Pheena

Save the money and give it to a homeless person or do matha tek with it in the Gurudwara.

Follow what your heart says and you will know if it is the right thing to do or not.

Who is rumi? :umm:

A madman who whirled his way to the field beyond duality and died in the love of his supreme prophet in the 13th century.

http://www.khamush.com/

http://download.publicradio.org/podcast/sp...071213_rumi.mp3

ok, i'm sorry to have come across as though i were questioning the devotion of a great soul.

you can close the thread if you want. i guess all the answers are here.

Perhaps I should've worded my last sentence in a different way. My intention was not to offend you.

Once a rich man brought a present for Bhagat Kabeer ji. It was a scissor which was embroidered with diamond. Kabeer ji aptly refused to accept his gift and said, "My work is not to cut things, I am here to join hearts. If you wish to give me a present then bring me a needle which i can use to sew hearts torn from the beloved".

Gifts and offering for a Master require thoughtful motives and they can only be fully known by the person giving and by the one who receives it.

i'm not offended, veerji. i actually should thank you for bringing some light into this thread.

i really really love your signature, by the way. rumi is a favorite of mine..

" Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,

there is a field. I'll meet you there.........

-rumi- "

then let us meet there.

ok, i'm sorry to have come across as though i were questioning the devotion of a great soul.

you can close the thread if you want. i guess all the answers are here.

Perhaps I should've worded my last sentence in a different way. My intention was not to offend you.

Once a rich man brought a present for Bhagat Kabeer ji. It was a scissor which was embroidered with diamond. Kabeer ji aptly refused to accept his gift and said, "My work is not to cut things, I am here to join hearts. If you wish to give me a present then bring me a needle which i can use to sew hearts torn from the beloved".

Gifts and offering for a Master require thoughtful motives and they can only be fully known by the person giving and by the one who receives it.

with regards to the right honourable ladie's post above Jasleen k

why make a bir out of gold script ?

why laden the sri adh granth sahib with the finest silk ?

why have a golden temple ?

also you seem to insert a smiley after a strong statement as if that makes it okay

so have u ever wondered 'why' about the questions raised above ?

i think you are trying to solve a problem which doesnt exist

actually, i'm not trying to solve any problem at all. i just wondered why. are we allowed to question things in sikhi? as long as i don't question my guru, i mean. (sorry, the smilies are to show a light-hearted tone, so people don't take everything so seriously!)

why have a golden temple? i've wondered it many times. Guru ji didn't make it gold... a repentant king did it to give honour to his Guru. and that's ok with me.

why cover Guru ji in sumptuous cloth? because it's our Guru. easy enough.

but why remake Guru ji's body in gold, when he himself didn't do it? Guru Gobind Singh ji, Guru Arjan Sahib, either one could have used gold to make Adi Granth, but they did not. the whole reason we have Guru ji in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is so that we can commune with him, learn his teachings, listen to his hukam. and who's going to read the golden bir? certainly not lowly creatures like me or you. so if only special people can handle this bir, won't that create huge issues of ego?

nevermind, i'm loosing my train of thought.

i'm not saying it's wrong. i'm just asking why. which i believe is my right as a sikh(student). (once again, smiley is to show light-hearted tone)

But when it comes to Guru Ji, who gave you everything, then the money is better spent 'feeding the poor'. :homer

if that's what my guru ji tells me to do, then why not? there's no reason to hit yourself in the head over hukam.

I don't think anyone is arguing that this money can be better spent helping the poor, but at the same time you can't use this point to force someone to question their devotion towards their Guru. Just as you cannot force someone to stop wearing a 10 meter dumala because that cloth could be better used to help make clothes for the poor. They are going to do this because that is how they relate to their Guru. It is an expression of their Shardha, their Bhaavna towards the Guru.

You could i suppose question why did the devotees of the 10th Master offer the Guru clothes embroidered with Gold, why did they offer the Guru diamond and other precious metals? The Guru certainly did not acquire this from his own wealth, rather they were an offering out of Love from the disciples.

The question is not about maya, its whether the devotion of a Disciple justifies him/her placing the Guru above those who are needy. Because Devotion is very Subjective, to question the Devotion of someone who you do not know is a very bold move.

in a previous thread about the passing of Sant Mani Singh, the following statement was made:

i did not want to disrupt the thread regarding his passing, so i figured i'd start a new one.

what is the purpose of making a Bir of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in gold? isn't gold simply a manifestation of maya? of man's love for wealth?

couldn't said gold be used for a better purpose? Guru ji said that we should consider the mouth of the poor as the Guru's cash offering box. he never asked for gold that i know of...

i'm sorry, i'm not trying to say anything bad about a great sant, and i know i'm no one to question such an enlightened soul, but i just want to understand the meaning/purpose behind this momentous task.

bhul chuk maaf

Anything that can be acknowledged with the 5 senses is a part of Maya and that includes Sarbloh. I think it is very important to understand the intentions of the individual. It is said that the Guru Gobind Singh ji used to wear clothes which were embroiled with gold.

If one has such passion and a connection with their Guru, then their Shardha gives them the right to use whatever material for their Master. I think bottom line here is Devotion which is a very personal and subjective expression. In this devotion, the devotees have been known to do out of norm things, such is this expression of a disciple.

Similarly one would question the offering of flowers to their Master...to pluck that flower from its branch is essentially killing it. Had that flower remained on that branch it would've offered its fragrance to the thousands that would've passed by it. But when one is devoted to their Master the disciple in his love would shower their Master with flowers of all kind.

I made it very clear early on that Virginity etc is important and that i told her that if she is not comfortable witht that then please move on and find some one else. I told her that i hope she finds her soulmate etc and she told me that she was a virgin BUT she lied hence the problem. I duno what i have done to deserve this ive always been upfront about me and my beliefs AND she lied to me TO MY FACE. that kills me more cos the lies just made her character go down even more.........its just messed up man! i just feel lost atm.......................

Have you asked her why she lied to you?

....

(admin please dont delete this as i am not a member)

I have just found out that my soon to be wife has been with many men and this is troubling me ALOT! i havent been with anyone and waited and i feel so cheated and lied to!!!! i have fallen in love with her and she waited until i felt this way, i want to end it before i marry her i dont think she respects me, after all she lied to me!!! makes me so angry. what should i do!?

mod note: Ok topic has been allowed, if anything inappropriate is posted, posts will be deleted/edited.

She lied to you how? Did you ask her when you first met her and she lied to you about it? How did she cheat 'you'?

You act as if she stole something which belonged to you and then lied to you about it? Was it her choice what to do with her body or yours to enforce it on her? Did she force you to remain a virgin or did you choose to do so on your own?

If you have fallen in love and are now regretting doing so, then let me tell you such is not 'Love', only an impersonation of it.

She lied to my face and said that she had also waited, ive just been destroyed and your going on about how she lied to me and cheated me. she cheated me by deceiving me into this engagement thats how! she cheated me by playing with my emotions!

Often we are cause of our own misery. How much and How many times did you emphasize that Virginity is important to you before you asked her about hers? Did you give her the opportunity to answer honestly or did you create an expectation that her answer had to be yes?

There is nothing wrong in listening to Qawalis or any other kind of music provided you do not mistake the euphoria that one can get from music or singing with a spiritual experience. It's a bit like saying listening to some Bhangra song brought me closer to God!

Those Singhs in the video are a disgrace because they are dancing around and making a mockery of the Guru's Bana. Although the following Shabad relates to the Vaishnava Krishna Leela, it is relevant to any type of non-Kirtan musical or dramatic performance whose performers or audience try and pass it off as a spiritual experience.

The quote you posted my friend is completely out of context, it is no different than me posting the words of Kabir ji of "Raam Raam karta sab jag firay, Raam na payiya jaaee" in a thread where where people are talking about doing Jap/Simran.

If someone wishes to get 'mast' off KACHI bani, then they can do so without putting shame on Dasve Patshaa da roop. I cannot believe how lightly this is being taken. This is Guroo Gobind Singh Ji's own image he is doing besti of! The only source of rass for Guroo De Sikh is Guroo Di Bani, how shameful for someone with the form of Sache Patshaa to be sitting at the feet of a man singing false songs and showing himself to be completely absorbed in it.

Where's the naam rass?

I can't believe this is taken up so harshly. I suppose the 52 Kavis were also Kachay, they had no depth, no experience of divine inspiration in them that their words weighed enough to move another in such a trance. If they were indeed Kachay why would the Guru given them space in his court?

We are also inspired by the bani/words of Katha Vachiks, Gurmukhs. What do you suppose they do in the Gurudwara, they share their experience of Gurbani, their understanding or that divine realization the best they can. In the same light what do you suppose this is?? Is this not the Katha of the same realization but except it is sung...why do you suppose we get inspired by those Gurmukhs to a point where we put them up in our Avatars? Their books we tell others to read, their words we repeat as if they are our own, as if we have experienced them first hand? Are their words not inspiring enough to a point where you are left speechless, their words don't open the door to new experiences, new eyes to see the Guru?

How unfortunate that we have such tunnel vision that we can't see anyone not wearing a blue dastaar expressing that same Katha through Music. If you cannot feel the qwaali, then it is your loss my friend, not for the Singh in the Red pug who immersed himself in the words of Nusrat ji, in the expression of that Akal Purakh.

Not that my faith is shaken or anything like that its just that I don't really know what to say when someone asks me.

"why do you believe in God but not in leprechauns and fairies?"

Thanks

Before you can even begin to answer this question, ask yourself, Why Do I believe in God? Am I content in just believing that God exists or do I need to seek further? Am I content in just hearing of a water well or do I need to seek it out and drink from it? Am I thirsty enough?

What is Faith? What is Faith if it were to shake? What happens next when another comes and actually shakes your Faith? Will God still exists for you?

A child 'believes' in Santa Clauses, the tooth fairies, the elfs, the leprechauns, am I that child that needs distraction for my mind to entertain itself? Has God become that replacement for the mind?

The question has depth to it, don't dismiss it.

(admin please dont delete this as i am not a member)

I have just found out that my soon to be wife has been with many men and this is troubling me ALOT! i havent been with anyone and waited and i feel so cheated and lied to!!!! i have fallen in love with her and she waited until i felt this way, i want to end it before i marry her i dont think she respects me, after all she lied to me!!! makes me so angry. what should i do!?

mod note: Ok topic has been allowed, if anything inappropriate is posted, posts will be deleted/edited.

She lied to you how? Did you ask her when you first met her and she lied to you about it? How did she cheat 'you'?

You act as if she stole something which belonged to you and then lied to you about it? Was it her choice what to do with her body or yours to enforce it on her? Did she force you to remain a virgin or did you choose to do so on your own?

If you have fallen in love and are now regretting doing so, then let me tell you such is not 'Love', only an impersonation of it.

thank you for this wonderful link.

I made some kichari the other day and fed them to the hungry, some praised me for I was feeding the poor some food, but unknown to them the kichari was full of poison.

Bhagtas over the ages took upon both approaches to realizing god. Some have said that I don't know where you are God, but you know where I am, so you come to me.

It is the Laad, the playful relationship of a bhagat that can invoke such statements, not egos or lack of efforts on a seeker.

Buddha seeked this source for 7 years and until one day he renounced this seeking and just sat down, he put his mind aside his effort aside and just surrendered.....it was then he realized the source within, the nirvaan, the emptiness from which all manifests, the Shoonia.

It was then that 'it' came to him. If we are searching then the one who is searching continues to exist...the I continues to search and by default that which we seek with, the I is the reason we are separated. When this I is gone then who is the one seeking and that which this wall of I was holding back comes rushing in.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1pK4PtJiOPE&feature=related

This rendition of Amazing Grace is just mind blowing and blissfull.....everytime i hear these lyrics i'm just filled with silence.

It is only when that which is nor a He or a She that we are free to relate, convey our relationship with it how our heart wishes to.

When you begin to beg from God, God herself. The mother keeps on giving her child toys to play with because that is what the child wants. But when the Child seeks from her mother not toys, but the warmth of her mother, so she comes running to nurture her child.

I agree with all of u here

But one thing is that why did God bring her to my life last year. If only he was to separate us. I mean i never knew her before last year. If she hadnt come , life would have been usual for me.

Its bcoz she liked me , looked for me all those years, ultimately found me out and told her story although indirectly.

Whats more this girl marriage talks were going on since last year . Now she says that she fears that God will punish her for what she has done to me. I assured her he wont do bcoz its destiny. And that I will pray for her good.

But on the other hand I feel sad that this girl said that she wants to be frndz with me and a week has passed and she hasnt cared to check if her frnd is ok or not.

God brought her to your life, because you desired it. A mother gives her child a toy because the child cries for it, but then the mother takes it away because she intends for her child to grow up from it. The child cannot be attached to the toy his/her whole life...there must be progression and this progress is made through the Sanjoag and Vijoag.

Sanjoa Vijoag doe kaar chalavai, Lakhay aavay Bhaag....

How can you understand the taste of Sugar without Salt. How can you understand that you are attached without the removal of this attachment. Your cries are no different than the tears of a child who seek his toy, but you are not a child are you...you have the capacity and the understanding and the blessings of your Guru to make you realize that whatever it was that you had was not what you needed. The greatest solace for a child is not the toy that his mother bring for him, it is the caressing, the kissing, the proximity, her 'goaath', the warmth of the mother herself which provides the child with security, love and solace.

What is it that you seek from your mother?

But I feel all shattered and devastated. I have been crying since yesterday and cannot study or concentrate on work

Don't cry over spilled milk son. My own son is probably your age and I tell him there are thousands if not millions of girls on this planet. So you didn't get the one you wanted? Big deal. Dust yourself off and move on pilgram! Did someone like Jesus ever worry about things like this? I'm sure your Prophets didn't either.

It is important to not substitute a problem with another. The comment that there are many other fishes in the sea does provide some solace, but it is not he solution to the main problem which is the selfish attachments we make with one another and when those attachments are threatned or broken the pain and suffering manifest themselves. To move from one fish to another in hopes that the next one will bring me peace is the illusion that has led us astray.

Such moments of when we lose our attachments to someone are crucial in realizing that we are doing something wrong, not that perhaps the next person we attach ourselves with is the solution. The problem is attachment itself which leads us to suffering.

I wish to state that the discourse does not seem to reveal that Gurumaa is a 'cunning lady'. Sometimes it is necessary to explain to people basic things about religious texts which they read everyday but still do not seem to understand. Also, Gurumaa was born a Sikh but is above all religions. To know her well, please listen to her discourses every morning on Sony TV at 6.30PM. Also visit her website www.gurumaa.com for details about her meditation CDs and spiritual retreats, which thousands of devotees, not only from India, but round the world, attend each year.

we don't need to listen her.she is totally stupid and anti sikh lady...

we have our TRUE GURU.so we don't need hindu guru maa...mere kol mera baap TRUE GURU hai.

What are you talkign about??? Where in her post did she even remotely covney a position where she was placing GuruMaa ahead of the Gurus which would lead you to reply that you don't need GuruMaa and further create ignorant remaks by calling her stupid and anti-sikh???

It is easy to wake a man who is asleep, but to wake a man who is already awake, but pretends to be sleep is not an easy task. You know what you are feeling is MOH, yet you convince yourself that it is Love.

Love creates Freedom, Liberation, not Attachment or Possessiveness. Love her with freedom and enough Love to let her go because she is not yours and you are not hers. Countless lives we have attached ourselves to mortals and Lost, yet we knock on those same doors once more. Once more we open the wounds of past lives.

Whatever karma brought you together has run its course. You can continue to reach for her and further create more karma or you can begin to learn the lesson that is being taught to you of what attachment is. You can turn this experience into a negative one by sulking or you can create something very profound and positive experience out of this by examining the state of your mind objectively and comparing it to what the Guru has to say about our attachments that we hook ourselves into. Don't let this opportunity pass you by, use the tears to seek something more than her, something that does not die, something that will not get old, something that is ever-new and always there for you. Precious are your tears my friends, don't' waste them on someone who is but a fellow traveler on your journey. Her station has arrived, this is where she gets off, wish her well on her journey and send her off with love in your heart. But your journey must continue, look ahead to the possibilities this life is going to bring you.

The link below expresses a way that couldn't be put in a better way:

Hope this brings you some light on a dark day......also remember, This too will pass.

Any time you are feeling the urge to recite the words of your Master can become your Amrit Vela. For whom you recite the prayer is Timeless and for her any time is the right time.

i believe you can take the message/teachings from other faiths and apply them to betters one own Sikhi...but i have a question which i know no one here is a Christian but maybe someone can help

When on the cross, Jesus Christ said 'My God, Why hast thou forsaken me'...does anyone have a deeper appreciation to what Jesus meant when he said this?

The reason i ask is, somethings unless understood in the context in which they were said, can be misunderstood (this includes Gurbani too).

its maybe a long read, but worth it to see that event from a different perspective

Osho expresses this moment as such,

Jesus has done many miracles. One of the miracles is his miracle of transforming water into wine. These are metaphors – don’t take them literally. If you take them literally, you destroy their meaning, their significance. And if you start proving that they are historical facts, then you are stupid, and with you Jesus also looks stupid.

They are metaphors of the inner world. The inner world cannot be expressed literally, but symbolically – only symbolically. Turning water into wine simply means creating the eternal into time, creating that which remains into that which cannot remain.

If you keep water, sooner or later it will start stinking. But you can keep wine for ages, for centuries; and the longer it is there the better it becomes, the more powerful, the more potent it becomes. Wine is a metaphor for the eternal.

Jesus is transformed through his sacrifice. Nobody is ever transformed without sacrifice. You have to pay for it: the cross is the price that you pay for it. You have to DIE to be reborn. you have to lose all to gain God.

Jesus begat himself. That phenomenon happened on the cross. He hesitated for a time, he was

very much puzzled – it was natural. For a single moment he could not see God anywhere. All was lost, he was losing all; he was going to die and there seemed to be no possibility... That happens to every seed. When you put the seed into the earth, one moment comes when the seed is losing itself, and there must be hesitation – the same hesitation that happened to Jesus on the cross. The seed is dying, and the seed must cling to the past. It wants to survive – nobody wants to die. And the seed cannot imagine that this is not death, that soon it will be resurrected in a thousandfold way, that soon it will start growing as a sprout.

The death of the seed will be the birth of the tree, and there will be great foliage and flowering and fruits, and birds will come and sit on the branches and make their nests, and people will sit under the shade of the tree; and the tree will talk to the clouds and the stars in the night, and will play with the sky, and will dance in the winds; and there will be great rejoicing. But how can this be known to the poor seed which has never been anything else? It is inconceivable. That’s why God is inconceivable.

It cannot be proved to the seed that this is going to happen, because if the seed asks ’Then let me SEE what you are going to do’, you cannot make it available, you cannot make visible to the seed what is going to happen. It is going to happen in the future, and when it happens, the seed will be gone. The seed will never meet the tree. Man never meets God. When the man is gone, God descends.

Jesus hesitated, was worried, was bewildered. He shouted, almost shouted against the sky ’Why

have you forsaken me? Why? Why this torture for me? What wrong have I done to you?’ A thousand and one things must have crossed his mind.

The seed is dying, and the seed is completely oblivious to what is going to happen next. It is not

possible for the seed to conceive of that NEXT step, hence faith, hence trust is needed. The seed

has to trust that the tree will be born. With all the hesitation, with all kinds of fear, insecurities, with all kinds of anguish, anxiety – in spite of all of them – the seed has to trust that the tree will happen, that the tree is going to happen. It is a leap into faith.

And that leap happened to Jesus: he relaxed on the cross and he said ’Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done...’ His heart was palpitating. It is natural. Your heart will also palpitate, you will also be afraid when that moment of death comes to you, when that moment comes when your self disappears and you are losing yourself into a kind of nothingness, and there seems to be no way to survive, and you have to surrender.

You can surrender in two ways: You can surrender reluctantly, then you will miss the real point of it, then you will simply die and will be born again. If you can relax in deep acceptance, trust, if you can surrender without any resistance... That’s what Jesus did; that is the greatest miracle. To me that is the miracle – not that he gave health to somebody who was ill, or eyes to somebody who was blind, or cured the leprosy of somebody; or even helped Lazarus to revive, to come back to life – and he had died. No, those are not real miracles to me, they are all parables, metaphors. Every Master has given eyes to those who are blind, and ears to those who are deaf. Each Master has brought people out of their death that they call life, has called them out of their graves. Those are metaphors.

But the real miracle is when Jesus – in spite of all of his hesitations, worries, doubts, suspicions –

relaxes, surrenders, and says ’Thy will be done,’ that moment Jesus disappears, Christ is born.