chatanga
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Posts posted by chatanga
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In a book I have been reading about the partition of india, there has been some focus on India joining the commonwealth. Nehru was very reluctant to join the commonwealth initially, until he saw Jinnah's enthusiasm for it. When nehru learned that that the one of the pros of joining was that Britian would have to help India in any military strategy, overt or covert he changed his mind as he thought that Pakistan would call on Biritians help in any future conflict. But the thing that stuck in my mind most was that the Indian govt could very easily have called for, and the British govt could very easily have provided covert support and strategy to india in 1984 for Bluestar.
The British were already arranging the murders of members of the Irish Republican movement at this time through the SAS, and the FRU. The SAS went to India to give assistance to military strategy on attacking Darbar Sahib. The British govt claim that because of the infrastructure of Darbar Sahib, (many buildings in close proximity) the SAS advised against it. A little strange as it was the ideal arena of operations for the SAS. But seeing as the indian army are not up to the skills of the SAS, the British govt claim they advised against it.
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On 09/11/2016 at 1:00 PM, genie said:
Seeing the failure of simranjeet mann to get elected or get any decent voter turn out in various elections. It is high time he stepped aside and let a populist Sikh pro-khalistan leader come on to the scene and take charge.
SS Mann's time was over long ago, but there has to be a credible leader to take over. I haven't seen any such person come forward from Amritsar Akali Dal to be capable of such a position and responsibility. Until that time...
On another note, I have seen (but don't know how true it is) a statement from Atinderpal Singh saying there was no such granth as Dasam Granth in Sikh history. Atinderpal Singh if i'm not mistaken was/is part of Mann's Akali Dal.
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Admins, please do not allow guest posts for this section, as you will find cretins posting nonsense here.
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On 28/10/2016 at 8:41 PM, jkvlondon said:
Thanks for the link. A very interesting and informative video. The Sardar in video "The forgotten army" is the same guy who helped Anita rani in her "Who do you think you are?" program.
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On 08/10/2016 at 11:27 AM, singhbj singh said:
Anyway leaders are not scholars let them be enticed by money & power.
You have not seen the mess this thinking has made in the Panth over the last 20 or 30 years?
On 08/10/2016 at 8:52 PM, singhbj singh said:Shall we be sentimental or practical ?
Be both, why choose 1 only? Use both wherever it benefits the Panth. Right now, this global council is causing more harm than god with its activities.
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On 04/10/2016 at 5:02 PM, singhbj singh said:
American Sikh Council (ASC) – the voice of Sikhs in America, is the umbrella organization representative of Sikhs in the United States.
This council is also part of the Global Sikh Council, same group as Lord Singh and his NSO group. They are completely against Sri Dasam Granth.
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Good to see that someone has made a response to this joker lord.
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4 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:
I heard damdami taksal will be doing katha of chandi di vaar at bangla sahib.
Yes, the taksal has started to do katha in Delhi Gurdwaras over the last few months. let's hope they can start to undue some of the damage the missionaries have done.
4 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:The anti dasam granth ppl have such good arguments,
They don't have good arguments. As you have said thye manipulate peoples fears. Thier arguments haven't changed since the 1920s.
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43 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:
Why oh why are we always stuck with worthless leaders
We can only blame ourselves. We let these people get away with a lot, when we can do more ourselves. Especially in western countries, we have nothing to fear, but prefer to stay mute.
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3 hours ago, chatanga said:
Recent ‘Edicts’ against the Global Sikh Council (GSC)
This GSC is a collection of sikh bodies from all around the world. Their UK affiliate is the Network of Sikh Organisations of which this Lord Singh is the head, and his wife, Kanwarjit Kaur is the vice principal of the GSC. They are all in it together.
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Dear All,
I have received this email from a group called "Sikhs helping Sikhs." It is a statement purported to be written by Lord Indarjit Singh. If it is true and it is his own statement, then this is one guy we need to keep an eye on. He is "up there" in government and had a lot of influence on Sikh matters in the UK, upto the point of being involved in formulating Sikh religious studies syllabus.
If this is still the case, we should not have people like him in such positions.
The email:
To the Gurdwara Boards East Africa & other Sikhs concerned about recent pronoucements of Sikh Jathedhars on the Dasam Granth I humbly request you to consider the points mentioned below: Thanks Indarjit Lord Singh of Wimbledon A. Please state which, if any, of the following statements is incorrect: 1. There were many challenges to the Gurus and their teaching during the lifetime of the Gurus. 2. When Guru Gobind Singh added the compositions of Guru Teg Bahadhur to the Adi Granth, he deliberately excluded any verses that he may have written himself. 3. Guru Gobind Singh, aware of the danger of different sants, babas and cults diverting or distorting the Gurus’ teachings, decreed that the Adi Granth with the addition of Guru Teg Bahadhur’s verses,were complete in themselves and would henceforth be referred to as the Guru Granth Sahib, 4. In 1708, Guru Gobind Singh formerly installed the Guru Granth Sahib as complete and sole guidance for all Sikhs. [Guru manio Granth] 5. In a verse following our Ardas, the above sentiment is put as an edict, or hukum, binding on all Sikhs. 6. To accord other writings or scriptures equal reverence to the Guru Granth Sahib, would be a betrayal of the above mentioned hukum. 7. The opening words of the Guru Granth Sahib remind us that there is only one Supreme Being. This is a clear rejection of the Hindu belief in a of a pantheon of gods and goddesses. 8. More than one third of the writings of the Dasam Granth involve the exploits and praise of various Hindu deities. 9. Another third of the Dasam Granth involves the denigration of women and the ‘wiles’ of women, often in stark pornographic terms-in complete contradiction of Sikh teachings of dignity and complete equality. 10. The Dasam Granth was compiled by Hindu Brahmins from a variety of writings at least 50 years after Guru Gobind Singh. 11. A small proportion of the verses in the Dasam Granth are in general consonance with the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and could be lost writings of Guru Gobind Singh. 12. In 1930’s and early 1940’s, a committee of renowned Sikh scholars, after much consultation and analysis, agreed that these banis, listed in the 1945 Sikh Reyat Maryada, should be included in Sikh worship. The rest of the misleadingly and mischievously titled Dasam Granth was unceremoniously rejected as wholly contrary to Sikh teaching. Authority in Sikhism As per Guru Gobind Singh’s hukum, all religious guidance is vested in the Guru Granth Sahib alone. No person has any authority to issue any edict or hukum that is not in consonance with the Gurus teachings as contained in the Guru Granth Sahib. Origin of Jathedhars. During the Missl period, leaders of the groups or Jathas would meet at the Akal Takhat or other venue, to agree policies to meet common external threats. The leaders or spokespeople, had no spiritual authority. All decisions had to be in consonance with the Gurus’ teachings. In the 20s, the newly formed SGPC appointed managers of the main centres of Sikhism(Takhts) who became known as Jathedhars. Before their appointment the Secretary of the SGPC would only test their proficiency in reading the Guru Granth Sahib. Todays Jathedhars In recent years, the SGPC has itself become politicized and controlled by people who show again and again, a greater un-Sikh-like devotion to the pursuit of wealth and power than to living and promoting the Gurus teachings. Today’s Jathedhars are appointed for their loyalty to political masters rather than to the Gurus teachings. The title Jathedhar appears to have gone to the heads of some. In a visit to England, one repeatedly asked me to introduce him as ‘the Pope of the Sikhs. Something I refused to do. Another wrote to the British Museum insultingly stating that Sikh teachings were superior to others. All too often, they use Catholic terminology like ‘excommunication’, (literally banned from drinking communion wine!), to threaten those that disagree with them. There are other examples. Recent ‘Edicts’ against the Global Sikh Council (GSC) The GSC has rightly expressed its concerns over attempts to dilute and distort Sikh teachings by the BJP by the introduction of the Dasam Granth into Sikh theology, with its eulogising of Hindu gods and goddesses and its denigration of women, as described above. Sikhs should ask themselves what was the Punjab Governments motive in producing and distributing thousands of copies of the Dasam Granth at a cost of crores of rupees? Suggestion Jathedhars who promote the Dasam Granth, and even absurdly seek to place it on a par with the Guru Granth Sahib, at best display a gross ignorance of Sikhism, or worse, are enemies of the Panth and should be exposed as such by all Sikhs, along with their political paymasters. ---------------------------------------
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There is a photo of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's simrna. The miss naria's claim the mala is anti-gurmat, based on the "benaras ke thug" shabad. There is a reason why these cretins dismiss Sikh history and sikh artefacts.
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2 hours ago, guruvah said:
1.The question center of the discussion of this thread was the authenticity of the bir here in question.It was alleged to be from Guru Sahib's time. Presence of Kachi Bani proves it cannot be based on the content of the saroop itself.
Bhai Banno prepared his beerh in Guru Arjan's time, and still added Kachi bani into it.
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2 hours ago, guruvah said:
2. You seem to make excuses that "its ok" to have kachi bani in saroop of SGGS or dropped into the middle of Gurbani since you view it as you call it "exegetical ". My honest opinion on this opinion, you need to re-examined your faith when it comes to Gurbani itself. If you have any confusion, then 24th pauree of Anand Sahib makes it clear:
in the 3rd line, Guru Sahib tell us those who recite or listen kachi bani are ਕਚੇ . What to talk about those who advocate the acceptance of exegetical into Gurbani/SGGS itself?
Very interesting. Bhaji, what do you feel is sachi bani, and what is kachi bani according to the shabad you have quoted?
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I read the article in the link, but it is misleading. The panth parwan Sikh reht maryada states "
c. "In the congregation, kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth’s or Guru Gobind Singh’s hymns) and,for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed."The article omits the teachings of Guru Gobind Singh and only lists Bhai Nand Lal and Bhai Gurdas' teachings.1 -
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On 30/07/2016 at 11:15 AM, jassa said:Ok any video of them challenging Jaap Sahib Chaupai Sahib or naam simren ?.
Bro, are you saying you havent seen that video on youtube of dhunda with his face covered hitting Jaap Sahib pothi with a stick and saying bad things about it?
On 30/07/2016 at 11:15 AM, jassa said:Why I am asking this is because I am impressed with dhundas katha with what ever I have heard just want to know why people hate him
I was impressed by dhunda the first time I heard him speak. He made a reply to that mad woman kamlesh kamli and he gave a good response. But this is their Operus Mandi, they make themsleves out to be panthic because they get the ears of people and then they reveal their true colours.
Dhunda has said that shabads more vulgar than prostitutes songs are being sung at Sri HariMandir Sahib. He said that using mala is anti-gurmat. How can it be ANTI-gurmat?
He also said that stories about Guru's are made up. He said that Guru Gobind Singh broke the pots of women carrying water on their heads so their clothes would get wet. Then their clothes would stick to their bodies and you can see where he was heading with that one.
he is just copying his guru dilgeer who has more or less said that every story in the guru's lives are false.
On 30/07/2016 at 11:15 AM, jassa said:he actually is challenging nitname bania and amrit sanchar like Prof Darshan or Kala Afgana..
dhunda was asked on video what his thoughts were about darshan rogi and his recent attempt to start a new panth in USA. He was aksed several tijmes, and his reply was "go ask them". He was too coward to give his true thoughts on it. If he was against it, like he is against so many things in Gurmat, he would have said straight away. But underneath he is the same as the other cockroaches.
On 30/07/2016 at 11:15 AM, jassa said:And please remember only those people are offended by a question who dont know the answer and those who know the answer sees it as a chance to share their knowledge.
No, I'm offended that someone as articulate and educated as yourself say that you don't know people hate him. You know why some people hate Banda Bahadur on the evidence of 1 book written almost 200 years ago, but for the last 15 or so years these cockroach missionaries have been spreading filth and you DON'T KNOW? Come off it brother!
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4 hours ago, jassa said:
Is there any video on youtube or any audio in which Panthpreet or Dhunda is challenging mareyada of "Akal Takth Sahib"
Bor, they don't challenge the maryada of Akal Takht. The maryada they cling to is what is known as the Panth Parwan Maryada. Under the guise of this maryada they attack aspects of Sikh practice like naam simran, call tiraths baths etc.
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1 hour ago, genie said:
Bow gurdwara? From what I recall that arson on Guru Ji and burning down of gurdwara was allegedly started by some black youth who ran off after starting the fire?
Did they eventually catch the real culprit and their find the motive for that henious crime then?
No one was caught but the black guy was a lter invention after it went wrong.
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2 hours ago, Akalifauj said:
Is this interview online?
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This woman gave an interview in which she admitted tearing the angs of Guru Granth Sahib. She said that her son was a granthi at this Gurdwara but had been replaced. Her intention was to show that the new Granthi was incapable of looking after the place by committing this heinous act. She was hoping the granthi would have been removed and that the SGPC would reinstate her son as Granthi, as they were a poor family.
People will stoop so low. It reminded me of the Bow Gurdwara fire. People won't even spare Guru Ji for their own selfish reasons.
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Good work Italy walio.
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Remembering Chaman Lal: A 90 Years Old Activist Who Died Awaiting Justice
Chaman Lal was a victim of human rights violations in Punjab.
His story goes back to 1993 when his elder son Gulshan (20) was arrested and killed in a false encounter by Punjab police on July 22 of the same year. At that time, Chaman Lal was 70 and lived as a vegetable seller in Tarn Taran area. Gulshan’s murder was one of the thousands extrajudicial murders carried out by the Punjab police under former Director General of Police (DGP) KP Gill during the 1990s.
Due to his efforts, an investigation of the case was carried out by the CBI. Four years later after the murder of Gulshan, on February 28, 1997, the investigations resulted in indictments on murder charges for former DSP Dilbagh Singh, SHO Gurbachan Singh, ASI Davinder Singh, Balbir Singh and Arjan Singh. In the trial, the accused were found guilty of murder and were sentenced to life imprisonment. However, they succeeded in receiving bail after 2 years and are free now. Chaman Lal fought a long legal battle to bring the murderers of his son to justice but he could not succeed in his efforts despite struggling for over two decades.
Despite living in extremely poor conditions, Chaman Lal did not give up his stance. Along with fighting a lengthy and costly legal battle, Chaman Lal remained an active human rights activist. After his son’s death in 1993, Chaman Lal started attending seminars and protests for human rights. He advocated equal rights for all beings in Punjab. His last wish was to depose before the Court about enforced disappearance of his son but the Indian Court never recorded his testimony.
The case pertaining to enforced disappearance of Gulshan Kumar was probed by CBI and chargesheets against accused cops were filed in the trial. The trial of the case couldn’t begin for more than a decade. Recently, the stay order in this case was lifted in April 2016 by the Supreme Court and hearing on the case was scheduled to July 2. Unfortunately, Chaman Lal passed away a day before the hearing.
Chaman Lal was a living testament to the crimes committed by the Punjab police in the 1990s.
Chaman Lal with his younger son Parveen Kumar
Chaman Lal’s last wish was for justice—to see his son’s murderers in prison. During the course of the past two decades, the Punjab police tried every possible way to halt Chaman Lal’s quest for justice. Along with giving threats to Chaman Lal and his family members, the police at one time also tried to negotiate with him by offering a bribe of Rs. 7.5 million. This offer was rejected by Chaman Lal. Despite being poor, he refused to sell his conscience.
“My last wish is to see the murderers of my son behind bars,” he told Sikh24 in an interview on March 17, 2016.
Chaman Lal told Sikh24 in a low voice that if he passes away during the trial of this case, his younger son Parveen Kumar, Senior Advocate Rajwinder Singh Bains, Advocate Jagdeep Singh Randhawa, and Harmandeep Singh Sarhali would look after the case.
Chaman Lal reiterated how the Punjab police abducted his son Gulshan on June 22, 1993. Late at night, DSP Dilbagh Singh and SHO Gurbachan Singh entered his home forcefully. All males were beaten mercilessly by the police as they asked them to confess a theft. Later, hearing screams from the house, other villagers rushed to provide assistance. At this point, the police took away Chaman Lal and his sons to the police station.
“They tried to take my daughter along to the police station as well, but the villagers intervened. We faced much torture at the police station which I cannot even describe,” he said.
The torture left Gulshan unable to walk. After three days, while others were released, the police kept Gulshan in custody. Police later asked for a bribe of Rs. 200,000 in return of his son, however, being a poor vegetable seller, Chaman Lal could not afford to pay this sum. Just within days, Gulshan’s physical condition deteriorated and he could not sit or even swallow food. He was later declared a militant and executed on July 22, 1993 in a fake encounter.
The case of Gulshan’s death was not an isolated incident. Thousands of such murders were carried out in cold blood by the Punjab police to invoke animosity between Sikh and Hindu communities. While Sikh youth were eliminated in large numbers, a large number of Hindu families were also affected as their family members were killed to put blame on Sikh organizations. Jaswant Singh Khalra, a human rights advocate, had document 25,000 such extra-judicial murders in Punjab. He was also abducted and later killed in a false police encounter in 1995.
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Sikh Voice channel on youtube is another anti-Dasam Granth group. I htink they have been suspended from uploading videos at the moment, but their existing videos are still there.
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http://www.sikhcoalition.org/about-sikhs/history/dasam-granth-its-history
Beware of the The sikh coalition. It purports to helps Sikhs in the US (which it does well by it's own accounts) but there is this article on their website under Sikh history. It is written by that fool daljeet missionary. Why they would need such an article to be on a website that wants to help americans understand Sikhs is hard to understand.
I have emailed them but have had no reply as of yet.
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Sikh Awareness
in POLITICS | LIFESTYLE
Posted
I don't know whats happened to the forum, but i hope that it will be up soon. There was a lot of good info on that site, and some translations i put up, i never bothered to save on my own computer. If it comes back up (fingers crossed) then that will be the first thing i do.
Neo can't be faulted for allowing an open forum. because it did lead to some pretty intense debating and learning.
From time to time, we had mini-invasions on that forum. From time to time, we had Snatanis, missionaries and vaishnavs throwing their views around, plaguing that forum with the same drivel over and over. But when they weren't, there was some pretty interesting things going up, which sadly were rarely seen here. That was one of the reasons I rarely posted here over the last 2 or 3 years.