PAL 07

The below taken from www.allaboutsikhs.com would emphasize that Guru Nanak Dev Ji bestowed the Udasi sect to Sri Chand. Guru Nanak Dev ji left Baba Siri Chand ji in charge of Kartarpur during his later Udasis and following his final Udasi bestowed the dress and duty of Udasi (Pilgrim/Missionary) on Baba Siri Chand ji himself. Thus Baba Siri Chand ji was given the responsibility of uniting the various Sadhu samaj (ascetic schools) and integrating them with the "householders" (devotees who led a worldly life). However my personal opinion is that the Udasi's just like the Nihang sect have their roots deep in ancient times, as Nihangs such as Baba Nihal Singh Ji jatherdar of Taruna Dal will confirm that the Nihangs were the foot soldiers of Mata Durga during her battles with the demons. Similarly the Udasi sect is ancient. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Ji in relation to creating Nihangs, Guru Nanak Dev Ji served only to further glorify the various sects

Very interesting topic, at last you actually learn something from this site - You can see how there are varied accounts of Sikh History. If you listen to the katha cited by only five sant ji describes an incident where there is a contradiction between bhai gurdas ji's account of history and the historical accounts contained in Siri Guru Grath Sahib. listen at minutes 2.36 http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Bhai_Gurdas_Dian_Varan/Vaar_26/Sant.Gurbachan.Singh--Vaar.26.Pauri.33.Baal.Jatee.Hai.Sirichand.mp3 In relation to the fact that Sri Chand didn't want Guru Angad Ji to be respected as Guru, this is different to the book i am currently reading. Personally i would agree with Sant Ji. Good veechar lets keep it up

No he used a large wooden staff he used to make sukha - since he had no knowledge of shastar vidiya. It is important to note that because he had so much bhagti and introspection (from meditation) he was able to fight in the battle with great valour. singh559 - i dont know what to say about you, i think you would do great on tapoban forum

Sikhi to the max has got a terrible amount of mistakes in Born 1494 and died 1643 AD at the age of 149 years. Sri Chand studied Sanskrit and himself wrote two books namely Aarta and Matra Sahib. Aarti has the nature of Aarti which is a special prayer also done in Kirtan form in evenings At temples across India. Here Sri Chand has praised Akal Purakh and his father Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Chand had full respect for Guru Angad Dev Ji and saw in him the light of his father. He would address Guru Angad Dev Ji as "swaroop ji" (Professor Vishan Das, Tawareek Punjab P.105) Matra Sahib is a very short book of only 78 sentences in which Sri Chand gives his teaching to the world.

It is a well known fact that Baba Buddah Ji gave Sri Hargobind Ji the miri piri talwars and were there Ustad. Also Gurbani clearly states that Guru Nanak Dev Ji came to the world with knowledge of all the arts wheras previous avtars had limited knowledge i.e. Krishan had 16 guns and Ram Chandra had 14 and previous to him they all had less Gun. So to suggest Guru Nanak Dev Ji had no knowledge of shahstar vidiya would be incorrect. My opinion is that the term shastar vidiya is a generic term referring to many styles of martial arts. For example the term percussion can refer to Tabla, Pakhavaj, Mridang, Dhol etc. Gatka is the term referring to the Sikhi martial art form but this is derived from kalaripayattu which is an ancient martial form (see below) It is important to remember that a lot of Sikhism is infact been in existence since ancient times. For example the sangeet vidiya in Gurbani has been in existence way before the Guru's times. When you say Gatka today - the showbiz chopping up of melons comes to mind. But i believe that this is the result of years and years of decay of the true vidiya. In terms of gatka v shastar vidiya well first of all what exactly does shastar vidiya mean ?? martial arts taught in the army, jeet kun do, shaoilin martial arts? Personally if you look at good Gatka Ustads like Bhai Harjinder Singh or Bhai Gurtej Singh (resident s of UK) you will see that they are extremely formidable people and highly respected by other martail artists/formsand that they have worked hard and risen up to the top, the high end of gatka is an eccelectic form incorporating techniques from all other styles with the view to kill asap.

Just complete and utter rubbish !!!

Sikh History reinforces the idea that Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj and the Sikh Gurus enjoyed a deeply loving and intimate relationship. Baba Sri Chand Ji arranged the marriage of his nephew Baba Dharam Chand Ji. Guru Amardass Ji offered his son Bhai Mohan to Baba Sri Chand Ji. Guru Ramdass Ji came to visit Baba Sri Chand Ji and on Baba Ji’s suggestion changed the name of the holy town Ramdaspur or Ramdassar to Sri Amritsar. The Gur Partap Sooraj Parkash and Guru Twarikh Khalsa also give mention of Baba Sri Chand’s visit to Sri Amritsar. Baba Sri Chand Ji was seated and honoured on a high place. In Twarikh Guru khalsa. Gian Singh Ji writes ”Guru Ramdass Ji offered 1 horse and 500 Rupees unto Baba Sri Chand Ji and Baba Ji was very pleased at this offering. Baba Sri Chand Ji asked Guru Ramdass Ji“ Why have thou such a long beard?”.To which Guru Ramdass Ji answered “To wipe the feet of holy people like yourself” and Guru Ramdass Ji wiped Baba Sri Chand Ji’s feet with his beard. An annual offering of 500 rupees and a horse was offered to Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj every year by the household of the Sikh Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev Ji visited Baba Sri Chand Ji at Barath (Dist. Gurdaspur) and recited his composed 16 Ashtpadis. Baba Sri Chand Ji was very pleased and requested Guru Arjan Dev Ji to utter 24 Ashtpadis to which Guru Ji agreed. Guru Arjan Dev Ji requested that he add to the Sukhmani Sahib prayer. Baba Sri Chand Ji uttered the 17th Salok of Sri Sukhmani Sahib following his father Guru Nanak Dev Ji, “Aaad Saach Jugaad Saach Hai Bhi Sach Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach”. The Sixth Guru of the Sikhs, Sahib Shri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji together with his sons went to pay homage to Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj. Baba Sri Chand Ji requested Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji to give him his son Baba Gurditta Ji to which Guru Ji agreed. Sri Chand Ji remarked that the radiant face of Baba Gurditta Ji was similar to that of his father Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Baba Sri Chand ji gave his Udasi dress to Baba Gurditta Ji and appointed Baba Gurditta JI as his successor and also uttered “Baba Gurditta Din Duniya Da Tikka”. Guru Arjan Dev Ji also gathered some pothis from Baba Sri Chand Ji for preparing the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or the First Recension of Sahib Shri Guru Granth Sahib.

Please read the following as a humble attempt atwriting up about the Udasi Panth and the life of Sri Chand. I will begin by showing some pictures of Sri Chand and his life.

This is yet another ploy to damage the history and culture of the Sikhs

i doubt sgpc and badal will do anything about this - i hope the Sikhs in western society will raise a voice opposing this. We dont want the symbol of america in the heart of Amritsar. America has done enough damage to the world as it is. The langar of Amritsar feeds thousands everyday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198197/McDonalds-open-vegetarian-restaurant-Golden-Temple-Indian-holy-city-Amritsar.html

In relation to Giani Hari Singh there really insn't any issue. Scholars rarely agree on any one thing, there are always differences, i.e. meat issue, mool mantra etc. This doesn't mean that you start a mud slinging contest, saying one is a complete fake, or is making insults or is opposite to his Ustad's teachings. The real question here is what is the history of the Udasi Samparda. This requires a lot of research and hopefully will be answered soon.

Ive just listened to Giani Hari Singh's youtube katha - i cant see anything wrong with it. Proactive is saying that Giani Ji is disrespecting Guru Ji. err where??? . Giani ji is saying that some giani's are saying Sri Chand was a nalayak put but are saying Guru Nanak was great, so such people are indirectly disrespecting Guru Ji. But Sri Chand was not nalayak put as Ram Rai and/prthvi chand were. To say Ram Rai or Privthi Chand were nalayk children infront of their father is not disrespect because they were bad people and Guru Sahib accepts this themselves and is even written in Gurbani. Look at the sakhi of mera man locheh gurdash taee. However if you say this about Baba Sri Chand that he was nalayak infront of Guru Nanak then this is wrong. This is the point Giani Ji making The conclusion i have come to is that of my first post that some members here are complete novice. When you explain to them they don't understand but rather use aggressive language and make sattements such as Giani Ji is a fake. With such people the quote Dont argue with a fool comes to mind. However i will endeavour in due course to write an academic article on the udasi panth with citations to back it up. I hope this will assist.

*MOD EDIT* - All inflammatory posts that don't have anything to do with this topic have been deleted. It is advised you think before you post. This applies to everyone equally.

what exactly is the point - non chelas of Baba Hari Singh, what has Giani Ji said wrong and what has it got to do with Guru Har Rai excommuniating his son. "The spastic said to the deaf man let me tell you a knowledgable story. Later he replied oh now i am enlightened."

some say he was an avtar of shiva thats why they paint him blue

how do you know sri chand were blue ?? have you met them.........photo can be drawn by anyone nobody will say anything. If you look at the picture of Guru Gobind Singh Ji giving darshan to a hindu pandit as Ram Chandra he is depicted as blue skinned. Yet typical pictures of Ram are of fair skin. Older pictures are that he was blue. its really irrelevant. Can you save these sort of post for www.Tapoban.org site LOL

fiveonly - it is indeed quite difficult to get a simple message across to you.its like talking to a brick wall. YOU WROTE. Your argument is trying to scare a person in believing their are different reasons to take up udasi. I can switch this very easily on you and say do you really think Satguru just put on a Muslim blue garb to leave behind his wife and children to teach Muslims in Mecca. Remember Mecca is much further and the journey was much longer. So there must be different reasons why he went to Mecca. Just like you and Hari Singh Randhawa i can make up theories saying......ooooo Satguru didn't just dress up as a Muslim, but was a Muslim. Then to add reason to my arguement i can say Muslim means to completely submit to Allah. Therefore Satguru was a Muslim of the Koran because he completely submit to Allah (call God whatever you want, there is only one) and the Koran teaches to completely submit to Allah. So Benti, leave your scare tactics out of this discussion. Maybe these scare tactics work with other Sikhs, but they won't work here. err what the hell are you onnabout??? So you are saying Guru Nanak went on 4 Udasi's just to teach the udasi's what true udas is. Yes or no. Also in Hari Singh katha at what time does he talk about nirmala. I guess you are referring to the maria sika jagat vich shabad...This is not a distortion by Giani Hari Singh...every samparda adopts a certain shabad and attachs it to their samparda ie, garieh shabad sache taksal.....now here the arth are spiritual but it can aslo mean learn the shabad at the school of Dami Dami Taksal. Now the question is, does this fit the Gurmat kasvatee (test) answer..yes it does, so hence you can use it as your signauture just like Taksal has. Nirmal Akhara chose bhai gurdas shabad maria sikha jagat vich etc etc. Yest you are saying this is a distortion of Bani ...I think you cant grasp this point

katha on bhai gurdas di vars - hopefully well get to the bottom of this soon. Guru Fateh http://www.gurmatvee...t_Singh_Parwana also Baba Gurbachan Singh;s katha is not necessarily a complete explanation as this katha was not intended to be a complete katha of babaji's knowledge. The katha was done spontaneously when they were jatherdar head of the chaldi vaheer. Remeber babji did 23 kathas of gurbani...its possible everty katha was a bit different some with more edpth some with less. Therefore historical granths have more validity than baba jis katha

SINGH559 Another point is that Giani Hari Singh Randhawe says something that contradicts Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale in his katha of what Nirmal Panth is. A point I made in the last topic is this: Quote At around 7 minutes Baba Hari SIngh Randawe says that if you want to insult someone, you say something along the lines of: "You are a very good person but your allaud (offspring) is worthless and couldn't be helped". Baba Hari Singh Randhawe goes on to say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji could fix the mindset of low people, then SriChand was a big deal? It's important to note that Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his elder son, Ram Rai, for distorting bani to please Aurangzeb. There's a reason why Gurtagaddi was passed to Guru Angad Dev Ji. THIS DOESNT MAKE SENSE PLEASE REVISE YOUR STATEMENT. ALSO COULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN THE SATTA BALWAND BANI AND ITS MEANING IN RELATION TO UDASIS

4. YOU WROTE: Nirmal Panth is first mentioned at 4:50 to 6:00. Here Sant ji refers to Sikhi as the Nirmal Panth which Satguru started and where Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj was the second Guru of this Nirmal Panth. In the second version of the above Katha Sant ji makes it even more clear that Satguru is refering to the Khalsa Panth, by saying in farsi this Panth is called Khalsa Panth. But if you listen to Hari Singh Randhawa he distorts Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and says Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj started the Nirmal Samprada. This is wrong because the Nirmal Samprada, which Hari Singh is refering to, was started by Bhai Daya Singh ji. Then again Hari Singh to confuse the sangat says in the 10th form Satguru increased this Nirmal Panth. correct me if i am but i think you accept that you was wrong on this, also this has nothing to do with your thread title so lets ignore this. There is no matbhed on this question evrybody accepts that Guru Gobind Singh sent 5 singhs to go to Haridvar and when they cane back Guru Sahib said to them to start your parchar jathebandi. 5. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa also says the Gurus did puja of Sri Chand. Correct me if im wrong and misheard. This is a huge insult to the Gurus by Hari Singh Randhawa. What is Hari Singh’s evidence for this, what is his source? Surely not Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani because both sources tell us that Sri Chand went against Satguru and the former source tells us that Sri Chand could not find liberation. Your statement above really shows how little knowledge of sikh history you have. 1. Guru Ramdas with his beard kneeled low and wiped the feet of Sri Chand. 2. Sri Chand was requested to add to his fathers scriptures in Sukhmani Sahib. He never added anything of his own he just repeat mool mantar. 3. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji gave their own child to him for the propogation of ther Udasi Samparda. 4. As seen in the JPEG picture i attched before Baba Sri Chand were respected in Sikhism during the Guru's times. 5. To think or believe that Sri Chand didn't achieve mukhti to me this is just so hilarious. Baba Sri were the most highest of highest tapasvee saints. Baba Sri Chand went san deh to sachkhand. Baba Ji took their own physical body with them, they didnt leave their physical body behind. Mukhti was like a little ant roaming around infront of baba sri chand. Again i cant emphasize howe much bhagt they did. Go to Gurdwara Baath Sahib in faridkot district, here babji did 62 years bagti. Baba Ji went to Sachkhan at the ripe age of 152 years. I dont know how people can even dare to think or write that Baba Ji didnt achieve mukhti. 6. YOU WROTE: Does Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars or Gurbani say anywhere that Satguru started udasi or was a udasi? From Sant Ji’s katha, he has made it clear this was not the case at all. Infact Gurbani give us the explanation of what a Udasi and householder is in this Shabad: Im sure historical granths will clear this point in favour of Giani Hari Singh. Chatanga states there is reference in soraj prakash. i will also reserach into historical books . SO FROM MY ARGUEMENT ABOVE I TOTALLY REFUTE YOUR ARGUEMENTS AND AGREE WITH GIANI HARI SINGH THAT GURU JI STARTED THE UDASI SAMPARDA AS THE GURU'S STARTED ALL OTHER SAMPARDAS ASWELL AND ALSO CREATED THE BIGGEST SAMPARDA IE THE KHALSA BROTHERHOOD.

3: YOU WROTE :Listening to this katha Sant ji says that Satguru adorned the udasi garb to teach the udasis what it really means to be an udasi. Sant ji gives the example of how Satguru went to Mecca and Satguru adorned the blue garb. Just because Satguru adorned the blue garb of the Muslims doesn’t mean Satguru became a Muslim or started the Muslim religion. here Sant Gurbachan Singh have made one valid point but that doesn't mean that this is the only point. Do you really think that Guru Sahib left Kartarpur and sent his wife to her fathers home and left his children behind and took on the Udasi Pekh just to teach Udasi's the correct way to be Udas?? No Guru Sahib had other reasons why he did 4 udasia such as to do the kalyaan of sansar and to preach the Gurmat. Guru Sahib came to save us from Kaljug - Kal Taran Gur Nanak Aiyea ( Bhai Gurdas). So what you are saying here is not the only point there are other points which can support what Giani Hari Singh is saying in relation to the the // Baba Bekh Bania Udasee Ki reet chalyee.

Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani in such a dynamic way it is very deep and has many different attributing meanings such a vyakarn arth can be different to antrreev arth etc. Heres my concise arguement in favour of Giani Hari Singh 1. YOU WROTE: First Hari Singh Randhawa says this tuk to back up his theory that Satguru started Udasis: gur bcnI bwhir Gir eyko nwnku BieAw audwsI ]5]11] okay i accept that the mukh arth are spiritual arth as Baba Gurbachan Singh has relayed. However it is acceptable to use this as historical arth in an argument postulating that Guru Nanak Ji started Udasi. For example in Dasam Darbar i think its Chandi Ki // Guru Sahib states - Nirbau Bei Nihanga. Now the spiritual arth would be that "they became fearless and without pride." However if you look at the arth from a Sikh History perspective then the arth would become the "nihangs became fearless" or another interpretation " fearless makes you a nihang". Here Nihang refers to the Nihang samparda. So do you see the dynamics of Gurbani. All the arth are acceptable. Therefore Giani Hari Singh use of his first point is still aceptable, whether one diagree's this is his own choice but as a vidvaan's arguement it is acceptable. 2. YOU WROTE: Hari Singh Randhawa, also uses the following tuk to back up his claim: bwby ByK bxwieAw audwsI kI rIiq clweI] my arguement in point 1 also applies to this number 2 so hence he is right to say this aswell.

only five - i do not wish to defame you, and i respect you for accepting your shortcomings. Now to tell you the truth i dont even understand what the arguement is here, i dont know exactly what the op is about. Can you present in a succint manner such as bullet points about what it is that you have discovered, can you explain what your findings are and what Giani Hari Singh is saying. then i will try with my limited mat to explain what i know and i will also do research on this. End of the day the purpose of this is to juast do veechar. Chatanga knows of a citation in soraj prakash could you please find it. Remember please do not confuse udasi birthee in your posts like the most venerable pray for truth balbir singh does with udasi samparda Bhul chuk kima karni

You got it wrong on saying Bhai Daya Singh statred nirmal panth.........Im not gonna argue with you, everyone has there own mat and dharam - you say Baba Sri Chand started Udasi, Giani Hari Singh states it was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Like wise you say this about Nirmal Akhara. Guru Gobind Singh Ji started these sampardas just like he statrted Nihangs and Damdami Taksal. Its not really an issue at all to me, you seem to have a witch hunt againts Giani Hari Singh stating on a forum he is wrong and duping people. I believe he is presently in the UK, approach him for time and clear your query with him and get his permission to audio record it and put it on here. You betta take some nappies with you aswell.