Sakura

It's funny DallySingh we were talking about this recently. Tyrone, more than likely a black male. Wander if this was a hate crime. Any updates with the motive? I searched google but couldn't find anything.

The difference between us and blacks being that there's an element of fear the white man feels about black people, that simply isn't there when it comes to us.

I've thought about this too. I reckon it could also be a guilty conscience thing about the past i.e. slavery. They go out of the way to show they are not racist to them because of the collective guilty conscience.

Why do you think we're singled out in the example you gave above, whilst other races fly under the radar? I can't imagine it's anything to do with weakness as a race, because the Chinese or the Jews are hardly powerhouses in the UK. Is there an element of envy; the general assumption that we're hard workers and we get on with stuff, whilst having our own language, as well as other impenetrable barriers that are difficult for outsiders to overcome?

Me and my half white and half indian friend always talk about this. It's so deep. One of his reasons is that the British conquered India but the Chinese didn't get conquered hence they have more respect for the Chinese which I'm not sure I agree with.

I reckon the main reason is this. Brits like to think of themselves as very open and accepting and tolerant. The thing is, they are not, unless you completely assimilate. For them, integration is not enough. They want you to completely lose everything about your culture/religion. Only then, you may be accepted as much as Dwayne the kala.

There is a massive difference between integration and assimilation but when they talk about integration, what they are really talking about is assimilation.

Even the Chinese, they have english names etc and they don't have any blatant religious/cultural clothing like we do in this country.

Yeah, you've got to read each situation. Just in the past day or two I've had about 3 cases of people staring me right in my eyeballs. I think they were testing me out. One was even some young white b1tch on the tube.

Watch out for mixed race twats too. A lot of them have white mothers (A LOT of west Indian men have jungle fever!) who I think fill their heads up with anti 'paki' stuff about our lot not integrating and whatnot.

I remember teaching this mixed-raced girl a few years ago from mixed mainly white and black town. She was very inquisitive about other cultures and communities, including mine. When I showed her that other communities routinely segregate themselves without all the hate that 'asians' face, like Jews, Greeks and Chinese people, she was like "Yeah, I see it now."

Towards the end she turned around and said to me one day: "I'm so glad I met you, because before I had this really negative impression of 'asians' from what everyone had told me about them."

Point is, there will be hordes of kids who haven't had their preconceptions challenged and have been taught these views about brown folk.

Yes mate, I'm glad you said this. I noticed mixed race people to be some of the worst offenders. I mean, they don't know where they stand. They can have the race hate from their white side and then the aggressiveness and ghettoness from the black side. Makes it a perfect cocktail to take out on us browns.

I remember when I was in college (I was a bit less confrontational then, but even then was at times) I was speaking to a mixed race girl from my class on the bus. Her friend (a mixed race guy) came on the bus and started chatting to her. When I spoke to her, he asked me what I want. The convo got started between them again before I had time to say anything (tbh, I was taken a bit back by it and didn't know what to say). I then heard him whisper to her 'don't talk to him (me), he is not our kind'. He didn't say it to my face he mumbled it to her. I regret not confronting him about it to this day (he was just talking to her about how he'd been arrested so I reckon I may have been a bit intimated by that). But if it happened today, I wouldn't give a toss.

Losers, and they call us racists!

Yes mate, I'm glad you said this. I noticed mixed race people to be some of the worst offenders. I mean, they don't know where they stand. They can have the race hate from their white side and then the aggressiveness and ghettoness from the black side. Makes it a perfect cocktail to take out on us browns.

Not saying blacks can't have the race hate as they can and they do

You must learn when to keep eye contact and when to break it. Too soon and you'll come across as a coward; too late and you'll invite unnecessary trouble, especially if the other guy is a bit touchy. Knowing when to do it comes with experience. For yourself, always keep a neutral expression on your face, making you difficult to read. A perpetual scowl can be as foolish as a constant gormless grin.

Yeah I'm fine when having convos with people eye contact wise. But I'm just saying generally, I think people look at each other too much anyway (myself included at times) which can lead to all sorts of feelings of 'why is that person looking at me', from both sides. What I want to do is just be more focused on my internal thoughts and state of presence.

Also, I think with a lot of these working class types from estates and what not, they mistake humbleness for fear. I think that probably comes into it too.

A lot of them lack manners and if you show any, they probably see it as a sign of weakness.

I haven't met many rastas but yeah I can imagine them being different. I hope I am not giving off any pappu vibes lol. Because I'm one of the only very few Indians I know who is ready to fight anyone.

I'm thinking if it's a case of they give these vibes (wanting to start something) to every Singh whether he's a p'''y or not but I notice it more because I'm more conscious of it and looking out for it?

I get similar vibes from Pakistanis which I'm sure many other Singhs do too.

Anyway I guess the best way to handle it is just to be more present in my own head and just make less eye contact with strangers. This I'm working on. Otherwise I'd be getting into fights all the time.

We both know that a lot of apnay are complete pajamay; that's the root of the problem in my eyes.

Yeah too many pushovers in our community, not all but probably the majority. They need to be more confrontational but I think a lot of us have been brought up to think having a school fight is the biggest sin in the world. Oh, it's gonna be the end of your future, career, reputation blah blah blah. I remember hearing this when I was younger.

Just say Waagawaaaaaaaan blud

Lol

There are plenty of black converts all over Europe! The one that murdered the young Soldier Rigby, was also a black mad muslimist. There are African muslimists too, from African countries! Why not sort them out first?

Not really relevant to the topic is it. I'm talking about regular West Indians and Africans, British or non British born and the reasons why they may have issues against Sikhs. I highly doubt all the ones if any I'm talking about have been Muslim.

One other thing: certain west Indian thinking sort of inculcates a short of violent contempt towards perceived weaklings.

Care to expand on this? Could be the one of the reasons. It also makes it racism because they equate an entire race with an attribute and then have contempt as you explain to people who harbour that perceived attribute. The one I confronted was not expecting me to come up to his face. I'm sure he'll think twice next time about giving it large with someone like me.

He must not be aware of Rastafarians whom also wear headgear/turbanesque

Ignore them, most are always looking for trouble.

Who's not aware? I am aware of Rastas but they are very few compared to Sikhs especially in the UK. Also, I'm not saying it's purely the turban. I think being Indian with the Turban is what may be setting them off (the ones who get set off).

Yeah. I'm also wandering if it's anything particularly against pugh wale rather than just Indians. Because every now and then I just tie a joora behind my head and don't wear a pugh. I was in fact doing this for a while. I didn't get the sort of looks and feeling from them as I do when I wear a pugh.

I have a theory that some of them are jealous or even intimidated by it in that we have kept this part of our culture but they lost theirs? I don't know. Then even my other theory about being seen as goody two shoe soft targets because of being religious?

I wanted to know if anyone else has had experiences of racist/funny reactions from blacks. Out of all the ethnicities in London, it is black people I feel I get the funniest looks from when wearing a dastar. I very nearly got into a fight with one once too because he kept looking at me (mind you I kept looking at him too). I have experienced similar looks throughout the years when wearing a dastar or patka from black men and women alike. Once a black woman was properly eyeballing me when I was younger in a patka.

I saw an incident at the Nagar Kirtan after party in Southall once where a black man was being abusive to all the Sikhs. Then I heard from someone I worked with (a Sikh) that a black man randomly attacked him at the Vaisakhi celebrations another year (he bit his face for no reason). Then I remember seeing another black man during the actual day parade another year walking through the crowd like he wanted to beat someone up. Absolute chip on his shoulder. The nerve on this guy (he was surrounded by thousands of Sikhs). And then I remember someone posted something on this forum once about an incident at the Nagar Kirtan up north where a man aggressively drove through the crowd and hit or nearly hit someone with his car. Again, he turned out to be black.

I am the only once who has noticed this or does there seem to be some sort of issue they have against Sikhs? Or is it all in my head?

With all the recent Islamophobic attacks, funnily, a good chunk of them have been from black people. Again, todays news shows two black women beating up a muslim woman in Southwark on a bus. Mind you, all the incidents I have described happened way before the recent wave of Islamophobia.

I don't know what their issues are if there are any (maybe they are jealous on some level) that we have kept our culture/heritage? Or perceive us to be weak targets (religious good boys they can bully or something like that?) I don't know. I'm perplexed.

I don't think anything we can do is going to prevent those that are determined to attack, attacking.

Look at the US for example, straight after 9/11 Bush himself had a widely publicised 'round table' meeting with a big bunch of dastaar wearing sardars. When Sodhi got killed it was all over the media too. There are darn organisations who are solely dedicated to educating people about Sikhs in the US and legally supporting those that are targeted. Yet, still attacks and abuse take place judging by the periodical photos of some cab-driver whose been battered by someone screaming 'Osama muthaf**ka!' or something like that.

I feel that ground realities mean that some of us are going to unavoidably be collateral damage. My experiences of endemic racism has taught me that blokes (and females!) being strong and holding their ground quickly gets that community the most recognition and respect. This other way you're suggesting is plainly ineffectual.

Our people have forget how to be men. lol

Lol, I'm not suggesting we use that as the only way. The fact that Sikhs are still getting attacked after Sikh Organisations trying to educate the masses doesn't mean it isn't working.

I don't think there is really much to debate here. I feel you're making a point out of nothing. I'm saying when Sikhs have done, do, and will, when the situation comes about (such as being attacked due to mistaken identity) they should use that opportunity to say they are Sikhs (make it clear rather than saying they are not terrorists). That's all I'm talking about.

The other point you mention I agree with i.e. being strong and holding their ground quickly gets that community the most recognition and respect. I'm all for that.

oy vey ! I meant say that phrase....geddit ? then of course you give the second chance if they are determined, the third time you feed them their teeth.

Ok no worries

It's like you are so scared of being bullied by honkys about being a Muslim, you're running around waving your hands like:

"Please! Please don't hurt me! I'm not a Muslim!"

What do you want? Giant posters with specific details regarding who is Muslim and who is Sikh to guide ignorant twats? lol!

The way I see it. One way or another, we are going to get dragged into whatever bull5hit happens from whichever side. Better to be like 'Screw all of you', and mentally and physically prepare for all possible eventualities.

Wrong mate! I'm just concerned about fellow Sikhs (and even innocent Muslims) being targeted for mistaken identity, nothing more deeper than that.

I'm saying that when incidents do arise, and you get Sikhs coming on News etc to describe what happened, they always say we are not terrorists. Funnily, this actually makes them look like Muslims. I've seen this many a time. They should use the opportunity to directly state they are not Muslims (and add we are not saying attacks on innocent Muslims is justified) as this will prevent further attacks (not all, but many) on Sikhs in the future. Instead they say, oh we are not terrorist, it does nothing to educate people.

I got to say: what you are saying seems REALLY reactionary and cowardly. This is no personal attack btw.

Hahaha, how mate? I just don't get it?

I'm just being passionate about what I said first i.e. that Sikhs should flat out say we are not Muslim. This other guy then makes it personal and petty i.e. 'get a life'.

He could have just easily disagreed with me without using the get a life part.

Cowardly? I don't get the use of that word in this context, maybe I'm thick I don't know.

how about saying I'm a human so is everyone else , get a life

Get a life? I've got one thanks. If Sikhs like you carry on being so PC, you won't have a life for too much longer.

I have nothing against Muslims, hence me putting in the statement after, all Muslims aren't terrorists. I don't have to do that but I would if I was put in the position because I care about innocent Muslims being targeted as well.

Chill with the personal attacks!

I'm all for Sikhs saying flat out 'I am not a Muslim'. I've seen too many times when some prominent Sikhs have come out with quotes on their social media and even t shirts where they say 'We are not terrorists'. This does nothing at all in my opinion. In fact it makes them look even more Muslim in a way. Because even Muslims are saying that. We need a Sikh/Sikhs to have the balls just to plainly say 'I/We are not Muslims'.

I can see how some people may get offended by that but so be it. I don't see it as purposefully trying to offend Muslims or even by accident. I just see it as logical. If by saying flat out we are not Muslims, we are massively reducing the chances of attacks on innocent Sikhs in the future. Saying we are not terrorists does nothing.

By saying we are not Muslims does not mean we are saying it is ok to attack Muslims even though it may be interpreted that way.

What we can follow up with is 'I am not a Muslim, having said that, all Muslims are not terrorists'. Something like that.

All I'm saying is that British Born Indians and even Indians in India (excluding kurtha pyjama wearing people) and practically everyone across the globe is wearing western clothing. They don't use Indians because they think we are not cool and do not fit in and yeah it won't look good to the whites and blacks (this is the problem). They know loads of us buy their clothes.

They don't mind us working in the shops because it doesn't really matter, especially as you pointed out, this is more of the case in areas where there is a high asian population so they know most of the customers are going to be Asian. But this is completely different to the topic of using as to model their clothes on the websites and adverts etc. Then they really do care and segregate us. These are the words of my half white friend too and another mixed race man I met once (half indian half white).

It's a shame more Indians don't see the blatant segregation that's going on because if they did, then we could create a mass petition or do something about it. I've only met a handful of Indians who are clued up about this. Not trying to put you down or anything, just trying to make you see what's going on.

" Retailers and companies only put on the market they are aiming for that they think are most likely to buy their products. "

@ Sakura Ji. What I meant by this is, they know a diversity of people will buy their products, but when they are advertising they are aiming for non Indians, in my opnion. I think it's because if they show Indian models then that will only attract Indian people, and they ' think ' that others will not buy as much from them. So what do they do? They show white models and black or mixed race, and ' think ' they have covered all, including Indians, Chinese etc and whatever community.

The keyword here is ' think '. Their ' think ' is not the same as the laymans ' think '. They are only interested in making profit. So they don't care about who to portray as a model, but how to make money and they will use whatever method that will.

But I've observed that Next seems to have more Indians in it whenever I go in, including the staff too, that are Amritdhari (male and females) with dastaars. It's really nice to see this.

But that could be because that I'm from a highly populated Asian area.

All I'm saying is that British Born Indians and even Indians in India (excluding kurtha pyjama wearing people) and practically everyone across the globe is wearing western clothing. They don't use Indians because they think we are not cool and do not fit in and yeah it won't look good to the whites and blacks (this is the problem). They know loads of us buy their clothes.

They don't mind us working in the shops because it doesn't really matter, especially as you pointed out, this is more of the case in areas where there is a high asian population so they know most of the customers are going to be Asian. But this is completely different to the topic of using as to model their clothes on the websites and adverts etc. Then they really do care and segregate us. These are the words of my half white friend too and another mixed race man I met once (half indian half white).

I think this has a lot of potential advantages too.

Forces us to think on our feet. Black people in America were (are!) largely excluded by the mainstream white media/industry out there but that didn't stop them creating their own powerful representations in music and movies and fashion which have become majorly successful and influential. THAT'S the way to go.

We should cater to the massive global 'brown market'. When that is successful honkys will be kissing our ar5e for a piece of the action. Instead what you are suggesting (when we break it down) essentially entails us kissing their ar5e to be 'let in' so to speak.

They aren't going to stop being racist. Even if we get 'let in', it will on their terms promoting a vision of our society that suits them (not necessarily us). We have to deal with that and work around it.

I disagree that what I'm suggesting entails us kissing their backside to be let in. It's just not the way I see it. Maybe I don't see it as much as you do as ''us vs them''. I just see it as one culture where every colour of person should be represented but they obviously don't see it like that and from your posts, you don't seem to see it like that either. And I think this is where a big part of the problem lies on both sides.

About the blacks creating their own representations it wasn't completely their own culture, it would have been if they sang and rapped in their own language but they were singing and rapping in English. I just can't see punjabi music or whatever taking off to the level of Hip Hop because of this.

dallysingh101- I agree with some of your points particularly about the transportable Sikh/Identity economy which would be awesome. But I'm talking about Asians in general too whether they're Sikh or not. The segregation the western media puts in for us Browns similar to what the East Asians in the US face is clear racism and not fair.

I think it's weak for us to look to them to represent us in this way. People like Jay Sean has shown us that we don't necessarily need whitey.

In today's day and age, with a massive potential global audience including India, we can (and should) circumvent them.

I'm going to have to disagree on that one. I want myself and every other Indian to be considered a part of British Culture including everything that comes with it, music, sport, fashion etc and I think we all should. We need to be included in everything that is happening i.e. representation in fashion for example amongst whites, blacks and everyone else. I don't see it as needing them to represent us, I just see it we should be represented in the things that is happening in this country.

Jay Sean could and should have been much bigger than he is. If he was black he would be 10 times as popular as he is now.