GurSa Singh

RST have released a statement to cover their tracks and pretend that they have been talking with the Satkaar Sevadars. Its amasing how they feel they are being bullied to follow maryada! That means they want to be free to do manmat....following Akal Takht Sahib Maryada is like being bullied.

http://www.rstbirmingham.com/

"Important - Satkaar Sewadars further threaten Maharaja Jassa Singh Hall and RST Members by sending out SMS Messages for a demonstration at Gurdwara - have your say to oppose this bullying.

Maharaja Jassa Singh Hall Update

Dear Members and Sadh Sangat Ji, The Gurdwara would like to inform you that a body called Satkaar Sewadaar have been putting immense pressure on the Committee in regards to the Hiring of MJSH and that it should not allow certain foods and drinks. The Committee have suggested a meeting date to discuss this but it seems that an email went out and posts on websites that ths was not the case. The Committee advised them that the decision will be made by the members of RST (especially as they implied it was the local sadh Sangat members who had complained)and a meeting for Mid January was proposed as key individuals from the Committee were abroad and the regular Members and Sadh Sangat needed to be consulted and also we need to establish who they represent and whether they represent as this is still unclear.. Satkaar Sewadars sent out an email stating we were unwilling to meet them, which is untrue. They have emailed again requesting another meeting yesterday. We would like your views on this and would welcome responses to info@rstbirmingham.com"

Come on RST walay, be honest enough to refer to the fact that you allow meat and alcohol on MJSH instead of the vague reference of ‘Certain foods and drinks’. How spineless!

Anyway, this is Akal Takht's hukum, not Satkaar Sewaadars on anyone else. A committee that needs to give themselves several weeks to ban alcohol and meat on the pavitar Gurdwara premises are not worthy of calling themselves Panth sewaks. In my view they cannot have a Gurmat agenda. Shame on the RST Birmingham committee, who do not deserve to be representing the great misl of Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia.

It is also evident that parties serving alcohol and meat have been still taking place on the MJSR Hall. On the 4th December 2010 a party took place at the Hall which which allowed khulla sharab and maas to be served. No doubt there's been several parties since then and there will be more to come. The Committee have shown no interest in addressing the issue and carry on entertaining manmat under Baba Jassa Singh's name. It's a terrible state of affairs.

The Satkaar campaign is not a formal body in any sense. It is neither a registered charity nor a private association, nor does it have any formal office or office-bearers. Rather, the Satkaar campaign, and its Sevadaars (i.e., Satkaar Sevadaars), is a UK Sangat-led grassroots Gurdwara reform movement, initially focused on preventing the gross sacrilege of parties, meat, alcohol and tobacco being permitted on Gurdwara premises or any premises funded with the Sangat's donations to Guru Ji's Golak. This cause, as an issue of concern for the UK Sangat, was formalised on Saturday 16 October 2010, when hundreds of concerned members of the UK Sangat – young and old, male and female, amritdhaari and non-amritdhaari, from all Panthic Jathebandiaan and backgrounds – travelled from far and wide to peacefully protest against a proposed party at Grays Gurdwara, which would see alcohol, tobacco and meat permitted on Gurdwara premises. With Guru Ji's blessings, the party was prevented from occurring. Subsequently, Grays and Edinburgh Gurdwaras have also agreed to close down their party halls.

Just a reminder of the second amazing Hukumnama Dhan Dhan Sachay Patshay Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj blessed us with on Saturday 16 October 2010 during the Grays Morcha.

Dhanaasree mehlaa 5.

Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:

doot dusman sabh tujh tay nivrahi pargat partaap tumaaraa.

All demons and enemies are eradicated by You, Lord; Your glory is manifest and radiant.

jo jo tayray bhagat dukhaa-ay oh tatkaal tum maaraa. ||1||

Whoever harms Your devotees, You destroy in an instant. ||1||

nirkha-o tumree or har neet.

I look to You continually, Lord.

muraar sahaa-ay hohu daas ka-o kar geh uDhrahu meet. rahaa-o.

O Lord, Destroyer of ego, please, be the helper and companion of Your slaves; take my hand, and save me, O my Friend! ||Pause||

sunee bayntee thaakur mayrai khasmaanaa kar aap.

My Lord and Master has heard my prayer, and given me His protection.

naanak anad bha-ay dukh bhaagay sadaa sadaa har jaap. ||2||13||44||

Nanak is in ecstasy, and his pains are gone; he meditates on the Lord, forever and ever. ||2||13||44||

Coming up to 1 year since Bhai Sukhwinder Singh showed us an example of being a true Sikh. Just a reminder to some of us who may have forgotten him

The brave death of Bhai Sukhwinder Singh is an inspiration for us bickering Sikhs. So many of us are so into our Jathas, our Groups, our version of history and our version of maryada. We spend hours proving each other wrong and justifying our Sikh superiority over others, justifying our own jeevans.

However, picture this. A women being mugged by 2 big black men, a woman being punched in the face by the aggressive mugger and then a lone Singh of Guru Gobind Singh Ji giving chase to these muggers risking more than just his live, but risking the life-line of his wife, son, mother and father all the way in Punjab. How many of us would have gone this far to help someone? How many of us Sikhs would fear our own lives and turn a blind eye?

This is “Sarbat Da Balla” in its entireity. This is the “Shubh Karman” that Guru Gobind Singh Ji talks about. This Singh belonged to no Jatha, no Taksaal, no Dal, he was just a sewadar earning a living in the UK. He was a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, of Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Please let’s not forget this. Sukhwinder Singh has become a national hero for Britain, his memory in the mainstream may only last a few days but his noble deeds should be an inspiration for us Sikhs for the rest of our lives. Please, let’s not forget this veer’s actions.

I got this text today:

Tonight 8pm watch Sikh TV Channel 848 they will show Sikh Stage UK even which happened in Erith on Wednesday night pls watch Jas Dhami, Aman Hayer, Benny Dhaliwal performing live in Erith Gurdwara to preserve the future of Sikhism.

I suppose it was the overconfident statement preserve the future of Sikhism which allured me in to watching the programme on Sikh TV. Being a bit of an old fogie, firstly I was not too sure who Jas Dhami, Aman Hayer and Benny Dhaliwal were except for Bhangra pop stars, quickly checked their videos on youtube and as usual saw the women exploiting antics of the typical Bhangra male singer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zg7ZQy-bQs

So then I thought what will they be preserving? They did not appear as Sikh role models in deed or in look.

What I watched on Sikh TV was the usual 15 minute panthic bandwagon that these Bhangra singers jump on every so often as a self promotional exercise, but this time it was on the Gurdwara stage. I felt somewhat uncomfortable that the pious Gurdwara stage of Gursikh examples was allowed to be hijacked for the purpose of a Bhangra singers publicity campaign where they sang a dharmik geet and no doubt they will subsequently be appearing in a music video where they attempt to seduce a woman in a bar.

The idea that this was publicised as an event to preserve the "future of Sikhism" shows how thoughtless we are. Sikhism is preserved through reni beni, thorough principles and Gurmat not through Bhangra singers.

Maybe there was some genuine sharda in the organisation of this event, but organiser need to see the mixed messages of confusion which are sent when incorrect people are portrayed as Sikh role models. Till this day I have not seen one Bhangra singer, who sing Dhamrik geet one minute and then sing about a bottle of sharab the next minute, adopt a Gursikh jeevan. Yet for some reason people convince themselves that they will promote a Gursikh jeevan to others.

Apologies to the likes of Mohan Singh SAS and others who were involved in the organisation, but I honestly think that if Bhangra singers think they should preserve Sikhism, then they should make more of an effort to change their jeevan and solely promote Sikh principles not a womans anatomy or bottle of liquor.

This is the segment of the Panth Time programme (broadcasted on Sikh Channel - 4th December 2010) where Sri Akal Takht Sahib Jathedar Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji expands on the 2006 Sandesh:

Please can Sikhpaji and other members of RST take note.

6mins 30seconds into the video clip Dr Gurnaam Singh directly asks Jathedar ji for clarity on properties assumed to be outside the boundries of the Gurdwara but owned by the Gurdwara. Jathedar ji gives clarity that these properties are ONLY allowed to be used for Gurmat related activities only, MEAT, ALCOHOL OR DRUGS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THESE PROPERTIES!

Sangat ji,

I came accross this shabad today. It felt relevant to this thread after reading the attitude seen above by people like sikhpaji and the committee of RST. This Shabad is by Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj in Raag Malaar on ang 1288

salok ma 2 ||

Salok, Second Mehla:

naao fakeerai paathisaahu moorakh pa(n)ddith naao ||

The beggar is known as an emperor, and the fool is known as a religious scholar.

a(n)dhhae kaa naao paarakhoo eaevai karae guaao ||

The blind man is known as a seer; this is how people talk.

eilath kaa naao choudhharee koorree poorae thhaao ||

The trouble-maker is called a leader, and the liar is seated with honor.

naanak guramukh jaaneeai kal kaa eaehu niaao ||1||

O Nanak, the Gurmukhs know that this is justice in the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||1||

No bloody respect for GURU GHAR - PAKKA CHOR DEMANDING 100 GRAND HE SHOULD GO ASK HIS GLASSY JUNCTION THUGS - HIS MP MATE VIRENDRA SHARMA FOR 100 GRAND - BAN HIM FROM GURU GHAR

Isn't Glassy Junction owned by the Khambay family who make themselves out to be "Gursikhs" at Clifton Road Gurdwara? Are they linked to Sohi or Malhi now?

They have not clarified position on anything.

Beadbi - party halls? nothing!

Mix faith marriages -Nothing (in fact some of these leaders had openly objected against Akal thakt)

Khalistan- Nothing

and when we start getting into nitty gritty, Shri Dasam Granth Ji, Meat, Chairs in langur/darbar, Raagmala, keski, which Sants are kosher, which arnt..

It better they make their stand clear from the outset, so people know what they are signing up for.

Rehat maryada issues are of high importance. If the intentions of SCUK are to be some kind of Sikh "Think Tank" they need to be clear cut on principles and not just formalise anything and then label it Sikh. When volatile community/panthic issues develop in the UK, then Scuk will have to be either commending or condemning. They can't get away with sitting on the fence. It would be useful to understand what level of panthic Scuk expect to be.

We have seen sell outs like BSC drop their "Khalistan" agenda as an when it suits them and for that many of us think they are a waste of space. Scuk have so far given us wish washy lingo with focus solely on membership. On one side members come on Sikh Channel say they promote Akal Takht Maryada and in the same interview they mention that they will not interfere in the maryada issues of Gurdwaras. So what is the point.

In my view, SCUK seem to have formalised to push out the likes of individuals Inderjit Singh, Dr JS Rai, Kashmir Singh, Gurmukh Singh, Harmander Singh as cosy government consultants. Fair enough, good move. But what about dharmic issues, satkaar issues, rehat maryada issues which we expect Scuk to lead. There's no clarity on that.

They are asking for young people to come forward, and it seems very few have, so whose fault will it be when we just have a few middle aged men at the front?

Somehow expected that answer. Have any young people come forward who regularly use this forum? Bundha Ji, have you? Any first hand experiences about the panthic "appetite" that is formalising?

Remember the story "The Emporer's New Clothes".

An Emperor who cares for nothing but his wardrobe hires two weavers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position or stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects. A child in the crowd calls out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

I do wonder if this whole self back patting that's being created about this council is nothing more than the story above. So far the same faces seem to keep coming forward telling us how amazing this is but no one is telling us what the SCUK will take on. Will they take on Gurdwara Satkaar issues or are Satkaar issues going to be classified as "bickering" issues as per comments made on the live Panth Time last week??

And before anyone comes back with the answer, "why don't you put yourself forward", please give some clarity on what SCUK will take on in terms of real Panth issues before leading us into believing this is the best thing that has ever happened when nothing has even happened.

Interesting.

Under the present European Human Rights Law, can a Gurdwara Committee to be successfully taken court if they operate a selection of their members from a caste only and discriminate against an indvidual based on caste? Or is this something for the Charity Commission to review only?

as i am not from the area i dont really know the full story. i will try to find out some details. i am told there is only one local gurdwara in the same town which is quite recently opened, im not sure of their views on the matter. this is in ayrshire in scotland, the other gurdwaras are in glasgow and edinburgh. does anyone know more about this situation?

The Scottish Singhs need to be made aware of the issue. There's a strong naujwaan Panthic group in Glasgow who really helped with the Edinburgh Gurdwara issue.

Please get in touch with them first. I'll PM you some email addresses.

Gurfateh Jee,

I heard that the 'Panth time' at the hall was a wasn't true, that there was a fake text going around. Nothing happened, there was no panth time there. Is this true??

The Panth Time due to be recorded on 10th December at RST was announced on the previous weeks Live Panth Time (4th December) by Prof Gurnam Singh. It must have then been cancelled.

hi all I visited a "gurdwara" recently and i wanted your opinions on the strange happenings there.

i was visiting the area so i didnt know this beforehand. the "gurdwara" was a local community hall owned by the local council. this was hired (for the sunday only) out to the local sikh association who held a langar there. i was informed that this had been going on approx once a month for about 4 years now. there was no nishan sahib.

the strange thing i also found out is that this town has a permanent gurdwara less than a mile away. i asked why the langar wasnt held there and the i was told that they dont get on with the people at the other gurwara. im not sure where guru ji is kept when the hall isnt being used as a gurdwara and no one seemed to be shocked that the community hall would be used for parties the night before. surely this shouldnt be allowed or is that the way things are going now? anyone else know of this setup elsewhere?

thanks for your views

Sounds similar to what was happening in Watford a few years ago. 2 groups fell out and one group decided to carry out a monthly diwan in a local community hall whilst the other ran the Guru Ghar.

At the end of the day, the Granthi Ji who does the sewa of Maharaj's Saroop should know better than to be taking Maharaj's pavitar saroop to the local community hall which will allow meat, sharab etc. There is a Hukumnama which forbides us Sikhs from doing this. What does the local Guru Ghar say on the issue? What about the other Guru Ghars in the surrounding areas?

The local community need to get together and resolve this. They should take the responsiblity of sorting this "fall out" out as they may understand the history behind the issue.

Are all the local Gurdwaras aware of the issue? I'm sure they can step in.

This adverts so cringeworthy! Even her hair turned bottle blonde!!!

I personally thought she looked better in the before roop rather than the after roop.

If these threats are "true" then surely the committee should be reporting this to the Police.

The committee seem to be attempting to portray a link to some criminal damage which took place a few years ago. I think it is a ploy to deflect attention from the real issue. Just like Dr Bhogal does on Sikh Channel by continually pushing the whole corruption of Sri Akal Takht Sahib as a reason to not accept Gurmat principles (via an issued Hukumnama, Sandesh). Even the SCUK special show on Saturday evening on the Sikh Channel showed a committee representative of RST attempting to claim Akal Takht Maryada may isolate some Sikh communities.

What is really surprising it all the coverage from Non-Sikh media has overall been really positive. Even BBC Asian Network, who never have a good thing to say about Sikh issues, was siding to the fact that it is wrong to allow meat and alcohol to be consumed on Gurdwara property. However as usual its not so easy to convince our own community members that this is wrong.

I have caught Punjab Radio on Sky 0130 covering the issue and they had a discussion programme on the party hall beadbi by specific committees last week. They invited a Dal Khalsa UK representative to talk about the party halls beadbi.

Sikh Channel have at least produced a Panth Time special on the issue and covered the Grays protest.

However, most of our Sikh media (TV, Radio, Print, On-line) are still not mature and independent enough to take on coverage of these kinds of issues. Some are tied into loyalties with certain contributing committees whilst others simply do not possess the infrastructure or resource to cover a real-time panthic issue.

I don't think we are still getting the best of our Sikh media and it may take several years, perhaps a decade, before we are really comfortable to be open and independent about resolving Panthic issues with our own media tools.

Sorry if this is off topic, but someone sent me the above link some time back. Shows how some Students in Michigan University co-ordinated a silent walk out protest. Pretty impressive impact. There is an approach to non-violent protesting that can gain public support.

As Sikhs we have the right to express our serious concerns via non-violent protesting. There may be an element of bias/racism in media coverage, but I personally think a significant element of adverse coverage in relation to Sikhs protesting boils down to how the protest campaign is carried out, the transparency of the protesters and the marketing of the protest. Many articulate Sikhs are still media shy and not willing to come forward to represent Sikhs when something adverse is being reported or we put the wrong people forward to represent the Sikh perspective (Behzti play was a prime example of this). This then allows negative Sikh reporting to succeed.

Except for the embarrassing pronunciations and some incorrect references to Guru Hargobind Sahib, I thought the report is pretty accurate.

The interviews with the public are really good and reflect the opinions of the normal "sikh on the street" regarding the abuse of Gurdwara properties.

The comparison to other faiths and their protocol regarding their places of worship is really interesting. Even the Methodist Church has a protocol not allowing alcohol, tobacco and parties on Church properties.

Interesting coverage overall. We should forward this report to others to raise awareness.

Did anyone attend the Panth Time recording last night at RST Birmingham? Would be interesting to get some feedback on the kind of "mood" the committee portrayed on camera and if the issue of the beadbi allowed in the Hall was actually discussed on the show.

I suppose the rest of us will have to watch tonight's broadcast on Sikh Channel at 7pm to find out. Forget the X Factor final or Strictly Come Dancing!

Whoever opens a Guru ghar in order to make a profit from it for personal gain, seriously needs to sort their priorities out. I know the Gurudwara won't run on air and water, but to reduce it to a money-making enterprise is very cynical and......weird.

According the RST's published accounts for year end Apr 2008, (signed by Mr PS Bhogal as Gen Sec) the specific income generated from the Jassa Singh Hall was £39k and the total Gurdwara income (inc Hall) generated was £313k. In 2008, the Jassa Singh hall only generated 12% of the total Gurdwara income for the RST. £274k worth of income was generated from the Gurdwara Sahibs's normal activities.

As at 2008 RST has a healthy total c/fwd funds balance of £1.4 million. The contribution from the Jassa Singh Hall to this fund balance is pretty insignificant.

RST have a sustainable "business" model without any economic justification for immoral income to be generated from the Jassa Singh Hall.

The only justification I can make out for the need of the Hall as a party hall is pure Manmat.

From the sounds of Rana's presentation on the programme so far, it looks like Sikh Channel have dropped the Satkaar issues on tonights show.

Either the Grays Committee members did not give an interview in the end or Rana was too uncomfortable to talk about the issue about alcohol, meat and parties in some UK Gurdwaras.

Anyway, it's still a very relevant topic that's being discussed at the moment.

Thankyou for reminding us all!

Parnaam Shaheeda Nu.

Dhan Dhan Baba Darshan Singh Shaheed