Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!!!
I attend the Swindon diwaans weekly for 2.5 years and i am shocked at the amount of rumours that have escalated from peoples own perception of things. I am hurt that in a place where people are learning the Guru Granth Sahibs teachings is in much debate and also the place where the importance of NAAM SIMRAN on the Gur-shabad is stressed is also the target of nindeiyai.
Before I continue I would like to highlight the approach in which I have seen kh@lsa respond to swindon sangath member! Swindon sangath member has explained facts in where he promised to write your account of Swindon once you have satisfied your own conditions and to ask Bhai Sahib questions. Due to this, now you attempt to destroy his credibility and ur doing this by accusing Swindon sangath member of threats and thus drawing the attention away from the main reason for this discussion.
Munjoth singh has explained your queries using Gurbani and yet you are not prepared to let go of your own knowledge. With this you respond with wild comments such as ‘u are digging ur own grave’ when those who examine these talks very closely to work out who is credible and who is not, will see that you are going in circles.
The fact of the matter bro is that you have not done simran yourself. You rely on other peoples opinion and judge without experiencing anything yourself. I can applaud u on one thing, and that is that u did go to Swindon to check it out urself but THAT WAS IT. The questions you asked (to munjoth on a previous thread) were already explained in the diwaan and u didn’t take even a single thing with u except dukh from the diwaan. From what I perceive of this, you didn’t listen and went with a one track mind…hence not open to anything and already had a judgement.
I have read that u refer to anand Shabad ‘some anand shabad’. One can only listen to the anand Shabad if they do simran and with Waheguru’s kirpa. Also ‘amrit russ’ is only obtained through the simran of Waheguru mantra. You have stated that a person is only able to fight the 5 choor with the power of amrit and u are referring to this amrit coming externally (khanda bata). However Guru Sahib explains differently:
jin vaddiaaee thaerae naam kee thae ruthae mun maahi
Those who are blessed with the glorious greatness of Your Name - their minds are imbued with Your Love.
naanuk anmrith eaek hai dhoojaa anmrith naahi
O Nanak, there is only One Ambrosial Nectar; there is no other nectar at all.
naanuk anmrith munai maahi paaeeai gur purusaadh
O Nanak, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained within the mind, by Guru's Grace.
thinuee peethaa rung sio jinu ko likhiaa aadh
They alone drink it in with love, who have such pre-ordained destiny. ||1||
As you can see in accordance with Guru Granth Sahib Ji what munjoth singh explained matches. He explained that the punj piyaria will create amrit from this world and match exactly to what the amrit tastes like that is coming from the mind itself INTERALLY thanks to Waheguru Ji. This is obtained internally within the mind and only through the gur-shabad/gur-mantra. The following also confirms that amrit is only obtained through the ‘shabad’ AND it will also highlight another thing said that ‘doubts’ will occur until we obtain the true essence of Guru Sahibs teachings:
Awsw mhlw 1 ] (352-11)
Aasaa, First Mehl:
gurmiq swcI hujiq dUir ] (352-12, Awsw, mhlw 1)
Receiving the True Teachings from the Guru, arguments depart.
bhuqu isAwxp lwgY DUir ] (352-12, Awsw, mhlw 1)
But through excessive cleverness, one is only plastered with dirt.
lwgI mYlu imtY sc nwie ] (352-12, Awsw, mhlw 1)
The filth of attachment is removed by the True Name of the Lord.
(Meaning simran) AND
siqguru syiv AMimRq rsu cwKy ]3] (352-16, Awsw, mhlw 1)
Serving the True Guru, they drink in the Amrit, the Ambrosial Nectar. ||3||
clqau mnu rwKY AMimRqu cwKY ] (352-16, Awsw, mhlw 1)
The unstable mind is restrained by tasting this Nectar.
siqgur syiv AMimRq sbdu BwKY ] (352-16, Awsw, mhlw 1)
Serving the True Guru, one comes to cherish the Ambrosial Nectar of the Shabad.
swcY sbid mukiq giq pwey ] (352-17, Awsw, mhlw 1)
Through the True Word of the Shabad, the state of liberation is obtained.
nwnk ivchu Awpu gvwey ]4]13] (352-17, Awsw, mhlw 1)
O Nanak, self-conceit is eradicated from within. ||4||13||
So yes, indirectly you are correct that we need amrit but Guru Sahib is talking about the internal amrit and this is only obtained through naam simran and through the gur-shabad. Satguru ki seva is simran, seva of Guru’s ghar and Guru’s sangath is important also but in this contexts Satguru’s seva is giving your head/mind with ONE POINT OF FOCUS to Waheguru gur-shabad!
You have classed the Swindon sangath along the lines of brain washed, chela and sheep. To the contrary, due to the brahim giane I have obtained from Swindon (in which all has been from Gurbani) I have a much much much more open mind than I did before. I don’t see life the way I did before and its vital to note that u attended Swindon once whereas I have been attending with Waheguru’s kirpa for a few years. You also went with a closed mind and listened to Nindeyai whereas I did not. Also only those who do Nindeyai will hear it.
As for the remark of chela, as munjoth singh explained that our MIND is supposed to be the chela of Waheguru gur-shabad. Also this approach to the importance of the gur-shabad is stressed repeatedly at Swindon and to be honest I didnt adopt this approach of thinking until I went to Swindon due to the brahim giane expressed there.
Sikhs talk about giving there head to Waheguru, but it is not giving your head to Waheguru but your mind. When we do naam simran we are giving our mind to Waheguru in which we are trying to merge with the gur-shabad and become the chela of the gur-shabad. Saying and doing are 2 different things and simran is the key to give the mind to Waheguru (hence naam simran which is stressed in Swindon).
Another thing bro, you went there with your mind set already shaped, u only attended one diwaan and you haven’t done or started any simran urself. In order to understand most of what is discussed in Swindon is by doing the practical naam simran. If we don’t do simran then how can we aim to merge with Waheguru and experience his PRICELESS GIFTS of which he can only distribute with his will?
Read this carefully……….
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
bheiee paraapath maanukh dhaehureeaa ||
This human body has been given to you.
gobi(n)dh milan kee eih thaeree bareeaa ||
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.
avar kaaj thaerai kithai n kaam ||
Nothing else will work.
mil saadhhasa(n)gath bhaj kaeval naam ||1||
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel
of the Naam. ||1||
as munjoth has mentioned ‘koi an milavia mera preethum piyara’...if we really wanted to meet Waheguru we should do ANYTHING to meet Waheguru. there are souls out there searching long and hard and crying everyday to Waheguru so that they can merge with him. If we really have that much thirst to meet Waheguru then why are we not doing simran in which Gurbani tells us to do all the time:
guraa ik dahi bujhaa-ee.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||
not only that…but listen kh@lsa singh, IF u die before u reach Waheguru (I really hope u and everyone else in the world doesn’t) can we really tell Waheguru ‘I tried everything to meet u while I was alive?’. The fact of the matter is, you cant. Bhai Sahib stresses naam simran and meeting Waheguru (the Gurudwara is called Prabh Milna Ka Chao- have the desire to meet God)! Atleast you could have gone for 2 months (every Sunday) start your simran at home (swaas swaas simran) and have an open mind in what is going on. Its ridiculous to have a judgement on a place when u been there once and haven’t even tried to understand whats going on. Also when u are being told what is happened u are shutting off from what is being said. Ontop of it all, the only thing that will clear your doubts is SIMRAN! That’s it!!! What hurts me is that people don’t do simran and then formulate an opinion. How can u formulate an opinion on the teachings in Swindon about simran and spiritual experiences when u haven’t done any simran urself and had spiritual experience? There is no basis or foundation for ur argument except for the way in which u perceived things (the rumours that r going around). The only way u r going to find out if something is powerful is if u do it. Not only that but the reasons behind it will be explained to u (of the swaas swaas simran jugti if u come to Swindon and other things wil fall into place) and if u are still not satisfied then just do the simran and the reasons will unfold to u if u do it properly (with Waheguru’s kirpa alone).
What I also want to point out is the use of these ‘levels’ or ‘stages’. From what I can see they seem to be affiliated with ego and I can assure u that this is not the case! First of all, I refer to these as ‘stages of love’ the more simran we do, is inevitably showing our love to Waheguru. as explained below:
laekhaa likheeai mun kai bhaae
The account is written of the loves of the mind.
naanuk bheejai saachai naae
O Nanak, the Lord is won over only by His Name. ||2||
Gurbani explains to us that we can only win over Waheguru by doing naam simran and the more simran we do, IF Waheguru wills…the more gifts we get:
eaek naam dheeou mun munthaa binas n kuthehoo jaath
He gave my mind the Mantra of the Naam, the Name of the One Lord, which shall never perish or leave me. ||1||
sathigur poorai keenee dhaath
The Perfect True Guru has given this gift
Then the more GIFTS we get, the higher our stages of love increases for Waheguru, hence peoples level or stage increases. It seems as though people avaastha’s are linked to ego when people CAN NOT go any further with ego as explained in Gurbani that where there is ego there can be no NAAM. Therefore please do not link a person explaining there experiences or link avaastha’s to ego as this is just not the case. As stated in Gurbani:
thoo(n) karathaa karanaa mai naahee jaa ho karee n hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||
Just because someone does a lot of simran doesn’t mean they are going to get gifts, it depends on whether they are doing it properly (with the correct intentions, jugti’s) and also there karam and Waheguru’s kirpa which is the ultimate.
Also kh@lsa veer, there have been many questions posed over these last threads (I think in the other Nindeyai topic) on which u haven’t answered. Some singh (cant remember who) asked u to explain the jugti’s of roam roam simran (how to start it) and where one goes thereafter to meet Waheguru and refer to naam abiyaas books that u have said. someone requested where roam roam simran is stated in Gurbani:
romae rom rom romae mai gurumukh raam dhiaaeae raam
With each and every hair, with each and every hair, as Gurmukh, I meditate on the Lord.
raam naam dhiaaeae pavith hoe aaeae this roop n raekhiaa kaaee
I meditate on the Lord's Name, and become pure; He has no form or shape.
And
rom rom raviaa har naam
The Lord's Name permeates each and every hair of mine.
sathigur poorai keeno dhaan
The Perfect True Guru has given me this gift. ||1||
This is not a Shabad in which we just use this as an example and marvel on how much love Guru Sahib had for Waheguru, so that if his hair could say Gods name, they would!…if we are Sikh then we take all of Gurbani as fact (a point continually highlighted at Swindon) and thus this answers the ‘so called roam roam simran’ question and where it is told in Gurbani. Now as for the jugti, its explained by Bhai Seva Singh and Bhai Sahib when we are at the right stages of love (or hence state of mind). WHY THOUGH? U will find out if u come Swindon and do simran practically urself. The thing is, this thread has gone on 2 much and discussions has been drifting slightly to catch people out (eg I am glad u stuck to ur story) and a <admin-profanity filter activated> for tat conversation and ofcourse in which Sikhs can not keep a basic condition and thus express there radical opinion on the internet.
And what affects me the absolute most…and MOST OF ALL is that there are souls who could be reading this who are crying day and night to meet Waheguru and Nindeyai (what Gurbani tells us not to do) has stopped them! This is the most sad thing of all and not only is this <admin-profanity filter activated> for tat discussion an insult to Guru Sahibs Teachings but it is an big insult for someone coming into this wonderful dharam and because we cant lead by example it has set off a person dishearted. One thing I said to myself is that I wil go STRAIGHT to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not look at the action of other Sikhs as the Guru alone is complete and I thank the teachings I got at Swindon for this mentality. DO NOT PLAY WITH ANOTHER PERSONS LIFE. If u are so sure that Swindon is pakhand then please let people make there own minds up. If its that obvious that this is pakhand then I am sure 100% of the people that come will agree with u.
Just for those concerned on what I do at Swindon and I am sure kh@lsa singh can confirm this ATLEAST (cos no1 else does anything more except for Sathguru’s, Guru Ghars and Sangaths seva ):
Come to Swindon, listen to the diwaan for 3 or 4 hours (depending on however long and obtain amolak/priceless Brahim Giane) and then have langar, listen to or ask a question and listen to answers and go home. I have been doing this for 2.5 years and I only ask Bhai Sahib a question on spiritual experences. THAT’S IT! NOTHING ELSE MORE TO IT! Is this all that happens kh@lsa singh? Are there people bowing down to him? Are there people lavishing money around? Are people touching his feet and he just touching there heads as people do there days? Does he give time out of questions and answers to ask ANYTHING U WANT? Please answers these questions. Sorry, I think u may have already answered this but when u cant catch the Guru Sahib’s teaching out on one thing, u swiftly move to the other without acknowledging that u have nothing else to say in response.
Everything is going in accordance with the rehit maryada I can assure u! its just that u haven’t opened urself up to atleast try to understand whats going on. what I also don’t understand is why does there have to be poison on your questions? Like ‘what are all these fits about’ and someone mocked ‘its people hyperventilating’. Why cant Sikhs just ask the question ‘what is this happening, please could you tell me as I am confused’. Instead so much poison and time has been wasted in such conversation…if u didn’t understand the explanation or failed to accept the explanation (although u haven’t experienced ‘shabad surt’ [which is the name of what its called] or done simran urself) then just say so and as munjoth singh has said many times ‘everyones entitled to there own opinion’ then this conversation could have been resolved time ago!
U have also stated ‘how can Bhai Sahib have so much control over his chela’ or something along them lines. it’s the teachings that Bhai Sahib explains (brahim giane) using Gurbani that makes people appreciate the route they have now been given by Waheguru. People only get experiences by doing simran and it’s the akath katha, brahim giane from Gurbani and NAAM SIMRAN that people love, is that too hard to believe? Why is that so hard to belive? Bhai Sahib stresses to accept 100% of Gurbani, do naam simran and there is so much rumours that a separate thread/topic has been made for this? the thing is bro, its like having a sweet. Lets say this sweet is nice to all the people that have tasted it…and made an effort to walk out there comfort zone and go along way to buy it and they taste it and love it. They then want other people to try it and some people claim that it is actually poison, but yet they haven’t tried it themselves. As stated above:
jin vaddiaaee thaerae naam kee thae ruthae mun maahi
Those who are blessed with the glorious greatness of Your Name - their minds are imbued with Your Love.
naanuk anmrith eaek hai dhoojaa anmrith naahi
O Nanak, there is only One Ambrosial Nectar; there is no other nectar at all.
naanuk anmrith munai maahi paaeeai gur purusaadh
O Nanak, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained within the mind, by Guru's Grace.
thinuee peethaa rung sio jinu ko likhiaa aadh
They alone drink it in with love, who have such pre-ordained destiny. ||1||
That’s the same thing I feel here. The thing is, we are talking big things now. We are talking about the guru’s rehit maryada, we are talking about misleading people and how bad that is, we are talking about the Guru’s Teachings, we are talking about meeting Waheguru…the ULTIMATE! How can anyone do pakhand on these things bro? Guru Sahib explains to us what will happen to people who do pakhand of these things (as explained in Swindon by using Shabads from Gurbani)…tell me please…how can anyone with just a little bit of dharam (righteousness) do pakhand so much and sleep at night? The thing is…people say they are 100% sure about there route in meeting Waheguru while they are alive…but they have some little inkling in the back of there head. Just a little inkling on any doubt but I can assure u that I have absolute no doubts at all. For once in my life I have no questions and I am writing on this topic/thread thing not for me bro! munjoth singh and Swindon sangath member are not writing these because they can get some indirect phaal or something of that nature, it makes no difference to us.
On my final note, the only way ur doubts are going to get cleared is if u have them answered and come to Swindon and ask away. Not only that but furthermore if ur doubts don’t get cleared for whatever reason (if u don’t open urself up enough) then do simran:
salok.
Shalok:
tajahu si-aanap sur janhu simrahu har har raa-ay.
Give up your cleverness, good people - remember the Lord God, your King!
ayk aas har man rakhahu naanak dookh bharam bha-o jaa-ay. ||1||
Enshrine in your heart, your hopes in the One Lord. O Nanak, your pain, doubt and fear shall depart. ||1||
One last thing to point out...the brahim giane u obtain from Swindon, u will have to do the practical of it. When u learn how to drive a car, u can read all the theory but in the end u will have to learn how to drive. Same principle here, Guru Sahib tells us the jugti’s, explains the spiritual loves or stages of loves being felt by Bhaguts, Sants, Gurmukhs, etc AND MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE (as explained in Swindon) but we have to do the practial to experience what they experienced.
Take care
Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!!!
Ps. Sorry if I have offended anyone and kh@lsa veer I didn’t intend to be-little u in anyway just because u don’t do simran, but due to the nature of this converstion and discussion u have to note that what is being said all comes down to one thing…simran! Otherwise there can be no basis for discussion! Just don’t base major decisions on other peoples opinion because in the end, we all go alone (as stated in Gurbani and as expressed in Swindon):
asatpadee.
Ashtapadee:
jah maat pitaa sut meet na bhaa-ee.
Where there is no mother, father, children, friends or siblings
man oohaa naam tayrai sang sahaa-ee.
- O my mind, there, only the Naam, the Name of the Lord, shall be with you as your help and support.
And
chhootat nahee kot lakh baahee.
You shall not be saved by hundreds of thousands and millions of helping hands.
naam japat tah paar paraahee.
Chanting the Naam, you shall be lifted up and carried across.
But we have to work for this ‘stage’, we cant be given it on the plate! And thus Gurbani is saying do naam simran! Also for some people saying whether they do simran or not is a personal thing so hopefully u do, but if u do it gupt then atleast obtain the swaas swaas simran jugti, do abiyaas on that and then PRACTICALLY see what happens. Gurfateh!!!
