Akritghan

puratan singhs and singhniya used to have nitnem of das granthi and panj granthi

vahigurooooo

no i didnt point it out to them :umm: i wasnt sure how to approach them cos i only saw them in Maharajs darbar and didnt feel comfortable interrupting them

I think the Gutkay Sahib youre talking about were published by Baba Darshan Singh Mallewal who's doing Seva in Calgary. Belive they were published in malaysia

yeah they were published there

if u wanna see them ill bring my copy to the barsi

i think this topic needs a bump cos it happens all too often

yes...i cant remember whether it was gur or guroo tho

VJKK VJKP!

i would just like to do a benti to sangat...i went to a programme recently in southall and the singhs doing kirtan (youth) were singing the first part of ardaas -taken from SRI CHANDI DI VAAR

PLEASE DO NOT ADD GUR IN FRONT OF THE GURUS NAMES BECAUSE U ARE CHANGING GURBANI...WE SHOULD LEAVE THINGS THE WAY IN WHICH MAHARAJ WROTE THEM...I WAS QUITE SURPRISED COS THESE SINGHS HAVE HAD SANTHIYA FROM TAKSALI SINGHS AND DONE SANGAT OF MAHAPURAKHS...DONT DO IT!

i know the intention of the singhs was to praise Our Guru Sahibs but u are changing gurbani (even if that isnt ur intention)

sorry for any mistakes...i know nothing

VJKK VJKP!

lol Maharaj wrote everything in RAAG apart from Japji Sahib

so everything in Gurbaanee is hukam right

really weird aint it hw we pick and choose what hukams we wanna follow....if u dont sing kirtan in raag??ur ignoring gurbani

cos bilaval mahala 5 is gurbani....the word bilaval is ur sabad guroo...the word is there for a reason...bt yeah we knw more then maharaj so we can ignore it....(that was sarcasm btw)

and as for raag being hard to learn

of course it is...but it is as important as santhiya and shastar vidiya

and gursikhs should be skilled in all fields

I have seen many Sikhs wearing this red and yellow thread on their wrists, mainly in England. What does this thread symbolize?

lol i think its a punjabi thing tied on everyone present on ppls maiya-where they rub haldhi and stuff on bride or grooms face and arms before their wedding

well london met refuses to be ranked on the rankings because it believes that the government should be ranking unis not comissioned newspapers

well to say its the same as tvu is wrong

depends on what course u do...im doing english lit and one of the reasons i came to london met is cos the standard of teaching english is fantastic cos the lecturers are wicked and lots of english lit students have come out of london met with 2:1s and 1sts

when looking at any rankings on other unis-do it by looking at subjects

tvu may be bad but its on the of the best unis to go to if u wanna go into nursing/midwiferey

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/reviews/reports/subjIndex.asp

use this to loook at quality of teaching at unis subject wise

nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

dont let it be posted!!!

We can never do full satkaar to gurbani,but we can do our best!!!practically every guroo ghar sells them!!!or where are u from?im sure we can get one to u

my mother works in royal mail...so wud u have DHUR KI BANI thrown about and put on the floor??

BEADBI!!! no other word for it

yeah and also kuljeet singhs katha was practically 2 hrs long...this is just 75% of it...please anyone got the full katha???

haha. :whs:

somethings guru ji does for a reason,and no matter how much we try to understand his wonderful ways..we never wil!

sabh tere choj viddaan sabh terakaarano

Everything is Your wonderful play; the whole creation is Yours

AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!

I never said he was a leading guy,but a big BUT the majority of the Panth is split on Dasam Granth and will be so until a time comes when everyone agrees on it,if he did say things about SGGSJ like you have quoted then he is tottaly wrong as well on that.on the Vadbhag issues she never had different views as the whole place was a cult,where as in Slough its Singh Sabha Gurdwara not a cult centre,the woman had was doin beadbi of Mahraj with hindu idols,undearwear and so on we all know what happened.Akal Thakt can deal with the meat issue if anyone is to take charge of that its akal thakt he can eat meat if he wishes so the Sikh leadership seem to be sending mixed messages on the issue of meat,but thats for another day.At the end of the day this is going to have bad reprucssions for the UK Sikh Nation ,shooting Deputy Mayors with Cross bows,if anything I 1st suspset some soorma like i have said above who thinks hes a Sikh Warrior in the 17th century.

Its on the main news on yahoo as well

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081125/tuk-de...ow-45dbed5.html

The Mirror

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?sa=t&amp...iOhkbBs0aRY02lQ

BBC Berkshire

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?sa=t&amp...CQS__vfbN_-dcvw

Sky News

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?sa=t&amp...ovu322Ud_-Sy-NQ

Other news

http://news.google.co.uk/news?ie=UTF-8&amp...01252&hl=en

Sikhs should resolve their issues in private without using crossbows you know what kind of climate we live in ,in the UK at the moment

no i was referring to the article which called him 'a leading member of the sikh community'...and akaal takht dont allow ppl who are anti dasam granth to do parchaar in punjab gurdwaras...so why is he even in the committee..cos akaal takht makes their decsions FOR ALL GURDWARAS(EVEN ABROAD)...and he does beadbi....we have seen him take dasam granth senchia from a gyanis room in guroo ghar and picking them up angrily throwing them into a bag and walking off with them.THAT IS BEADBI AND AS BAD AS THAT DERA WOMAN...if he was a hindu everyone would be talking abt the RSS but when its a 'singh' in our kaum nobody points the finger

Extremist cowards I can understnad Jaswant Thekedar,but Bal is a totally different person just cos he has different views on issues in the panth,they get a cross bow and shoot him which soorma came up with that idea?Was it the puratan way of launching an attack in ,modern day slough - pathetc hope they are apprehended and arressted

he is not a leading man in the panth...he called japji sahib da rol 'brahminvaad' etc and he believes that u dont need to have lots of ramaley for Guroo Maharaj, he thinks Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is just 'elahi giaan' to quote him, and he disagrees that we dont need to do so much satkaar for Guroo Maharaj and Gurbaanee...he thinks its ok to put senchia on top of each other,place them on shelves in the library)where ppl with shoes come in and no need to place ramaley on senchia and disagrees that by placing them on top of one another, u make Guroo Maharaj's saroop...seeing as u and ur friends were at the vadbhag singh dera protest...that woman who was running the dera..would u say she was just a different persons who simply had different views on issues in the panth or that she was doin hardcore beadbi...he also promotes meat eating and eats meat himself (u cannot call KFC jatka unless u kill the animal urself rite?)...sarpanch would u say he doesnt do beadbi....and a sikh activist????all he did was break the windows of the indian embassy in 1984...vah vah!isnt that something that the rioters did in delhi nov 84???

he also does nindiya of bana and sarabloh bibek and says they are unecessary...i am not condoning the attack....but if ur gonna do nindiya of Maharaj, gursikhs and Mahapurakhs then he will have to reap wat he has sown as we all do

leading sikh in the panth...yeah right...*rolls eyes*

and if akaal takht wnt allow ppl like darsan ragis in guroo ghar do parchar why is this nindak of Dasam Granth Maharaj allowed to be pardhaan...to quote him "tenu patha dasam granth vich kina gandh aa"

is it the same bal that bees at slough Gurdvara? same anti dasm granth, anti gurmat parchaar supporter? or is it somebody else?

yes its the same guy

The following is by Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji Gurduara Tapoban Sahib:

According to what I have learned in the sangat of Gursikhs and from books by Gursikhs like Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, here is the procedure we should follow at amritvela:

1) We should get up at amritvela.

2) We should try to clean our stomach (through excretion) before doing ishnaan.

3) We should brush our teeth (or use daatun).

4) Tie our keski to our waist, wrap Siri Sahib (kirpaan) around keski and also keep your kanga there. Open our kesh.

5) Use full cold water (no hot water at all) and wash your hair and face. In Canada, water is ice-cold in summer and winter. The feeling after taking shower in cold water is amazing. Consciousness reaches it's maximum. Abhyaas goes automatically.

6) After washing your hair, soak out water and comb your hair and beard. Wash your kanga and place in in your jooRa (hair knot). Tie your keski ( a new one, a fresh one) on your head.

7) Wash your Siri Sahib and Gaatra or use your second set of washed gaatra and Siri Sahib and tie it around your head.

8) Now do ishnaan of your body, again with pure cold water. Such is the affect of cold water (ice cold water) that automatically swaas swaas simran abhyaas starts in full force. The feeling after ishnaan with cold water is undescribible (beyond description).

9) Keep separate towels for your body and hair. Use your body wala towel and dry your body.

10) Remove your kachherra and ensure that the right leg is removed first. Keep the wet kachhera in your left leg for now.

11) Take your new (fresh) kachhera (must be white kachherra, long till knees) and place your right foot or leg in the new kachherra. Now remove your left leg from the wet kachherra and wear your left leg in the new kachherra.

12) All the time while we do ishnaan we must do either Siri Jap jee Sahib or Vaheguru Gurmantra or Mool Mantra. Otherwise Guru Sahib does not accept ishnaan dee sewa.

Bhul chukk dee maafi.

Daas,

Kulbir Singh

wicked reply

you also should use a separate towel for ur body, face and kes

ghorandhar jeeo,

I agree with everything you've said, one thing I wanted to add is that the way raags in general are sung have changed/developed since the times of guru sahibaans, even in Indian shastari sangeet the raag system has changed/developed, the elitist don't like the infiltration of the vaja by the british in their sangeet either because the original way was through tanti saaz, and nowadays shastri sangeet in India is not very common per the masses, and its no different in Sikhi today either.

But going back to the development of the raag system, same way with raags in SGGSJ the way of singing them in their specified raag has been slightly modified because the parampara has not been documented in writing, at the same time it can't really be put on paper as its music, and must be taught/passed down from generation to generation, similar to seena baseena rehat that has been passed down like it was to Bhai Avtaar Singh jee, who was born in 1925 where his father, Bhai Sahib Jwala Singh Ji was an accomplished Ragi, who imparted his knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet to Bhai Sahib Avtar Singh Ji and his older brother Bhai Sahib Gurcharan Singh Ji, who together were the eleventh generation exponents of gurbani keertan as per maryada from the time of our guru sahibaans.

So going back to the topic, I've seen there are two points of discussions, some feel as though its not important to sing in raag because you should connect with the bani being sung in keertan, and some would argue that saying, the correct way of connecting to gurbani in keertan should be through the correct way of singing the shabad.

Lets look at it this way, why is there a need to do santhya? To learn the correct way of pronouncing gurbani and understanding where to pause and where not to pause, which is the primary reason many mispronounce gurbani, the same goes for singing keertan, there's a a correct way of performing keertan, I don't always do keertan in raag or nidharat raag for that matter, but I've been told that there's a raag for almost every tune. The point is, if there's a correct way of reciting gurbani, there has to be a correct way of singing keertan. Today, we pick and choose what we want to beleive maybe that's where the problem is.

u summed it up perfectly bhaji vahiguroo.....

kirtan by akj is a starter, a very good starter, especially the naam simran they do. But raag kirtan is a higher form of kirtan than the akj style, so its a kinda progression in kirtan. my progression to raag kirtan was :

1. qawwali

2. akj-style

3.raag kirtan.

now i listen to raag kirtan, the previous 2 play no part, or very little part, in my life. I feel that i have progressed to the highest form of kirtan, the kirtan that Guru Ji actually gave to us himself.

Guru Ji has given us the shabd, raag and the saaj. Guru has made kirtan perfect by doing this.

Today at the Gurdwara the kirtani started by playing Ghol Ghumayee Laalna in Raag Tukhari. It was amazing to sit in sangat and sing to this. I hope that you all have the Bhaag to listen to Raag Kirtan.

aaahhhh i wish i could have listened

I think that the bottom line should be that whatever style/tune of Kirtan joins as with Guru Sahib, Gurbani, than that is valid. The fact is that many youth and adults are going away from Sikhi. The life blood of a Sikh is Gurbani, so whatever joins us with Guru Sahib is valid and no one should criticize it. I know many youth, including myself, who would never listen to Kirtan if it was done only in normal raagi style. But for example, AKJ style Kirtan has affected so many people and has gotten them to listen to Kirtan on a daily basis and even learn Kirtan because of it, especially youth who normally would not listen to Kirtan.

So I think whatever style of Kirtan joins you to GurShabad, be it Raag or other, then it is all valid. What right does anyone have to criticize this?

yes but ALL Gurbaanee is hukam for us....so its alright to ignore Maharaj's hukam??....you can only join with Guroo Sahib when u follow ALL OF his Hukam....and if people dont want to listen to raag kirtan then the fault is not in the raagi but in the person....teekya i agree that maybe when u get into sikhi alot of the youth listen to kirtan that is non-raag...but if u really wanna progress in ur sikhi then ull do ur ATMOST to follow ALL of Guroo Maharaj's Hukam...

does anyone disagree that Raag is not Hukam?cos ALL of Gurbaanee is Hukam....sikhi aint pick and mix.....for e.g. yeah i will keep my kes but ill bleach it;thats not removing kes is it?(just an example)

im not saying that raag is more mahaan then the Sabad but if Maharaj wants us to sing gagan dhumama baajaooo in raag maroo instead of simple tune then why do we ignore Maharaj??

erm well how much money do u think raagis in the uk get?

i can tell you...£70 maybe £80 if they are lucky....they have families to support....girls to marry.....i do know of kirtanees who refuse to do kirtan cos they dont get paid enough...that is wrong...but can u imagine living of £80 a week???even if the money is being sent back home it still aint enough....kirtan is all they do for a living...if ur going to moan about giving kirtaniya money then why dont u try doing kirtan for nothings....have u seen they ways in which gyanis are forced to live....some of them (for e.g. slough singh sabha), the gyanis are cramped into one small room with duvets on the floor...and u reckon they're put on pedestals?....they did offer them a house but this house didnt even have heating...they have to spend the majority of their lives away from their families

they should be put on a pedestal...i mean they have devoted their whole lives to singing Gurbaanee....and they should sit higher then the sangat....because anyone who was reciting Gurbaanee was put on a higher platform then the human Guroos themselves

Sant Isahr Singh did kirtan in Dharna which is totally difrent from gurbani kirtan.

ahhh but sant baba isher singh jee was a brahmgiaanee....bramhgiaanee aap nirankaar....we aint even worthy to be the dust of baba jees servants' servants' feet....sorry if i was rude in my previous posts but raag should be learnt by everyone...alot of youth say raag makes them go to sleep.....and that really hurts...and that also implies that the youth dont listen to the Gurbaanee kirtan itself but the tune....

for example gagan dhumama baajaaoo....thats in raag maroo right?the raag reflects the meaning and strengthens the impact to those singing and listening....so imagine that sabad being sung with a tune from kuch kuch hota hai?wouldnt the impact on the sangat be nearly lost?

raag is in Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj for a reason...it is Gurbaanee...and is it right that we should ignore this part of Gurbaaneee? cos that is what we are doing?

im guessing that everyone agrees that all of Dhur Ki Baanee is Hukam for everyone to follow...but its ok to cut that bit out????isnt that beabdi in itself?yet we shout and scream at naamdhaaress for changing or ignoring tuks of Gurbaanee.....yet its alright for us to do the same?

we are stupid people and think we know better then our Guroo when we dont make the effort to learn raag...anyone here who doesnt have the opportunity to learn raag...pm me and ill put u in touch with a few people who could teach u-not naamdhaarees dont worry...

and also why do u want to learn the vaaja when Guroo Sahib has blessed us with instruments such as sarangi, dilruba, taus, rabab saranda? we say that we play the vaja cos its easier to learn....i guess that i dont have to learn gurmukhi either cos i can just read the english translation.....same thing isn't it?cos we know more than our Guroo hunna?(thats sarcasm btw)

p.s i am a hypocrite cos i aint had a tanti saaj or santhiya lesson for over a month

It's quite simple, raagi's sing filmi tunes because when they do that people give them more money. Also, I have been told by MANY raagi's that when they do raag kirtan for a while sangat gets up and leave, so they keep shabada sung in raag very short.

I think the problem lies with us, not them. We don't appreciate raags anymore.

PS. not ALL raagi's do kirtan for money, before someone mentions that <_<

yes definately...raagis have families as well....the problem lies with us....raag is in Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj for a reason...it is Gurbaanee...and is it right that we should ignore this part of Gurbaaneee? cos that is what we are doing?

im guessing that everyone agrees that all of Dhur Ki Baanee is Hukam for everyone to follow...but its ok to cut that bit out????isnt that beabdi in itself?yet we shout and scream at naamdhaaress for changing or ignoring tuks of Gurbaanee.....yet its alright for us to do the same?

we are stupid people and think we know better then our Guroo when we dont make the effort to learn raag...anyone here who doesnt have the opportunity to learn raag...pm me and ill put u in touch with a few people who could teach u-not naamdhaarees dont worry...

and also why do u want to learn the vaaja when Guroo Sahib has blessed us with instruments such as sarangi, dilruba, taus, rabab saranda? we say that we play the vaja cos its easier to learn....i guess that i dont have to learn gurmukhi either cos i can just read the english translation.....same thing isn't it?cos we know more than our Guroo hunna?(thats sarcasm btw)

p.s i am a hypocrite cos i aint had a tanti saaj or santhiya lesson for over a month

vjkk vjkf jee

guru kirpa wer gna b launchin a site caled Gurmat Literatures , which will be having most pothia in pdf and word files for sangat

a few examples of the pothia and gutka sahibs we will b having..

- Gurbani paat Darshan

- khalsa jeevan and Gurmat rehat maryada

- Gutka Sahibs and pothiaa

coming soon!

vjkk vjkf

thats wicked seva bro