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weareallone

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    What is the value of agricultural land in Punjab these days?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 2/24/2023 at 1:30 AM, proactive said:

    My mother used to tell us that when she was a youngster in the 1930s, not much care was taken of land and there were even people who used to complain if they had lots of land because they had to find tenants to farm it and get a good income from it. The loss of millions of acres during partition and the decrease in acreage per family led to land prices going up and tenants being easy to find and get good income. My family hasn't farmed for three generations as we have been giving land on maamla since the 1950s. We have land in the local town which is very valuable and which we are aiming to sell and buy 15-20 acres in or around our village and I would love grow Avacados or other 'superfoods' to sell and invest the profits into job creation schemes in the village. 

    As for the commons or SHAAMLAAT land, this was not land handed over to Jats by the British.  This land which usually centres around a well or KHOOH, was land that belonged to the founders of the village who in our Punjab would invariably have been Jats who allowed it for the use of the whole village. Technically this land belongs to the descendants of the original founders of the village and this is how it is shown on the revenue records. This can be dozens of families or more. The land is shown by Patti which is the line of descent from one of the founders of the village. Thus all families descended from that founder and shown as owners of this Shaamlaat land. The government attempted to give this Shaamlaat land to the Dalits of the village or transfer it to Panchayat ownership which many villages protested against. You can see their point, if the government wants to give Dalits land then why doesn't it buy the land from the legal owners. This scheme was devised by the Congress to gain Dalits votes and create factions in the villages. In our village the Shaamlaat was divided by all the descendent families before it could be taken over by the Panchayat or given to Dalits. We got our share which is about 3m x 10m which we use as a store. 

    Will you please consider donating 75% of your land for reforestation and growing organic food for langar? Please PM me urgently 🙏🏽

    I would also like to address your misconceptions of land ownership. Please read through the end in the spirit of truth and reconciliation. You may learn something new and change your worldview!

    1. To say that Jats founded these villages or were landlords or ever owned the commons, is not true. First, the Jats were themselves originally only peasant (leaseholder) farmers.

    To understand the Commons, Dalit land alienation and how and Jats came to own all the land in Punjab, we need to step back in time and understand feudalism and certain key events in ancient Arya, Guru, Misal, British and Indian history.

    2. Let's start with ancient history. The commons were very old tracts of forest land from ancient Aboriginal times, that pre-date Aryan (Jat) settlements in what is called Punjab today. As part of the Aryan conquest and  subsequent Aryan Colonisation of North-West India, most arable land was acquired by Jats by the dispossession of the indigenous Dalit tribes (in much the same way as indigenous people have been dispossessed the world over). In the caste system and the feudal ownership system, they were considered to be peasant farmers, and given Kabza of new land that was made available by expanding existing Indigenous settlements (clearing the forests).

    Most land on paper (whether farmed by individually by Jat men or collectively by Dalit women), was owned by the local Brahmin, Rajput, and sometimes by Khatri Traders and money lenders. These sub-landlords held a simple title to collect tax. Absolute title was held by the local ruler in right of the prevailing Imperial crown at the time (be it Muslim, or Hindu). However In the feudal system, kabza played a huge role (possession is defacto ownership in law even today). Landlords came and went and estates exchanged hands frequently between Rajas and Navabs due to war etc. Sub-landlords also changed hands. But the customary occupier rarely changed. Indeed Peasant farmers and Dalit Bastis were indeed literally considered to be part of the estate itself (when the estate changed hands; the people who lived there- and their land rights, were included in the sale!). In other words, the tenant farmer had a customary or hereditary right to the land, and the title owner was just a tax-collector with no right to either evict the customary hereditary farmer or hand it over to another, unless by consent or severe violation of law, such as treason etc.

    3. As forests were considered to be valuable Imperial hunting land, it wasn't often opened up to new Kabza. What the Jats had got long ago during the early days of Aryan Colonisation, was what they still had- and the Dalits were at an advantage, as they had customary Forest rights to forage and Hunt, which the Jats did not. However, in the centuries prior to Guru Nanak, and especially during the Mughal era, more and more forests were clearcut for export and shipbuilding and the new kabza (permanent lease) for the deforested land was mostly given to Jats (whether Hindu or Muslim converts)- often at the expense of the Dalit tribe's ancient customary rights). But the actual land title was invariably in the hands of Brahmins or money lenders (as zamindars; sub-landlords), and in imperial records, absolute title was owned on paper by the regional ruling Rajas or Navabs (landlords). Dalits thus became disenfranchised of all but the Commons, which they fought for as their ancient Aboriginal right.

    4. The Gurus totally disrupted the discriminatory Arya Caste system and their exploitation of Mother Earth. The Gurus redistributed land BACK to Dalit stewardship. Their Dharamshalas indeed were modeled on collective Aboriginal Forest gardening and foraging, as practised by Dalit women- with produce being used for the whole community and Langar; commercial farming was strictly banned under the Gurus, and the Jats, many of whom had lost their Kabza due to Expanding Dharamshalas and  land back in Dalit hands, absolutely hated these pesky Gurus for this. (Note that upto 90% of ordinary Sevaks at Dharamshalas came from low caste backgrounds, whilst Jat-Rajputs were very few and Brahmins quite rare). Now, the Gurus achieved this great land redistribution, by obtaining absolute land grants from sympathetic local rulers. So they exercised their acquired legal authority to change the Kabza on land in their own possession, but a lot of Punjab's forests were still held by Brahmins and money lenders, on behalf of some Raja or Navab (who were not as sympathetic to the Gurus). So under the Gurus, Dalits gained the most and Jats lost the most, whilst the forests and food were no longer seen as commodities. Langar, grown at Dharamsalas by indigenous women, was feeding the hungry masses. This was revolutionary.

    5. The Rajput and self-proclaimed savior of the Jat Arya Race, Banda Bahadur (believed by old, reliable Akali Singhs to have been a complete fraud), and his many Jat successors, upset the whole system of hereditary feudalism, Aboriginal rights to Commons, the Guru's Dharamsalas and the forest as a living Goddess.

    For thousands of years after Aryan and Muslim regimes, land had been tax-managed by brahmins and money lenders on behalf of local rulers. Now some Jats in Khalsa garb were engaged in conquest for Land and power. First, they occupied the Dharamshalas and exterminated or expelled the Dalit Sevaks. Then they warred with the various Muslim kings. Jagirs, or land grants were made to the likes of Navab Kapur Singh. Their many land conquests were documented in legal records known as "Misal" (literally meaning the accounting of conquest), and henceforth all the acquired land and money was divided between several local (mostly Jat) warlords, taking on the name Misl. Thus, these imperial Jat warlords now owned “imperial title” to most of Punjab and beyond. But unlike previous periods in history, where ruler's land would change hands but kabza holders stayed put, the Jats upset the whole system: Zamindari was abolished and replaced with "Sardariat", a new form of feudalism, wherein the new Jat warlords weren't satisfied with just being tax-collecting overlords- they wanted the land for themselves. Upsetting thousands of years of feudalism as well as respect for ancient customary aboriginal rights, they vanquished the role of tax agents and lords and evicted non Jats; especially Dalits. Jats gave themselves ownership and permanent and exclusive tenancy over the whole of Punjab. Loyal Muslim Jats and some Khatri were allowed to keep their old Kabza, whilst Dalits were evicted and rendered virtually landless. Some aboriginal Commons still existed, as they were deep in the jungles and hence seen to be worthless as revenue land- but now the Dalits had “legally” become illegal squatters on their own ancient land (like what happened to aboriginal Australia). Now- before you start complaining; "Sardariat" has nothing to do with the Gurus. It still exists in Pakistan and the Muslim feudal landlords are still called “sardars”, and Dalits Sikhs in Punjab still call their Jat Sikh landlords "Sardars").

    6. British rule: The British introduced simple title in all of Punjab apart from certain areas of the North West frontier/KPK (where Sardariat still exists today). The British introduced land revenue records managed by Tehsildars (the system still exists in rural areas). The British Crown acquired all forest land, and so either the British Crown or Jat Panchayat were declared to be owners of the Dalit's Commons, depending on where they were located. PEPSU and Dogra Kashmir and other Princely states had their own system, although valuable forest land (and thus many Dalit Commons) was reserved to the Crown.

    So Commons are an incredible ancient aboriginal heritage of Punjab, and were never owned or farmed by the Jats until they stole the land by conquest.

    7. Now, as happens in commercial agriculture, Jat landholdings gradually reduced as a result of large families and loan defaults; Brahmins and Khatri money lenders had been gradually acquiring a lot of land. At the same time, the forest was being cleared rapidly for wood export to Britain. Dalits, reliant upon sedentary and non-sedentary gardening, foraging and hunting in the middle of the jungles, were finding themselves landless due to mass clearing of forests by the British- and Jats were not letting them access the new “village Panchayat Land” (which still happens today). So, Dalits were organising a big revolt. And the Jats were furious with Brahmins and Khatris whom they accused of "stealing Jat land",  and didn't want Dalits to be given any rights.

    The British government, fearing revolt, were pressured into passing the Criminal tribes Act, which effectively created concentration camps and kill on sight orders for Dalit tribes, as well as the Punjab Land alienation act 1909, whereby legally only Jats (of any religion) were allowed to legally own land (as the designated “agrarian caste”). Transfer of agricultural to non-Jats was thus banned (This law is still on the books as is, in Pakistan Punjab, and in a modified form in Indian Punjab). Importantly, The Punjab Alienation of Land Act also meant that only Jats could buy up Punjab's newly deforestated land at auction at throwaway prices or even for free (Like with imperial White Colonisers in Canada, the British asked the Jats to cut the forest and hand over the timber, and in return they would get legal title). So within a few decades of British rule, all of Punjab's rich jungle was destroyed by Jats, for the British government, and many hundreds of thousands of acres of land came into Jat ownership as new agriculture land (former forest land). This can be studied by looking at Colonial revenue, forest and survey records- if you don’t believe me. Punjab’s vast forest lands didn’t just disappear into thin air! The Jats took it.

    These British Acts also guaranteed that Dalits could not even legally buy back their own land- and so they were rendered totally landless and became bonded indentured Labour for Jats. This helped to cement Jat dominance and Dalit slavery in the modern British legal system, inherited and carried on by India. This is akin to the legal dispossession of Indigenous people's from their land in eastern US states, combined with slavery (US natives were expelled West; Dalits were simply enslaved by the Jats).

    8. Post-independence, a half-hearted attempt was made to redistribute land to landless Dalits throughout India- and was met with a fierce backlash by the Brahmin-led RSS. In Punjab, the Arya supremacist mentality was represented by the Jats (Brahmins and Rajputs Elsewhere). In other words, the Indian government  and Jat Sikhs worked hand in glove to continue Dalit oppression (even as they sparred openly like the competing Arya factions that the really are- the true context of the Bhindawale movement).

    Very Importantly, when "degraded forest" Government land was opened up for auction in Punjab, on the claim that Dalits could benefit. ’Many Dalits' ancient Commons were on these former tracts of forests. Dalits had been farming (and caring for trees and Banyan Groves there for many thousands of years before Jat Arya even existed in India). But the auction was designed to benefit Jats; being open to the general public, Dalits could not compete with the Jats in auction. They had Zero funds, as landless slaves. So your claims of some kind of Congress Gift to Dalits is a lie. In comparison- free land grants were made to Dalits in other states. And you yourself have highlighted the underhand tactics used to prevent land from becoming Commons again; your family got a small corner, but at the expense of how many Dalit children dying of hunger? Think about that.

    We were doing a project recently with struggling Dalit families across Tarn Taran. Every house we went to had the same story again and again: "what did your ancestors do? They farmed and foraged in the jungle on the other side of the village from ancient times. But the Sardars (Jat Sikhs) took it away from us. When it came up for auction of the freehold title, we couldn't raise the funds. The Sardars Acquired the freehold of our own houses too and they regularly extract free labour from us and harass and molest our girls as payment)." You would know that this is common across Punjab, if you lived in India and interacted with real people on the ground.

    9. More recently, due in part to Supreme court orders, Dalits got a hard-won right to bid for annual leases of 1/3 of Panchayat land (what's left of the Dalit's ancient forest Commons and in spite of tactics used to prevent panchayat land from being created) but it wasn't free: they had to pay full market rate for the privilege for a one year lease from the (Jat-controlled) Panchayat to Dalits.

    If you live abroad, what you may not know is that the Jats bring along the local police and thugs and either prevent the auctions from taking place, or place dummy Dalit agents to bid and hand over the land to the Jats and most horrifically - they use sexual violence.

    There is indeed a pandemic of rape and murder of Dalit women trying LEGALLY to farm their own ancient common lands- in which Canada's MMIW pales in comparison.

    See this short documentary: 

     

    As an aside, the very interesting thing is how Dalits farm the Panchayat land, (when they are lucky enough to win the bid for get an annual lease): they farm collectively- by the whole community, for the whole community (every family gets an an equal share of the produce). And it is led by WOMEN. In other words, the Dalits are still growing food communally, equally, and not-for-profit and by women- the way their aboriginal ancestors did, and the way the Guru's Dharamshala's forest gardens were run. They just want to make sure that everyone has food to eat, and be sustainable in the process. Compare with Jats, commercial farmers, who are are hell bent on exploiting every single square inch of land, with maximum pesticide, for a commercial crop. It's run by men and they are reliant upon slave or migrant labour.

    Conclusion: I have simplified the history a bit to keep it easy to understand but it boils down to the White/Aryan Coloniser mentality of Colonise and Exploit mother Earth and indigenous peoples: grab-and-exploit as much land as possible, and enslave Indigenous people, hide behind religious garb, and resist reparations, truth and reconciliation.
     

    At least you now can no longer plead ignorance! Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. If you have 15-20 acres, and your family hasn't lived in Punjab, nor farmed it for 3 generations, you aren't reliant on the land to put food in your mouth- you don't need the land! Let indigenous Dalit womem take care of it as stewards; it is internationally recognized that  indigenous people do a great Job at protecting mother Earth as custodians.


    So might I humbly ask you to donate at least 75% of your land to us for reforestation and to grow organic food for langar purposes? The true Sikh would jump at the opportunity!

    If NRI Jats donated their landholdings to grow forests and organic langar gardens- they could save Punjab. Western born Jats are educated. They are taking part in community gardening and nature stuff. So why continue to Exploit and squeeze every single Penny out of Punjab and it's indigenous peoples?

    Punjab can only be fixed if and when educated and Gurmukh Jats, as the Power holding class, were to engage in truth and reconciliation.

    So I am hopeful that, as an educated and caring person, and as someone who has Faith in the Guru, that you will be willing to offer land.

    If you want to talk about donating your Land, please PM me.

     

     

     

     

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  2. What is the value of agricultural land in Punjab these days?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

    It seems like there's a culture of land-snatching amongst Panjabis. I might be wrong, and I'd like to hear alternative opinions, but I think anyone investing over there needs to grasp this. 

    On top of the external forces, one highly educated guy I met here in the UK  (who was from back home relatively recently i.e. in the last 10 years or so, said something that I think is very perceptive): In a conversation with someone else about land/property back home, who was talking about governmental and mafia grabs (often co-related), he said, before even that, your own family will try and grab the land.   

    I think people shouldn't presume any level of security there. Family muscle and contacts seem to play a big part in this. 

    That’s quite tragic isn’t it? I’ve been to several states and it seems that the greed for land is perhaps the greatest in Indian Punjab. I have several Pakistani Punjabi friends and there isn’t apparently this extent of greed there. Indeed people still happily live traditionally in mud houses without electricity. There's still also forests and waterfalls in Lehnda Punjab but Chardha Punjab (and Haryana) has the lowest forest cover in India at 0.5% (i.e. non existent); every square inch has been exploited for commercial farming.

    I don't want to cause any offence but from my understanding, the land greed and family feuds are associated with Jat culture. I know a few people who have murdered their own brothers over land disputes. There's also a significant disenfranchisement of Dalits- who own no land in spite of making up a third of the population. From a historical perspective, 70% of Punjab (including Haryana) was forest before British rule. The trees were clear-cut, lions and tigers exterminated, and all that land was handed over to loyal Jats. At the same time, in a move similar to Enclosure in England, Commons were dissolved and handed over to the Jats- rendering Dalits landless and in permanent servitude as a slave/manual labour class- which continues till today.

    That said, as an ethnic Punjabi, why should I live elsewhere? I'm living in India now and it's embarassing having to float between other states.

    So safe or not, government-mafia nexus, nepotism and social Jat greed notwithstanding, I need 10 acres land in Punjab for reforestation and self-sufficiency and am hoping that there's someone who can help indicate land prices and geographical features in different districts So that I can shortlist my options. I don't have 10 years to research by wandering around Punjab (and probably getting almost lynched again). Please help!

     

    1

  3. What is the value of agricultural land in Punjab these days?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    4 hours ago, LifeIsBeautiful said:

    Hoshiarpur 4 lakh to 10 lakh

    Thanks for replying. It just so happens that Hoshiarpur is actually the only one area that I know about. There's a land mafia in Hoshiarpur. The whole forest area of the Shivlaik range (the cheap land) is occupied government land (illegal kabja). If you got political connections, you may be able to illegally buy it. The great grandson of kushwant Singh has 1200 acres there (he boasted to me as to how he obtained it illegally). It’s also unsafe. Some years ago, when scouting for land, I got confronted by an armed mob trying to Lynch me for straying into their village. I held them off long enough until the authorities arrived. I was warned never to step into the area again as there’s significant significant mafia presence there.

    Any other parts of Punjab? Which border areas do you mean? Are there any proper forests and flowing streams left in the plains?

    If someone were to ask me about the UK, I could give them a detailed summary on where to find what kind of land and at what price. Hobby farm? Woodland? Coast? Hills? Equestrian? River? Dark sky? A bit of all? I can get you sorted. Can a local  friend please help me likewise for the same in Punjab?

    Magic bricks and the like are mostly fraud and speculative sales. It's not helpful for land research.

    I lived in South India for some time and it's very professional there. I asked for river and waterfall at a low price and they took me to several beautiful sites. People were kind and polite and didn't discriminate (I'm a Bana wearing shastardari and don't speak their language).

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  4. What is the value of agricultural land in Punjab these days?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    1 hour ago, S1ngh said:

    Non-Indian residents cannot buy agriculture land. Property dealers of India are the worst. 
    Best way is to team up with india based NGO/Non-profit org for environmental projects

    I live in India now. In my experience the so called NGOs are the biggest chors! Followed by property agents. Hoping someone can give me an indication on the market in different areas. You can PM me if you don't want the secret info to "get out" 😉

    2

  7. Leather, Tabla of Goats Skin

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    Gurus rejected torture and slavery of all living brings. Thus includes killing or torturing domesticated animals for meat and dairy or performing gruesome rituals like halal. The idea is to live a natural life in balance with nature. If hunting wild animals is part of your food chain and you do so sustainably and with utmost respect then its fine. All parts of the animal must be used and nothing wasted. Only few people have this need. The gurus hunted but were otherwise vegan. The shabad guru is very clear that its all about living naturally and ethically and with utmost respect for all life. The key is to use bibek, or in other words internalise the gurus teachings in the mind.

    If it's not right or possible to hunt then the body of naturally deceased wild animals may be used, again with great respect and reverence and appreciation.

    Guru jis shoes, water bottle, miyan, shield, instrument strings, tools etc were made by his own hand from hunted or naturally deceased wild animals.

    Today However only a small handful of indigenous people have the need for and sufficient respect for mother earth to qualify for hunting.

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  9. Urgent: Want to Share Cruise travel from UK to US/Canada

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    Am travelling from the UK to US/Canada by cruise liner (ship) to New York and then Amtrack (train) to Toronto, Canada Either November 19 or (more likely) December 15.

    I have to pay for 2 people even if travelling alone so it makes sense to share.

    If you want to travel with me please would you urgently message me.

    Benefit is keeping kirpan and 5 star luxury travel for the same cost as a direct flight.

    If you cannot afford to split the cost, you can travel with me for free and have a holiday. You can get off in the US or continue on to Canada or elsewhere.

    I am a Sikh maintaining rehit, nitnem etc.

    Please pm urgently.

    2

  10. Puratan Shastar and Sarbloh Wale

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 02/04/2017 at 7:33 PM, Jonny101 said:

    People in India are ripping us off. They are selling kirpans for huge amounts of money. They will charge extra if they find out you are from the west as if money grows on trees here.

     

    Their lalach knows no bounds. They are more expensive than western manufacturers like cold steel and windlass who produce much higher quality carbon steel blades. 

    You speak truth my friend. Would you recommend Windlass, something like their Light Cavalry Sabre?

    I really am looking for handmade sarbloh.

    1

  12. Wearing Kirpan Openly In Canada

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 12/07/2016 at 0:38 AM, Jai Tegang! said:

    Generally sikhs wear the kirpan underneath as a courtesy to the locals and as a way of keeping it more fastened.. It would help if we see the local anglo persepective. We already look pretty exotic with our Dastaars and kesh/ dhaarraa to them. Openly displaying our Sri Sahib does make them very uncomfortable. Most of us consider it reasonable that we can carry on wearing our kirpans without question in everyday life. All the power to your convictions but its not something we consider an infringement. Anyhow, the pointy edge of the mian (scabbard) usually remains visible so it lets the world know we are loaded :biggrin2: .

    Sorry for the delayed response to this, I have been off the internet for many months. I disagree with your view as if you consider the situation in the UK (and now Australia), the open wearing of kirpan is not only legal, but to abuse a Sikh or ask them to hide it is a hate crime. It is entirely about educating the general public which can only come through wearing the kirpan openly and explaining when challenged that it is not a weapon.

    To feel "uncomfortable" with the "other" is not acceptable- it is called racism and/or discrimination. Black people are feared and loathed for simply being black in many parts of North America. This is the same anglo perspective which you're dealing with. It can and must be challenged.

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  13. Puratan Shastar and Sarbloh Wale

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 22/03/2017 at 11:25 AM, S1ngh said:

    Huge cost brother! Ppl are raking money in India by selling old and possibly fakes.

    Yes this seems to be the general consensus unfortunately, although one Nihang Singh has promised to find something for me.

    Any contacts for Sarbloh wale please? I'd like to get some good copies/reproductions made of Guru's puratan shastar and artefacts that are on display.

    1

  14. A woman's strength

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

    Based on what?

    Is there any evidence to what you are asserting?

    As opposed to the non-existent evidence for the history as presently taught by the Indians?

    You're having a laugh aren't you? To understand the situation of women at that time, just look at Afghanistan today. It is a fact that there were almost no women on the hill. Even the official painting of vaisakhi currently hanging in Bangla Sahib shows only men in the crowd. It is a fact that women were initiated alongside men, were present in subsequent panj piare and were great warriors, wearing unisex clothing. I need not provide any sources, these are known facts.

    As to the fact of the young woman who stood up first, this history has been passed down orally and can be sought from the Guru directly. If you are a Sikh, then by all means talk to the Guru and ask for confirmation. If you are not a Sikh you cannot talk to the Guru and are not eligible for challenging me here.

    2

  15. A woman's strength

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    The backward Indian sardars and sadly many of their foreign born diaspora have deeply rooted cultural baggage which includes patriarchy and treating women as chattel; only worthy for warming beds, cooking, cleaning, raising children etc. This isn't just an Indian thing (South Indians are completely different), nor is it a North Indian thing; somehow the sardars are amongst the most extreme: female child genocide amongst this group is the highest in India considering the high level of literacy.

    Alternative facts to challenge your small minds: On vaisakhi day 1699, hardly any women were to be seen in the open, for they were barred from walking in public. Of those handful of women, young or old who made it to the hill in amongst thousands of men, all stood up when the Guru called for heads. One old woman was pulled down by her family- they said she had gone mad. A young woman called Shanti Devi was jeered at by men as she made her way to the front; in crude and abusive language they asked for what purpose was she going into a tent with a youthful man? Later on she was raped and burnt alive by her family members for the crime of dishonouring the family. Guru Gobind Singh saw all but could not intervene as if 5 women entered his tent, he would forever be known in Sardar history as a womaniser. Eventually Daya Ram stood up.

    Women were however immediately initiated into the Khalsa alongside men and panj piare thereon always had from 2-5 women in them.

    These facts have been suppressed.

    Another fun fact: Women are stronger and braver than men.

    waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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  16. what is the "simran" mentioned in first ashtpadi of sri sukhmani sahib and how to do it?

    in GURBANI | SAKHIAN | HISTORY

    Posted

    There are some techniques to actual simran, one's life needs to be attune to the Guru and one needs to understand the inherent value of simran which comes through the Guru. These three things must happen simultaneously.

    Some jatha walas worship their founder leaders on the basis of ridhi-sidhi. They claim that these things are testament to the fact that their chap (yes, invariably a man) has done everything right so copy his one low life and forget about the Guru's 10 pure lives. One such greatly worshipped man (now deceased) taught his followers that until and unless they experience this great powers, they aren't doing it right. Sadly he was mistaken: These ridha-sidha are entirely irrelevant. Your mind being washed of its filth is a prize, power and award that only the greatest bhagti can get, for even the ridhi-sidhi so called mahapurakh hasn't been able to conquer his own houmai. Going from being conceited and angry to seeing God in all directions is the Guru's true gift. This is the most basic of truths that the Guru tells.

    Do a true ardaas and the Guru will oblige.

    waheguru ki ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

    1

  17. Raag Styles question

    in GURBANI | SAKHIAN | HISTORY

    Posted

    waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

    Question for the Raagi Gyanis and Ustaads: I am trying to differentiate between the main raag keertan styles.

    In the big Gurdwaras, the tanti saaj Raagis sing in a sing-a-long fashion (repeating melody, rapid progress through the shabad). However there is another rarely heard style where the singing is very different: substantive vibrato/voice echo, slow progress- once verse may be chewed upon for a very long time with great emotion and improvisation. Listen to the following two clips which demonstrate this (Man Japoh Ram Gopal - 1 in 'sing-a-long' style and 2 in the 'slow tempo' style).

    -Are there any names to describe these two types of vocalisation? Is it correct to say that the vocalisation of the latter is a genre such as Dhrupad?
    -In simple terms what is the difference between the two? Do they have the same core basis?
    -Can all ustaads teach the second type?

    Sample 1-Raag Kanra- Man Japo Ram Gopal-Prof Surinder Singh.mp3

    Sample 2-Raag Kanra- Man Japo Ram Gopal-Ustad Harbhajan Singh, Balwant Singh Namdhari..mp3

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  18. Did some impotent cuck so called Sikhs sign a deal to be servants of the British army?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    Have no doubt that the armed forces of modern nation states are mere pawns of the political ruling class and the military-industrial complex. They are mercenaries fighting for blood lust, money, fame, ideology and a false sense of patriotism.

    A Sikh is sovereign and bows only to the Guru. They do not do the bidding of politicians and industrialists.

    The subtlety of the Gurus messages is lost on many Sardars. Read the Zafarnama: Make peace, not war. Fighting is not glorious, rather it is a matter of sadness that humanity has reached rock bottom. The Gurus spread love, peace and unity even in difficult and testing times. Think of it this way- a mother is forced to discipline a wayward child because he is intent on causing great harm. Will she ruthlessly murder him, or appeal with love, put her body in harm's way and if absolutely necessary, forcefully but lovingingly hold his hand? The Guru did not fight against soldiers on the battlefield, but rather was faced with the difficult circumstances of dealing with his wayward children (read mercenaries fighting for rulers). He healed the wounded and gave them the choice: Love and leave or go back again on the battle field. Many cried and were humbled by these words.

    Did the Guru try to assassinate the Mughal emperor or instead give their head in sacrifice/ continue to try and make peace till the end? Yet the narrative spun by the Indian sardars (and therefore their diaspora) is the common Old World War philosophy.

    This is why it is Sant Sipahi and not the other way around. One can only wield the sword if one is a saint and a saint is never angry, never holds vengeance and has no enemies- they love everyone even if the opposing party is trying to kill him. Love ultimately defeats anger and only the sant can perform these actions.

    What is the point of learning shastar vidhya when you don't know how to fight the battles the world faces today (consumerism, water about to run out, ecological genocide etc)? Fighting is the easy part. What about spreading peace and love amongst the entire world? What did the Sikhs ever do for the various genocides that have killed millions yet beat their chest and cry on the global stage about the thousands that died because some sardars decided to take vengeance? Where are the Guru Tegh Bahadurs of today who would have been first in line to be killed in order to save the drinking water at Standing Rock? The Guru's vidhya is not shastar vidhya but rather pure love. Raising a sword is nothing special- it has been done by drones throughout the ages.

    This is all a false narrative. You need to re-adjust the lens with which you are looking at the world and your place in it, if you think that there is any relation or usefulness of Sikhs being involved with any nation state's armed forces. The purpose of the Sikh is to usher in a new age of Satyug, where wars have ended, where the cause of conflict has ended.

    Are you looking at root causes of problems in society and solving them? It is easy to be reactionary, easy to jump the gun and shoot from the hip. It is easy to be an angry ignorant redneck, but it takes Gods grace to be his true Sikh. It is only the Sikhs and not any other other who have access to the ultimate truth. Will they listen? Or will they fall prey to the Eastern/Western Old World philosophies of anger-kill-destroy-glory-falsepride?

    Bear in mind that I am ready and prepared to die to serve the guru and have been saved from certain death many times including Gun toting Indian Soldiers and Knife wielding Hindu Mobs so I'm not talking through my backside. I'm not a part-time sikh who wears Bana only on a Sunday or for show. Heed my words: Fall at the feet of the Guru and learn. Wipe your mind clean with the shabad and be prepared to change your life beyond your initial comfort zone. Forget about your job, career, friends, even citizenship. Be a Sikh and only a Sikh. Life is too short and precious to waste.  Go to Africa. Go to China. Save the world, make it a better place for one and all. Do it  now. The Guru knows all.

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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  19. Puratan Shastar and Sarbloh Wale

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

    I'm sorry if this is a repeat thread, but I couldn't find any conclusive information elsewhere. I'm looking to acquire genuine puratan shastar in India, the likes of 2-3' shamsheer, tegha, khanda, chakra etc. This won't be for a private collection, not would it be sold on for a profit. What are they likely to cost?

    Sikhs did also use European made/style cavalry sabres, which are readily available as antiques in the UK etc. These can be easily distinguished by use of carbon steel, a western style hilt and issue markings on the blade. Is it possible to find such antiques in India- many thousands would have been in active service in the 19th century?

    I'm also looking for good Sarbloh wale to copy/reproduce puratan artefacts. Any contacts for humble and rehitwale sikhs would be most appreciated. Address/personal introduction preferred as daas does not have a telephone.

     

    1

  20. Authentic/Original Kirpan

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 08/08/2016 at 8:20 PM, ms514 said:

    VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

    Do you have approximate size measurement of the overall length, blade and handle?  Spine thickness and other measurements or approximations would help. 

    waheguru  ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

    I'm so sorry I missed your post. I have been delayed travelling to Anandpur Sahib to get the measurements. In fact I plan to visit next week. I doubt they will let me touch Guru Sahib's artefacts but perhaps they may allow someone well respected to take measurements. Any suggestions are welcome.

    From the photos whilst exact measurements are not clear (possibly 7-8 inches blade, 12-14" total), proportions may be deduced i.e. ratio of blade:handle is 4:3 (meaning long handle), handle is quite narrow/roundish and the blade straight curving inwards slightly at the end. The sheath is leather and is long enough to hold the blade and 1/3 of the handle.

    As an update I ran into an old Nihang Singh who was carrying a puratan kakkar kirpan which was straight. He also happened to have a curved tip knife which resembled the standard taksali kirpan, which he himself said was an arab knife. Some locally made/puratan nihang kakkar kirpans are apparently straight.

    Exact measurements will have to be taken from the original. It should not be too difficult for good sarbloh wale to reproduce. Any contacts will be helpful.

     

     

     

     

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    If there was a referendum on Khalistan tomorrow...

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    This so called khalistan is deeply offensive and derogatory to me and my Guru- if only you would begin to understand that the whole world, the whole universe and beyond is home to the Sikh and that anyone can be a Sikh.

    The purpose of Sikhs is to usher in a new age of sat yug. This is a global situation. Most if not all of you are residents of Western countries. Conduct your duties and responsibilities as a Sikh where you live. Sikhs are to be the example of the absolute truth in society. The Guru rejects boundaries and political maps. There is no religion called Sikhism- it is the universal truth for one and all and the so called sikhs are failing in this regard- merely wanting to copy the abrahamic religions, each of whom have their own holy cities and nations. Sikhs are beyond religion. They are beyond nations. They are meant to be the embodiment of the Guru, sacrificing their lives to make this world a better place.

    Yet the trending topics on this forum right now are "Gurdwara fight", "Khalistan referendum" and "Intercaste marriage". As a non Punjabi, these topics have nothing to do with me. As a Sikh and world citizen, my duty is only to the Guru.

    The most pressing issues in the world today are environmental destruction and global warming, capitalism and consumerism and the political-religious warmongering.

    Whilst the world is headed to certain destruction, the Guru looks to the Khalsa who he gave the responsibility to protect and save the world. Yet where is this Khalsa? Busy carrying the cultural baggage from their great-grandfather's pind?

    People are being blown up with grenades by paramilitary in North Dakota. Standing rock will be remembered by future generations as a historic ocassion when those who stood for the right values in society, fought and gave their all for a better world. God will always remember that the so called Sikhs of the 21st century, busy banging on about some hypothetical religious Vatican City/Mecca style religious nation state where they can practice their tainted and culturally-loaded religion and brandish big egos and weaponary and raise slogans against people they hate.

    What happens to these big egos and kirpans when it's time to face up to the fact that unless the world acts RIGHT NOW, global fresh water supplies will run out by 2040, war extreme suffering will prevail (UN report). Those very same people who talk big become mice and hide in the crevices. Are they sikhs?

    Now before you get upset and rant against this message, just think about what the Guru expects of you. A true Sikh is one who, upon hearing the words of ethics or of personal failure, will drop before the Guru and beg for guidance and strength. Be that Sikh. Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji, the one and only Guru, the Shabad Guru is here for one and all to guide. Seek the Guru. Leave behind your great-grandtather's cultural baggage. Reject religion. Accept only God. Give your head to the Guru and mean it. Save the world. Do it now.

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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  22. Where to buy puratan shastar and new leather shiel ?

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 13/09/2016 at 4:42 PM, RattanSingh said:

    WJKK WJKF,

    Sangat ji if anybody can help me find puratan shastars and good war worthy leather shield from Punjab or Nanded, i will be thankful. Even if anybody knows where can i find new sarbloh shastars, that would be great too.

    Since it is in bold, are you war worthy? And what war specifically are you worthy for in context of the great problems facing the world today? Are you ready and prepared to die if I passed on an assignment to you? Far from just asking whether you know how to use shastar, do you even know what war to fight and what shape and form that fight looks like? Do you understand that war is the ultimate-last resort? What actions are you undertaking to resolve the situation that you refer to? Fat lot of good your war worthy shield is going to do when you don't know and don't care about the huge global problems in the world that the Sikhs are supposed to be fighting for.

    Sikhs must always ask the deeper questions that lie at the root of all things, actions, thoughts and decisions. It is useful to do an ardaas and plead the Guru for the benefit of automated guidance in life so that everything can always be put into the context of the Guru's truth.

    1

  23. The true mark of maturity is when somebody hurts you and you try to understand their situation instead of trying to hurt them back

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    Sikhs have been badly affected by Christian influences of "compassion" and "forgiveness". It surprises me that this should be a subject at all when nirbhau nirvair is right there in the mool mantar. If one does not hold enmity, there is nothing to forgive because you never held a grudge in the first place. If one has no anger and there is no enmity, revenge is not in the picture. When you are the God's servant, you are 100% dedicated to serving the Guru so part-time Christian "compassion" need not figure as you are joined to the fountainhead of compassion. By going right to the root of things, there is no need for any debate on questions of "compassion" etc as it has become internalised and automatic like one's breath. The Christian way is to look at life is being horrid and difficult (blame the devil), and so try to take upon some positive virtues when you can to earn a place in heaven and be a better person. Rid yourself of this mentality. Life is beautiful. "Heaven" is here and now. Humans themselves are responsible for all ills in society. The so called sikhs in the world today are engaged in unethical practices that cause poverty and environmental destruction elsewhere in the supply chain but push nominal messages of peace and love at the same time and so some cursory actions to make themselves feel good- this is the Christian influence acting out. A true Sikh will investigate their actions and inactions according to the Guru's ethical principles (bibek) and be very much aggrieved of the fact that we are in a Kali Yug and that we have fallen to be actors and participants in this Kali Yug rather than serving the Guru and fighting limb and tooth to make this world a better place for one and all.

    Another example of Sikhs pushing Christianised messages include Dasvand (=tithe), when the Guru asks for 100% of mind, body and wealth. Sikhs do not need money and live outside of a money economy, but today's so called sikhs are living in a money economy and engaging in unethical practices that fly against the face of positive principles. For a Sikh, a principled, ethical life is not part-time charity, something to do on a Sunday or a "nice" thing to imbibe in life- it is life itself; there is no other life- and it is perfectly natural and normal (it is the rest of society that has become corrupted).

    Punjabi cultural baggage also causes a lot of problems for Sikhs including Western diaspora who may be several generations removed from Punjab. Nearly everything in Punjabi and indeed most North Indian culture stands opposed to the Guru but nevertheless you have been brought up with it.

    Fact: Most things the Guru did or preached were never genuinely understood. It's like explaining complicated things to a village simpleton; they will interpret things in terms of what they already believe and understand and that is what has happened to the Guru's message as passed down through Punjabi/North Indian lineage. When the Guru talked to the crowds in Pubjab about sustainability and the biosphere they understood "live simple life" end of. I've met the so called sants and babas. On repeating the Guru's truths they just look dumbfounded and offer tea and biscuits to end the ackward silence. None can refute but they don't know and importantly- don't care and because of their ego (unwilling to admit that they have missed out on the Guru's truth), will not change themselves or others. Some of these people have been blessed with an internal spiritual strength and even through they do not understand, they have an intuitive understanding of the importance of it and will do all to help- these are true Sikh and I've met very few.

    What to do? If you want to learn the Guru's principles, forget every single thing that you have ever learned from your family, society etc and turn to the Guru with an open mind on every single matter in life. If you turn to the Guru with a true heart, you will be blessed with the truth.

    People ask me- tell us the truth then if you know so much, but I say why should I do so? The truth is with the Guru. Instead of paying lip service and performing your weekly rituals go and learn the truth from the Guru and you will then understand. Don't believe me or any baba or bhai sahib, the truth can only be known under circumstances that yield a natural life (sat yug) wherein the Guru is already part of your life without needing to know consciously, or in this dark age, take the great benefit of the Guru who is crying out with truth for all who want it. Or not. But just don't peach Christianied and Pubjabised messages.

    1

  24. Authentic/Original Kirpan

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    On 06/08/2016 at 6:14 PM, ms514 said:

    VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

    The pictures posted above are all from either Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh per the link referenced.  The small Kirpan attributed to Dasam Patshah from his pyre was a Dumalla Shastar.

    You can't believe websites without research. It is easy to paste photos and label them incorrectly. For the three photos in the link you referenced:

    1. The two shastar and khanda are decorative dumalla shaster belong to Bagrian family in Sangrur. These never belonged to the Guru. They probably date to the 19th century as per style and usage (the Guru and his Sikhs did not carry symbolic/decorative dumalla shaster- only real full size usable shastar, whether in kamarkasa, gatra, dumalla, arms, legs or back. Dumalla shastar, particularly symbolic Khanda become very popular in the 19th century especially amongst Nihangs and Sikh reformists, including ironically Baba Ram Singh of Namdhari fame- as per historical accounts and paintings).

    phoca_thumb_l_Small-Sri-Sahib.jpg

    2. Baba Deep singh's "small (kakkar) kirpan" which is at Akal takht Sahib, which I have already posted before in this thread. The other examples in this photo are probably not authentic for reasons highlighted above. At Akal Takt sahib, they display this "small kirpan" and the Baba ji's full sized chakar and khanda (likely used for Amrit Sanchar) from the photo, to the public during their Purtan Shastar display session and not these small symbolic so called dumalla shaster, which I doubt was ever worn for reasons highlighted above.

    2184019561_7197f01a99-150x150.jpg

    3. The small artefact that is supposed to have been recovered from funeral pyre. Purpose unknown. It was not a dumalla shastar and purpose is unknown. Even if story is to be believed, provenance is not known. How did it reach Damdami taksal? Who claimed to have found it?

    300px-Gurugobindisnghknife-150x150.jpg

    Once again I will stress that I have started this thread specifically asking for information on the "small kakkar kirpan" as per authentic and verifiable sources, and not shaster, dumalla shastar, decorative pieces etc. There are few more examples of Gurdwaras holding "small kirpan" of famous Sikhs around India. Mata Sahib kaur e.g. in Delhi, which is supposed to be straight like Baba Deep Singh's. I will confirm this shortly. There must be other such examples. The Guru and Sikhs had access to so much Shaster that even if they once looked or set hand on it, Gurdwaras claim it was "theirs". Only some unique aretefacts such as kanga, kach, chola, and karad "small kirpan" are likely to have worn by them and out of these, only their single karad "small kirpan" worn 24/7 till death.

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  25. Authentic/Original Kirpan

    in WHAT'S HAPPENING?

    Posted

    14 hours ago, ms514 said:

    300px-Gurugobindisnghknife.jpg

    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

    Waheguru ji, the one from the videos and second photo was meant to have been found after the Guru's funeral. His body, like that of Guru Nanak ji, vanished. His everyday kakkar "small kirpan" which he wore on his body, is at Keshgarh sahib which I have posted before. I don't believe that this is necessarily a "small kirpan" from the point of view as a kakkar- e.g. the handle looks brass or gold and welded on, whereas the Guru's own rahitnama for a kakkar karad ("small kirpan") is for it to be a single piece of iron, but it certainly is very special indeed and shows that the either the Guru was cremated holding this or his body was replaced with this. It is also small and is likely to have been kept in his kesh or serves some other purpose that we no longer know. Nevertheless notice that it is straight, indeed a perfect dagger with both sides going to a point and is not curved like the ARAB knives that is being carried today.

    The other example you provide is much more recent- perhaps 19th century, but nevertheless this too is not an ARAB knife. The thing in particular that makes the "taksali kirpan" stand out is the sudden curving away tip and the ostentatious sheath which is very curved at the end. This is characteristic of the Arab Janbiya and no other culture used it. The original sheath was leather and completely straight. There is a loop on the top end. It could not be fixed to the gatra the way it is today so some other form of attachment method would have been there. The stainless steel taksali ones we wear today makes a mockery of everything.

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