Sukhdeep Singhh

Vir ji, I am not saying techniques are wrong. Gurbani itself contains more than one technique for doing simran, which proves that the swas swas technique is not the only one. Mahapurkhs give the seeker a jugti that is best for the seeker at whatever stage s/he is at. In Naam Dhrir, the punj give a technique, usually same one for all b/c these days those who do seva in punj don't usually have avastha to see inside jaigiasoo, to see what method is best for them. Different techniques are best for different stage. That being said, any technique will get you there in the end, some slower, some faster. I know people who have reached the stage mentioned in the shabad posted wihtout Naam Dhrir.

There is no Gurbani, nor any purataan dharmic granth, nor any rahit, nor any seena baseena rahit that states Mahapurkhs are not allowed to give jugti for simran. ALL sampradas (groups with deep historical roots) in the panth accept that Mahapurkhs can give jugti for doing simran. I am aware of none that accept naam dhrir as taught these days as being THE authentic and purataan method.

Bhul chuk maaf for any offence.

btw,

Elements of your argument do not address my post, and are in fact attacking a fake argument that you have created and are pretending is my argument.

If you continue to assert that " Mahapurukhs" have more special privelledge of giving Naam over Panj Pyaarey then thats your choice. If that is the case why isnt a special Mahapurkh invited in every Amrit Sanchar to give Gurmantar.Why Need Panj Payaarey to give Gurmantar if MahaPurush can do it. Can Babey give Amrit too?

ALso, could you please provide Gurbani Tuk which states didfferent methods of Naam Simran,especially those taught by Mahapurukhs. Or could you provide any rehatname that states Naam can be given by " Mahapurkhs". I guess in the video below that Baba is giving Naam.

http://www.panthic.org/news/0/ARTICLE/5107

Is this the type of methods you are talking about?

My Inspiration: October Smaagam, 1953

By Pr. Gurmukh Singh in Soora, March 1992

In the Ardaas, there are many deep and meaningful concepts, and if our consciousness focuses on them, a lot of bliss can be achieved.

For the first time, in October 1953 at Dussehra, I along with Col. Piara Singh jee went to Delhi for the annual Akhand Keertan Smaagam. The Sangat that was attending the smaagam, including Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee, were staying at the home of Daar jee Bhai Darshan Singh jee (Food Commissioner).

At Amrit Vela, around 1:30AM or 2, the sounds of Singhs doing Ishnaan and Nitnem began to be heard. This was all a wonder to me. By 4AM, all the Sangat had taken their morning meal and were leaving for Sree Sees Ganj Sahib. Bhai Sahib at that point would do keertan for four or five hours and still not feel any fatigue. This was despite the fact that his age was 74. Bhai Darshan Singh jee Dilrubaa, Bh. Mehar Singh, Bh. Harminder Singh; Sindhan Bibi Meeraa(n), etc. are some of the keertanees I remember. Bhai Sahib's poster used to lovingly record all the names of the Jathas:

"Bibi Mahinder Kaur's genuine Jatha, Col Piara Singh jee's amazing keertan, etc."

Those Singhs who met Col. Piara Singh, would embrace him and then for so long would keep doing abhyaas. When they would say Fateh, their eyes would be filled with tears. This was the first time I had seen Puraatan Singhs meet in this way with loving embraces and teary eyes. I was amazed and knew that this way of meeting was good, but I couldn't understand why everyone who met Col Piara Singh began to cry or get vairaag?

I understood later, after a long time when I myself would feel this vairaag. Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee had such a magnetic personality that all the Singhs around him who were in the keertan akhaaRaa also got this magnetism. I shouldn't stray from the topic at hand though.

In 1961 I was in Dhooree. I had the sevaa of holding a Sree Akhand Paath Sahib and Ran Sabaaiee. Veer Dr. Surinder Singh jee was our guide for this. He himself did a lot of sevaa and guided us on how to do sevaa as well. Countless Sangat had arrived form Ludhiana and Ambala.

When Bh. Harcharan Singh jee from Ambala Cantt. arrived the night of the RaN Sabaaiee, he met Veer Surinder Singh in an embrace. I don't know what happened, but Veer Surinder Singh lost all consciousness in that hug. Until the next morning, he just lay in the keertan hall, off to one side. When the Ardaas began the next morning, he himself got up. From this aside, I want to say that Singhs who met in such loving naam hugs got so much out of it. But naam hugs are now lost. From these embraces we find out that those Singhs were after what we do ardaas for every day "ਸੇਈ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮੇਲ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਿਲਿਆਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮ ਚਿੱਤ ਆਵੇ "

My next point will about keertan. I used to see Ragi Singhs doing keertan. They used to put a lot of effort into playing their instruments and on the alaaps to show their knowledge of raag. They used to be very protective of their throats. After all, they called themselves 'artists'. But those who are divinely inspired to sing keertan, they follow the instructions "Thaakur gaaieeai aatam rang." They don't care about their throats and no concern about showing off any art. Their consciousness is always immersed in divine colours. For many many hours, at the highest notes, they sing keertan and it gives their consciousness even more speed. They take food for their souls from the keertan.

" ਅਖੰਡਕੀਰਤਨੁਤਿਨਿਭੋਜਨੁਚੂਰਾ ॥ ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਜਿਸੁਸਤਿਗੁਰੁਪੂਰਾ ॥੮॥੨॥ " (p. 236)

Most regular ragis stay hungry from this food.

But I was talking about the 1953 October Smaagam. Bhai Sahib was doing keertan in the Tilak Nagar Gurdwara Sahib and Chanee jee was playing tabla. All the other companions were around Bhai Sahib and were singing the shabad

" ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆਬੈਰਾਗੀਜੋਗੀਘਟਿਘਟਿਕਿੰਗੁਰੀਵਾਈ ॥੯॥ " (907).

Bhai Sahib was enjoying the nectar and echoing, "ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆ.....ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆ..... ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆਬੈਰਾਗੀਜੋਗੀ "

In one instant, Bhai Sahib in a high pitch sang " ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆ " and then his consciousness was attuned. Other Singhs must have seen this before but this was my first time seeing such an amazing thing, that someone could be totally immersed and lost in keertan. Bhai Sahib stopped playing the vaja and the tabla also stopped. The bells also stopped. The Singhs began to quietly do naam abhyaas. For some time, everything was silent. Then Bhai Sahib came back and picked up the same line and began again "ਮੋਹਿਗਇਆਬੈਰਾਗੀਜੋਗੀ"

Once again the hall began to echo. These days, things like this no longer happen in keertans and rarely do we see the soul immersed into the shabad. Now, Keertanees finish their time and get up with their companions from the stage. But before, this never happened. All keertanees sat together and would never grow tired of enjoying keertan. They didn't even have the desire to go outside. It was because of this that the keertans were in such high spirits and immersed in naam. If only those experiences could be had again!

In 1953, I was completely ignorant, but the above incident made a deep impression on me. This incident inspired me to receive amrit at this Smaagam.

from www.tapoban.org

wjkk wjkf

I had taken amrit but then i had a girlfriend. she touched me in places. But then it ended. my nitnem has been all ova the place. I do it but not properly. Do i need to go to pesh???

Certainly you should go for Pesh if you want to re-build your Sikhi.

waheguru

virji i am agree with you ji but the stage u talkin about is way too far. the techniques u talkin abt is helpful on certain stages. no one can jus start doin simran straight way in particular technique. it has nothing to do with when one is not even reaches at first stage as bhai sahib explained in his buk. so people talkin about there own experieces lol they nt gona understand wat these techniques are until they reach at certain stage.. and jio the stage u talkin about is stage when individuals rom rom simran is started and one is drinkin amrit athai pehar. and when one reach at certain stage one feels it. par jio guru ji himslef helps at these stages... luk ji bhagats wrote wat they saw .. wat they feel physically.. no one was there to help em that time so ji we dont need any middleman... don jus confuse abt these techniques otherwise u ill loose ur loving devotion, bas sing banii in love as bhai sahib used to do and gave us gift of akj style!! don jus take gurbani to luk at specific technique to open dasam duar and stuff lol. incase if u thinkin ji its not all about dasam duar, even sidhs and sadhus open there dasam duars bt guru ji gave us beautiful sikhi. there are some groups even say we do brahmgyani courses lol. As bhai sahib says do kirtan and recite gurbani with child like love and devotion, guru ji himself helps out :D so at first there is no technique at all .. all we need is Child like love and devotion :D

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1331

veer Ji I was mentioning those techniques for those people who are denying the fact that techniques do exist, and I 100% agree that love is needed for Naam Simran. Im not saying swas swas simran is the only means of simran. IAnybody who does Naam SImran is truly blessed, the more Abhyiaas a person does the more Kipra Guru Ji will give them on understanding Naam Simran.

I mainly posted to defend the Gurmat notion of Naam Drir. People have no shame these days. They are criticizing elements that are taught by Panj Pyaarey. DOnt they even understand who Panj Pyaarey are. Why are they trying to put doubts in peoples mind about Panj Pyaarey. People doing such things are greatly insuliting Guru Ji. I hope they understand what they are doing so they ask Guru Ji for forgiveness. I believe Keski is a kakkar but I would never dare say Panj Pyaarey are wrong for saying Kes. It is straight up blasphemy to talk down on Panj Pyaarey. I only hope that the SIngh who stated Naam Drir is mere tool to advertise repents for these statements.

Don't get caught up in this stuff about naam dhrir. It's just something used by one specific jatha as advertising. Baba Thakur Singh ji bhindrenwale and Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowalwale have both told me there is no need for naam dhrir. It is a mechanical technique taught by the punj of this one jatha (and apparently a ''few smaller jathas'' as well). Naam is beyond these mechanical techniques. Soormay and Mahapurks from the sampradas don't accept it as required. If you believe in it, fine for you, but it is not the puratan technique seeing as how the sampradas, who actually have the purataaan links to the past, don't accept it as the ''only best way''. bhul chuk maaf, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but it is the truth.

If you havent personally experienced Naam Dhrir then how can you discredit it. Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji a true saint scholar in his book Anhat Shabad Dasam Duar talks about Naam Dhrir given by Panj Pyaarey.It cant be given by any"Sant Baba " it can only be given by Panj Pyaarey. All sampradas including Rara Sahib mention a technique of Naam Simran. WHen doing Naam Simran one reaches certain stages Basanti , Para, etc. Panj Pyaaray teach you to reach the stage in which eventually the breath gets reversed and rises upward and you do automatic Ajap Jap Naam simran. These things are mentoined in Gurbani. How can you deny Gurbani?

rI klvwir gvwir mUF miq aulto pvnu iPrwvau ]

ree kalavaar gavaar moodt math oulatto pavan firaavo ||

You barbaric brute, with your primitive intellect - reverse your breath and turn it inward.

mnu mqvwr myr sr BwTI AMimRq Dwr cuAwvau ]1]

man mathavaar maer sar bhaat(h)ee a(n)mrith dhhaar chuaavo ||1||

Let your mind be intoxicated with the stream of Ambrosial Nectar which trickles down from the furnace of the Tenth Gate. ||1||

well i think sun singh paaji jus tryin to say that some pepl and jathes nt accept naam dhrir as required!! anyway sukhdeep singh pajii we cant say that we have to be naam dhrir to reach at particular stage!! this is just started by jatha.. wat about before that?? there were so many sants mahapurakhs reched at different stages. and ji hanji bhai randhir singh written in his book but ji in that times panj pyarey were in real chardikala, sorry to say but in these days panj are nt in avastha where they suppose to be as u can guess bak in days bhai randhir singh jis time in amrit sanchars so many abhilakhees gt there dasam duar open while receiving naam dhrir first time. as bhai randhir singh written in his book that

<The rasna (tongue) of Punj Pyare with Naam Kamaayee (one's who have earnings of Naam) is the rasna of Guru Sahib. Hearing the Naam Gurmantra from the holy and Amrit-drenched tongue of Punj Pyaare with Naam Kamaayee, under the leadership of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, causes wonderous, spiritually-attracting Paaras Kala (condition) and immediately after hearing the Naam with ears, the current of Naam Abhyaas runs in the seeker and this current then never stops flowing in the seeker.>

jio naam is beyond techniques... its like sweet laddu.. u can make pieces and eat it or u can just put in your mouth lol its not like only u can attain that spiritual bliss if u r naam dhrir frm some particular jatha

and ji u talkin about panj pyarey teaches you to reach at particular stage... i never heard about it. i also received naam dhrir from akj bt they never taught me any technique except to do swas giras!! and jii the stages u talkin about pasanti para baikhree madhma... these stages r nt to be teach by someone ... when one reaches at that stage ... one feels it!! you are right gurbani talks about it. its all about practical ji.. u dont need any technique in these stages as bhai sahib written in his buk that in first stages one starts hearing anhad shabad or u can say ajapa jaap and amrit start drenching frm dasam duar.. but that can only possible by guru jis kirpa and with our own effort.. we dont need any particular technique. again naam is beyond techniques doesnt matter how we uttering.. all we have to make sure is...

sRvxI suxIAY rsnw gweIAY ihrdY iDAweIAY soeI ]

sravanee suneeai rasanaa gaaeeai hiradhai dhhiaaeeai soee ||

Hear with your ears, and sing with your tongue, and meditate within your heart on Him.

and ji pls read

http://forums.panthic.net/index.php?showtopic=35250

bhul chuk maaf

Gsingh

Veer Ji I think you misunderstood my post. I did not mean to say Panj Pyaarey teach you to reach a certain stage. What I meant to say is that other groups mention that there are stages in Naam Simran. In which each stage the technique of Naam Simran changes. People who posted previous said there are no techniques to Naam Simran then they say sampradas dont accept these mechanical techniques. Sant Isher SIngh Ji ( RARA SAHIB oldest group to date) mentions it himself that the Para technique of doing Naam Simran through the Naab( navel) is the most beneficial way to do Naam Simran. I particaulary have not paid attention to these stages because I follow the technique given by Panj Pyaarey. But how can anyone deny there are not techniquesof Naam Simran. Everyday in Anand Sahib Guru Ji clearly states that inside the Shareer there is our swas which its desitnation is the Dasam Duar. Isnt there a method to rise that swas to the Dasam Duar. This swas can only ascend through Guru Jis direction and constant guidance. These people are denying Gurbani because they have failed to understand its secrets. Before they deny truths of Gurbani they should investigate internally themselves first instead of taking somebodys word that Naam Drir does not exist.

gur kY sMig rhY idnu rwqI rwmu rsin rMig rwqw ]

gur kai sa(n)g rehai dhin raathee raam rasan ra(n)g raathaa ||

He remains with the Guru, day and night, and his tongue savors the savory taste of the Lord's Love.

Avru n jwxis sbdu pCwxis AMqir jwix pCwqw ]1]

avar n jaanas sabadh pashhaanas a(n)thar jaan pashhaathaa ||1||

He does not know any other; he realizes the Word of the Shabad. He knows and realizes the Lord deep within his own being. ||1||

VaaheGuRu!

siqgur dwqY nwmu idVwieAw muiK msqik Bwg sBwgy ]1]

sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead. ||1||

rwm gurmiq hir ilv lwgy ]1] rhwau ]

raam guramath har liv laagae ||1|| rehaao ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, I am lovingly centered on the Lord. ||1||Pause||

Don't get caught up in this stuff about naam dhrir. It's just something used by one specific jatha as advertising. Baba Thakur Singh ji bhindrenwale and Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowalwale have both told me there is no need for naam dhrir. It is a mechanical technique taught by the punj of this one jatha (and apparently a ''few smaller jathas'' as well). Naam is beyond these mechanical techniques. Soormay and Mahapurks from the sampradas don't accept it as required. If you believe in it, fine for you, but it is not the puratan technique seeing as how the sampradas, who actually have the purataaan links to the past, don't accept it as the ''only best way''. bhul chuk maaf, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but it is the truth.

lol i am agree with Sun singh paaji...

if one reads gurbani by heart, with love .. naam goes automatic... the actual way guru maharaj told us :D and its the easiest way by reading gurbani as much as possible and when one reads bani from heart he feels to do naam simran more and more it works like fuel to fire... bt nowadays people even say u dont need to do nitnem bas naam jappo lol dasam duar khol lao ji.. bhul chuk maaf

so one have to meditate on gurmantar bt both gurbani and simran goes together ....

gurbwxI suix mYlu gvwey ]

gurabaanee sun mail gavaaeae ||

Listening to the Word of Gurbani, filth is washed off,

shjy hir nwmu mMin vswey ]1] rhwau ]

sehajae har naam ma(n)n vasaaeae ||1|| rehaao ||

and they naturally enshrine the Lord's Name in their minds. ||1||Pause||

Nitnem gives us instructions to do Naam Japna. At the end of the day its Naam Simran that will open the Dasam Duar.

All Panj Pyarae teach Abhilaakhis how to Jup and DriR Naam. Maharaaj Jee blesses Abhilaakhis with Naam. Naam is not restricted only to AKJ. The daat of Naam resides with Guru-Roop Panj Pyarae, who are Tyaar-Bar-Tyaar Singhs. If you want the daat of Naam, beg before Maharaaj Jee to give you the gift of Amrit Naam.

Waheguroo

Im glad you have pointed out that Naam Drir can only be given by Guru- Roop Panj Pyaarey, and mentioning this techinique is not restricted only to AKJ. This is so true. There are other Gupt groups that do Panj Pyaarey Seva and give Naam Drir. AKJ happens to be the group that are more publically known for this.

Don't get caught up in this stuff about naam dhrir. It's just something used by one specific jatha as advertising. Baba Thakur Singh ji bhindrenwale and Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowalwale have both told me there is no need for naam dhrir. It is a mechanical technique taught by the punj of this one jatha (and apparently a ''few smaller jathas'' as well). Naam is beyond these mechanical techniques. Soormay and Mahapurks from the sampradas don't accept it as required. If you believe in it, fine for you, but it is not the puratan technique seeing as how the sampradas, who actually have the purataaan links to the past, don't accept it as the ''only best way''. bhul chuk maaf, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but it is the truth.

If you havent personally experienced Naam Dhrir then how can you discredit it. Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji a true saint scholar in his book Anhat Shabad Dasam Duar talks about Naam Dhrir given by Panj Pyaarey.It cant be given by any"Sant Baba " it can only be given by Panj Pyaarey. All sampradas including Rara Sahib mention a technique of Naam Simran. WHen doing Naam Simran one reaches certain stages Basanti , Para, etc. Panj Pyaaray teach you to reach the stage in which eventually the breath gets reversed and rises upward and you do automatic Ajap Jap Naam simran. These things are mentoined in Gurbani. How can you deny Gurbani?

rI klvwir gvwir mUF miq aulto pvnu iPrwvau ]

ree kalavaar gavaar moodt math oulatto pavan firaavo ||

You barbaric brute, with your primitive intellect - reverse your breath and turn it inward.

mnu mqvwr myr sr BwTI AMimRq Dwr cuAwvau ]1]

man mathavaar maer sar bhaat(h)ee a(n)mrith dhhaar chuaavo ||1||

Let your mind be intoxicated with the stream of Ambrosial Nectar which trickles down from the furnace of the Tenth Gate. ||1||

It was the British who undermined Sri Dasam Granth. In addition, it was the British who changed the distinct saroop of Khalsa. During British Raj dastar was taken out of Gurmat Maryada, and women stopped wearing Dastars.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Im slightly delayed on the issue, but is there any relief programmes for the Sikhs of Pakistan? or is there anything we can do to help?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Yes United SIkhs need help, they need funds and sevadars.

http://www.panthic.org/news/126/ARTICLE/5070/2009-06-26.html

Sorry Veer Ji, but I dont know of any recordings.

Many of Bhai Sahibs writings and other great Gurmat Based writings.

http://www.vidhia.com/

Sadh Sangat has the ability to change the perception of yourself and the world around you. Your negative thinking is due to the dirt on your mind. We all tons of dirt on our mind due to the deeds of this life and other lifes. Company of Sadh Sanga wipes this dirt with the soap of Naam, then our way of thinking completely changes. We gain greater understanding of our potentials. ITs negativity that creates a let down heart which prevents us from seeing things in a positive light. We need courage to battle this negativity and prevent the heart from being let down. THis shabad explains how our perception changes through Sadh Sangat.

iblwvlu mhlw 5 ]

bilaaval mehalaa 5 ||

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla:

ipMgul prbq pwir pry Kl cqur bkIqw ]

pi(n)gul parabath paar parae khal chathur bakeethaa ||

The cripple crosses over the mountain, the fool becomes a wise man,

AMDuly iqRBvx sUiJAw gur Byit punIqw ]1]

a(n)dhhulae thribhavan soojhiaa gur bhaett puneethaa ||1||

and the blind man sees the three worlds, by meeting with the True Guru and being purified. ||1||

mihmw swDU sMg kI sunhu myry mIqw ]

mehimaa saadhhoo sa(n)g kee sunahu maerae meethaa ||

This is the Glory of the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; listen, O my friends.

mYlu KoeI koit AG hry inrml Bey cIqw ]1] rhwau ]

mail khoee kott agh harae niramal bheae cheethaa ||1|| rehaao ||

Filth is washed away, millions of sins are dispelled, and the consciousness becomes immaculate and pure. ||1||Pause||

AYsI Bgiq goivMd kI kIit hsqI jIqw ]

aisee bhagath govi(n)dh kee keett hasathee jeethaa ||

Such is devotional worship of the Lord of the Universe, that the ant can overpower the elephant.

jo jo kIno Awpno iqsu ABY dwnu dIqw ]2]

jo jo keeno aapano this abhai dhaan dheethaa ||2||

Whoever the Lord makes His own, is blessed with the gift of fearlessness. ||2||

isMGu iblweI hoie gieE iqRxu myru idKIqw ]

si(n)gh bilaaee hoe gaeiou thrin maer dhikheethaa ||

The lion becomes a cat, and the mountain looks like a blade of grass.

sRmu krqy dm AwF kau qy gnI DnIqw ]3]

sram karathae dham aadt ko thae ganee dhhaneethaa ||3||

Those who worked for half a shell, will be judged very wealthy. ||3||

kvn vfweI kih skau byAMq gunIqw ]

kavan vaddaaee kehi sako baea(n)th guneethaa ||

What glorious greatness of Yours can I describe, O Lord of infinite excellences?

kir ikrpw moih nwmu dyhu nwnk dr srIqw ]4]7]37]

kar kirapaa mohi naam dhaehu naanak dhar sareethaa ||4||7||37||

Please bless me with Your Mercy, and grant me Your Name; O Nanak, I am lost without the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||4||7||37||

Look how much courage we gain throug the Sadh Sangat. Even a terrifying Lion looks like a little cat.

How do we recognize Sadh Sangat? Where Waaheguru is being praised with full devotion .

Please answer honestly with your thinking behind the decision and if anyone does bless me with an answer, please don't argue with anyone on the matter Gursikha

Personally I cannot go to any wedding where drinking and meat are being served. I have close friends from the time when I was a mona who ask me to come to their weddings, and I have rejected on the basis of religious principles. I go to the ANand Karaj, but its not possible for me to go to the party. I have chosen a different life which conflict with things like parties, drinking, eating meat ,etc. As Gursikhs we have to stay true to Gurus principles even if it doesnt make us popular or displeases other people.We cant go to places in which Guru Ji would be displeased. How are these things going to raise our spiritual jeevan? We need to be careful and wise about the company we keep.

kbIr mnu pMKI BieE auif auif dh ids jwie ]

kabeer man pa(n)khee bhaeiou oudd oudd dheh dhis jaae ||

Kabeer, the mind has become a bird; it soars and flies in the ten directions.

jo jYsI sMgiq imlY so qYso Plu Kwie ]86]

jo jaisee sa(n)gath milai so thaiso fal khaae ||86||

According to the company it keeps, so are the fruits it eats. ||86||

kbIr jw kau Kojqy pwieE soeI Tauru ]

kabeer jaa ko khojathae paaeiou soee t(h)our ||

Kabeer, you have found that place which you were seeking.

soeI iPir kY qU BieAw jw kau khqw Aauru ]87]

soee fir kai thoo bhaeiaa jaa ko kehathaa aour ||87||

You have become that which you thought was separate from yourself. ||87||

kbIr mwrI mrau kusMg kI kyly inkit ju byir ]

kabeer maaree maro kusa(n)g kee kaelae nikatt j baer ||

Kabeer, I have been ruined and destroyed by bad company, like the banana plant near the thorn bush.

auh JUlY auh cIrIAY swkq sMgu n hyir ]88]

ouh jhoolai ouh cheereeai saakath sa(n)g n haer ||88||

The thorn bush waves in the wind, and pierces the banana plant; see this, and do not associate with the faithless cynics. ||88||

kbIr Bwr prweI isir crY cilE cwhY bwt ]

kabeer bhaar paraaee sir charai chaliou chaahai baatt ||

Kabeer, the mortal wants to walk on the path, carrying the load of others' sins on his head.

Apny Bwrih nw frY AwgY AauGt Gwt ]89]

apanae bhaarehi naa ddarai aagai aoughatt ghaatt ||89||

He is not afraid of his own load of sins; the road ahead shall be difficult and treacherous. ||89||

kbIr bn kI dwDI lwkrI TwFI krY pukwr ]

kabeer ban kee dhaadhhee laakaree t(h)aadtee karai pukaar ||

Kabeer, the forest is burning; the tree standing in it is crying out,

May I hasten to add that not all us goreh are Nazi or BNP supporters, just like not all muslims are terrorists, it is just a selected few!

This whole messed up ideology really aggravates me. There are plenty of goreh in the UK who are not racist, xenophobic or fascist etc. and do actually welcome those of other nationalities, ethnicities and religions and see them for who they are - simply as human beings, and don't place stupid judgements, such as judging someone based solely on the colour of their flippin skin!

There are millions of goreh in the UK who despise the BNP or any other racist and fascist party - hence why there no where near getting into power and they are voting for far better parties e.g. The Green Party etc. I believe that white individual had his right to do what he did and for that, he is not a Nazi! Free Speech is what makes this country great.

I am guessing that thoundands of Sikhs would be in uproar if the streets were filled with posters and banners saying Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee was actually a Hindu or something equally as offensive and disrespectful. Its the same thing for that man, he felt he had to defend his beliefs.

This was not targeted at anyone in particular, I just felt I had to share my views. May I also apologise if I have offended anyone as this wasn't my intention.

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

Well said. Unfortunately many people like to generalize populations despite Guru Ji saying we shouldnt be making such generalizations.

ihMdU qurk koaU rwPjI iemwm swPI mwns kI jwq sbY eykY pihcwnbo ]

hi(n)dhoo thurak kooo raafajee eimaam saafee maanas kee jaath sabai eaekai pehichaanabo ||

Some are Hindus and others are Muslims. someone is lliifazi (ashiah=renouncer-follower of Ali) and another an Imam-Shafi (Sunni=adherent of the Prophet) but ye recognize all human race as one.

and

eykY nYn eykY kwn eykY dyh eykY bwn Kwk bwd Awqs AO Awb ko rlwau hY ]

eaekai nain eaekai kaan eaekai dhaeh eaekai baan khaak baadh aathas a aab ko ralaao hai ||

All human beings have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body and the same build. All creation is a blend of the earth, the air, the fire and the water.

jYsy eyk Awg qy knUkw kot Awg auTy inAwry inAwry huie kY Pyir Awg mY imlwihNgy ]

jaisae eaek aag thae kanookaa kott aag out(h)ae niaarae niaarae hue kai faer aag mai milaahi(n)agae ||

As from a big fire, millions of sparks of fire arise, they get scattered and again they merge in the same fire.

jYsy eyk DUr qy Anyk DUr pUrq hY DUr ky knUkw Pyr DUr hI smwihNgy ]

jaisae eaek dhhoor thae anaek dhhoor poorath hai dhhoor kae kanookaa faer dhhoor hee samaahi(n)agae ||

As from a heap that consists of myriads of dust particles, those dust bits disperse and arise above and then those dust particles merge in the same dust.

If their is equality in sikhi and np dowry then how come, bride's parents must pay for the wedding? I believe it should be 50/50 but my sister's soon to be in laws want us to pay for the wedding and then gift their family members gold, etc. I know it is an old tradition from when it was thought to be like dowry that the groom gets "payment" for being the one that now has to take care of the bride but seriously, this is old fashioned and just cultural, not religious.

The in laws r very religious but this is annoying. they keep saying, we want good food, good entertainment, this and that but aren't willing to pay even a little. they r in uk btw not india so i would have assumed they left behind this old mentality and moved on to the 21st century but i guess not.

my question: is this something that is cultural or according to sikhi? my parents don't want to force them to pay b/c they say they would treat my sister badly later on. I told my sis to find a guy on her own that is willing to leave on his own, not with parents as she is really stressed and unhappy about this.

Punjabi's r unfair and hypocritical. one on hand they say they r religious then they still want to be punjabi but lots of punjabi things don;t go hand in hand with religion. a lot of the traditions and cultures r sexist, etc.

anyways, rant over!

without a doubt I believe this is cultural and has no place in Dharma. In the old days there were no fancy expensive weddings. Granthis, raagis were not payed X amount of dollars to do seva. In addition there was no need to pay thousands of dollars for a DJ or a wedding hall so people can dance and get drunk. Langar was provided by both families or the sangat. Instead nowadays we like to make weddings up according to Hindu Cultural practices. For example, nowadays people give money to the brides family. There is a Hukumnama by Dasmi Paatshah in which Guru Ji states that dowry is striclty forbidden. A Sikh women princess of Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji is not a peice of property which can be bought through money. Dowry is a dehumanizing practice and has no place in Sikhi which believes in gender/race equality. Here is a nice video that shows a simple Gurmat Orientated Anand Karaj .

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5326095/140413

I think such ceremonies like the birth ceremony, anand kaaraj, and death ceremony should be kept private.

I think its a wonderful idea to show videos how an Anand Karaj is suppose to be. You go to most weddings and you see the bride with make up all over her face, earings in her nose. The groom with a trimmed beard, and people get the idea that this is what an Anand Karaj is.

I heard it was a great wedding! Strictly spiritual no cultural elements included.

you see, many names have different meanings in sikhi. e.g. brahma is a name for the hindu diety AND for God. as is vishnu, as is Shiva. Shiva is used for God in a passage from Chandi Charitra, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji; Deh Shiva Bar Moh Ehe...

here Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking God in his warrior aspect, as Shiva in Indian history is a personicication for a warrior. hence the diety Shiva who too is a warrior.

Mahakaal is a name for shiva, but also a name for God. Mahakaal meaning the Great Death. relating to shiva as being the mythological "destruction of the world", as a name for God, as being the destroyer of EVERYTHING.

in Sri Sarbloh Granth there is a quote "Mahakaal Jagdees Hai, Sarbloh Avtar" meaning that Mahakaal (God) is the creator of the world (jag-world, dees-creator), and his form is of sarbloh (pure-iron).

Yes, I thought so too.

but what I understand from this is that the Nihangs practice a more puratanic form of Sikhism, which veers away from the more modern form of sikhism which was established after the 'Tat Khalsa' movement which grew in the patronage of British. So the group that went with mainstream Sikhism began to develop a silent or rather unspelt animosity with the Nihangs and the Udasis who were considered more pro-sanatanic and which directly derived vocabulary and inspiration from the dharmic-lexicon ?

It is also fascinating for me personally to note the large extent to which the british penetrated the Indic society and how the vestiges of their rule haunt us to this day. If the Mughals were purely barbarity, the British were barbarity mixed with deep cunning and manipulation of human psyche to meet their own ends. Truly they set out and screwed the country nice and proper.

And this ego clash within Sikhism between the sanatanics and the modernists is what is breeding the anti-Hinduism because the Sikhs as a community can't settle this amongst themselves since they can't raise their sword against brothers. It is weakening it from within.

this much I can gather from responses by various members and some external reading from internet sources.

indeed you have done you research.

wha is now collectively known as "mainstream sikhi" is what was created by the SGPC (Singh Sabha). to actually encounter a tangible existance of the puratan snatan sikhi you will have to venture to Sri Hazoor Sahib Ji. here the original maryada is preserved, much to the unliking of the Tat Khalsa of Punjab.

for more reference on this, invest in a book called "In The Master's Presence, the Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib". in this book there is the complete history of the true snatan sikh maryada which has been carried out since the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Lol, slaughtering Animals, performing Aarti, worshipping Babey. This is what you call puratan Sikhi? Are you a chela of Niddar?

If you want to see the true side of Sikhi go to Sri Harmandir Sahib. Home of celesital shaheeds that protect Gurmat Maryada.

Langar is only prepared by Amrit Dharis, whole complex is packed with sevadars doing seva 24/7. Naam Simran /Gurbani going on through out the day. That is true Sikhi which is based on Seva, SImran, Sadh Sangat, and Sacrifice. Not a sacricing an innocent goats head to please Shiva, Durga or whatever Hindu God.

The RSS guys are going to suffer from the sinful karmaas. In the last 1 year, islamic militant organizations have become more powerful. Taliban is rising and is getting nearer to India. US is losing its superpower status which is allowing the rise of Taliban and other militant organizations.

I have a strong feeling that in the future HINDUISM WILL GET EXTINCT FROM THE PLANET as the future is going to be similar to what used to happen 300-400 years back. It will be about the survival of the fittest, bravest and toughest. Hindus will either die or they will convert to Islam.

I think this is a unfair assesment of Hindus. All Hindus are bad. In fact, there is no such thing as a Hindu religion. Meaning unlike Sikhi ,Hinduism is not a monolithic religion with set values. There are all different kinds of Hindus whos values/beliefs/customs are very diverse. Only the Hindu Fanatics like the RSS have tryed to make Hinduism into a uniformal religion. These morons have even gone to the extent of trying to include CHristians, Muslims ,and Sikhi into the Hindu fold. Its obvious that these moorakhs have lost the plot.

U dint understand what I am saying. The GHOR SINFUL ACTIVITIES OF RSS is going to power the islamic militant organizations to create more havoc in India in the future. Its just a karmic thing. If India gets into trouble, punjabis and sikhs will have troubled times too but its all happening in the Will of God.

India in the last 60 years has collected HUGE HUGE NEGATIVE KARMA. This negative karma is going to lead to the destruction of India in the near future.

Sorry for misunderstanding your comments. I was just put off by your last remark about Hindus dying or converting.

I agree no doubt that the tyrant will eventually fall flat on its face as tyrannts always have a bad fate. FOr example Hitler shot himself out of despair, Saddam Hussein was hanged, Taliban who kicked Sikhs out of the Swat are now being bombarded by AMericans,etc. But I dont think its a case in which India will be Islamized. The power of Naam is going to rebuild this country which once had a reputation of being the most spiritual place in the world.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

this shows you sikh sangats mentality level: 'All Hindus are bad'

you made my day, honestly, you really did... Thanks!

Oops what I meant to say all Hindus arent Bad. If you read the remainding paragraph you will notice I am calling Hindu fanatics as bad.

look, GNNSJ hounslow, do have very elderly people who come to the gurdwara, if you see them then you will understand why they cannot sit on the floor, some of them find it hard to even do namaskar! theres only two tables in the corner with 8 chairs.

I think its reasonable to have chairs and tables for those that cant sit on the floor, but unfortunately people try to take advantage of this policy for the eldery/handicapped. The same way people take Handicap parking spots! There should be signs that read chairs for those who cant sit.

The RSS guys are going to suffer from the sinful karmaas. In the last 1 year, islamic militant organizations have become more powerful. Taliban is rising and is getting nearer to India. US is losing its superpower status which is allowing the rise of Taliban and other militant organizations.

I have a strong feeling that in the future HINDUISM WILL GET EXTINCT FROM THE PLANET as the future is going to be similar to what used to happen 300-400 years back. It will be about the survival of the fittest, bravest and toughest. Hindus will either die or they will convert to Islam.

I think this is a unfair assesment of Hindus. All Hindus arent bad. In fact, there is no such thing as a Hindu religion. Meaning unlike Sikhi ,Hinduism is not a monolithic religion with set values. There are all different kinds of Hindus whos values/beliefs/customs are very diverse. Only the Hindu Fanatics like the RSS have tryed to make Hinduism into a uniformal religion. These morons have even gone to the extent of trying to include CHristians, Muslims ,and Sikhi into the Hindu fold. Its obvious that these moorakhs have lost the plot.

I suppose Satguru Ramdas SahibJee wasnt aware oof the flow of sangat when thousands used to visit and eat langar or even Satguru Gobind Singh Jee who had thousands with then each divaan - langar should be eaten on the floor - i respect issues with elderly which can be done on table - debatable - but to have a whole langar hall with tables and chairs is clearly wrong, its interesting how the jathedaar of akaal takht past and present dont notice whenever they come to uk - they always go soho road. Yet they say they dont do politics. rather funky i say.

If the Jathedar made a stand and decided not to visit any Gurdwaras that have chairs and tables the truth is he probabaly wont be visiting many Gurdwaras in the Birmigham area. Even SMethwick Gurdwaras has chairs and tables inside the langar hall.

Even as the national-level political parties as well as regional parties are busy in their introspection for their debacle in the recent Lok Sabha elections, the Rashtirya Swayam Sevak Sangh (RSS) has come out with an agenda to broaden its base amongst the Sikh masses.

The Rashtriya Sikh Sangat, a front organisation of the RSS, has planned a three-day religious congregation in Bhopal under the auspicious occasion of 300 years of Gurta Gaddi Diwas.

President of Rashtriya Sikh Sangat (Punjab), Rulda Singh, has sent a salvo under the garb of a request letter to Avtar Singh Makkar, the president of the Shri Gurdwara Prabhandak Committiee (SGPC), for seeking certain favours for the religious congregation at Bhopal.

Though Rulda Singh has termed this letter to Makkar as a simple request letter by a devoted Sikh for removing the differences, if any, prevalent in the mind of Makkar, between the lines it smacks that the RSS has a hidden agenda to prevail upon the Sikhs being alienated from the SAD and SGPC to a large extent.

This is also a systematic move not only to win the Sikhs living all over the world but also a consistent foresighted move to unmask the SGPC and SAD from their double faces regarding the Sikhs.

The copy of RSS letter which has been released to the media contains a request to Makkar that he should make further request to the jathedar Akal Takhat, other jathedars of the four Takhts, the SAD, including the Chief Minister, and his Cabinet, besides MLA's to participate in the conclave for interaction and exchange of views of both the sides.

It also says for the sale and free use of all sorts of religious publications and symbols of the Sikh religion at the venue in a big way for the benefit of masses. Rulda Singh also said the RSS believed and worshipped Guru Granth Sahib as Makkar does.

A senior SAD leader when asked about his reaction, said, on the condition of anonymity that definitely this is a double-edged weapon of the RSS against the SAD through the SGPC. Therefore, neither the SGPC can accede to the request of RSS nor it can openly deny these demands.

It probably wont be hard to convince Badals chamcha Makkar to submit to RSS's request.

"It also says for the sale and free use of all sorts of religious publications and symbols of the Sikh religion at the venue in a big way for the benefit of masses."

i wonder what kind of Garbage literature they will be trying to pass out.