khalsaland

....but in ram avtar why name of shyam appears

Read Dr. Trilochan Singh's explanation

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com...t&Itemid=58

Veero I have great respect for nitnem banis ,sarb loh granth I daily do path of jap shaib and chapui shaib daily I just pointed the points of contrdiction sikhi is facing many enemies even small anti sikh r threatening the sikhi leave alone deras like sirsa dera and others we need attention there if these anti suceeding in elminating us who will defend the sikhi we have to deal with these anti sikh forces if neccessary by force then decide the issuse sitting peacefully as it is a fact both anti desam granth and pro desam granth disgraced the sikhi by fighting with eachother in holy gurdwaras with swords and other arms in hazoor shaib ,faidabad,and other places where were these people when sirsa dera, noormehilas were attacking singhs both these people apealed for peace like gandhi. I am proud to declare I alone took the step of stopping followers of sirsa dera from entering our locality and made enemies of his followers. One need initative which is not only missing in leaders but in common sikhs.

Sri Dasam Grant is not an issue of debate.

However there can be positive discussions which aim at understanding the essence of Gurbani.

Hence there is nothing like "Pro or Anti Dasam Granth". However there are believers and non believers of Guru's bani.

And the message of the entire panth and Akal Takhat has been clear to those non believers....."Shararti Ansar" (mischievous mongers)

Faridabad Cult doesn't even need any mention here. They are heretics who publically denigrate every bani of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib, even Nitnem, Amrit and Ardas.

And Hawk13 I would suggest that instead of writing posts based on hearsay you go and do some basic study on the banees that constitute our Nitnem. In one post you denounced Ramavtar without even knowing that couplets from the composition are part of Rehras Sahib. Swayya "Bahe Gahe Jab Te..." forms the last stanza of Ramavtar where Guru Sahib has clearly given the message that though he has heard of King Ram and has written about him, he doesn't believe in Ram (as God).

Hawk veer read prof. Hari Ram Gupta's account of History of Sikhs. He was a prominent proffessor in History at Panjab University India. His research into Sikhs of eighteenth century Sikhs is acclaimed in most academic circles as very deep and accurate. He was a clean shaven bania but was a Sikh. his family were sikhs since times of Guru Gobind Singh. he stated that the reason Charitripahian was compiled for two reasons.

1. To impart a moral lesson to young breed of Khalsa Sikh soldiers. To give them Sex education.

2. For entetainment.

(American soldiers get playboy magazines in afghanistan, for what?)

Khalsa won many battles but there is not a single account of any soldier having raped or molested any woman. Give me an example of this kind anywhere else.

Sorry, but you just went off-track here and used a wrong analogy.

Charitropakhyan imparts moral education. That explains your last statement, "Khalsa won many battles....."

what do you not like about the dasam granth, dalsingh?

I do think the parts that have been accepted into the daily prayers of Sikhs is bani but have yet to make a decision of Charitrio Pakyaan and Hikayaats and maybe some other parts.

Quite amusing..

Since when Sikhs have got this right to decide on the respect and authenticity of banee based on their own 'Mat', taste?

Never heard of such a talk until sometime ago.

P.S. Chaupai Sahib, part of Sikh prayer, is from Charitropakhyan

Here we go. Is Chaupai Sahib a complete rendition of Charitropakhyan?

Anyway, I am still studying it and haven't drawn any firm conclusions yet. Do you understand that?

Like we must switch off our brains completetly and swallow what you believe without question......

CHILL PILL DUDE!!

No need to jump off the chair...relax

I guess we should also start accepting all the 'questions' by Nirankaris, Namdharis, Bhaniyarewala, Ashutosh, Sacha Sauda. Why 'your' questions be of any more importance than theirs?

If you still have to make up your mind on Charitropakhyan, you still have not made up your mind on Chaupai Sahib...

Does this notion make any sense? "I believe in the salok in the end of Japuji Sahib but havent made up my mind on Japuji Sahib"

Get some information on the structure of the granth you are so keen on making decisions on.

what do you not like about the dasam granth, dalsingh?

I do think the parts that have been accepted into the daily prayers of Sikhs is bani but have yet to make a decision of Charitrio Pakyaan and Hikayaats and maybe some other parts.

Quite amusing..

Since when Sikhs have got this right to decide on the respect and authenticity of banee based on their own 'Mat', taste?

Never heard of such a talk until sometime ago.

P.S. Chaupai Sahib, part of Sikh prayer, is from Charitropakhyan

..coming back to the topic of this thread

A small advice to the owner(s)/moderators of SPN. If you respect the banee of the Tenth Master (as one of you has claimed) then your kirpan should also shake in its scabbard when someone makes a derogatory remark about it.

As someone very well said, "We as Sikhs respect even the jorhe (shoes) of Guru Sahibs. We should think twice about the language we use while addressing a granth that contains the banees of Nitnem, Amrit and Ardas")

Better done than said...

UKGuptKaur,

I should start by writing this. No one has ever denied that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the eternal Guru. (Just think, it was the Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib who just last year celebrated the tercentenary of Guruship to Sri Guru Granth Sahib with full zeal and enthusiasm). This fact should be food for thought.

Secondly, Yes, no one can claim to be a Sikh without believing in the banee of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Thats what the definition of the Sikh (given in Sikh Rehat Maryada) also says. You cannot initiate someone to Sikhism without using the banee of the Tenth Master.

Sikh's Nitnem, Ardas, Amrit partially comes from the banee of the Tenth Mater. And that is his legacy to us Khalsas.

Arguing over what was recited, and what can be recited is stepping into the quagmire of blasphemy.

Saying that Sikhs existed before the banee of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is akin saying that Sikhs can also exist without the Kakkars.

Finally, loving both the father and a mother is not a sin, is it? If a person says he loves his mother too, it doesnt really mean he is saying "he hates his father". Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth, though mutually exclusive, are complementary to each other.

As someone else said, Sindhis also believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. But they are not Sikhs. Its the concept of organisational religion which makes us Sikhs. And this organisational religion gets its inspiration from Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Dasam Granth, Vaaran Bhai Gurdas, Rehatnames etc. We ought to respect these and believe in these if we want to be a part of Khalsa brotherhood.

Did anyone realise that the addition of the names of 35 Bhagats is at the expense of 40 Mukte...yes they have removed the mentioning of 40 Mukte from the Ardas too...

Well thats what the notorious Sikh Missionary Colleges have been preaching since ages...that 40 Mukte never existed...and now this has been implemented by even more notorious missionaries (influenced by Inder Ghagga).....

What a Shame!

Interestingly they have adopted the Dohira which was proposed by SikhRi in their controverisal syllabus and for which they have been criticised in the panthic circles. All these organisations are hand in glove...their main aim is to disintegrate the fabric of Sikhi...

Though one part of me is totally disgusted at reading this news, the other part is happy that these people are self declared Guru Nindaks and self declared walk-outs from the panth...They can call themselves as Ghaggiyes, Kale Afghaniyes, Prof Darshaniyes, Missionariyes, Martin Lutheriyes or whatever, but they will not be called Sikhs from now on...

Gurdwara is a place where Guru's teachings are followed...The place in Finland has ceased to be called a Gurdwara...Efforts should be made to bring the Maharaj Saroop from there with full respect!

Sharing this informative link:

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63

For your kind information, I'm very much pro Dasam Granth, and have done bit research on all of the Banis in it, including those that were deleted by Sodhak Committee and/or Banis in other Nihang gutkas etc.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

My post was entirely about Dr Jaggi and his claim about Bhai Mani Singh letter. I didnt intend to judge your stance on Sri Dasam Granth....Good to know about your efforts.

That letter is forgery. In those times all words used to be written without any spaces. And that one has, thus making it highly unauthentic. Dr. Jaggi has proven this.

Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi never used the word 'fake' for the letter as has been forced upon his arguments by the likes of Daljit Singh, Jagjit Singh, JS Mann and many Kale Afghanis. This is also evident from the text which is quoted here. He is an academician and he made his study and gave his 'views' without jumping to any harsh conclusions.

And all the points raised by Jaggi have been academically rebutted by Dr. Harbhajan Singh, a noted historian on Sri Dasam Granth. His counter arguments can be read here

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...-&Itemid=64

P.S For those who are so keen on taking Jaggi's words as holy should read the following news.

http://www.punjabheritage.org/content/view/798/29/

"In the 26-page introduction, the author (Jaggi) has raised a question whether the hymns in Guru Granth Sahib, devoted to Guru Nanak Dev, were authored by him (the first Sikh Master) or his co-authors also made some contribution."

online steek:

http://www.dasamgranth.org/dasamgranth/translations/

online search engines:

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?c=t

http://searchgurbani.com/megasrch.php?Param=punjabi

With respect, the term literature is used for "writings" or something in a written format.

But you have conveniently avoided my above query which is since when has the Bachitar Natak been termed the "Sri Guru Dasam Granth Sahib Ji"?

My understanding is that Guruship was given to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Guru Gobind Singh Ji - and not to anything else?

Dara Singh,

Dont just copy paste the views of Darshan Ragi, Kala Afghana and other missionaries here. Never in history Sri Dasam Granth was called by the name Bachittar Natak! This is another misinformation propagated by uneducated missionaries.

First find out what is the difference between Bachittar Natak and Sri Dasam Granth.

You would obviously not call gurbani as literature unless you have some kind of a malice intent.

Thanks for posting this. Amazing Keertan by Shiromani Ragi Bhai Balbir Singh Ji as always. Bhai Sahib gets all respect for confronting Guru Nindaks like Sarna and Darshan Ragi....If not for Sarna's support Darshan Ragi would not have dared to spell venom against Gurbani in every Delhi Gurdwara he goes to. Shame on them!

if sangat wants to discuss such topics then do it while acting like mature adults.

article below gives a nice calm insight to the arguement put forward by the likes of singhni wannabe,

>>>>>

http://www.sikhism101.com/node/267

Can Dasam Granth be installed parallel to Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

A Sikh journalist recently wrote an article which highlighted the rule written in the Panthic Rehat Maryada that no other book is allowed to be installed parallel to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, the author of that article justified Dasam Granth being Parkaash (installed) next to Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib and Takht Sri Patna Sahib by the fact that a 'Takht' is different to a Gurdwara. The author goes on to argue that the Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats and hints that Dasam Granth needs to be installed next to Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in a slightly smaller canopy) in order to infuse the warrior spirit and balance the Saint-Warrior aspect. A response to this topic is below:

STATUS OF DASAM GRANTH

The Sri Akaal Takht in its recent Hukamnama (edict) has made it clear that the Dasam Granth has an integral position and status in Gurmat. Sri Akal Thakht has concluded any debate on Dasam Granth with a suitable response.

BIR RASS & DASAM GRANTH

Some argue or subtly suggest that the Granth with the warrior spirit is the Dasam Granth. In the recent debate on Dasam Granth, many said that it is the Dasam Granth that brings Bir Rass in the Khalsa. This does not make sense and is misleading. Indeed, the Dasam Granth has many amazing banis which are unquestionable and inspire Bir Rass in Gursikhs, but it not correct to assume that without Dasam Granth, Sikhs will not have warrior spirit.

We need to recognise the Bir Rass was present in Sikhi before the Dasam Granth was revealed by Guru Sahib. Guru Nanak Dev Ji had the virtue of spirit when he called Babur by the name Zabur (evil tyrant). The sixth guru, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji revealed Miri–Piri and successfully won four battles. Not just our Guru Sahibaan, but great Gursikhs such as Bhai Biddhi Chand ji had Bir rass blessed upon them. So this quality has been present from the beginning.

NAAM HAS EVERY VIRTUE

Throughout time to present, anyone who has given his/her head to the Guru has been blessed with Naam. Those who sincerely japp naam 24/7 find that negative emotions within them get significantly reduced, and replaced by positive virtues. In some Gursikhs, they are blessed with more humility, others more sehaj, others more wisdom, and others more Bir rass, and many more of every virtue. The power of naam has no limits.

SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI IS COMPLETE & PERFECT IN EVERY WAY

As Sikhs we need to be careful. Quite often in our “shardaa” (devotion) for one thing, we may inadvertently and unintentionally question the supremacy of another. It is important to consider things with foresight and balance. This may be the case of Dasam Granth and Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Some Sikhs, not all, in their “sharda” for promoting the Dasam Granth in the face of questioning of it by anti-Dasam Granth lobby, have confused this promotion of Dasam Granth with the many issues of parallel parkaash (installation). As such two very different issues have become meshed into one.

We have to realise that Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect is every manner. It is perfectly complete, with every virtue in it including Bir Rass.

Our father, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who was also complete and perfect in every way, made the choice himself in his own perfect wisdom to not include his banis in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We accept his perfect wisdom, even though many of us in our limited wisdom may wonder why his banis are not in there. But we must accept that even without these banis Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has the complete message for humanity for all time.

ISSUES WITH THE PARALLEL PARKAASH AND TWO HUKAMNAMAS

Almost every Gurdwara in the Panth recognises the supreme authority of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Only a handful of gurdwaras have parallel parkaash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Dasam Granth and the not often mentioned Sarbloh Granth. It is the belief of one or two groups that the Guru is only complete when these three Granths are together. They have propagated this belief, and are especially propagating it within the minds of new Sikh youth who lack knowledge of Panjabi, history, Panthik norms and Gurbani to a degree where they can challenge it with reasoned debate.

For those who believe in parallel parkaash and take two hukamnamas (edicts) at the end of a divaan after Ardaas, is not the hukammana from solely Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji enough?

As Sikhs we need to consider how this “shardaa” (devotion) is indirectly challenging the supremacy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The bani of the Dasam Granth is in our Nitnem (daily prayer), Ardaas, Amrit sanchaar, keertan, etc. It has a highly virtuous place in the Panth. Some may say it is revered above the Vaars of Bhai Gurdas ji, and the rehitnamas of Bhai Nand lal ji, others say it is equivalent with them to enhance the core message within Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Either way, its status is will always remain integral in the Sikh faith without a doubt.

But to place Dasam Granth on par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then state the Guru is only complete with both Dasam granth and Sarbloh Granth is incorrect and blasphemous. Surely then we humans are introducing something which Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not. Further before elevating the Sarbloh Granth to such a high level, Sikhs need to do considerably more research into it.

CONCLUSION

* Bir Rass and the concept of Sant-Siphai (Saint-Warrior) is essential in Sikhi. While Dasam Granth enhances this within, it is incorrect to suggest the Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji promotes Naam, which has every virtue in it.

* The Dasam Granth is integral to Sikhi, as confirmed by the Sri Akaal Takht Sahib.

* Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect & complete in every manner, as blessed to us by our Guru Sahibaan. We do not need to introduce via our own “shardaa” other Granths in a delusion that the Guru is only complete with them. This is a direct challenge to the completeness and sovereignty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

* Equally the hukamnama from Guru ji is complete, and there is no need for two hukamanams based upon parallel parkaash. In fact, if only everyone in the Panth lovingly followed just the hukamnama from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we would have a completely different Panth that is more Guru-oriented, spiritual, and united.

http://www.sikhism101.com/node/267

The above article has failed miserably to understand the essence of the original writeup it is referring to.

Especially when it claims that "The author goes on to argue that the Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats"

The original article does not argue that Sikh Rehat Maryada only applies to gurdwaras and not Takhats.

Here the original article

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63

Parkash of Sri Dasam Granth is a non-issue and had never been an issue throughout Sikh history (Read John Malcolm's account of maryada of Gurmatta that he witnessed in Amritsar in early 1800s)......Only the detractors would come up with such issues and excuses...

Here are the names of some of the committee members of Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Model Town Jalandhar

President: Gursher Singh

Secretary: Surinderjit Singh Gwalior

Joint Secretary: Amarjit Singh Walia

Phone of the Gurdwara Sahib: 0181-2440308

Inder Singh Ghagga, a famous communist in the garb of Sikhi who openly supports Kala Afghana and his ideology, doesnt believe in Naam Simran, Dasam Bani has been invited by Gurudwara Sri Guru Singh Sahib, Model Town Jalandhar on Guru Gobind Singh Sahib's Gurpurab.

Akal Takhat Sahib in 2006 had taken cognizance of his Guru Nindya and issued a hukamnama saying that "Until Ghagga appears before Akal Takhat and and seeks an apology for his anti-Gurmat writings, he and his supporters should not be allowed to speak from any Gurdwara Sahib or Panthic stage"

One can read the Akal Takhat Sahib hukamnama here..

http://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/2839/2006-10-21.html

Its time to implement that hukamana and stop this Guru Nindak.

Singhs are requested to contact the committee of the Gurdwara and convey the contents of the hukamnama...

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...a&Itemid=77

...a lesson to the likes of Prof Darshan Ragi who are hell bent upon misleading the Sangat with their skewed ideologies

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Ji, I just want to make sure. Is the Professor Darshan Singh, the one that has been part of the Dasam Granth controversey, is he the Head of Dept. Guru Nanak Sikh Studies, Punjab University, Chandigarh? Or is it another Prof. Darshan Singh? I would like to know urgently as I think he might be attending an event in the area.

Fateh

Dr. Darshan Singh, Punjab Univ, Chandigarth is different from Prof Darshan Singh (ragi)

First of all report isnt in English and i can't decipher that punjabi one...

Second, maybe what JS mann says is true, coz he also refers to Piara Singh Padam's work, where in all 4 birs of Dasam Granth, Padam gives each n every composition in it..

Uggardanti was never part of Dasam Granth as far as i know..

As Mike Singh said the best way to understand this is by reading the actual Sodhak Committee Report.

Rest, what XYZ says is irrelevant.

bumpp

any hukamnamay in regards to Dasam Granth Sahib...?

----------------------

Approved by the 5 Singh Sahiban at Sri Akal Takht Sahib on 27-11-2006

Mata No. 2

Some mischievous miscreants have been carrying out misleading parchar about Dasam Granth through the media, whereas Panthik scholars heeding the edict of Sri Akal Takht Sahib from 14 May 2000 have remained silent, after deep consideration the 5 Singh Sahibans have decided that Panthik scholars should refute the baseless claims of these mischievous miscreants using examples from Sikh history and the divine light of Gurmat.

Guru Rakha

(Joginder Singh)

Jathedar

-------------------

you can find more documents/hukamnamas here...

http://www.santsipahi.org/patshahi10/enter.html