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Barfi n Mithai
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Okay, teach me how you would interpret the rahao tuk i provided. So you are saying sining Vaheguru praises is not a Sikhs life occupation?
I am saying you can do both. Doing santhiya or vichaar allows people to understand how deeply or how literally they need to interpret bani. There are some good books on how to understand bani which will basically help you develop a better understanding on how deeply and how literally to take bani. I have some vaars which I believe mostly are in Panjabi but I can send them to you if you would like.
Gurbani is written in poetry. Poetry uses similes, alliterations, metaphors. The tuk you refer to cannot be taken literally because what if you cannot speak - how are you going to sing Gods praises? Most of us would agree that we cannot take 'singing' to mean literally singing. My advice is to always interpret the whole panna that the tuk was from. For instance there is a very famous tuk where Guru Gobind Singh says that 'Sikh pyara muj ko nahi' - if we all started to quote this then it means I don't like Sikhs but then the next bit says 'rehat pyaari muj ko'. Basically the guru said it was about following his teachings and practising that mattered not being called Sikh. So lets look at the whole panna of your tuk.
ijin idnu kir kY kIqI rwiq ] jin dhin kar kai keethee raath || The One who created the day also created the night. Ksmu ivswrih qy kmjwiq ] khasam visaarehi thae kamajaath || Those who forget their Lord and Master are vile and despicable. nwnk nwvY bwJu snwiq ]4]3] naanak naavai baajh sanaath ||4||3|| O Nanak, without the Name, they are wretched outcasts. ||4||3|| rwgu gUjrI mhlw 4 ] raag goojaree mehalaa 4 || Raag Goojaree, Fourth Mehla: hir ky jn siqgur sqpurKw ibnau krau gur pwis ] har kae jan sathigur sathapurakhaa bino karo gur paas || O humble servant of the Lord, O True Guru, O True Primal Being: I offer my humble prayer to You, O Guru. hm kIry ikrm siqgur srxweI kir dieAw nwmu prgwis ]1] ham keerae kiram sathigur saranaaee kar dhaeiaa naam paragaas ||1|| I am a mere insect, a worm. O True Guru, I seek Your Sanctuary. Please be merciful, and bless me with the Light of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1|| myry mIq gurdyv mo kau rwm nwmu prgwis ] maerae meeth guradhaev mo ko raam naam paragaas || O my Best Friend, O Divine Guru, please enlighten me with the Name of the Lord. gurmiq nwmu myrw pRwn sKweI hir kIriq hmrI rhrwis ]1] rhwau ] guramath naam maeraa praan sakhaaee har keerath hamaree reharaas ||1|| rehaao || Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam is my breath of life. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my life's occupation. ||1||Pause|| hir jn ky vf Bwg vfyry ijn hir hir srDw hir ipAws ] har jan kae vadd bhaag vaddaerae jin har har saradhhaa har piaas || The servants of the Lord have the greatest good fortune; they have faith in the Lord, and a longing for the Lord. hir hir nwmu imlY iqRpqwsih imil sMgiq gux prgwis ]2] har har naam milai thripathaasehi mil sa(n)gath gun paragaas ||2|| Obtaining the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, they are satisfied; joining the Sangat, the Blessed Congregation, their virtues shine forth. ||2|| ijn hir hir hir rsu nwmu n pwieAw qy BwghIx jm pwis ] jin har har har ras naam n paaeiaa thae bhaageheen jam paas || Those who have not obtained the Sublime Essence of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, are most unfortunate; they are led away by the Messenger of Death. jo siqgur srix sMgiq nhI Awey iDRgu jIvy iDRgu jIvwis ]3] jo sathigur saran sa(n)gath nehee aaeae dhhrig jeevae dhhrig jeevaas ||3|| Those who have not sought the Sanctuary of the True Guru and the Sangat, the Holy Congregation-cursed are their lives, and cursed are their hopes of life. ||3|| ijn hir jn siqgur sMgiq pweI iqn Duir msqik iliKAw ilKwis ] jin har jan sathigur sa(n)gath paaee thin dhhur masathak likhiaa likhaas || Those humble servants of the Lord who have attained the Company of the True Guru, have such pre-ordained destiny inscribed on their foreheads. Dnu DMnu sqsMgiq ijqu hir rsu pwieAw imil jn nwnk nwmu prgwis ]4]4] dhhan dhha(n)n sathasa(n)gath jith har ras paaeiaa mil jan naanak naam paragaas ||4||4|| Blessed, blessed is the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, where the Lord's Essence is obtained. Meeting with His humble servant, O Nanak, the Light of the Naam shines forth. ||4||4|| rwgu gUjrI mhlw 5 ] raag goojaree mehalaa 5 || Raag Goojaree, Fifth Mehla: kwhy ry mn icqvih audmu jw Awhir hir jIau pirAw ] kaahae rae man chithavehi oudham jaa aahar har jeeo pariaa || Why, O mind, do you plot and plan, when the Dear Lord Himself provides for your care? sYl pQr mih jMq aupwey qw kw irjku AwgY kir DirAw ]1] sail pathhar mehi ja(n)th oupaaeae thaa kaa rijak aagai kar dhhariaa ||1|| From rocks and stones He created living beings; He places their nourishment before them. ||1|| myry mwDau jI sqsMgiq imly su qirAw ] maerae maadhho jee sathasa(n)gath milae s thariaa || O my Dear Lord of souls, one who joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, is saved. gur prswid prm pdu pwieAw sUky kwst hirAw ]1] rhwau ] gur parasaadh param padh paaeiaa sookae kaasatt hariaa ||1|| rehaao || By Guru's Grace, the supreme status is obtained, and the dry wood blossoms forth again in lush greenery. ||1||Pause|| jnin ipqw lok suq binqw koie n iks kI DirAw ] janan pithaa lok suth banithaa koe n kis kee dhhariaa || Mothers, fathers, friends, children and spouses-no one is the support of anyone else. isir isir irjku sMbwhy Twkuru kwhy mn Bau kirAw ]2] sir sir rijak sa(n)baahae t(h)aakur kaahae man bho kariaa ||2|| For each and every person, our Lord and Master provides sustenance. Why are you so afraid, O mind? ||2|| aUfy aUif AwvY sY kosw iqsu pwCY bcry CirAw ] ooddae oodd aavai sai kosaa this paashhai bacharae shhariaa || The flamingoes fly hundreds of miles, leaving their young ones behind. iqn kvxu KlwvY kvxu cugwvY mn mih ismrnu kirAw ]3] thin kavan khalaavai kavan chugaavai man mehi simaran kariaa ||3|| Who feeds them, and who teaches them to feed themselves? Have you ever thought of this in your mind? ||3|| siB inDwn ds Ast isDwn Twkur kr ql DirAw ] sabh nidhhaan dhas asatt sidhhaan t(h)aakur kar thal dhhariaa || All the nine treasures, and the eighteen supernatural powers are held by our Lord and Master in the Palm of His Hand. jn nwnk bil bil sd bil jweIAY qyrw AMqu n pwrwvirAw ]4]5] jan naanak bal bal sadh bal jaaeeai thaeraa a(n)th n paaraa//iaa ||4||5|| Servant Nanak is devoted, dedicated, forever a sacrifice to You, Lord. Your Expanse has no limit, no boundary. ||4||5|| rwgu Awsw mhlw 4 so purKu raag aasaa mehalaa 4 so purakhu Raag Aasaa, Fourth Mehla, So Purakh ~ That Primal Being: <> siqgur pRswid ] ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh || One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: so purKu inrMjnu hir purKu inrMjnu hir Agmw Agm Apwrw ] so purakh nira(n)jan har purakh nira(n)jan har agamaa agam apaaraa || That Primal Being is Immaculate and Pure. The Lord, the Primal Being, is Immaculate and Pure. The Lord is Inaccessible, Unreachable and Unrivalled. siB iDAwvih siB iDAwvih quDu jI hir scy isrjxhwrw ] sabh dhhiaavehi sabh dhhiaavehi thudhh jee har sachae sirajanehaaraa || All meditate, all meditate on You, Dear Lord, O True Creator Lord. siB jIA qumwry jI qUM jIAw kw dwqwrw ] sabh jeea thumaarae jee thoo
jeeaa kaa dhaathaaraa || All living beings are Yours-You are the Giver of all souls. hir iDAwvhu sMqhu jI siB dUK ivswrxhwrw ] har dhhiaavahu sa(n)thahu jee sabh dhookh visaaranehaaraa || Meditate on the Lord, O Saints; He is the Dispeller of all sorrow. hir Awpy Twkuru hir Awpy syvku jI ikAw nwnk jMq ivcwrw ]1] har aapae t(h)aakur har aapae saevak jee kiaa naanak ja(n)th vichaaraa ||1|| The Lord Himself is the Master, the Lord Himself is the Servant. O Nanak, the poor beings are wretched and miserable! ||1||This Panna is referring to people who have forgotten God when our purpose of life is God. This purpose of life is translated as God is the 'best occupation'. In terms of real life this is any occupation where you have God or Sarbat da bhalla in mind. As long as you haven't forgotten God you can work but whilst working you must remember sarbat da bhalla. As Sikhs this is our dharmic occupation. People can do that with any job that they choose to do.
while your ideas sound very logical. I saw none of it supported by Gurbani.
Do you work?
Current modern day working lifestyle is genuinely incompatible with those who want to engage Naam Abhiyaas. I speak from experience. The norm of being over worked and underpaid in modern day capatalist enviroment is something you have yet to endure.
Lets not even talk about the bad sangat vibe.
24/7 naam abhiyaas doesnt come easy to all either.
You can ask me instead - I work and I am a fully rehat keeping singhni. I work long hours often 15 hour days, I also work on my rota without weekends or a single day off. Currently I am on that part part of my rota. I did Monday to Friday days and have just done a weekend of nights. If you think this is bad, as I get more senior will be doing 72 hours continuously. So not only do I go from long days but I also go from days to nights and then I have slots where I will do a day and a night and back into a day and another night again i.e. 48 hours continuous.
Thankfully I am not underpaid and I get a very decent salary but the point is that with my intensity of work load I manage to keep my rehat absolutely fine. It is compatible if you want to do it. None of us complain that we had to find time to eat or go to the toilet, we all somehow manage to find time for these activities so why not manage to find time to do prayers? The Gold Standard a sikh is supposed to do is in the rehat maryada and you can fit that into working life. Also the bad sangat vibes are an excuse because you are your own independent person - if you want them to affect you then they will- but if you don't then they will not.
100% agree, currently i am doing 10 to 16 hours of work a day without any days off. These posters talk about worldly pursuit are inexperienced in the real world of work and environment. Hence their theories don't hold true to Gurbani. 24/7 naam abhiyaas is the only thing that matters even when a person is making financial gains in the high six figures plus helping others along the way. There are days i ask myself why, and for what am I doing it.
I will guarantee you that I work longer hours than you do and I manage it. Like I said above we need to be careful in how we interpret tuks. If your understanding of 24 hour naam abhiyaas is to sit down for 24 hours to say waheguru then this is impossible as all humans need to sleep, eat, and do bodily functions like bathing and toileting so you cannot do it for 24 hours. Also the Gurus strongly said to not do this when they asked people to follow a ghristi jeevan. When bani refers to the naam being your breath of life it doesn't literally mean you stop breathing air and now you breathe a substance called naam. What it actually means is that you carry on breathing air but whilst breathing air you are thinking or being in naam. Thinking or being in naam does not mean you have to say waheguru. Naam is more than saying a word. What it actually means is that in every moment you are working for God and sarbat da bhalla therefore naam or God has become your 'breath' and your 'occupation'. In summary you do your normal job, just like you breathe air and within that normal job you make sure all thoughts and actions are in accordance to the teachings of naam and for sarbat da bhalla and this process will slowly become unconscious. Breathing is an unconscious process that we don't have to think about - similarly naam will become an unconscious process that just happens on its own. The best way to understand this is to study psychology as it talks about how the consciousness can be made unconscious.
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Bhenji, that is the side effect of a timeworn practice of reading books.
Tusi ta aapi kehnde ne ke sikhiaa sabh tau jaroori hai, but you object to people demonstrating this same education in their manner of speech? I don't understand.
I didn't say I was against 'flowery' language. I said with the flowery writing style it gives the impression that the logic is flowing but actually the logic doesn't follow. Here is what I wrote to prove that.
Also the logic in your comments follows through only at a superficial level and most people don't realise this because you use too many 'flowery words' to give a sense of 'eloquency' but when I simplify your content into common words that people use in everyday speech you can start to see where the logic doesn't follow through.
Now lets discuss this
Well, things aren't black and white. I'm still formulating my opinions on various issues. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I have the answers to everything. Sometimes it's devil's advocate, other times I'm trying to gauge other's opinions and views to aid my understanding on a subject. I'd rather be flexible and open to all points of view than corner myself into a place where I cannot accept another point of view that doesn't chime with my own pre-conceived notions, prejudices and bias.
If I may critique your personality and powers of comprehension for a moment. You're too idealistic. You either live in a bubble where the theory has literally translated into reality - in which case lucky you - or you're ignorant to the fact that noble intentions and the like rarely translate so neatly when applied to the rawness and unpredictability of the human experience.
I'd say your worldview would be admirable if you were in your teens, but I'm guessing you're well into your 20's, and as such your understanding of matters smacks of a paucity of life experience and a heck of a lot of self-righteous delusion. I guess a lot of that can be attributed to the extreme feminist doctrine you were fed during your formative years, so I guess in some respects you aren't entirely to blame.
But I'm very touched you think I use flowery language. You're making me blush.
All I've done is explain the Sikhi Gold Standard Ghristi lifestyle as dictated by the Gurus - this is what the Gurus have taught us and it is what all Sikhs should strive for. I am not saying its easy but its worth the struggles just like how people fought for Turbans to not be thought of as 'hats'.
I have not expressed preconceived notions, prejudices or biases. I think your trying to sound clever again and have used these words inappropriately. Also people don't have 'powers of comprehension' - another flowery string of words that actually doesn't make sense. I don't mind eloquent words but they need to be used appropriately to convey the correct meaning. I accept that may offend you and you will try to belittle everything I have written as a result.
However if your saying what I have written 'is idealised, smacks a paucity of life experience and self-righteous delusion' then thats what your saying to the teachings of the Guru and that is what your saying to the Vision the Guru had for his Sikhs. Just so that you know - I am not in my twenties - thirties is more accurate. :biggrin2:
I guess a lot of that can be attributed to the extreme feminist doctrine you were fed during your formative years, so I guess in some respects you aren't entirely to blame.'This is a personal jibe because I said your flowery words means people don't see that you sometimes don't have logic. I don't respond to personal jibes - also feminists are not about 'sikhs' reaching the top. Feminism is something different so I think you've used the wrong word again.
Singh Ji, haven't you heard of the unwritten rule whereby 'flowery language' is perfectly acceptable when used by a person whose opinions and thoughts align with your own, but whenever someone who doesn't share your opinions on the world dares to slip in an exotic synonym or two into a sentence, then all of a sudden it's a sign of arrogance and being an intellectual lightweight?
I simply wanted to make you aware that the writing style is unclear in its logic and people are not noticing that because of the 'flowery' impressions. I didn't mean to offend you but its something to be aware of.
If you want to know - then I do have an opinion on how language should be used - I studied languages and literature - there are rules on when it is correct to use metaphors, alliteration, eloquent speech and when it is not appropriate to use them but that is not what I wrote about at all. My goal was not to make that comment to explain how to use languages or teach people; it was just to make you aware of things. If people want to learn then go to university and study languages.
BhenJi, I haven't even eaten my cornflakes yet and I'm having to put up with so much aggro so early in the day. Whatever happened to the holiness of the Sabbath? Bare Kaljug.Not good to read this when your hungry - sorry to have hurt you so much! I didn't realise that this could have hurt so much. You should eat - I have to eat my wheat-a-bix too (just finished my night shift). Also I am not going to reply to anything else after this because I have too much going on career wise. I will let you misinterpret things and write what you want as I simply cannot keep replying to clear things up.
The only reason I originally posted was because I couldn't bear to see the future generations misinterpreting bani and thinking that 'working hard and reaching the top' wasn't worth it. I very much from the bottom of my heart want every Sikh child and adult to be the best in their professional careers so that we can have a say in the system and be a voice. The Gurus wanted us to be integrated into society in this way. Even if there is one child who has read this and is focussing on their studies and making their Ghritsi jeevan successful alongside their Sikhi jeevan then I feel I have done my job. We often think its all about spirituality but the Miri and Piri must run in parallel and one must do both.
All the best everyone I hope you all become great Sikh Miri Piri Soldiers i.e. both spiritual and temporal people.
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If I have to write an essay that covers every single outcome and permutation in order to make a point, then I just haven't got the time for that. I attribute anyone who reads or replies to me to have enough about them to understand the gist of what I'm saying. Obviously, I assume too much in some instances.
My reply to another forummer that you've quoted above was within the spirit of the conversation being conducted at that time, whereby the conversation was about individuals or a smaller subsection of Punjabi society, as opposed to a more general view on the merits of education and how spirituality is often relegated to an afterthought or not at all in most situations..
If you had read my previous posts you'd also have read the following:
And:
How anyone can infer I'm anti-education and anti-progress from what I've said above is frankly baffling.
Plus I'd appreciate it you dialled down the hostility a few notches. I'm no Pavlovian test subject, y'know
In reply to this - the problem is that you are not consistent. You will write something for and then something against. Its like you sit on the fence and don't commit entirely and then depending on how the conversation tone is going - you will say either a for or an against view. Also the logic in your comments follows through only at a superficial level and most people don't realise this because you use too many 'flowery words' to give a sense of 'eloquency' but when I simplify your content into common words that people use in everyday speech you can start to see where the logic doesn't follow through.
I don't normally care but in this situation I didn't like that because there is a definite answer - every Sikh should strive to be the best in their Worldly jeevan and their Spiritual Jeevan. We have the freedom to choose that job but once we choose it then we have to be the best at it.
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Bhenji, i am sorry to say but you don't have quality or quantity. I really do try to do simran throughout my day. Yet, even a moorakh like me can remember this tuk:
guramath naam maeraa praan sakhaaee har keerath hamaree reharaas ||1|| rehaao ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam is my breath of life. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my life's occupation. ||1||Pause||
Your long wind post. Trying to make sense out of ideas which don't align with Gurbani was a waste of time. If you had taken the time out to focus on reading more Gurbani and actually remembering (quality) Gurbani, your mind would have not danced in maya trying to fight against Gurbani.
The key is to read every time with an open heart and say i am a worm who knows nothing as this rahao shabad starts off.
You tried to be a hero but you came out as zero........sikhs who chill with gurmukhs will get this joke.....lmao.
I want you to do better and achieve success with your sikhi rehat. There is nothing heroic about combining this. I have given numerous examples for people to understand. The Gurus were against people who spent their whole life in the jungle praying. The gurus advocated a gristi jeevan because he saw the need for Sikhs to be integrated into society.
Also I would encourage you to learn how to interpret bani properly. Bani is full of metaphors and alliterations and it has to be read in context. For instance -
scu Kwxw scu pYnxw tyk nwnk scu kIqu ]4]5]75]
sach khaanaa sach painanaa ttaek naanak sach keeth ||4||5||75||
Then, one's food is the True Name, one's garments are the True Name, and one's Support, O Nanak, is the True Name. ||4||5||75||
Based on your logic - if we interpreted the above tuk then you would say that we should not eat and we should not wear clothes because naam is everything.
I get the impression you don't know how to interpret bani. The Guru mentioned that this would happen too. Here is the tuk
pMifq vwcih poQIAw nw bUJih vIcwru ]
pa(n)ddith vaachehi pothheeaa naa boojhehi veechaar ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning.
Please take time to understand the real meaning behind bani. Any occupation where you work honestly, with integrity for sarbat da bhalla is a good profession. I have nothing to gain by asking you to push your worldly jeevan for the better. We have to be both Miri and Piri ie both strong spiritually and temporally (worldly). We cannot neglect one side for the other. I hope waheguru one day blesses you and the others who have not comprehended with understanding.
All the best.
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Please next time try to read what I said, or even attempt to read between the lines, and try not to attribute things I've not even alluded to in your haste to make your various arguments.
I did read everything you wrote on this topic and in various other topics too. My various points were not haste - they were thoughtful and the examples deliberate. I quoted you in the entirety. I do think you had flawed logic when you wrote your original point and I will not be retracting or apologising to you. You did attribute that you were anti-reaching the top. Here are your exact words.
Rarely are our people content with what we have, however little it may be. There's always the mad scramble to climb higher and obtain more. But I guess you could say the same for most groups of people, but I'm merely discussing this issue in the Sikh or Punjabi context.
In my opinion Sikhs do need to reach the top and I will be a strong advocater for that even if it offends you in the process. We need more Amritdhari Sikhs to work hard, study, get educated and be leaders in their different fields so that they can influence society for the better.
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Sikhs have watered down what kirt means. Its not kirt karo but DHARM di kirt karo. Nothing is higher than doing simran (reading, singing, listening, and contemplating over Gurbani).
Gurus said naam jaapo (simran etc), and kirt karo (earn your work honestly). The two are separate. Sikhs are not supposed to choose a job that allows them to do maximum bani. God does not count the amount of prayers you do! Meditation is about cleaning your soul and keeping your mind focussed on the truth because our soul gets polluted in the world and we start to hate people who have hurt us, see someone who got away with something and think we should do it too. Naam is like soap and water - it cleans your thoughts and allows you to function in the world in an ethical way because our thoughts dictate our actions. It is about the quality of your naam not the quantity. Similarly its not about how long you spend washing yourself in the shower its about the quality of the wash and whether you are clean after it. Some people jap naam all day and still their mind and actions are not clean - the guru has many stories on this!
The gurus wanted their Sikhs to be fully integrated in society and to be reaching the top of each and every profession. A sikh should aim to excel to the top because changes and influences mainly come from the top down. Anything that comes from bottom to top is called a revolution and when you compare the two there are not many revolutions compared to top down changes. Once at the top you can have influence over politics, economics etc and then you can use that position to help the world understand sikhs.
An example of where Sikhs not being at the top nearly caused dharmic problems is in France. Unfortunately in France there are not many Sikhs at the top therefore they considered proposing sikhs should remove turbans. In England we have Sikhs at the top such as Mota Singh QC who has educated others about who sikhs are. If sikhs do not educate themselves and do not aim to be leaders in their field then Sikhi will die. The Guru for this very reason rejected the idea that religious people were separate from normal people. Therefore he said it was wrong to live in the jungle and do bhagti all day. Other religions still separate 'religious' people from normal people e.g. buddhist monks, nuns who live in separate areas away from the world.
As a sikh we are all priests, monks, nuns etc living in the world and reaching the top so that we can make sure that the system does not become corrupt. This is our dharmic responsibility. Besides influencing you will notice other things happen when you reach the top - especially the power of being a role model. I will give you an example of why my friend at university decided to cut his beard and head hair. He decided he did not want to be a Sikh because there were no Sikh role models and that Sikh people did not reach the top or have a good quality of life (his parents were punjabi immigrants) etc. He had an argument with me saying this is a fact. I told him that his logic was flawed because most panjabi immigrants are poor compared to 'white' people who are already established. Also immigrants are new to the system and the reason the 'white' people seemed better was because they had access to different resources and that it would take time for the children of the sikh immigrants to get an education, reach the top in their profession.
Therefore the fact there was no Sikh person at that time did not mean that he should abandon Sikhi but that he should have instead been the first person to face the difficulties, break the barriers and be the role model that others could look up to. If there are more Sikhs at the top then it is by default that more people will be Sikh because someone else has helped make the system easier for them. It is similar to when the first batch of Sikh immigrants came to England and people cut their hair because they could not get employment, get school admission because a turban was 'not part of the school uniform' - there were various court cases that were rejected even at appeal in the high court it was decided that Sikhs were not following the rules and should remove turbans. Eventually this was overruled but it took a lot of struggle to make people understand that a Turban was not a 'hat'. It is only because of the struggle those people faced that today Sikhs can go to school wearing a turban, work with a turban. But without those people struggling none of us in England would be allowed to wear a turban, carry a kirpan. They did dharmic seva and in the current system its better to get yourself educated and reach the top of your profession because once you do that you have a voice and the connections to make change.
This society if all false. The society that we should be trying to contribute to is the society of saints. Everything in this world is false and the only true thing is naam. Why waste our time with educations that are false when we could be doing the only thing that is true which is naam? The answer is that we have to do kirt Kamai but do enough where a person is content with life.
Get smart by watching the news etc. Just cause a person has gone to university doesn't mean they are smart it just means they only know of their one small field.
This is true because life is nothing more than dust. But as explained above the Guru wanted his sikhs educated. At that time in India the Sikhs were uneducated, unskilled and the Guru set up classes in reading and writing. He taught horse riding, martial arts, craftsmanship. The guru himself was multi-linguistic being fluent in Farsi, Arabic and Hindi. The guru met many important people with powers of influence. It is your aim as a sikh to be at the top so that the world does not become corrupt and start doing things like believing in superior race (Germany - Nazi), not giving all religions equal respect (France) etc. We as Sikhs owe it to the world to be very well educated so that we can advocate and stand up for all of the human race. Sikhs are the only people in the world in my opinion that will stand up for the whole of the human race - currently each leader stands up for their bit. But as sikhs we have a fundamental belief that humanity is one and therefore we will truly be able to stand up for sarbat da bhalla as we see all as one. Watching the news is not going to give you an integrated position of influence to do this. But by being educated, going to university, working very very hard against the prejudices in your profession and then reaching the top of that profession will.
I don't wish to generalise at all, but from what I've observed about our people over the years, Punjabis value a person's worth mostly on what profession somebody works in and the resulting status that profession affords them. I wish I could say this attitude has shifted with the rise of the newer generations, but if anything, it's only become worse.
Rarely are our people content with what we have, however little it may be. There's always the mad scramble to climb higher and obtain more. But I guess you could say the same for most groups of people, but I'm merely discussing this issue in the Sikh or Punjabi context.
This reminds me of my friend saying Sikhs are not at the top so therefore I am going to cut my hair. People do things for different reasons. Someone goes to the gym to look hot and get girls. Someone else goes to the gym to because his job is to compete in professional bodybuilding, someone goes to loose weight, and someone goes to get muscles, and someone goes to be healthy. Reaching the top is not bad at all, just like going to the gym is not bad. People should have the correct motives but not everyone does. The important thing to note is that if you work hard to reach the top and you are corrupt then the system will become corrupt. If you work hard to reach the top and are not corrupt then the system will not become corrupt. Just because corrupt people are reaching the top you shouldn't say that you don't want to reach the top. In fact that should have the opposite effect and drive you more to reach the top because you are needed more at the top: to be the voice of non corruption, that will defend and help the system be fair.
I will give another example of this type of logic argument and why it is flawed. When I was very young, 'girl power' was the rage. We had Spice Girls and society was changing its opinions on male verses female roles. 'White' people were very aware that immigrant Sikh families had a traditional husband wife role set up where the wife cooked at home. 'White' people constantly tried to encourage us the new generation to not cook. A lot of my girl friends refused to learn to cook because they had the attitude that they were equal to the boys and if the boys don't cook why should they. Being a feminist I too was initially sucked into this attitude because no one likes to think they are being discriminated against or having their opportunities limited so like most teenagers this was a good reason to rebel. Eventually I sat down and reflected and realised that this was completely flawed logic. I realised that cooking is a vital skill and not learning to cook has nothing to do with equality at all!
Its like saying that person over there is not washing their hair and I am equal to them therefore I am not going to wash my hair. Or the classic panjabi one is if boys can drink then so can I - that one is like saying the boys are smoking weed and I am equal to them and therefore I will smoke weed too. I realised that you should never shun things that are actually good for you. The issue was not cooking as cooking is a vital skill for all humans. The issue actually was woman should be allowed to work just like men - and in England woman did have equal rights to work like men so it wasn't an equality issue like it had been made out to be. Then the next question was why are they not working - well because there was no child care that would raise your child with sikh beliefs. That was the actual reason why sikh women did not work long hours compared to the men. It then overall made more sense that the traditional man and woman role was adopted. They should have focussed on how do we give them appropriate childcare support so that they would be happy working and not scared that without them their children would not be Sikh. Instead it was made out like cooking was bad and that the issue was that these people believe a woman should only cook and do nothing else and therefore, lets tell the children that their culture is bad and that they shouldn't like their culture and learn to cook.
Similarly in this thread I see so much flawed logic - is the issue about being educated, having money, having influence or is the issue people at the top are corrupt. Just because some people develop ego and bad habits when they reach the top - it doesn't mean reaching the top is bad! When I reach the top I plan to use my position, influence, money to help all people in the world and do sarbat da bhalla and see it as my dharmic responsibility to achieve this.
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The answer is yes and no.
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Sikh boys have not been bought up in the culture that if they wear a turban and keep their own hair that they should marry a girl who keeps her bodily hair too. Sad but true thing if our time. Sikh boys are hypocritical.
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Gurdwara management is an area that the sangat has little knowledge about or even in my opinion wants to know or discuss. Its a shame really.
The gurdwara on Soho Road also known as 'The Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha (Birmingham)' collects millions of pounds in donations and charges for weddings, funerals (it has its own funeral facility) etc. It may not declare all its income but it declares 3 million pounds every year in sangat donations and it has 13 million pounds in investments. Click on the link to see this http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=508470&SubsidiaryNumber=0
I do agree however, is the sangat aware of what happens to their yearly 3 million pound donations?
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I do not understand this. Loving someone if they remove their hair is like saying you can never love them completely by who they are - it's you actually loving them less.No one is sikh unless one follows each and every Gurus orders and teachings... The main problem is that we all are hypocrites (being non amritdharies) ..we all want to eat mithaii but we are also showing our desire to eat only barfi ...thats what i wanted to tell you.. hope you got it..
If I was a boy and I was to guess - the reason sikh boys want a hairless girl is because media teaches them that pleasure comes in one form - pleasure actually has many forms!
Sikh boys need to realise that whoever they marry is going to get old, saggy and have days where they did not have time to remove their hair - what will you do then, are you suddenly going to love them less?
If we think about it - before razors and shavers were invented our ancestors were ok with hair - why do we have an issue?
In my opinion - most sikh boys have never had a relationship so how do they even know - other than what media has taught them. There is an experiment by Pavlov of how conditioning works and all this desire is about how we have been conditioned. You should google it because it is psychological.
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Mehtab you are in the 'wise' category.
Do you think the original poster veersingh87 has issues with sikh girls having hair? It would be interesting to hear what troubles the boys.
Sikhs need to start understanding why they have hair and why they keep it. If you are truly happy with being natural then you should never have issues with hair and you should be teaching others when you meet them about why you do what you do!
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I am no different bhene, mai vi budda ho gya haan LOL! :D
Old people are wiser and make great leaders.
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Hahahaha I doubt it, but I will let him know someone was asking about him :DSo you have a new nickname eh? :DAcha jee, don't be sorry, its alright. And it is true, our folks can be like that on several instances. But don't let that put you down
Thanks. It would be nice to know what's happened to everyone and where life has taken them.
It seems like all the people on the forum have changed apart from you! All these new kids have arrived but with the same issues. I feel like our community is not progressing if the youth complain about the same things. We have amazing teachings, know what the truth is but there must be a failing somewhere of application or education.
I am very happy with my life, how I live it and I am definitely not down about anything. However I wanted to mention the cultural attitude of hair keeping Singhs towards girls with hair.
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Mehtab paaji - we know each other from the old days of the forum - Is your friend Paapi still on here?Bhenji, much respect to you for being firm in your Sikhi even in the face of all adversities. Please forgive me for saying this, but have you ever paused for a second and thought that perhaps its this kind of attitude which gets you all the negative reaction from the Sikh guys? May be its not your hair after all, but this "I am much better than any of you losers" attitude? I apologize, I don't know you well and am not aware of whatever interactions you've had with others, but the simple fact of life is that giving respect is the simplest way of getting it back. Respect is earned, not demanded. For the 3rd time, I am sorry if this sounds blunt, but if you're going to meet people with the kind of attitude which unfortunately sounds pretty arrogant, I am not sure how much you could blame them for being the way they react. Sorry of this offends you, but please do think about it, and correct me wherever you may find me wrong.
I am sorry if it sounds that I have been saying this to people. I never have. However when Sikh people talk to me like I know nothing about the rest of the world it's something that crosses my mind.
ok. got ...now can you tell me Those who were not singhs ( who cut their hair and monas) what kind of girl they wanted to have?
TurbanGuys - in answer to your question: none were following sikhi properly. The bottom line is that a Singh wearing a turban and a beard shouldn't have a problem with marrying a girl who keeps her hair.
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so you are a complete keshdhari sikh I got .. Can I ask you a simple question? guess you see ten sikh guys in front of you. As you live in uk,Can you tell me how many sikh guys you see as keshadhari sikhs (complete)?... not talking about monas and trimmers wearing pugs...
I can name about 50 Singhs through my university experience who have turbans, beards (non trimmers) - despite being 'singh' they want a girl who shaves and removes hair.
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Are you amritdhari?
No. Why do you ask?
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Thanks. You still don't need to apologise. I am not upset about it but I do think it's important that we recognise that most Sikh boys with a turban and beard are not interested in a Sikh girl who keeps her hair. You would think that sikh boys would want someone who was into the same idea of naturalness as them but instead they have issues with girls having hair. I find this sad because out of all the people on the planet Sikhs are the ones that are taught about hair and so should know that hair is natural both on a man and a women.I was referring to how people treated you.
There are other things that bother me about Sikh boys - they treat a hair keeping Sikh girl with less respect. When I meet sikh turban wearing boys - there is an assumption that I don't know anything else about the world.
I am the most highly educated person you will meet on this planet - I attended the top school in the UK, and the top university in the UK, and have a top paying job. When I walk into a room I get treated inferiorly by Sikhs as there is a negative attitude within our own community Sikh boys towards hair keeping girls.
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I apologize for all the men who treated you that way. There can be hypocrites that dress-up like us.
You don't need to apologise. The truth is that all humans - men and women grow hair. Our hair starts growing more at a certain stage in our life to mark the change from child to adult. Hair used to be a sign of responsibility and believe it or not but our hair is our unique fingerprint. If you study your hair carefully it forms patterns but this pattern, just like your fingerprint, is not the same as anyone else's hair pattern. If you study history - hair became socially unacceptable around the time companies like Gillette were formed. Prior to this women had body hair and men kept beards freely. Advertising has strongly advocated hair to be dirty and the words like clean-shaven implies this. Factually, shaving causes more harm than good - cuts, infections, ingrown hairs and now with the rise of the adult entertainment industry - more parts of the body have became socially unacceptable to grow hair and, again, people are brainwashed into accepting this.
I am very content with my kesh. I wake up happy and I feel proud that I am one of the few people on this planet who is completely and totally happy to be in my natural human form. I cannot describe the freedom that I have. It is liberating to not have to conform to the false beliefs and practices of society by plucking, shaving, waxing, threading, bleaching. Hair should not be such a big issue because the fact is - all humans have it, hair is normal, why hate it and find it abnormal?
Most of us in the west pride ourselves on our autonomy, our independence, the ability to make up our own mind, to be free, to be able to make rational decisions based on evidence and fact. The fact is that all humans have hair yet humans find it abnormal to see another human with hair. Are we following fact, are we being rational, are we thinking independently when we decide hair is not normal.
I am very content with my natural human form - I feel lucky to have been exposed to the sikh concept of naturality because otherwise I would have never known the truth and I would have spent my whole life never truly accepting my body hair. Its great to know the truth and to be able to embrace it.
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I have the opposite problem. I am a sikh girl who does not remove kesh anywhere - no eyebrow, arms, legs and I cannot find a sikh boy who will accept that. All the sikh turban boys with beards want a girl who shaves.
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Thank you - this explains why i received emails letting me know that people were liking a post I made years ago. I had to log in after many years to check what was going in!
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Having an army to fight people will not get rid of injustice. What we need are sikhs with good values and attitudes to be in positions of power. This means in the current system that every sikh should get the best education, get the best jobs and work towards positions of influence.
Along the way sikhs should educate those whom they meet on what it means to be a sikh. As a sikh we look out for all of human kind. This is exemplified in a a sakhi where one of the Guru's was presented with two pots and asked to place a hand over the pot to indicate whose side he was on. One was a pot for sikhs and the other for muslims. He put his hands on both because he was on the side of truth and justice.
In my opinion for sikhs to see the change that they want - they need to work to get into leadership roles in politics, finance etc.
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I need help in this department too. I only have two requirements
1. Must be a Singh who keeps all their kesh and beard, no meat and no smoking or drinking.
2. Must be educated to a similar level as me - I am a UK doctor.
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However, my question was:
why should one be religious if when creation ceases (IE, Janam maran, the world, the universe doesn't exist...) everything will either be destroyed or be absorbed back into nothingness/or the almighty.
This is my main question, the rest of the post is some of the offspun thoughts of my mind which arise from this central question
This is like asking- whats the point in living when we are going to die anyway so why do we bother with working, eating sleeping when none of it counts? The answer to this and your question put bluntly is that we have no choice. We have to live, we have to do good otherwise we are going to be going around in circles as energy keeps getting converted from one form to another.
Now your probably thinking yeah but all the souls become one big pool and yes its true that the world is destroyed. But its also re-created again. The process of that is not understood but once you are destroyed its not the end...the cycle still repeats itself as the world is re-created and that pool is sent to earth again....but there is an escape which does not involve this destroy world and re-create world.
So in this state of complete freeness you are not sent to live earth....now to free yourself completely you have to become a certain type of energy. Actually, I think its best if we imagine ourselves as energy. So in this life we are an energy. Energy is constantly changing. Some types of energy are destructive (lightening) whilst others are productive (heat). The next time you meet someone think what type of energy they are.
With Humans our thoughts, intentions, words and actions amongst other factors make us a certain type of energy and there is a level which is reached where the energy is able to escape completely. So the aim is to make yourself as good as that makes you a better energy type and even if you don't escape completely your still close enough to being free.
Its difficult for me to describe this fully but imagine if your thief who just cares about yourself. You become amazingly rich through exploitation. The world admires you but when you sleep in the night the subconsious reflects your true energy and it is this energy level which decides what happens next so there is no 'i will talk' my way out of it or one religion is better than another. Its all just down to you.
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Ok thanks.
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Which Is A Better Job For A Spiritual Lifestyle?
in WHAT'S HAPPENING?
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Ok so conclusion time :angeljump: Which jobs are best = all jobs where you can do sarbat da bhalla.
In reality what you end up doing actually depends on your life experiences, opportunities, finances, resources, skills, education, etc but you must strive always to push yourself to be the best and to be a leading figure in your field. Once you are at the top you will then have the ability to be a voice of influence in the system.