GurSa Singh

Veerji,

If he wants to cut his hair, he will more than likely go ahead and do it. I am talking from my personal experience, if he has no love for one of the biggest fundamentals of Sikhi (kesh) then he's not really worth focusing your time on. Keep focusing on your Sikhi. Maybe your Sikhi will one day be his influence. At the moment he looks up to his father, who cut's his hair.

Basically alot of Pugwalla who trim their dharis still classify themselves as Keshdaris and even Singhs. Be honest with him, the day he cut's his dhari he automatically sends a letter of seperation to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, just as the 40 Mukti did. Don't anti-social with him, it doesn't work, I've tried it with people. Always talk to him with love.

At the end of the day he might be one of the non-monay left in your area, but don't forget it's quality we want not quantity. Rather see 1 GurSikh to 100 Trimmed Pugwalla/monay.

Keep focusing on your Sikhi and stay in Chardi Kala.

Previous posting withdrawn.

GurFateh!

We are pushing to have Guruji's Saroop taken to the Sikh Museum in Leicester, where Sikhs will be able to have darshan of this purataan Saroop. The British Library will still have ownership of the Saroop.

It is almost impossible for the British Library to agree to give the Satkar to Guruji's Saroop. They apparently have over 50 GurMukhi manuscripts in their vaults, we don't even know how many other Saroops they have.

Will the Sikh Museum be prepare to preserve these by installing special temperature controlled rooms etc ?

We have already lost many rare manuscripts due to the stupidity of the SGPC etc. We need to preserve these manuscripts.

We don't want some so called baba from India turning up to the museum and deciding that it could be better to consign these to the flames.

Veerji,

Let's give some credit to our Gurdwara in the UK who have established museums on a small scale.

If they don't have the facilities to store the puratan saroops in the correct climatical conditons th

en I am sure between us we can raise the funds in order to purchase the equipment.

As far as I know, Leicester is able to provide the facilities.

We are pushing to have Guruji's Saroop taken to the Sikh Museum in Leicester, where Sikhs will be able to have darshan of this purataan Saroop. The British Library will still have ownership of the Saroop.

It is almost impossible for the British Library to agree to give the Satkar to Guruji's Saroop. They apparently have over 50 GurMukhi manuscripts in their vaults, we don't even know how many other Saroops they have.

Some Singhs have visited the British Library this afternoon.

As per their e-mail yesterday Sri Guru Granth sahib jee has been moved, but they have a very big old Gukta and Sri Dasam Granth jee still on display in glass cabinets.

We have sent several e-mails to Chief-Executive@bl.uk, Jasleen.Kandhari@bl.uk, Graham.Shaw@bl.uk, hsr@asht.info with the following points:

1) Revoke Sri Dasam Granth Ji on "display" currently in the Library exhibition.

2) How many saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji & Sri Dasam Granth Ji does the British Library have?

3) The storage of saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji & Sri Dasam Granth Ji ? What about daily prakash and maryada?

4) We are putting pressure for Guruji's saroops to be looked after by a UK Gurdwara which will give respect & allow Sikhs to have darshan (in accordance to British Library's requirements).

We are still waiting for reponses on any of the above.

Can anyone confirm who the 'baba' & 'mata' are?

Who also runs this establishment, committee etc?

Does anyone have links with Guru Nanak Gurdwhara Sedgely Street, can you find out who the Singhs who went down were and what they were told?

HardeepSinghKhalsa has started another thread to investigate & deal with the Ek Niwas issue.

Please use this thread to focus on the British Library Issue only.

Thanks

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Lets do something about this, as a sikh kaum should.

Please reply back and we should discuss this as serious matter.

EK NIWAS

Universal Devine Temple

71-72 Dudley Road

Blacken Hall

Wolverhampton

WV2 2BY

Veerji,

Thanks for the info. Let's start looking into this. Please start a new thread seperate from this so that we can focus on this as an individual issue.

Please also e-mail sikhalerts@yahoo.co.uk with these details.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

One of the problems has been that this saroop has been displayed at the V&A in 1999. They did this follwing advise from the Bhai Mohinder Singh of Guru Nanak Nishkam Sevak Jatha in Birmingham who advised that there were no doctrinal problems in displaying this manuscript in an exhibition. Again, I dont agree with this advise but clearly we can send very mixed messages if the debate extends.

I think that it would be much more positive and proactive if we offered better advise on how to handle and keep Sikh objects and manuscripts. Clearly these big organisations are getting some pretty shoddy guidnace from certain quarters. If you fell you can help me draft something to send to museum please do drop me a line. It may mot change anything immediately but it will inevitably help in the long run and avoid these kinds of instances.

Amandeep Veerji,

It still feels like it would be beadbi to GurBani if we let the museum display Sri Dasam Granth ji.

I don't understand why Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh of Guru Nanak Nishkam Sevak Jatha advised that it would be OK to display Sri Dasam Granth ji in a glass cabinet in 1999. I am very upset by this, especially with Bhai Sahib being a major Sikh figure in the UK.

Regardless of what mistakes the Sikhs have made in the past, surely we must now fix it.

Letter received just minutes ago from the British Library. They have removed Guruji's saroop from the exhibition.

Now we need to know

1) where Guruji's saroop will be taken ?

2) why have they not removed Sri Dasam Granth ji?

SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB

The British Library has today withdrawn from its current display ‘Faith and Brotherhood: Treasures of the Sikhs’ the manuscript of the Guru Granth Sahib. We apologise for any offence this may have inadvertently caused.

The British Library is very conscious of its responsibilities and duties of care towards the sacred texts of all world faiths in its collection, not least the Guru Granth Sahib for its special significance to the Sikh community.

With this very much in mind, we have only ever displayed manuscripts which are selections from the Guru Granth Sahib, rather than complete manuscripts, and it was our understanding that the manuscript in question was also not complete, lacking for instance the hymns composed by the 9th Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur.

However, we have now been informed that, although this is technically correct, the manuscript should still be accorded the same respect due to a complete Guru Granth Sahib. Hence our decision to remove the manuscript from display immediately.

The British Library again apologises unreservedly for any offence it may unwittingly have given.

Lynne Brindley

Chief Executive

The British Library

When asked which bani's, he had no answer and said that he would consult with the 'Sikh' scholar Jeevan Deol (School of Asian and African Studies, University of London) who had conducted an examination of the saroop. He also pointed out that other Sikh texts had been exhibited in a similar way in previous exhibitions without any complaints and that they had consulted with the Anglo Sikh Heritage Trust. The conversation ended with him undertaking to find out exactly what the saroop was from Jeevan Deol.

So they have only consulted one individual for advice!!

Anyway they definetly have Guruji's Saroop, please read article below

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/heritage/ind...ndex/11316.html

Thanks for your posting Charan Singh,

I definetly see this as Guruji's Saroop.

Even at the bare minimum whether Gurbani's in the form of a Gutka or a Senchi, we always remove our shoes or ensure our heads covered. I am pretty sure vistors to the museum or museum staff will not be observing this. This tradition must be maintained wherever Gurbani is present.

This is beadbi and we urgently need to tackle this.

I am sending a e-mail to Chief-Executive@bl.uk; Jasleen.Kandhari@bl.uk; hsr@asht.info; atma.singh@london.gov.uk.

I also think we need to start arranging a jatha to turn up @ the museum to portest against this. This needs to be ASAP, so whilst we are phoning & e-mailing the relevant people to communicate our outrage, I suggest we be ready once again incase we need to turn up.

I somehow do not see the mueseum changing their mind until we successfully communicate our outrage.

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikiFateh!

Thank you for bringing these two issues to teh Sangats attention.

I cannot for one minute believe that any self respecting Panthic Jathebandhi would support the 'display' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as an object of curiosity or Prakaas next to idols. Both of these things are unacceptable.

If anybody has contact details for the exhibition, please post them here.

Also where is this 'Ek Nivas' in Wolverhampton, if you have a tel number & address it would be useful?

Thanks

There were 2 big Amrit Sanchar's this weekend in the UK. Any new recruits??

I want to congratulate someone... :TH: :nihungsmile:

Baba Maan Singh will be doing Kirtan during 7-9 pm at the following East London Gurdwaras:

9th August Gurudwara Dasmesh Darbar, Rosebery Ave, East Ham

10 August Gurdwara Singh Sabha, Barking

11-12 August Gurdwara Singh Sabha, Goodmayes on Wednesday and Thursday.

Bhai Baljinder Singh Rara Sahib and jatha will be doing kirtan every day 9 to 15 August at

Gurdwara Karamsar, High Road, Ilford.

We have a strict agreement in place with this hotel to use their meeting rooms to perform the anand karaj. The meeting rooms are seperate from the main hotel, they ensure the air is purified and carpets cleaned before the Guru Ji arrives. We have direct acces into the hall so the Guru Ji does not have to go through any public area. The hotel does not allow its staff in the area once the Guru Ji has arrived.

Jio, this is what veerji has said to me. What does sangat think ??

Daasan Das ji, Read Tav Prasaad Singhji posting above:

This gurmayada must be adhered to where ever Sri Guru Granth Sahib is taken. We can never have this maryada practiced in hotels or clubs. When we talk about respect for Guru Maharaj its not just rumalas and Chaur sahib seva. There is a wider picture and concept which means "respect". In a nutshell this concept is the whole activities a Gurdwara will perform - this equals respect.

Like Mkhalsa ji has also stated. There is no way the Moathouse Hotel will stop their daily activites for us. Alcohol & ciggerates will still be sold, meat will be sold, hotel guests will do what they want to.

taking guru sahib there is a grave mistake and will definitely be a blemish on ones karams.

and will blemish on our karam if we don't attempt to stop this beadbi from happening.

In the interim period where we have a few Anand Karaj requests

already booked, we will try to discuss and assist the families involved and

reorganise the day on a smaller scale or at the Gurdwara Sahib. Where this is not

possible or viable, we will personally do Ardas and ensure that our existing

strict procedures for external Anand Karaj's are met with utmost respect.

Amarjit Singh, I can see how you made it as Pardaan. You speak the political lingo.

It is great to see that you will no longer do the beadbi of our Guruji. I certainly hope this will mean that on 22nd August we are not having to turn up at Northampton to stop you from abusing our Guruji.

It still feels that you do not see taking Guruji to a Hotel as a serious abuse in that you have a justified your actions.

The Akal Takht Hukumnama states this as not being allowed, Gurbani states that the acts carried out in Hotels (drinking & smoking) are against Guruji's principles. There is no middle ground. Any GurSikh who uses their intelect knows they are performing a massive sin.

Pardaanji, you have been honoured the responsibility of running a GuruGhar. You must ensure us that you will not allow Guruji to to be taken into Hotels even in 'the interim period'.

The letter by TavPrasad Singh Ji is excellent and sums up all the issues around the situation the Committee have created.

I agree that we need to set up a Nawjawan Sabha which will directly deal with these issues. However, in the meantime we still have to do the groundwork as individuals and try our best to impact.

Until we set up this organisation, it's up to us as individuals to stop this specific beadbi from taking place. We need to start somewhere. We need to make an example of the mockery that's going on.

We should all write letters to the committee, nothing is a waste of time, every little bit helps.

The Sikh Nawjawan Sabha (UK) started on 25 Jul 2004, the day we turned up @ Trafalgar Square.

Think about it, the movements already in motion. Just look at the responses from people since then.....

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I have just spoken to someone at the gurdwara. This person was instantly on the defensive.

The point he raised was that Guru Maharaj's saroop will be looked after by them in the Hotel. I replied that this was not the issue, no matter how well they feel they look after Guru Maharaj there will be beadbi by the hotel staff, the hotel guests and the sangat attending as well as them.

I also said that the Guru is not an object, which is taken to where they decide! His counter argument was that if we take Guru Maharaj's saroop to Sikh houses, there is also meat and alcohol there. I said going to houses is about parchar, the wedding situation is blantant pakhaand, giving more importance to the reception party over the Guru. I emphasised that the hotel will not shut their bar for duration of the wedding and some of the wedding attendies will take advantage of this.

I could not believe the manmat answers I got, whatever weakness are within our community they need to be addressed by these so called leaders not exploited. If this Gurdwara is small and raises money by selling the Guru, then they should shut their 'shop' down as there are 2 other real Guru ghars already in Northampton.

The conversation ended by him putting the phone down on me.

Sadh Sangatji, we must fight this manmat....

why is it always in Uk.

It just shows how bad we have become in the UK.. However, things are a bit better as it did take place much more often up till a few years ago. Nowadays it's one of cases, like Milton Keynes and now Northampton.

Still, it should not happen, period!!! The worse thing is I have now been told that the pardaans a young guy, only about 30 years old. So we can't fully blame the elder culture, looks like the youth are falling into the same trap...

man there should be no elections in the gurughar..it should run by youth..who are offcourse..no one is president..all sevadaars..what u think sangatooo...

That would be the ideal scenario...We can aim to get there..In the mean time we need to change what's happening now. Khalsaji, make sure you call the Gurdwara.

Can we get the pardaans direct number or mobile number?? I want to ring him directly.

Thanks

Charan Singh, Thanks for posting this. I sort of knew about this last month.

It's time to start pressurising committees to change their bad habits. I am going to call them up and will get back to you.

Sangatji, get involved. We can collectively impact. We all must call the committee, even write to them. Charan Singh, please post address of Gurdwara Sahib.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Lets start discussion groups as Youth. For example UK South East Sikhs meet once a month, discuss each other's issues (this can be anything at all). This will spread awareness at a larger scale and improve contacts.

As a group we can start to resolve issues, put our voice forward to the issues Sikhs face. The older generation are not involved in resovling instead they want to create more divides.

To start lets have "constructive discussions" which lead somewhere. Even if this begins with a handful of Sikhs its a start.

We just need to start talking to each other and Waheguru will give the direction!