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5 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

In simple terms you're saying they became Mukht without physical presence of Satguru which in Gurbani as per my understanding is one and no other.

 

Yes exactly!. Sargun upasakh will get darshan of sargun vahiguru further blessing ensues four type of mukhti based on the desire of upasakh,  Satguru Nirgun upasakh gets realization of all pervading Nirgun-kaival mukhti(5th type)-turiya.

 

59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

This got me thinking. So we all know Guru Ji and Parmeshar are one and the same, so being timeless and eternally sat saroop are you saying that through some indirect route they were able to deliver saints providing they were not all contemporaries of Satguru Nanak Sahib? 

 

 

59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

What was the process of Bhagats becoming mukht. Did they have to take Amrit, was it achieved through their own Guru's (something I will find hard to accept), where is this stated in Gurbani, how can we say another Guru is equal to Satguru?

Through limited searches we find that their is evidence and otherwise for Bhagats having been in Guru Ji's time. Meharbaan Janamsakhi states Bhagats had met Guru Nanak or Bhagat Bani book by Giani Gurdit Singh.

ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਸੈਨੁ ਤਰੈ ॥
नामदेव कबीरु तिलोचनु सधना सैनु तरै ॥
Nāmḏev Kabīr ṯilocẖan saḏẖnā sain ṯarai.
Naam Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan, Sadhana and Sain crossed over.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਸਰੈ ॥੨॥੧॥
कहि रविदासु सुनहु रे संतहु हरि जीउ ते सभै सरै ॥२॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās sunhu re sanṯahu har jī▫o ṯe sabẖai sarai. ||2||1||
Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished. ||2||

Whats the process ? I guess we have to read bhagat bani and read their experiences, ultimately they gotten mukhti (realized their inner self-atma) through Internal all pervading nirgun Satguru Nanak nirankar/Vahiguru grace which is one and same. As we know all the bhagats were ultimately went from sargun upasana to nirgun upasana and were nirgun upasakhs based on gurbani. With nirgun upasana there is no middle men nor there is mantar/naam in overt sense its only turiya* gyan of one saroop/naam/inner force of Satguru eternal consciouness-kaival mukhti (No abhramic god giving ya smiling up in the sky or transmission)

aad aneel anaad anaahat jug jug eko vays || 

 

Turiya- https://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

2 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Unable to locate it now, it was from SA or an old post here. It was not attributed to anyone from memory (which I might add is flaky at the best of times)!

I can search on sa if i could find it, btw it be nice to see you on SA once and while..swing by sometime.

This is my understanding so open to learning as sikh is always learning. I do have to break it down to share, took me while to contextualize everything so there is no contradiction everything can be reconciled properly.

Satguru Nanak/Impersonal from ultimate principle-essence/ bhramgyan/advait-non dual/shabad gyan perspective/viewpoint/aspect (Nanak Nirgun Nirankar)

IkOngkar Satgurparsad comes 523 times in sri guru granth sahib ji, its mangal but its just not a mangal, its essence teaching and ultimate meaning of Ikongkar (One non dual being)  satgurparsad which is sat(eternal) gur(chiatain-all prevading non dual consciousness) and anand(bliss)  realized by kirpa of internal(all pervading satguru) with or without form. There is only one.

From gurmat non dual/bhramgyan/gyan aspect- yugas nor avtars nor bodies nor mind (no object or subject) no separate soul/ perception of them exist independently, its constant one without second ultimate reality-akaal morat as there is no time and space in the backdrop ultimate reality which is LIVE PRESENT NOW always eternally present.

Satguru Nanak from devotional/bhagati/shabad aspect(Sargun)

Our eleven Guru's physical sargun saroop- Shabad Guru surat dhun chela along with our eleven physical guru's deh saroop, khalsa panth glorified via nine types of bhagti.

Since Satguru Nanak/Vahiguru were ultimately nirankar saroop which never changes, all pervading inner vahiguru/consciousness, there is no need for bhagats to come back in kalyug to get "mukhti" as they were given mukhti by universal satguru Nanak/vahiguru to begin with as per bani in sri guru granth sahib ji.

However, from historical context some of the bhagats came back incarnated as panj pyares and took amrit from Sri guru gobind singh ji to benefit human kind and be in the dharam.

The issue clearly becomes this gets turned into some sort of rule, gets boxed into some part of process-mukthi liberation recipe and used it as some sort of yard stick, then all the already mukht bhagats in previous yugas or before they had somehow to come back in physical sikhi fold- retake intiation in order to be mukht, thats clearly contary to gurmat and some what laughable from non dual- gurmat advait sat chit anand-satguru perspective as that would be totally undermining ultimate all prevading Satguru-self sustaining unchangeable-grace capacity to give mukhti to its bhagats during ages via various infinite ways/emanating ways-previous yug avtars their duties- when and where its required.

One has to make up their mind, do they acknowledge satguru being eternal all prevading or limit satguru into deh form - 5 shud elemental? What their actual position? Do they not beleive satguru in self illuminated nirankar roop can't do kirpa of bhagats in previous yugas via various non defined ways? or bhagats in previous yugas have to go through audorous conceptual process by divine to come back in sikhi physical path to get mukhti?

Screenshot attached from Japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale

*Ultimate meaning of Nanak*

*Ikongkar Satgurparsad
*Gurmat is it non dual(advait) or dualistic(dvait-two)-more about non dualism-  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

*Avtar metaphysics http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/9158-the-role-of-avatar-in-traditional-sikh-metaphsyics/

*Gurmat is anadi Gurmat is anadi.mp3

 

 

Quote

Vritti, literally "whirlpool", is a technical term in yoga meant to indicate that the contents of mental awareness are disturbances in the medium of consciousness.^[1] Vritti can be taken as a catch-all term for any content in consciousness, where consciousness is regarded as a medium or container for any possible mental content. The scope of the idea is very broad, referring not only to thoughts and perceptions experienced in a normal waking state, but also to all super-physical perceptions, such as dreams or in any altered state of consciousness. 

source: http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/7674-know-your-real-self/

source: Discourse on beyond II

 

~ Know your Real Self ~

 

 

First descended from Waheguru (God), a transparent ray, the conscious reality, which combing with nature took the epithet of living being. Round this ray, spread a mini globe- like substance, and the ray became resplendent. This state has been termed as the first separation (isolation) of atma(soul) from god(paratma) and has been called the sheath of bliss. After this, with the coming of thinking, one automatically moves into second circle of Maya (illusion). This is Miracle of Intellect. It was named the intellect of sheath. Descending lower still, there awakened the idea of making some achievement of producing something new. Affections and allurements brought this being under their control and pushed him into countless programmes, which are ever-expanding, so that the chain is never broken. The state of mind has been called the mental sheath. One was caught in the circle of resolution and repudiation. Beyond this stage, the cosmic energy pushed it still further down and called it the circle of power or the vital sheath. This power was born out of the relationships of the illusion. After this, it assumed some form and went on assuming different forms. As Guru Maharaj has ordained-

 

For several births thou became a worm and a moth.

In several birth thou wert an elephant, a fish and a deer.

In several births thou became a birth and a snake.

In several births thou were t yoked as a horse and a ox. SGGS JI- 176.

 

This cirlce of different bodies is called "Annmayee Kosh". Kosh the sheath of food.

 

In this way, this pure consciousness (drop) went on amassing around it tendencies towards illusions. It forgot its real nature and completely lost thought of the fact as to Who I am, and wherefrom I have come. Not recognizing oneself as the pure (divine) light, one started looking on oneself as just the body, which is made of five elements which is subject to all sorts of ills. The wise called this circle as sheath of food. It forsook it's real state of supreme happiness and considering oneself as the being of dust, it from the time immortal, has been going through the circle of births and deaths and has been experiencing untold miseries. He has been weeping and crying and lamenting. He does not realize how could he reunited with his original source(God), Who is all truth, all super consciousness and never ending bliss; and return to his original stage. So caught in miseries, he keeps on lamenting.

 

The seers, the prophets, the saints and sages, philosophers, and those who have known the secrets of the Divine have told man many supernatural ways to the real true path. These prophets having coming out of the source of all purity appeared in the most holy forms. They by their saying gave to man the gospel of vedas and puranas, bible and holy writ all of which assumed their loftiest form in the shape of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

The fifth emperor of the world Guru Arjan Dev has commanded thus, to free his being from the circle of world of woe-

 

Sing the praise of the lord, O friendly saints, with alertness and single mindedness. SGGS JI - 295

 

This is a very simple path, treading on which man, over coming countless obstacles one can merge into his real self, which is all light. To achieve this goal, concentration of mind is extremely necessary. So long as one does not know how to achieve concentration of mind, that long all his prayers and other efforts remain fruitless. There are some tendencies of mind, which do not allow one to achieve concentration of mind. Of these, the first tendency is named Mentality of Evidence.

 

1. Mentality of Evidence (Parman Birthi/Regarding the outward world as the Supreme reality)- Whatever is the spread that is visible, they may be children, wife, parents, one's own body the different relationships of the bodies, friends, enemies, things that brings joys or sorrows remaining engrossed in all these things is termed Mindset of evidence. To withdraw the mind from this world of sights and sounds seems extremely difficult. Till one gets the guidance of a perfect Guru, one cannot be liberated from this visible world. Guru Maharaj's sermon is-

 

All that is seen, shall go not with thee, O Man. So abandon thou thy self-conceit and worldly attachment SGGS Ji- 1230

 

This being knows that he is not to stay in this world for all time, nor are sons and daughters, wife, parents eternal in the world, yet when one of them dies, he is over-whelmed with unbearable grief at their separation and can't rise above this slush.

 

2. The reverse mindset ( viparje birthi)- The second type of mentality is named the Reverse Mindset. In this stage, everything appears the opposite of what it is; things non-existent appear to have existed, and things existing seem non-existing. It is like the example of a traveling in summer through the desert, where man being tortured by thirst is desperately in need of water to quench his thirst. In the desert land, he has mirage that a river over-flowing with cold water is flowing at some distance from him. This deception seems to give to him some feeling to be a true fact. But when he reaches that place, he finds nothing there. It was just a mirage. Similarly, everyday he sees the world with his eyes and hears it with his ears and regards this outward world as full truth.

 

Before our very eyes, this world is seen passing away. SGGS JI - 325

 

Still he regards the world as a true reality. On the other hand Waheguru Ji, who is omnipresent and is immanent everywhere-

 

Wherever I see, there I see him present. He, my master, is never far from any place.

O my soul, ever remember him, who is contained in everything. SGGS Ji- 677

 

In the earth, in the sky

There pervades a light in all.

It can't be added to, nothing can be subtracted from it.

It permits no change (Akal Ustati, Siri Dasam Granth).

 

 

According to this holy write, inside and outside, all is full of good. With his power, go on the entire operation of the world; with the power of his name, the world appears, man regards this all pervading spirit as untrue. There is not trace of doubt in such a person. He feels that the world around him is all truth and God, who is All-perfection, spread all-round in the Universe is untrue. This mentality is called opposite Mindset. Guru Maharaj makes reference to it-

 

This world is the mountain of smoke.

What thought has made thee deem it real? SGGS Ji- 1187.

 

3. The sleeping mentality (niranda birthi)- The third type of mentality is called sleeping mindset. Man knows all and reads all, still he keeps lost under the power of sleep. This stage of forgetting the Reality is called the sleeping mentality.

 

4. Alternative Mentality (vikalp birthi)- The four kind is named Alternative mentality. Man does small good acts such as giving charity, the recitation of the bani and holy singing, and with the aid of these small items, he has hope of great fruit. In other words, under the influence of this mentality, one feels the great effect of desires. Little service and alternative mentality does not allow the mind to achieve full concentration in the prayers to God.

 

5. Remembering Mentality (Simriti Birthi)- The fifth type is the Remembering Mentality. When a person begins prayer and obeisance to God, when he starts recitation of the gospel, and when he tries to unite his consciousness with God's name, he has memories of long-forgotten things. This memory mindset does not allow him to offer prayers whole heartedly; his reading of the holy texts won't bear fruit.

 

Try to understand this fact by means of a parable. When Guru Nanak, the emperor of the world, while bathing in the Bein River plunged into water and came out after three days, he was repeating only one saying-

 

I am Neither a Hindu, Nor a Muslim.

My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the lord of Hindus. SGGS Ji- 1136

 

---

Source: Japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindrnawale pdf page- 419

Interesting question, unfortunately don't know the answer. Vaishakhi is coming up in april, there will be lots of amrit sanchars occurring across the country,  just call them gurdwara and ask panj pyares directly instead of relying on indirect inferences here, just ask i have a friend who belongs to hijare(transsexual) category , is he/she allowed to take amrit?. If its allowed, don't think you have to pick singh or kaur then there nor they assigned to you, at least not that i am aware of.?

I would think its not clear cut-simple yes or no, its probably assessed case by case basis depending on seeker interest in sikhi and state of mind.

According to my understanding panj pyares (pacha ka gur ek dyaan) mostly they only operate and concentrate on/from universal all pervading guru(pure consciousness in all ) which exist in everyone and from universal sri guru granth sahib- universal sidhant of it, so fist they only see goodness so by default they operate from that point of view and assess case by case basis.

Khalsa is given status of enlighten being as sarbloh granth mentions- 

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalas Dev, Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered and realized the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

So with that definition and one above posted kept in mind, most of us are not there yet once we do serious self introspection, we are still learning sikhs and have conditioning, influenced by five vices, we are in the same boat just like everyone else. You see stakes are so high set by sri guru gobind singh  in game of being khalsa (atamgyani/bhramgyani) minute sikh start accusing jagmeet singh of tarnishing image of khalsa- tables turns right away and self reflection mirror is shown to  them so they can reflect on this verse:

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalas Dev, Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered and realized the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

 

Sri guru granth sahib ji is limitless ocean of gyan-wisdom. Other dharam scriptures are sea of gyan in the ocean.  Check out comparative commentary by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale on mahavaks of gurbani and vedas.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15795-~~deep-gnosis-behind-mahavak-in-gurbani~/

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15768-gurbani-position-on-vedas-beautifully-explained-by-sant-gyani-gurbachan-singh-khalsa-bhindranwale/

Sant isher singh ji rara sahib used to say in their divans, karam and upasana of all dharams are different , different but when it comes to gyan, they all point towards same gyan.

So when it comes down to essence- ultimate truth statements- Mahavak gyan, its present both in hinduism and buddhism.

Hinduism have main four mahavaks among others in upanishads, vedant such as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahāvākyas

The Mahavakyas are:

    prajñānam brahma - "Prajñāna[note 1] is Brahman"[note 2], or "Brahman is Prajñāna"[web 3] (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 of the Rig Veda)
    ayam ātmā brahma - "This Self (Atman) is Brahman" (Mandukya Upanishad 1.2 of the Atharva Veda)
    tat tvam asi - "Thou art That" (Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7 of the Sama Veda)
    aham brahmāsmi - "I am Brahman", or "I am Divine"[7] (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.10 of the Yajur Veda)

Buddhism also have main mahavaks among with others:

Heart sutra- Emptiness is form, form is emptiness very similiar to our gyan- Nirgun Aaap Sargun Bhi Ohi

 http://www.sanghalou.org/oldsitebackup/heart_suttra.htm

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate Bodhi svaha

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate Bodhi svaha

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate Bodhisvaha.

Bodhi Svaha

Om mani padme hum

Namo Ratna Trayāya, (homage to the triple gem) Namah Aryā Jñāna Sāgara, (homage to the ocean of noble wisdom) Vairocana, (the illuminator) Vyuharajāya (to the king of the host [also the name of a bodhisattva]) Tathagatāya, (to the tathagata) Arhate, (to the arhat) Samyak sambuddhāya, (to the perfectly awakened one) Nama Sarva TathagatebhyaH (homage to all tathagatas) ArhatebhyaH, (to the arhats) Samyak SambuddhebhyaH, (to the fully and perfectly awakened ones) Nama Aryā Avalokiteshvarāya (homage to noble Avalokitesvara) Bodhisattvāya, (to the bodhisattva) Maha Sattvāya, (to the great being) Maha Karunikāya, (to the greatly compassionate one) Tadyatha (thus):Om Dhāra Dhāra, (bearing) Dhīri Dhīri, (firm) Dhuru Dhuru (bearing a burden) Itte Vatte, (??) Cale Cale, (moving, trembling, shaking) Pracale Pracale, (moving, trembling, shaking) Kusume (in flower) Kusume Vare, (in the circumference) Hili Mili (??) Citi Jvālam, (blazing understanding) Apanaye Svāhā. (leading away) hail!

Even Christianity has supreme statements-mahavak too in their gnosis esoteric literature among with others such as-

I am that I am (EXODUS)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Lot of people consider alan watts as philosopher and zen mystic. I've read his literature, its pretty good same as echkhart tolle. They discuss common universal theme of all religions which is chetan- atma- pure consciousness/awareness- substratum essence of all things.

As mentioned by veer turbanator its inline with universal concept of sikhi- essence of sikhi- Satguru ultimately being all prevading non dual -sat(eternal) chit(pure consciousness/awareness) anand(bliss) saroop. See essence esoteric meaning of gurparsad (pdf page-114 and satgurparsad(pdf page-955) in japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale.

3 hours ago, Premi5 said:

Is Suicide ever acceptable in Sikhi?

My specific example would be during partition where father's were killing daughters/women were jumping into wells etc to save honour.

Or is suicide never acceptable? 

Thanks

From ultimate point of view, there is no free will , everything is pre-determined, without god's will not even leaf can move. With that being said, yes its good to have some sort of framework-maryada in regards to euthanasia and suicide on relative level.

Suicide is not sikh way, as sikh way is discriminating power-bibek which separates reality from illusion as  lets see what actually dies upon sucide- body dies, but mind that triggers suicidal thoughts, pushes one to brink of suicide still lives on assumes another body-next life based on desires, good and bad karams, suicidal thoughts residue left imprinted on mind. So clearly who is the culprit here and what really died? Body or mind? Sikhi suggest to kill the mind into ocean of gyan pure aware atma not body as mind is causing suffering.

Now going back to the example-

Quote

My specific example would be during partition where father's were killing daughters/women were jumping into wells etc to save honour.

Very different circumstances, its hard to impose what one should or shouldn't do when they are in crisis situation like this as one tends to follow their instinct at the end of day. But i will say- doing ardas infront of maharaj to have strength to fight back everything at the disposal would be the way  if i ever stuck in that kinda situation and besides there is practical reason we (men and women alike) are given kirpan to fight back injustice at any given time.

As Inderjit Singh veer above mentioned, We shouldn't compare ourselves with Satguru as they were embodiment of nirankar themselves. 

In regards to pain in general, I'll just further add, In essence, our real self atma is above pain and pleasure. When one realizes their Atma-infinite consciousness. In other words, when one go back to their source-infinite expansive consciousness and realize it, Infinite expansive consciousness takes over center stage/center being in the body and take precedence over regular body pain, One is always abided and dissolved in that, its actual quite blissful state.

Imagine whole infinite consciousness/life force takes over your body, takes possession of your body. Many saints have explained this state as full of energy with back drop of calm unmovable awareness there are no sorrows in this state.

ਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥

उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥

The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥

इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥

What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥

परातमा बाच ॥

The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥

यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥

This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥

जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥

Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

ਬਿਯੋ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਯੋ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Dobiyo Na Dubai Sokhiyo Na Jaaei ॥

It is neither drowned nor soaked

ਕਟਿਯੋ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥

Kattiyo Na Kattai Na Baariyo Baraaei ॥

It can neither be chopped nor burnt.

ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ - ੧੨੯/੨ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥

Chhijai Na Naika Sata Sasatar Paata ॥

It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon

ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ - ੧੨੯/੩ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥

Jih Satar Mitar Nahee Jaata Paata ॥4॥129॥

It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129.

ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ - ੧੨੯/(੪) - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

Just now, InderjitS said:

Ok that's fine for someone who has reached this avastha, but for an ordinary person to suggest there is no difference in Mantar seems to confuse matters, we have to walk before running right?

Understood but everyone has bibek buddhi/soul- has that potential for atam updesh and to wake up, its addressed to bibek inside hoping there is paradigm shift and absorption of ultimate reality.

Here is another great shabad from absolute view point:

 

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ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १
Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1
Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:
 
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
 
ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥
Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
The actor stages the play,
 
ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥
Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
playing the many characters in different costumes;
 
ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥
Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
 
ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥
Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||
 
ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥
Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
 
ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||
 
ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥
Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.
Countless waves rise up from the water.
 
ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥
Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā.
Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.
 
ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥
Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā.
I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -
 
ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥
Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||
when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||
 
ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥
सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥
Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.
The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,
 
ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥
Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās.
but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.
 
ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥
Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār.
Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.
 
ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥
Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||
Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||
 
ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
ओहु अबिनासी बिनसत नाही ॥
Oh abẖināsī binsaṯ nāhī.
He is imperishable; He will never pass away.
 
ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
ना को आवै ना को जाही ॥
Nā ko āvai nā ko jāhī.
He does not come, and He does not go.
 
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥
गुरि पूरै हउमै मलु धोई ॥
Gur pūrai ha▫umai mal ḏẖo▫ī.
The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego.
 
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहु नानक मेरी परम गति होई ॥४॥१॥
Kaho Nānak merī param gaṯ ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1||

34 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

They state 'The words of the mantra are irrelevant'. Do they mean for aam janta or anyone following Dharam other than Sikhi. Sikhs have Gurmantar, then why focus on Kirtam nam. Is Gurmantar superior or more complete than these?

In the following pangti is Guru Sahib referencing the myriad names?

ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਜਾਉ ਜੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਵ ਹੈ ॥੪॥੨॥

He is speaking from Absolute point of view- pure aware being-Bhramgyan where there is no object or subject its beyond sargun-shabad-dhun. Gurbani also talks about this::

ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिनामु करता पुरखु गुरप्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯnām karṯā purakẖ gurparsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. By Guru's Grace:

ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
बावन अछर लोक त्रै सभु कछु इन ही माहि ॥
Bāvan acẖẖar lok ṯarai sabẖ kacẖẖ in hī māhi.
Through these fifty-two letters, the three worlds and all things are described.

ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥
Ė akẖar kẖir jāhige o▫e akẖar in mėh nāhi. ||1||
These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1||

ਜਹਾ ਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਅਛਰ ਆਵਾ ॥
जहा बोल तह अछर आवा ॥
Jahā bol ṯah acẖẖar āvā.
Wherever there is speech, there are letters.

ਜਹ ਅਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਮਨੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਵਾ ॥
जह अबोल तह मनु न रहावा ॥
Jah abol ṯah man na rahāvā.
Where there is no speech, there, the mind rests on nothing.

ਬੋਲ ਅਬੋਲ ਮਧਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
बोल अबोल मधि है सोई ॥
Bol abol maḏẖ hai so▫ī.
He is in both speech and silence.

ਜਸ ਓਹੁ ਹੈ ਤਸ ਲਖੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
जस ओहु है तस लखै न कोई ॥२॥
Jas oh hai ṯas lakẖai na ko▫ī. ||2||
No one can know Him as He is. ||2||

ਅਲਹ ਲਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਕਹਉ ਤ ਕੋ ਉਪਕਾਰ ॥
अलह लहउ तउ किआ कहउ कहउ त को उपकार ॥
Alah laha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫ā kaha▫o kaha▫o ṯa ko upkār.
If I come to know the Lord, what can I say; what good does it do to speak?

ਬਟਕ ਬੀਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥੩॥
बटक बीज महि रवि रहिओ जा को तीनि लोक बिसथार ॥३॥
Batak bīj mėh rav rahi▫o jā ko ṯīn lok bisthār. ||3||
He is contained in the seed of the banyan-tree, and yet, His expanse spreads across the three worlds. ||3||

 

 

I don't think he is giving credence to others (one over another) but rather he is pointing towards source of all. Substratum of all experience, everything- Sat(Eternal) Gur(Chit-Consciousness) Parsad (Bliss).

Here is sant mani singh ji talking about similar topic:

source: http://www.akalbungasahib.com/babaji.html under God

Just wanted to post Adyatam questions and answers by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale 2017 trip to toronto, they are deep answers as usual clears lot of doubts, give deep insight of gurbani and also into state of bhramgyan:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F02_Present_Day_Katha%2FBaba_Jagjit_Singh_(Harkhowal_wale)%2FDiscussions_Questions_and_Answers%2F2017

 

He wasn't sant to begin with. It's good he changed his title to bhai and showing to others he is living an authentic life, his assassination attempt   should be always condemn by everyone as there was no need to go that extreme to settle down differences. Assassination attempt breaked him inside but at the same time gave him lot of credibility, before people were curious now people are listening to him sympathetically as they say almost assassinated leader gains more credibility than dead one-history proves this.

It's unfortunate he sided with missionaries, all though from psychological point of view it make sense- when ego is under threat, it tries to seek sense of security from whoever it can. Missionaries were ready for him and capitalize.  I think lot of people who are commonly driven by ego would do the same, when ego is under threat, it goes in survival mechanism will try all kind of silly things to gain comfortable position again- real gurmat bibek buddhi goes haywire if its not checked in.

I think we are expecting too much from him, we have mentality putting everyone under pedestal than get disappointed if that person makes a u turn.

His whole saga seem it was almost as if he is part of divine play as most of us are, he was baited and gave in.

This is no different than jatts worshipping their ancestors and shaheeds and having jot thaal to invoke shaheed spirits(good spirits) during patt.  All are somewhat at the border line ritualistic as best. I agree they need to be educated to raise their surti from deity worship to all prevading Satguru- Pure True Consciousness/Awareness-Chetan saroop.