Quantavius

Change the record, Q. I wasn't even alluding to "whitey" or any of the other nonsense you've got a chip on your shoulder about. The other posters you were interacting with may have mentioned something along those lines, I don't know, I hadn't read that far back. I was replying to your "numbers" argument; nothing more.

You're either being deliberately obtuse (a troll) or you're in need of a history, psychology, and sociology lesson. Since I don't have time for any of that, I'm sure you'll understand if I cease this nonsensical back-and-forth. Having a debate with someone in a mature manner with some give and take is preferable to the game-playing you seem to revel in on a regular basis. You can't stand Sikhs and brown people so much, then there's a straight-forward solution to your problem: leave this forum.

As an aside, this might dispel some misconceptions you possess on the above subject. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/16/zac-goldsmith-leaflet-british-indians-heirlooms

The Guardian's a regressive-leftist rag, but even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Take easy bro. Have a 'masala cha' on me. LOL!

I always expected you to be 'saner' one here. But I guess I'm wrong. If you ask me, some of the characters here need to be in a straight jacket. At the very least, in need for urgent therapy. LOL!!!

You and your gang are funny. You have more imagination then Walt Disney and Hollywood. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read again and stop arguing.

What's your purpose of sticking on here if you hold a dislike for many of the members.

Nope. I only don't like you. LOL! I'm not going anywhere buddy until the Admins decide otherwise. I enjoy being a bee in your bonnet. LOL!!!!

i've already explained it to you. It's not about "doing," it's merely enough to create or stoke already existing divisions. If, hypothetically speaking, physical unrest does develop in the distant future, it will be enough to know that Sikhs will be against Muslims. Numbers and outcome aside, that's enough. Stop taking everything so literally.

And I have already explained it to you that division already exists. Our Gurdwaras do a far better job then any white man could ever do. Therefore this 'whitey' trying to get Sikhs riled up against Muslims is pure nonsense.

Stop imagining stuff. Whites are not drinking goblets of wine, laughing and then planning our demise. We don't even register on their radar.

Better read forum rules before arguing aimlessly. You have not been called a liar but proved to be one.

Request to Admin: pl apprise gentleman of forum rules on Dasam Granth sahib and show him his place.

I'm well read on the forum rules. Nowhere does it state I must agree with you nor have I insulted anybody.

This is what you are writing on May 2 ,2016. Today you write that you have read charitropakhayan.what a shame.

Re read carefully what I wrote. You obviously suffer from reading comprehension and I'm not going to waste my time here. Maybe you should take up 'hooked on phonics'. LOL!

You want to stroke your puny ego and call me a liar? I couldn't care less. Go ahead.

But you are caught lying twice on this subject. You may be anything or believe anything it is not our concern.

Keep your beliefs with you.There is a zero tolerance on this forum for Anti Dasam Granth propagandists. What the hell you are doing here.Have you no self respect.

Does the forum belong to you? You have a huge chip on your shoulder. For someone who hangs out a religious forum, you like many here are suffering from an over inflated ego.

I think you're getting caught up in the literal logistics of the situation, as opposed to the broader, sociological aspects of it. Clearly, Sikh numbers are low in the UK. But when people talk about using Sikhs as pawns, it's not in terms of gathering a bunch of Singhs together who'll then go on the rampage against huge numbers of Muslims. It's more to do with drumming up ill-feeling in Sikh minds; some of that will invariably lead to skirmishes. But when people refer to Sikhs being used as pawns in these modern times, I believe it's not a literal act of battles breaking out on the streets IMO.

Yes, but what can half a million people do? Please tell me in clear language how are the Sikhs going to be used as pawns?

Ill feelings towards Muslims? They were already like that before any British set foot in India. The various posters in the Gurdwara does a far better job then any white man could ever do.

I think many here are suffering from illusions (delusions is better...ha ha) of grandeur.

I did not read your first line. You made a statement earlier on this topic that you do not know much about DG.

After 5 to 6 days you are writing that you have read it. What is going on.I am sorry to state that you are a habitual liar.

Look, you're obviously looking for an argument and I really don't have time for that. Yes, yes....I'm some secret RSS guy. Wait! Actually I'm a Missionary! Or maybe a combo of both? I don't know man.

You better get used to the idea that not everybody is going to agree with you. And you can't convince others by fighting with them. It's not going to work.

Oye! Quantavius!

Was that retarded old, boot-licking Singh like your old man by any chance? Seriously.

I'd always imagined people like you were the offspring of people like that.....

I'm warning you. If this continues, I'm going to be reporting you to the moderator. You're already on a short lease.

he has been excommunicated so forget the past he is NO LONGER A SIKH, his bought opinion has no sway

From Sikhwiki

Recently, he was excommunicated from panth for not reciprocating his tankha. In addition, he and all other's who were "excommunicated" from the panth were called back to be given pardon, he denied, saying that going would give the jathedar's the pleasure of assuming that he agrees with their excommunication; namely, him not attending Akal Takhat to reciprocate his tankha. He said that there was evidence of him going there and this was merely a way to dis-character him.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Professor_Darshan_Singh_Khalsa

My brother first of all he is not professor as he is 10 grade only. It takes 17 years after ph d to become professor if one's thesis is accepted. He has put a label of lies on his forehead of professorship. He is neither a historian nor an academic.He can do kirtan on harmonium by reading from a hand written slip in front of him.A person who lies is unfit to preach as his Jeevan is low.

All his life he earned money by singing banis of Dasam granth. Now when time has changed he is making money to propagate against same Granth.

Perhaps however, he was a former Jathedar so I very much doubt his knowledge on Sikhism is questionable.

These people do not even know the structure of charitropakhayan. Charitropakhayan is a third person narration cast in mantri bhoop sambad. king is old and marries a young princess by force.he has a son from previous marriage who matches age of his new wife.queen is not satisfied with king and wants to have sexual relation with step son.He refuses saying that she was his mother.queen complains to king citing sexual advance by his son.King orders son to be hanged without investigation.

Minister is very wise and knows bad character of queen.He does not say directly to king that queen is at fault fearing king will hang him too.Instead he recites stories of bad character women and men to King to let him know such people are there in society to make him realize about queen. Those stories are chariters. Upkhayan means short stories cast within framework of a large story.

So when one reads chariters one should keep in mind the context for which these are being recited.At end of each chariter it is written it is king - minister dialogue.

These missionaries lack academic and spiritual education.none of them have read charitropakhayan. They pick some lines out of context and cite saying Guru sahib can not write this.If you counter question then they run away.

Please read this also

http://sikhsangat.org/2016/rebuttal-of-gurdarshan-dhillons-comment-about-sikh-scripture-sri-dasam-granth/

I read that and I'm not convinced our Guruji Maharaj wrote that.

From what I've read elsewhere one of the vocal Anti Dasam crowd is Professor Darshan Singh who is a former Jathedar of Akal Takth. I very much doubt he of all people are ignorant on Sikhism.

You're right. They clearly resent the possibility of losing their loyal dogs, which the Sikhs have been for some time now. Hindus will always reserve their primary loyalty for their precious Bharat Mata even if they live elsewhere, and most Muslims despise Britain for constantly shoving itself into Muslim affairs, I think the establishment is aware of these truths. But we Sikhs, having no country of our own, could always be counted upon to wave the union jack like good little ghulaams because there is nowhere else for us to direct our national loyalty. There hasn't been since the Sikh Raaj was dismantled and our people displaced. This, and the knowledge that they can always use Sikhs as pawns in the event that there is some trouble with Muslims, is what Jagraj is threatening with his common sense.

How would Sikhs be used as pawns when Sikhs are barely a million in the UK? Based on the following website, Sikhs barely number half a million. http://www.oxfordsikhs.com/SikhAwareness/Sikh-Population-Around-The-World_159.aspx

I agree with the many nihangs and parchaariks who have said to read Guru ji's Granth in full and not have galat khial is wholly dependent on the level of maturity and spirituality one has. Guru ji helps and reveals the internal levels to His Bani whether in Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji or in Dasam Guru ka Granth as we progress that's why rehit wale will KNOW that Chandi IS NOT the Hindu Devi but actually the Gurmat Buddi but, the manmukh will read LIterally and conclude Hindu Devi, therefore without reading anything more will 'Judge' (this word is so repugnant , who are we to do this?) that the whole granth is not desirable ...funnily enough they will quote Guru Pita ji to cut Guru ji's bachans from our life ; Jab eh gehe Bipran ki reet, main na karoun inke parteet (FACEPALM)

Guru Granth Sahib has told us countless times that many many demi gods, goddesses have existed, do exist and have passed but they are AKAAR so not to be worshipped by a gursikh...the same message is repeated in Dasmesh Pita ji's Bani . Using the fokat logic of these unpard parde likhe because Guru Maharaj acknowledges and names and describes the karams of such entities we must also abandon Guru ji because just like Dasmesh Bani they are mentioned . The katebs , the Quran, the Injil, the Zohrab, The Torah are mentioned in both Granths does this mean the muslims and the christians wrote or altered both also ? ...the madness being pedalled is painful to see and hear.

JKV, I forgot to add, they are also questioning the authenticity of it.

honestly brothers and sisters , I tried to read chaitro section of Dasam Granth but I found the character of the Raja and Rani so repugnant from the get go I just didn't care to read any further

when I did so out of academic integrity to not lie if I was asked if I knew what it contained ...I found the language to not to be as explicit as Dasam nindaks would have you believe as the terms used are also used in Guru Maharaj too like ravia , bhog ...etc. The way I see it is , if you have kaam under leash through converting it by naam you will not get galat phurne and will look at it all with a level of detachment.

Missionaries don't have enough akkal to work out that the purataan singhs used to refer to the chotta granth as Dasam Guru ka Granth which contracts to Dasam Guru Granth and that titles gets their chaddies in a bunch. honestly they would get Z- as a grade in Sikh ithihaas and Literature

From what I have read, this is the part where there is the bone of contention.

How about the accounts from the Panj Pyare themselves?

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Wow!

I suppose common sense dictates that bhai mati das did not complete his paat of Japji Sahib because the brain was cut in half and his rasna, that the eyewitnesses there lied too when they heard the bani continue ... What about Baba Deep Singh ji ...or Baba Gurbachan Singh ji who emulated him ? There is human strength and then there is the power of Akal Purakh

I was referring to the OP. Don't get your 'gothe' in a twist just yet. LOL!

There were thousand of Sikhs there yet no corroborating story from a single Sikh that matches what this Mughal witnessed? Come on dude. This is where common sense kicks in.

you are a bit confused no white man made oil, or any resource , they may have exploited other's resources since they are not naturally occuring on land of the British Isles besides these three resources are NOT why the Europeans wanted access to India. they wanted spices, cotton, tea, fabrics printed in colourful ways, silks and to exploit the cheap labour whilst robbing the unwary elites.

I'm really tired of arguing with you. You are a broken tape recorder. No amount of information can fix you. You're a 'one trick' pony. The Americans have a good adage to describe the likes of you and here is how it goes, "You can't fix stupid". Here is another, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Hello mr troll. Look down into references section of the Wikipedia page. I would call them 'reliable' sources for sure - peer reviewed.

Hello Low IQ Pendu, Wikipedia by itself is not a source. It is irrelevant who they quote as the information can be edited by anybody. I stand corrected.

Please stop making a fool out of yourself. You are clearly not educated beyond high school. Even that, I have my doubts.

From wiki itself

Wikipedia is not considered a credible source. Wikipedia is increasingly used by people in the academic community, from freshman students to professors, as an easily accessibletertiary source for information about anything and everything. However, citation of Wikipedia in research papers may be considered unacceptable, because Wikipedia is not considered a credible or authoritative source.^[1][2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

From Harvard

I think what Quantavius is alluding to here is that when looting was common amongst warring parties.

Another thing I might add is that the looting here occurred between the elites. Not the common man.

I thought by looting everybody meant resources. Now I understand that they're alluding to artifacts. How did artifacts create wealth for the average Indian when it was never in their hands to begin with? Even if it was in their hands, how much would it be wroth when shared out? A couple of pennies each?

What ever they British looted it was from the ruling class. The average Indian did not have that kind of wealth to begin with. To say that what the British took from the ruling class in India created their poverty is utter nonsense. It's like saying by the British taking the Koo Hi Noor from the Sikhs, the Sikhs became poor. This is how stupid and crazy it is.

All three of those are naturally occurring. The only thing that created them was God

Yes. Red Riding Hood was one day walking in the forest and she stumbled upon a combustion engine. LOL!

*sigh* not this again. Simply by writing LOL does not make your point correct. I don`t even know where to begin with what you have written. It`s no use trying to debate with a person who is ignorant of these matters. But for starters, read here and educate yourself of the basics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_India

Quote from the link:

you wrote:

Seriously, your lack of understanding history is depressing. The Sikh fight against the Muslims was not due to economics but due to religious persecution Sikhs faced at the hands of Muslims.

The amount of wealth your British masters looted from the Indian sub continent is about 600 trillion dollars in today estimation. Besides the wealth looted, millions died either due to war or famine:

I can't believe you're quoting WIKIPEDIA and calling me ignorant. Dear Johnny, Wikipedia is not a 'source'. It is not considered a source because anybody buffoon can write anything there. You can go there and write Sikhs are from Mars. Anybody can even go there and edit those articles. Do you know I can go into the part where you quoted and edit it? Wikipedia is not accepted anywhere as a source. You can't submit a University paper and quote Wikipedia. Not as a 'primary source' anyway. 600 trillion looted? Why not go for gold and 6 Zillion or even infinity?

What is a source? A source is where someone has done genuine research and that research is usually peer reviewed. It is usually done by historians submitting a thesis paper or writing a book and it is usually peer reviewed, much like scientific journals. To understand what I mean by a source, go buy any history book and you'll see at the table of contents or bibliography where the writer quotes his source.

By the way, GDP is not a measure of wealth. It is merely the output created by a nation. India today has far higher GDP then smaller countries like Finland or Singapore. Yet, Singaporeans and Finnish people have a far higher standard of living then the average Indian so much so, they are not even comparable anymore. Your entire premise that GDP equates wealth for the individual in a nation is false. You need to educate yourself on what constitutes wealth of the individual in a nation means.

As for the rest of your nonsense, it is complete utter bollocks. There are millions of books written of the everyday life of the average Indian. They were not living in the lap of luxury. The average Indian was poor. I won't even go to how the low caste lived. Indian society was a stratified society. If you were a leader or in royalty, your life was set. The others who had it ok were the priests and merchants. The rest lived very poor lives. Every single book or history mentions Indians as being poor. I have never read a single book depicting the average Indian as being rich. They were all poor. That is how langar in the Gurdwaras first started, to cater to the massive number of poor people who didn't have food on their table. If not for poor people, Sikhism would have died at it's infancy as they were the biggest number of converts.You are seriously deluding yourself on Indians being rich.

The religious persecution from the Muslims was tied with economics. Learn how things work. It is used as a means to attack and forfeit ones land and wealth against those who fought back.

Stop being a Low IQ Pendu. Learn to think instead of regurgitating the same lies and nonsense you heard from your close circle of Low IQ Pendu friends.

Go to umpteen museums in the UK, and see what lurks around in the private collections of the descendants of the people who invaded Panjab and you'll find hordes of evidence to the contrary.

You must be seriously twisted, plenty of English people openly admit that they went around the place robbing it blind.

I'm talking about resources such as oil, tin, rubber....stuff the Whites created. When the Sikh empire extended up to Kabul, did they never loot anything? No? How did the Koo Hi Noor end up in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's possession? Did the Hindu Rajas and Muslim Sultans who frequently invaded each others territories not loot from each other? They were such perfect angels?

Invading and looting each other was the standard back in the day. Every power did that. If you want to judge the British, you must judge based on the standards practiced by all powers back in the day and not today's standards.

This is what I mean by crazy, delusional, one track mind set. Unable to rationalize. Unable to have a balanced view of the world.

Before the British conquered Indian sub continent, India was the richest place in the world. India accounted for 25% of the world's GDP where as at the same time Europe combined was 21% of the worlds GDP. This was a time when the combined population of the Indian sub continent was evenly matched with Europe's. As the British took over the GDP of India also began to drastically decline.

They destroyed all of the indigenous industry while promoting their foreign made goods. Baba Ram Singh Namdhari had understood this way before anyone else and that is why he began a movement to boycott all British goods including their postal service because he knew this is where it would hurt them most. Unfortunately the Kuka movement under Baba Ram Singh ended prematurely due to the hot headedness of some of his followers who killed the butchers and gave an excuse to the British to finish the freedom activities of the Kuka Sikhs. Later the Brits turned them into a Gurudom.

By the time the British were done with India in 1947, India had hit rock bottom. There was nothing left to loot. When the British conquered India, it was the richest region in the world. When they left, it was as poor as sub saharan Africa.

The British were very smart in how they did things. They prevented all major powers in India access to the sea. When the Nizam of Hyderabad came under their protection the first thing they did was to cut access from the sea by a thin strip of land. The same was done with Tipu Sultan and Mysore state. They first cut him off from access to the sea so Mysore will be forced to be dependent on the British trade and communication. Same was even done with the Sikhs. They had prevented Sikhs from conquering Sindh which the Sikhs could have done very easily in a single winter's campaign. In 1947's so called independence, Sikhs were left with nothing.

LOL! Where are you getting these numbers from? There was no Wall Street or any entity recording GDP back in the day. India was not an exporting country either. Did they even know what was GDP back then? LOL! Please cite your source.

As for India being rich, where are you getting your fairy tales from? Even Indian history books mentions poverty. The general population were so poor and oppressed. Hinduism was so corrupt. Low caste treated so badly. That is why the Bhakti movement started which finally culminated in the creation of Sikhism. The Muslim invaders whose numbers were far smaller then Hindus were easily able to defeat the Hindus.That is because low caste Hindus and Buddhists joined the invaders and helped them win. Ghazni's top general was a Buddhists! The Buddhists were so enraged with the Hindus destroying Buddhism in India that they actually assisted the Muslims to invade and destroy the Hindus.

If people were living in a 'lap of luxury' prior to British arrival, why did we Sikhs fight the Muslims and Hindus for our own homeland? You entire post is complete, utter, bollocks. Please tell me, what did they 'steal' from India other then artifacts? The British just like the Muslims, were able to easily defeat the Indians because the Indians never had any unity. If they were all living in the type of wealth as per your fairy tales, they would have put up a united front against the British, like how the Chinese did.

I think the only time Indians lived good was when Buddhists were in power. Before and after that it was all downhill.

You are the perfect example of the crazy, wacko, delusional mind set that I mentioned in my earlier post. So out of touch with reality, so delusional.