as much seva with the high morals that you have said, and try and control our minds to build a better world.

Please do not refer to me as jathedar. I have been offered many, but accepted none. They have no spiritual benefit.

What you do on sikhawareness is your business. Whatever you sow you will reap, just like us all. I have no reason to judge you, I just used it as an example. However I would state that the kind of hatred you show to us, despite the fact you do not know us, and have never met us, is more of a hinderance to you, than us. I have enmity to you. I read what you write sometimes, and just wonder how an intelligent young lad can come up with this stuff. You are a sort of X-file. maybe that would be a good name for your next ID. :lol:

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.S. sorry to hear about your family. Members of my family were killed aswell by Police. It hurts doesn`t it. Especially when they were so young.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I do not think veer namstang has any comprehension of what he is saying, the size and impossibilty of the task he is saying.

I, myself became a khalistani in 1984. I was 10 years old then. But even today, I still remember the pictures on BBC of darbar Sahib being attacked. I had never visited it then, but I still felt like something of mine had been attacked. I did not keep my kesh until 1992, so actually I became a khalistani, before I became a sikh.

I find it hard for anyone who is a sikh to say they are not khalistani considering the nature of what has happened to sikhs. It like saying I am not Panthik, unless this that and the other happens. When in reality every sikh should be panthik no matter what.

remember one thing, it is not the Panth that benefits from us being Sikhs, but we benefit from the Panth from being part of it.

The sentiments of namstang are highly commendable. If you asked Bhai Fauja singh, Sant Jarnial Singh Bindranwale, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, and many others. Then they would all not only agree with you, but also they lived it. I am sure we all know that saying something, and living by it, is an ocean apart.

This first generation of khalistanis were idealogical. They were pure Sikhs. However the second generation of khalistani were products of the oppression and genocide. They were not even amritdhari in many cases. They were just simple sikhs who saw their mothers, sisters, daughters and wifes raped, father, brothers tortured and killed, properties looted. So their inspiration was not Sikhi, but it was revenge on those who did these crimes against humanity, by Congress politicians, Punjab Police, rightwing hindu groups and paid blacks cats like phoola nihang.

You may say, do not take revenge, but try saying to a young man who saw his family butchered not to take revenge on the police that did that to them?

The credit to the level of restraint that Sikhs have had is a testment to thier high characters. Name one crime against humanity by a Sikh? Name any genocide, murder, riot?

Veer namstang, neo, H2o. You seem to have so many names, I apologise as I forget them. So I will just call you Mr Sikhawareness, as another poster said you run the site.

You are asking Sikh leaders for accountability, and asking them to control a whole nation. This is impossible. Name one nation which is controlled completely by one man? Bill Clinton could not control Timothy McVeigh.

You run a messageboard. I have not been on it for years, but my brief experience left a real distaste. But I try not to judge. But you are asking about control. Control is a very difficult this to achieve, People inspire, but people cannot control.

can you control:-

1) That no person leaves your site with no Ninda, Chugli, and anger in their mind.

2) that every contributer has only ever written the 100% truth.

3) that no one heart has been broken by comments on your site.

4) That there is no Anti-Gurmat material on your site.

5) That there is no RSS or hindusiation, or "easy" sikhi on your site.

For anyone who is guilty of above, including you. Will you :-

a) Give him bullet right in the head/ burn him as sri guru maharaj ji burned masands?

b) Excommunciate him from the panth and the group associated with.

c) Take off his dastar, kanga, kara, kachera, kirpan and make him arrested?

What actions will you take to ensure there is no infltration from GOI, RSS in sikhawareness group?

-What actions will you take in terms of parchar, rajniti, amount of "justified" force to make sihawareness? How would you draw a line?

-What actions will you take to ensure there is no fanatacism, mockery committed by members of an group associated with sikhawareness towards other religion, customs, cultures?

Clearly veer ji, you as the leader of just a messageboard have alot of work to do. Just ensure honesty & Gurmat on site is an achievement for you. When a hindu, muslim, Uk nang comes on there. Will you censor them?

I wish not to attack you or sikh awareness, but just point out that the size of task you have set khalistan leaders is impossible, as they can only inspire, but no one can control every emotion in every person in a whole nation.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

I am willing to support khalistan without any blood shed of innocent, with not even one single loss of innocent life of any human being.

Who will be the khalistani leader from this forum who can ensure full security to innocent people lives in course of making khalistan?

anyone volunteer from this forum?

-what actions will you take as a leader or volunteer of an soo called khalistan freedom fighter who across the line and become ruthless murders of innocent person in course of making khalistan because of unjustified offence caused by blind hatred?

a) Give him bullet right in the head/ burn him as sri guru maharaj ji burned  masands?

b) Excommunciate him from the panth and the group associated with khalistan.

c) Take off his dastar, kanga, kara, kachera, kirpan and make him arrested?

-What actions will you take to ensure there is no infltration from GOI, RSS in the khalistani group?

-What actions will you take in terms of parchar, rajniti, amount of "justified" force to make khalistan? How would you draw a line?

-What actions will you take to ensure there is no fanatacism, mockery committed by members of an group associated with khalistan towards other religion, customs, cultures? 

This is an serious post, so give honest answer.

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Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, as in previous years, AKJ UK will be doing a National Youth Smagam between Thursday 15th December to Saturday 17th December. The Smagam is in memory of the 4 Sahibzade, who led the most exemplary lives and are the best examples of Gursikhi for modern Sikh youth. Jeevans that were based upon Seva, Simran and Sacrifice.

This is an ideal opportunity for all Gursikhs in UK, especially youth to take off a few days. Leave the baggage of our worldly lives behind, and come together with the single aim of Gurbani and Naam abyass. Share the highest ideal of Gurmat in keertan and singing the praises of Akaal. Also do sangat of other like minded Gursikhs from around the country and learn how to build a more focussed Jeevan for the betterment of the Guru Khalsa Panth. What value is our lives without Naam?

If you have never attended before, and yearn to meet young Sikhs who have a spiritual focus, then this Smagam is for you!

The Smagam will be held at Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Bradford, with the Rainsbhai at Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara, Leeds Road, Bradford. Coach transport for the rainsbhai is available from Glasgow, Birmingham and Slough/Southall. Further transport will be available from derby, and other parts of the midlands.

The Leeds and Bradford sangat will be providing accommodation for all Gursikhs. Special arrangements will also be made for bibian, so they can all stay together and do abyass and sangat with other like minded bibian from around the country, as well as fully taking part in the smagam.

Gursikh keertanis from around UK, and others visiting from abroad will be doing seva. However, it is the policy of this smagam to dedicate as much time as possible to Youth keertanis, who do not always get time at main rainsbhais to encourage them to further their abyass of Gurbani.

So a humble benti to all. Take out a few days, to share the experience of a spiritually focussed Sangat, drencing itself in the Bani of the 10 Guru Sahibaan, and the Greatest Bhagats to live on this earth in the presence of the Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji.

More details on poster attached. For further information and to book accommodation, contact Bhai Kamaljeet singh ji on 07971 185 457 or email myself. Youth travelling by train, coach or bus to attend the full smagam, please let us know, and we will arrange to pick you up from the stations.

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, the translations were done by Bhai Tarlochan of the Singh Sabha Movement, and recently by Bhai Jaspinder Singh Toronto, father of Bhai Harpreet Singh ji. Both are highly eminent Gursikhs.

Please provide evidence of so-called "mirchmasalla" as you so eloquently put it.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

thanks sooooo much never seen a more inspiring talk.....i loved every minute of it coming from the actual poeple associated with bhai sahib ji. Randhir singh ji is one amazing personailty and after reading his autobio i really wanted to hear poeple tlak about him....this is just wicked...thanks.

chardikala to all. deep kaur x

135093[/snapback]

read bhai sahib orginal texts in punjabi. I wouldn't trust english translations..lot of chelas of sant, bhai sahib, baba in general have tendency of adding lot of "mirch masala" in course of translating.

135095[/snapback]

The lastest installment on tapoban. - click links for story with the pictures

Part 1 - http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=59845&t=59845

Part 2 - http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=60152&t=60152

part 3 - http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=60591&t=60591

part 4 - http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=60943&t=60943

Blue Star: Shahid Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar Part 4

Author: Zorawar Singh

Date: 11-17-05 22:33

From L to R: Shahid Bhai Manmohan Singh, Shahid Bhai Mengha Singh, Shahid Bhai Sukhdev Singh & Shahid Bhai Sulakhan Singh

Bhai Sahib's Family

During this period of 1980-84, Bhai Sahibs family was blessed with children. Bhai sahib had one daughter, Amrit Kaur, and two sons called Tejinder Singh and Gurvinder Singh.

Bhai Sahib elder brother, Bhai Mehal Singh also joined the ranks of the Babbar Khalsa. He is an exceptional individual, especially capable with electronics. These skills became very valuable to the Movement.

Operation Bluestar

Bhai Sahib had been based in Siri Darbar Sahib for some year now. All the Singhs based in Siri Darbar Sahib knew that the Government were sending troops and a conflict would soon happen. General Subheg Singh ji commanded all the Singhs during Operation Blue Star.

Bhai Sahib was accompanied by 90 Babbar Khalsa Singhs during the Operation. General Subheg Singh had asked the Babbar Khalsa Singhs to position themselves at the Guru Nanak Niwas, Guru Ram Das Niwas, and Baba Atal Sahib.

Bhai Sukhdev Singh and Bhai Mehal Singh were positioned at Baba Atal Sahib Gurdwara. Bhai Mehal Singh ji, is a genius with electronics, and had created an elaborate communication system around the whole complex, so all Singhs knew what was happening all the time.

When the Operation Blue Star began, the first Singh to be Shaheed was Bhai Mengha Singh ji Babbar.

Shaheed Bhai Mengha Singh Ji

He was a very high jeevan wale Gursikh, who spent most of his time doing joorian de seva ( seva of shoes). He had been shot in the skull, however just sat down, ignored the blood from his head. He started singing Sukhmani Sahib very loud. Only when he had completed the whole Sukhmani Sahib did he leave this world. When the initial firing ceased, all the Singhs including Sant ji, and Bhai Sukhdev Singh were together at his funeral.

The Singhs all fought together for the next two days. They fiercely held the Battalions of the Indian Army. They were expertly directed by and under the guidance of General Subegh Singh ji. Everytime the army thought they had made some advance, the Singhs would go into the sewer systems, come up behind the army and attack them from both sides.

Another Babbar, Bhai Avtar Singh was the one who did keertan in Sir Harmandar sahib as part of a jatha. He continued keertan during the fighting for many hours, and never stopped, giving strength to the Gursikhs fighting, and also wishing the maryada of continuous keertan in Darbar Sahib to remain. He was shot in the chest and attained shaheedi on the second day of Operation Blue Star.

Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar was given the seva of ferrying innocent sangat out of the complex during the 3 days of fighting. He and his unit saved hundreds of sangat from the inevitable slaughter. For 3 days, they kept coming in and out of the complex saving sangat, and passing vital ammunitions.

After fighting for 3 days, the Battalions of the Indian Army had suffered many losses. Frustrated they brought in tanks, and a helicopter gunship to attack the Singhs at Siri Akal Thakht Sahib. Jathedar Sukhdev Singh saw from his position at Baba Atal Sahib, that the Siri Akal Takht sahib was totally desecrated, and the only Singhs left were the ones fighting around the well underneath Siri Akal Takht Sahib. Bhai Mehal Singh sent a message to Sant Ji on the communication system stating, that we can send 2 Singhs down the sewage systems, to the well and get you out. But you have to tell us now, otherwise it will be too late. Sant Ji sent a message back, stating, "He had done Ardas never to leave, and will stay until Shaheedi". A few hours later, Sant Ji accepted Shaheedi.

Much of the focus of the army was also on Baba Atal sahib and Guru Nanak Niwas, but now with Siri Akal Thakht Sahib subdued, the Army shifted the tanks to their direction. The Singhs had now seen what had happened at Siri Akal Takht Sahib. The Singhs told Jathedar Sukhdev Singh, we must leave now, and continue the fight. Bhai sahib did not want to leave, and said he would cover their escape. But they insisted, and Panj Gursikhs did a hukam on Jathedar Sukhdev Singh. They were totally surrounded. A signal was sent out to all Singhs still fighting at Baba Atal Sahib, Guru Nanak Niwas and Guru Ram Das Niwas. They got suitcases from the Niwas (hotel), and tied one on the front, and one on the back, with ropes. All the Singhs came running out together fighting under a hail of bullets at the same time. Many Singhs were shaheed, but many also managed to get to the side streets of Amritsar.

The whole area was under curfew. But many Singhs were given sanctuary by the local residents. The same Hindu shop keeper, that Jathedar Sukhdev Singh had helped before, helped Bhai Sahib escape. The Army was going from house to house and flat to flat, gathering all Sikh men, as part of Operation Woodrose to massacre them either inside Darbar Sahib, or in surrounding areas. Hundreds of Sikhs were being killed. When the Army came to check the building in which Bhai Sahib had gone to, they did not search the flat. The Hindu shop keeper opened the door, and because he was a Hindu, he convinced them to ignore the flat.

to be continued....

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

Pyare jio, there is no harm in approaching bibian to inform them of Sikh Youth programmes. I know of Sikhs boys and girls who even went as far as conversion, but with pyaar, they have come back.

It is always akward approaching girls you do not know. But you are not chatting them up. Your emotions are pure.

Girls are only funny if they think you are after them. But if you are a proper Gursikh, everyone around will know. Then girls know you are not trying to chat them up, but instead just informing them of where sangat is.

I have been in this situation at sixth fgorm and uni. i always approached them. I have always found communication is essential to keep youth in sikhi. The only reason she is going out with a muslim, is because he is communicating with her.

By the way, making sure she is and your are not a victim of rumours.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I do not wish to offend anyone, but i do think this has not been thought about clearly. I have mentioned it before in an email, which was also sent to sikh news discussion egroup.

The big problem with this legislation is the definition of Terrorism. The whole thing is very vague. How does that apply to words like "shaheed"? i think you will many proponents of the law will move to have the word banned.

What does it define as radicalization? In future will inspiring young sikhs to Amrit, will that be considered radicalization? I am sure many Congressi style commitees will use this against young Amritdhari Sikhs.

In future can we do human rights exhibitions and Panthik conferences?

In reality, it may not be enforced against gurdwaras like it will against Mosques. but we should realise that strictly according to the law it should be equally applied to every Place Of Worship.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

from sikhiunleashed by Zorawar Singh

for story with pics click http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=60152&t=60152

The Jathebandi: Shahid Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar Part 2

Author: Zorawar Singh

Date: 11-10-05 03:33

continued from http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=59845&t=59845

Jathebandi: Shahid Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar Part 2

Forming of the Jathebandi

The Shaheedi of Bhai Amerjit Singh Daheru led the Indian Security Services to realise that many of the actions against the Nakli Nirankaries, had not been done by Sant Jarnail Singh, as they had widely began to demonise him in the national press. Instead they had been done by a small group of organised underground youth from the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. Therefore they began rounding up Sikhs at Akhand Kirtani Jatha smagams.

Bhai Sukhdev Singh greatly felt this. He did not want elderly highly spiritual Sikhs to be harassed in police cells. They went to smagams for Gurbani Rass, and they should not be treated wrongly.

At this time, Bhai Sahib read a book by Giani Tarlok Singh. It was called “Babbar de Vithaya, Golee Chalde Rahe”, (Legend of the Babbar – keep the bullets firing). It was a novel about Babbar Akali movement against the British Raj in India. It had stories about the Great Sikh, Shaheed Bhai Kishan Singh Babbar and his companions. During the Indian Independence movement, they fought against the British Raj, their cruel officers, their touts, spies, Jagirdars, etc, in a guerrilla campaign with amazing feats. Bhai Sukhdev Singh saw this as a model which could be used effectively to organise modern youth.

In 1981, a meeting of active Sikh youth warriors was called. It was announced that the Sikh Youth fighting the Nirankaries was not the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. This was to ensure harassment of elders stopped. Instead this was a new separate organisation called “Babbar Khalsa”.

Early Babbar Khalsa picture

The Babbar Khalsa was a gupt underground organisation. The Singhs in India felt the Jathedar needs to be active on a front-line level. Someone who knows the workings of India and could affect things on the front-line, and inspire the youth to be better Gursikhs.

There was no-one more front-line than Bhai Sukhdev Singh. It was unanimously decided by the youth that the Jathedar would be Bhai Sukhdev Singh. Other deputy Jathedars were also chosen. They were Bhai Anokh Singh, Bhai Sulakhan Singh, and Bhai Wadhawa Singh.

Every member of this Jathebandie must be Amritdhari, and strict in Amrit vela and Sikh code of conduct. They must be knowledge and practicing in Gurbani recitation. They must have memorised all the Nitnem, to ensure it is not missed, even in the heart of battle. They must be regular in Sangatee Seva, like cleaning shoes, so they always remain humble. Anyone who tries to destroy the Sikh religion or Nation would be opposed and eliminated by Babbars. To ensure they are capable of doing this seva, they must be abyassi, humble and always lead a Pure Gurmat lifestyle. Communications by Babbar khalsa would be via a magazine called “Vangaar”, which would have their missions documented and current news.

False Encounters Begin

When Babbar Khalsa became announced, its enemies in the form of Indian Security Services, Right-wing Hindus and the Nakli Nirankaries, now had a visible enemy to track down. No longer was it a case of a handful of Sikh youth among thousands, but specifically hunting Babbars, as well as the Gursikhs with Sant Jarnail Singh ji.

A key Babbar Khalsa activist who was very active in the universities of Punjab was Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagoke. He was a very strict Sarbloh Bebeki Singh, a fearless fighter, and someone who did a lot of “Parchaar” to take young Punjabis away from intoxicants, and make them Khalsas.

Shaheed Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagoke

After a successful action against anti-Panthik forces, the trail followed by Police led to his arrest. He was severely tortured by the Security Services desperate for information on Babbar Khalsa. Bhai Kulwant Singh revealed nothing, and became the first Sikh youth to be Shaheed in police cells from torture. The dawn of the false encounter had arrived.

Sant Jarnail Singh ji had by now become a pivitol figure in India. The murder of Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagoke, and many other injustices, false cases against Sikhs, rape of Sikh girls, etc, led him to now openly speak on stages against the Indira Gandhi Government. His Dharam Yudh Morcha had gained a lot of momentum, and he was inspiring youth throughout Punjab to take Amrit. However his speeches documenting human rights abuses against Sikhs were by now seen to be shaking the foundations at Delhi.

Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale

By now, the Babbar Khalsa had hatched a successful plan to assassinate “Gurbachana”. A young Sikh carpenter called Ranjit Singh gained a job in his house in Delhi doing general building work. At the most opportune time, Bhai Ranjit Singh with some associates killed “Gurbachana” as he got out of his car, which had returned home from a rally. They then escaped by jumping a very high wall, when hunted by Police. Bhai Ranjit Singh was later arrested and sentenced to long term imprisonment, then released as the Jathedar of Akal Thakht Sahib.

to be continued....

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, sinister ji, I am not very knowledgable but I will try and reply to all your points. I did in your previous post on tapoban aswell. Please let me know if they were suitable. However due to be very busy, forgive me if I do not give prompt replies.

responses to your post on this thread.

1. veer ji, I take issue with that fact that you mention My sahibs idealogue was influenced by Moghuls. This is with reference to the shabad "jasse mai avve kasam ki bani " ( as the truth was revealed from Akaal, so I sang). This is the true focal point of Sikh philosophy it can from Akaal via the medium of our Guru Sahibaans.

At no point in Bani it is referenced to any worldly idealogues as influeneces. Sikhism is not a collage of philosophies, but a Revelation of Truth.

In Bani, Guru ji uses analogues of Hindu mythlogy and other cultures. This is not to take from them, but highlight morals using medium whcih the common people of that area understood.

Similarly we have Babar bani, which one could say was a direct influences of Moghuls and there treatment of common folk. However the bani is far deeper and highlights the destructive nature of humans, and mind of the oppressor. So whether babur existed or not, that bani would still have been written, as it is a fundamental part of Guru jis message.

2. Gurmat does not believe in evil. This is a Christian concept, such as Christ and the anti-christ. Gurmat believes in the battlefield of the mind, which as 5 vikaars are countered by Naam and Seva. Hence we do not accept good and evil, but good and negativity which rises from the vikaars. When Guru ji writes Ik Onkaar, this means there is But one God. This fundamentally means everything is God, and Hence no anti-christ power or evil exists.

Hope this is clear. Otherwise feel free to question further.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, whaeguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I am busy writing about other subjects, but will definately Guru ji willing, try and spare some time to write about Sodhi ji.

I am not sure about the whole wheelie thing.

The version I heard in interviews with Gursikhs was that he was being followed, so he rode his bike on a train railway track for quite some distance to stop people following him. It is a very difficult skill.

Like I said, he was a very talented Gursikh, who Sant ji rated very highly. His shaheedi was set back, because I believe Sant ji had specific plans which he wanted him to implement.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi was a very talented Gursikh. He was a master of disguise. Baba Jarnail Singh sent him to infiltrate the Haryana Chief Minister after he shaved the beards of Sikhs on one side of their faces to humiliate them.

Bhai Surinder Singh infiltrated the inner circle of the Haryana Chief Minister. He phoned Sant j and said, I can do his seva, but I will not escape alive. So Sant ji said come back.

Later he was shot while drinking tea on the outskirts of darbar Sahib complex, Amritsar.

When I get time, I will try and write more stories about Bhai Sahib.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji k efateh

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I heard he could do a wheelie on the rail of a train track while changing his chola, with to guns in his hands.

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waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, what time is it starting?

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

Pyare jio, Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi was a very talented Gursikh. He was a master of disguise. Baba Jarnail Singh sent him to infiltrate the Haryana Chief Minister after he shaved the beards of Sikhs on one side of their faces to humiliate them.

Bhai Surinder Singh infiltrated the inner circle of the Haryana Chief Minister. He phoned Sant j and said, I can do his seva, but I will not escape alive. So Sant ji said come back.

Later he was shot while drinking tea on the outskirts of darbar Sahib complex, Amritsar.

When I get time, I will try and write more stories about Bhai Sahib.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji k efateh