geo

Sikhism says that God cannot be realized by reading the Hindu scriptures or the books of the Abrahamic religions (Bible, Koran, Torah). It's a difference of opinion.

Why do birds fly and fish swim? That's what they do. People believe different things.

There are different schools of thought. People don't agree on everything. What's your point?

i dont think that if a fish "believed" in flying it would suddenly become a bird and be able to fly. i dont understand the validity of your point. people believe different things - yes of course. the questions i am asking are: what do you think/believe about their beliefs. that is where things get interesting.please see my post with the 1 and 2 options written toward the bottom.

thanks

Not sure what you're trying to get at sir. Are you implying that just because we have these today, therefore we don't need religion or God? With all due respect and compassion, you had no explanation as to howcome Bhagats (who never went to school) had that level of wisdom, besides just saying "No scientific knowledge was imparted by bhagats in the gurbani".

Again, what are you trying to get at? Is the conclusion of your debate "Science is better than religion", or "Now we have science to lets get rid of religion"? I am trying to be compassionate in responding as per Sangat's hukam, so please bear with me and disclose your conclusion. Its been 13 pages and we're nowhere close to understanding your sole purpose of putting forth your question.

With all due respect and compassion, I guess thats why each time someone responds you come up with a new question?

Thanks for clarifying, point noted.

By that logic we should stop making and selling knives as well? They are used to kill people! On the same note, they are also used to cut vegetables, to perform life-saving surgeries too. You should watch the movie called Parzania which is about Gujarat carnage. An American character in the movie says "I couldn't believe that religion which was the cause of so much bloodshed would also turn out to be the solution". It all depends on the way you want to have religion in your life. You can kill in the name of religion,you can also save a life. It all comes down to YOU. Can't really blame a faith if the followers don't get the point.

Sir that is solely your own personal assumption. You're free to have it but I am compassionately afraid that its not true. No one is Dharamraj to decide who gets to God. Is your beef with those who say "my way or the highway" ?

For Sikhs yes. Sorry but where have you seen Sikh preachers going around saying all non-Sikhs will go to hell? And by hell here I mean the Semitic version of hell, i.e. eternal damnation.

Our honest view with a compassionate smile is that good luck to them. We don't wish any ill upon any of them.

I am not sure which religion "allows" people to smoke or drink wine. I guess it just doesn't prohibit it, doesn't mean it allows them. Meat and cutting hair is a different story though. Christianity possibly does have the wine concept (not sure)?

Look, and I am saying this very compassionately, if you have a problem with the beliefs of Christians and Muslims, please go to their forum and challenge them for looking upto Jesus and Muhammad as the sole messengers of God. Please do not make us badmouth them. For us Guru Sahib is the topmost personality.

im not trying to make you badmouth anyone. all i want to know is: why are there contradictory ways of achieving unity with god? drinking wine is specifically allowed in christianity, the red wine represents the blood of christ (when it has been blessed). so clearly christians are allowed by god to eat meat, drink wine, not prohibited from smoking, cut their hair and still achieve their goal of getting to heaven and union with jesus/god.

muslims are specifically told to slaughter meat in the halal method and still get to heaven to have unity with allah and mohammed.

sikhism (i believe) bans eating of meat unless you are starving, but at the very least it specifically bans eating halal meat or ritual slaughter meat and no wine is allowed, no cutting of hair.

now only one of the following is true:

1. people are allowed to have contradictory methods/paths to god/heaven

2. there is only one path to god/heaven and the others are wrong.

christianity is quite clear on this - they say the only path to god/heaven is through their lord jesus christ.

i dont know the muslim view on this but i would lean quite heavily toward "islam and mohammed and the koran is the only way"

from what i can tell from some posts above, the sikh position seems to be "we believe the gurbani is the way to god and we wish other people well in their choices, they may or may not get to achieve unity with god/heaven - we dont know, its gods decision to make"

now for sikhs only one of the following is true:

1. god is only letting good/deserving sikhs into heaven

2. god is letting in deserving meat eaters, wine drinkers, halal slaughterers, smokers, hair cut people, non turban wearers as well as deserving sikhs

thanks

You should just choose to say that you don't know. There is no harm in accepting that. To arrive at a conclusion that Bhagats didn't impart knowledge in Gurbani you'd have to read and also understand entire Gurbani, which you clearly haven't done, so that comment doesn't count. I could say that rockets are fired by using Diwali fire crackers and refuse to read any book on rocket science. Doesn't make my comment worthy of any recognition, so likewise. Did you even bother to read the book I posted for you?

Ok I get it now. You have a problem with the fact that why isn't there just one religion, because science is tired of trying to disprove all of them as there are so many. Well thats how it is my friend. All human beings are not of one type. We are all different in the way Akaal Purakh Vaheguru created us. Or maybe you are wondering which faith is the best one. Well in case you still didn't notice, this is a Sikh forum, so I'll let you figure out which faith all of us will unanimously vote for.

We still don't know if you're a Sikh questioning Gurbani or a non-Sikh questioning Sikhi. You know all about us but we don't know anything about you. We don't even know the root of your questions, what makes/made you question God, why you question Sikhi/Gurbani etc. Please let us know so we can give better answers.

i dont have a problem with multiple religions because science is tired of trying to disprove them as there are so many. you say that we are all different and we are all created by one supreme being. why then are there contradictory methods to worshipping that supreme being and different routes to obtaining unity with that supreme being?

for the record i am not religious so i cannot say to you i am muslim/christian/sikh/hindu. i am born in the UK and my family is from punjab.

it will take me a bit of time to read through all the posts so i will respond section by section.

thanks

i will respond to you posts more fully but at the moment i would like to point out that it has not been 13 or 14 pages for me, i did not start the topic. i just jumped in with my questions about 3 pages ago.

thanks

Please don't put words in my mouth. I used to be an atheist and I still love science and its sad people automatically assume religion and science can't coexist.

Knowledge can be used for great good, but can be abused by big businesses and cause many poor to go without health care or food. Same with religion over time the original message of recognizing God and living with divine love has been hijacked by churches and preachers and turned it into somethin the original prophets didn't want.

Here's a big Q to you. Is nitrogen fixation that allows us to make fertilizer good or bad? It's a very deep question. Preferably I'd like you to you think about it and not as much as give me a reply.

It would be wrong to say many people aren't suffering even if we have the power to bring good.

the ability to make fertiliser is definitely good. any skill or talent or any new invention is good, even the atom bomb and the gun. i am anti war but inventions all have their place. it is true that their are problems and side effects with some inventions but that just means there is something new required to be invented or some new problem to solve. the problems of the world are generally caused by people not by inventions or science. if people were more charitable and less blood thirsty or greedy then we have enough to go around for everyone.

Most people used to think the world was flat. What's your point?

Sikhism is only a few hundred years old. So what if you have more followers? Big wup.

Sikhism says that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu, as all religions teach us to treat each other with respect at their core.

We respect all people of all religions to worship as they please, unlike some religions who believe their prophet is the only one that should be followed.

As Sikhs we believe that the path laid out by our Gurus is the best way to realize God in this life. That's why we are Sikhs.

i dont have any followers. and age of the religion is not the issue. what i am asking is gurbani or sikhism the only path to truth and god. some people say yes but i think you are saying no, there are other paths. is that correct?

therefor my next question is: why is it allowed for some people to smoke, eat meat, drink wine, cut their hair and still acheive unity with god/reach heaven but other people are not allowed to do some or all of these things?

why are people of some religions told in their holy book that only jesus is the way or only mohammed is the way?

either they are following the wrong path or different people have been allowed to follow different paths to reach god?

thanks

I like your viewpoint, I prefer people, who say when they dont know i dont know, i guess where im going with this point is people, profess knowledge they dont have, whether it be the god claim, or some other spiritual claim, which is argued by feeling rather than empirical evidence.

Sikhism is not a religion based on Faith.. It’s based on things which can be falsified, so anyone that argues on merit of faith doesn’t know a thing about Sikhism

And the conversation between the professor and student is cringe worthy

Thats right there is no other way to God than through Sat Guru, its also layed-out within Gurbani where people without Sat Guru go after there life ends

dont you find it strange that only a tiny minority of people have a shot to get to god?

obviously people can convert but lets get real, that is not happening in any great numbers. there are billions of people who beleive they are on the right path but they are all wrong because sikhism is the only way?

im sure you know that as deeply as you hold this belief, there are christians out there who deeply believe that the only way to heaven/god is through jesus?

and there are muslims out there who say the only way is through the prophet mohammed and the koran?

do you really think they are all wrong and only sikhs are correct? i just want to know your honest views.

Knowledge and material alone don't fill the void in everyone's hearts nor do they answer questions about the meaning of life nor did it help end global warming, exponential population growth and depletion of natural resources let alone end world hunger.

you are right, knowledge isnt for everyone. some people dont have the storage facilities and it ends up going to waste like too much milk for someone who doesnt have a fridge. I also agree that knowledge and science has not solved global warming, exponential population growth or depletion of natural resources or ended world hunger (although it has helped feed billions)

as far as i can see religion has not solved any of these problems either, caused or made them worse? - yes.

For geo paji

im not going to argue about the existence of god or not. people have their own beliefs on that matter and no amount or forum talk will persaude them to change their beliefs from one side to another.

my questions are more to do with religion and the beliefs and ideas of people. i have always been fascinated with what people think and their viewpoints. i like to listen to all views wether i agree with them or not, i find it very interesting. i also like to ask questions to clarify what they are saying but i dont mean to cause any offence.

No one else in my family is Sikh. I don't say it was my personal choice, I'd say He saved me. So now you know where I am coming from. Yes, Sikhi is the only way for me. If someone else chooses another path, hey, its cool with me, whatever rocks their boat. Regarding a good Christian/Muslim, here is what I've heard from other Gursikhs. They believe that the soul gets what it yearns for. So by that logic, a good Muslim/Christian would aspire for heaven and thats the max they'd get. Gurbani takes the soul to the topmost levels of Sachkhand, so thats where Sikhs go. Hang on, these are views I heard/read from other Gursikhs. My views I've already told you. As a Sikh we stay in bhaana, so what happens after death is also included. By the way sir, don't bother yourself what a random person like me believes.

You still haven't answered my question regarding the scientific knowledge in Gurbani that was imparted by those Bhagats who most likely never went to school. How would science explain that?

i didnt know you had asked a question about the scientific knowledge imparted by bhagats who most likely never went to school. i dont know how science would explain it but i would explain it this way:

No scientific knowledge was imparted by bhagats in the gurbani. nothing amazing was ever invented in those days, no electricity, no aeroplanes, no cars, no computers, no internet, no radio, no tv, no penicillin, no cure for cancer, no vaccines, no gps.

the scientific knowledge imparted and inventions in the 20th century have been far greater than all other centuries combined and what is significant about the timing of this explosion in scientific knowledge and invenstion? no new major religions formed.

thanks

Who am I to answer as to who is going where? Sir I am not Dharamraj, I don't know where I am going, how do I say it about someone else? Please ask Gurbani this question. We Sikhs follow Gurbani not out of greed for afterlife benefits. We follow it because we are in love with it.

By the way, I was just wondering.......

poochhte hain aaj woh hum se, bataao Khuda hai bhi ya nahi

Khuda ka poochhne waale, bataa de kahi tu hee Khuda toh nahi? :)

imtihaan tumhaare bade rangeele, par shikkva humein koi nahi

tum saamne aake sawaal poochh gaye, aur humein khabar bhi nahi! :)

of course you cant say who will get there or not and you dont know what will happen with you. but you do believe sikhism is the way for you? do you believe it is the way for anyone else? eg your family, friends, other sikhs? further to that i am asking if you believe it is possible for a good christian or good muslim to get there? clearly you cannot say yes or no for sure, im just wondering what you believe on that subject? and anyone else who wishes to contribute i would be happy to hear your views.

i didnt understand the bit you wrote in punjabi, something about asking i think but i dont understand the rest.

thanks

Thats exactly what Gurbani is saying, there is no other way to Defeat Kaal, Punj choor and Merg our souls back with Vaheguru.

Bin sathigur kinai n paaeiou kar vaekhahu man veechaar |

Without the True Guru, no one has found Him; reflect upon this in your mind and see.

Heres the full shabad

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=112

just to clarify: this is the post i was responding to. it does appear to say that gurbani is the only path to truth and god. at least that is the way that i understood it. anyone agree or disagree?

thanks

1. I din't say anything about Gurbani being the only way, although on a personal level as a Sikh I have 100% conviction that for me Gurbani is the one and only sole path. Others are encouraged to abide by this path as well, but if they choose not to, Guru Sahib bless them wherever they are. Besides that I only pointed out the futility to try and compare science with Gurbani.
2. In my opinion its not a number game, so not sure why the statistics of other faiths have been highlighted.
3. I have not put anyone down, so again not sure where is the arrogance?

my response was not to your post it was to the previous poster who did say that gurbani is the only way.

i am not comparing science with religion - i think the gulf is too big to bridge and pointless.

what i am interested in is your view points on various matters, the first being various numbers of religions past and present and the vast differences in the numbers of adherents of those religions.

is it your position that a good christian or good muslim can "get there"? ( i say get there because i dont know what religious people are trying to achieve?) would it be correct if i used the term "reach unity with god"?

thanks

The problem is that you guys are trying to analyze Gurbani as if it was text book knowledge of science. If you don't have faith in Gurbani, that is one thing. We don't care, we are not bothered, we won't sue you. But please don't try to disprove Gurbani using science, especially on a Sikh forum. Science may or may not be consistent. All the laws proven by science are subject to analysis, subject to change, and can be proved wrong. A Sikh is one who has unquestionable and undeterred faith in Gurbani. That doesn't mean that we don't study Gurbani, of course we do! But a true Sikh always remembers that its NOT Gurbani that has to be consistent with science, sorry, its the other way around, its science that needs to prove itself to be consistent with Gurbani.

Let me ask you guys. All these scientists you talk about, who are they? They are normal human beings who read and studied books written by other normal human beings. They carried out various tests, conducted various experiments, spent their whole lives in extensive researches and came to a number of conclusions about several aspects of science. Fair enough, well done! We are today very grateful to them for making efforts in order to better our lives, no doubt.

Now look at Gurbani. Many of those Bhagats who stated a number of facts of nature in Gurbani were actually illiterate, possibly couldn't even read or write. What is your take on that? Would you call such people normal? Would you call Their words normal? They did not read tons of scientific books, did not carry out any tests or conduct any experiments. They did not perform any extensive researches to arrive at any conclusion either. Guru Sahib Himself said there are galaxies upon galaxies and He had no telescope. So how do you dispute or question Their words?

Here is a gist of what I could gather from Dr. Udhoke's video on Sikhi vs science

These are just minor translations done by certain hardworking individuals as a devoted effort to assist the masses in understanding the interpretations of Gurbani. However, at times they do not do complete justice to the gems and priceless secrets of knowledge that Gurbani contains. A lot of further extensive study and research needs to be done, and what I have presented here is only the tip of the iceberg. I came across several other references towards scientific facts that the Guru Sahibaan blessed us with centuries ago and which science is discovering only today. Indeed, Sikhi doesn't need to be consistent with science, but in fact science today is attempting to be in accordance with Gurbani.

Its very easy in today's free world to write as many books on science and philosophy as one pleases. Its a pastime and even fashion to question faith under the garb of logical/rational thinking. Gurbani is priceless because it was recited and written at the risk of losing one's life, and Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Jee Maharaj is the prime example. Please let us know how many scientists in present times have been punished, tortured, tormented or sentenced for proposing theories that go against a particular religion, how many have been killed the way Guru Sahib attained Shaheedi?

You can read this book regarding science and Sikhi. I have skimmed through a bit and liked it:

http://www.sikhs.wellington.net.nz/Sikh_Religion.pdf

I would like to end this post with the following funny incident...

Science lovers, this may not be true, but some folks believe this student was none other than one of your shining heroes Einstein!

I am not asking anyone to have blind faith. Gurbani is against it. But I am interested to know, our friends who question the eternal prevalence of Akaal Purakh Vaheguru on a Sikh forum, how much knowledge of Gurbani they have to begin with? I am curious, because I don't. I just find myself unable to question the words of my Guru. If you guys are Sikhs, please study Gurbani first, and indepth. If not, then what is your purpose behind questioning God's existence on a Sikh forum?

the professor student thing is brought up again and again. its an urban myth, does anyone have any proof it actually took place? it is using a classic technique whereby the position that you want to discredit makes silly and pointless statements and the position that you wish to uphold has the sensible response. it is classic debating practice.

ok in reply to the above I would like to ask what is the hope to reach god for:

one billion muslims who believe that mohammed and the koran are the path to god

1.5 billion christians who believe jesus and the bible are the path to god

1 billion hindus who believe ??? i dont really know what they believe but it isnt gurbani

20 million jews who believe the torah is the path to god

the number of jews is similar to the number of sikhs worldwide

do you believe that only those 20 - 25 million sikhs have access to the correct path to god?

and how many of them are true believers or adherents ie. pure mind, good deeds, 5Ks, meditation, prayer, hard work?

seems like a very small number to me and most of them located in one small area in a huge country on a huge continent in a huge earth.

doesnt that seem a little arrogant? doesnt it seem very selective/arbitrary?

i have heard other views a long the lines of true believers and good people, whether christian/hindu/muslim/sikh, have the chance to find god and reach their spiritual goal (whatever that maybe) anyone share these views or do most members believe sikhism is the only way?

thanks

I didnt mean you, only that other people were being dismissive and negative

I want to stay on what you said about the proposition being a "IF" and not something we can’t possibly prove, according to your belief

Let’s say for example, I said to you that I had a cure to cancer only IF you would follow the medical treatment, the logical thing would be to ask a few detailed questions,

is the person im speaking to a Medical Doctor, i.e does he have the credentials to make a claim on this subject, does he work for a reputable cancer treatment facilities, let’s say you do all the checks and everything checks out, he has a medical degree works for a reputable cancer research facility and is sponsored by a Government department, knowing these things you can make a more informed judgement, right?

Now let’s say this is how “you” rationalise, what I have propositioned not to you but anyone reading is that Gurbani states how one can reveals the existence of the creator is only by following there teachings. Gurbani isn’t asking for alot of time to prove these claims, only that you follow them 100% for a while let’s say 6 months, it was alot sooner for me weeks actually when I realised that everything Gurbani said was true and that God was true.

To those who say they don’t need to prove that God is real because its written within Gurbani, you are missing the point 100% Gurbani is 1, information on Vaheguru and how to find Vaheguru again, so just believing you have done nothing really other than just believe, where is your life have you given up lust anger greed, back chatting Ego, what part of Gurbani have we been able to say yes im at this stage thanks to Gurbani, or are we just riding each and every day with the most important discovery to be Given to Man Kind. Richard Dawkins once said, if it was to be true that God was real. It would mean, that everything we know to this point is Totally wrong, forget everything you know because we really don’t know anything, this is what you call intellectual honesty, someone who has spent 40 years of his life on understanding and teaching evolution at Oxford University to say God being true has no equal in terms of truth in the universe.

So again, how science and rational mind works is to take claims and try disprove them, we should be humble and concede that we may not know everything, and that there is someone i.e Gur Bani that knows.

is your position that gurbani is the way to truth and god? is it the only way? that question is open to anyone who has a view on it.

A scientific "theory" does not mean "theory" in the common usage of the word. many words have a different meaning when used in a different context.

for example "intelligence" means the ability to aquire and apply knowledge and skils along with reasoning and problem solving but military and government departments refer to intelligence meaning knowledge and information gathered by spying/interrogation.

scientific theories like the theory of relativity and the theory of evolution are fact based on evidence and experiments.

this is all good news, however the meeting with all persons involved should be peacefull and respectful. violence is not the answer and everybody involved should adhere to this.

thanks

http://www.irvineherald.co.uk/ayrshire-news/local-news-ayrshire/local-news-irvine/2011/01/07/irvine-sikhs-make-scottish-history-75485-27932554/

check out the above link, it was forwarded to me by a friend.

it was my understanding that sikhi didnt have "ministers" and as male and female are equal anyway it shouldnt matter one way or the other who is reading from sri guru granth sahib ji.

also i noted with dissapointment the chairman stating he was "proud" of the fact that his organisation was the first in scotland (something which i highly doubt anyway) doesnt he know that pride/ego is one of the panj vikar along with kam, krodh, lobh, moh.

anyone who want to contact this man to offer some friendly guidance PM me and i will try to get a contact number.

what hope is there when people as ignorant as this are in charge of something?

i couldnt answer your poll because none of the choices apply to me so i will give my answer here. you should modify the answers so everyone can answer.

i generally use singh as my last name. i dont believe in the caste system. since coming to the uk in the 80's my parents always used singh as last name as did everyone who was in our community nearby. i dont know why but thats the way it always was. so i have always used singh. my close friends know my last last name, i am not proud of it nor am i ashamed of it - it is just a name. i dont use it now because of negative connotations because of recent wars.

i am born into a jatt family but that has no good or bad meaning for me and i do not think myself higher or lower than any other caste or person or religion or colour.

it is time to get rid of caste and racism and sexism and homophobia and all other prejudices.

think hard - do any of you have any prejudices? then when you get rid of them you will be on the first step to getting rid of the caste prejudices.

its all about the numbers, christianity and islam and hinduism have a billion followers/member each sikhs are less than 25 million mostly located in punjab.

incidently, given that every religion believes that theirs is the true path to salvation/one-ness with god, do sikhs generally believe that out of the whole population of the earth only 25 million are following the true path to god and no one else will make it? i assume that they also believe that not all of the 25 million sikhs will make it, after all so many cut their hair/drink/eat meat/steal/have lust/greed/pride/dont wear kara/are promiscious?

it would be interesting to hear your views on this, i am a numbers kind of guy and ive always been facinated by the maths

i did some reading on this point and my understanding is that as long as someone truly believes in one true god then they are one the right path, that seems to be quite nice compared to some views like "ours is the only path!"

it does however throw up some other questions:

1. hindus believe in lots of god/godesses so are they damned?

2. christians/muslims/jews eat meat/drink/smoke/dont wear turban.cut their hair so how comesikhs have to follow all the rules? is it like a fast track way to heaven/god?

http://www.adherents.../adh_influ.html

Guru Nanak has not been included in the top 100! Why do you think this is?

its all about the numbers, christianity and islam and hinduism have a billion followers/member each sikhs are less than 25 million mostly located in punjab.

incidently, given that every religion believes that theirs is the true path to salvation/one-ness with god, do sikhs generally believe that out of the whole population of the earth only 25 million are following the true path to god and no one else will make it? i assume that they also believe that not all of the 25 million sikhs will make it, after all so many cut their hair/drink/eat meat/steal/have lust/greed/pride/dont wear kara/are promiscious?

it would be interesting to hear your views on this, i am a numbers kind of guy and ive always been facinated by the maths

drinking and drug taking are totally different, whoever died of a facial hair removal overdose?

facial hair is a serious affliction for a female. if she had a growth on her body and got that removed, would that be a problem?

clearly this woman has a lot of other serious issues that need to be dealt with rather than us discussing her facial hair, she had her own daughter killed and you guys are talking about her removing her moustache!

ive noticed something over the years which has changed since i was young and i wondered if anyone else feels the same:

when i was younger most boys got their hair cut but girls very rarely at least until much older.

now it seems to be nearly all girls get their hair cut from a young age even when their brothers keep their hair uncut.

i believe it is each individuals choice tocut or nto cut their hair but i find it very very strange that parents take their girls to get hair cuts but force boys to keep their hair, i am talking from what i see in my friends and family.

what do you all think?

anyone have any facts or figures on how many sikhs keep the hair uncut?

i think the numbers are probably declining but it would be good to hear the exact numbers or statistics

thanks

im not saying i agree with it but some people think so. i personally think not

so if garlic is kaam, does that mean it is not allowed anywhere? home cooking included?

that would be religious extremism without doubt

it goes to show how different old beliefs can be when compared to the modern way of thinking - garlic/garlic breath ( although people love the taste ) is thought of as a major turn off.